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Astraeos
22-11-2009, 22:59
I've been wondering about this for a while now. When I was toying around with ideas for a new race, one of my ideas was to make them as deadly in close combat as the Tau are at Shooting, but it occurred to me that such an army may already exist.
There are a lot of potential candidates in the WH40K range, so what army do you think is the most destructive, fiercest, and best at ripping their foes apart in bloody melee?

Bathawk
22-11-2009, 23:05
Chaos daemons easy

They are about as much the opposite of tau as you can get. heck just take some bloodletters, ws, strength and initiative of 5 on a charge, power weapons and an invulnerable save, what's not to love in close combat?

or you can have the slightly cheaper daemonettes 3 attacks, initiative of 6 ws 4, they're only st and toughness of a three, but they have rending claws and fleet, they're essentially a bunch of "speedsters"

and just like the tau have the kroot to handle they're lack of close combat ability, daemons have pink horrors to assist with thier normal lack of shooting

and I'll go even one better...in games of planetstrike daemons get to deepstrike and assault on the first turn!

BaloOrk
22-11-2009, 23:21
Chaos marines or orks.
They dont have the absolute best CC units(damage output), but they are troops, and that counts for alot.

Today i tried a full honoursquad with some relicblade, banner, chaplain, and master with hammer.... they ripped and thore through my opponent`s nurgle army....

Hit hard, and hit fast

DuskRaider
22-11-2009, 23:27
I voted Daemons, but I'd also throw in I think Orks are magnificent in CC. Most of the time, once Orks slam into your line and get the charge off, chances are you're screwed. Especially when it's Nobz hitting you, bad news man.

Daemons are hands-down the best CC army in the game, though. The trump all others, even nasty Nobz squads. Why is that? Because, there's no right way to kill them (unless you have Psy-Weapons and ignore their Inv saves, even then they'll probably hit you first). Each god-specific troop has it's own devastating finesse in CC, with Khorne units at the top of the list. Not only the troops, but look at their HQ, the Bloodthirster. I've seen a Bloodthirster tear through half of an opponent's army before, they're sickening.

theweck
22-11-2009, 23:28
The slugga boy is the single best assault troop per points spent in the game. At six points, you have a unit that swings 4 times per member on the charge. While only strength three, furious charge mitigates that shortcoming. WS 4 puts them at the same level or better than the vast majority of troops, and the ability to take squads of 30 mitigates the low initiative value. With a nob carrying a power claw at the head of the pack, you also have an answer to monstrous creatures and most vehicles.

All these factors combined with the fact that they are a troop choice makes the ork boy squad the best assault unit per point invested. Access to this unit, as well as the plethora of other exceptional specialist units in the ork list makes orks the best assault army in the game.

Dexter099
22-11-2009, 23:29
Easily Tyranids.

While Orks are good in cc, they're also more of a shooting + combat army than a combat army, like the rest of the armies out there. Tyranids rely less on shooting and more on combat.

DuskRaider
22-11-2009, 23:35
Tyranids? I'm sorry, but I don't see that.

LonelyPath
22-11-2009, 23:36
I had to vote for the Orks, I hate it when they assault me, at least with Daemons I can usually withstand the charge and survive another round or 2 of CC without having to worry to much. Nids are pretty nasty, but their poor army saves means that not that many seem to make it into combat with me.

guillimansknight
23-11-2009, 00:08
GK's are pretty good and they can outshoot every basic infantry unit as a bonus

good WS high strength can't get hit at long range and are very surviable

Ivellis
23-11-2009, 00:16
Orks are definitely the best from the shear number of attacks at WS4.

Anarnaxe
23-11-2009, 00:35
I tend to look at close combat units/armies like character types in a game, specifically Party RPGs.

For those who don't play those types of games, there are 2 very basic types for fighters, Tanks & Damage.
Tank types are heavily armoured, usually don't do a huge amount of damage, but it doesn't really matter as they tend to win out over time.
Damage types are the opposite, they do a lot of damage very quickly, but generally lack the armour to back them up.

I tend to play the slow game so Tanks tend to suit my style of play. So, honestly I think the best combat army are Chaos Marines (or at least they should be).

CKO
23-11-2009, 00:45
Orks, furious charge and nob bikers enough said.

Dexter099
23-11-2009, 00:46
I don't see what's makes Ork assault the best... sure they're good, but last one turn with some defensive unit and they're goners. Tyranids can simply pile on the bodies and have genestealers. I would even place Chaos Mairnes above the Orks, after the battles I've played with them.

Orks get massacred when they get charged by khorne zerks or charge Plague Marines. They're not that good.

The Laughing God
23-11-2009, 01:02
I voted daemons!
Not to much shooting in the army, but the little they have is powerful.

I find tyranids to be deadly in the shooting phase at about mid range.

DuskRaider
23-11-2009, 01:07
Orks WILL get massacred by Zerkers if the Zerkers get the charge. On the flipside, Orks WILL massacre Zerkers if they get the charge in. For their point cost, Ork Boyz are THE best CC unit in the game. Not only that, but when a group of 30 charge you, I don't care what you're using, they WILL drag you down.

In order to get a Genestealer unit to take out 30 Boyz you'd have to max out their numbers, give them a ton of upgrades, and by that point you've thrown so many points into a single unit that you've left the rest of your army lacking... While the Orks still have another 60+ Boyz waiting to charge into you, AND Nobz crashing into your lines. and if you're using Bugs, let's not forget Burnas, which will turn... Pretty much anything you field into a pile of cinders.

mightymconeshot
23-11-2009, 01:24
if we are talking fluff wise then stealers and brood lords. if we are talking gaming wise then probably demons

kaimarion
23-11-2009, 02:25
Not only that, but when a group of 30 charge you, I don't care what you're using, they WILL drag you down.


I think Mr Nightbringer and Mr godfex would care to disagree :D.

I voted daemons and orks just because I love them both equally lol.

aquilius
23-11-2009, 02:35
Daemons hands down. Orks are only dangerous in cc because they have shot you up already. Take away guns from Orks and suddenly they are easy.

The only way that daemons could be deadlier in cc is if they assualted off the deepstrike.

Cognitave
23-11-2009, 03:07
I voted for Orkz and Chaos Space Marines. It's all about support and who gets the charge.

CthulhuDalek
23-11-2009, 03:23
I voted Orks. Mainly for the reasons people stated above me. The other reason being that by the time they get to combat they will already have taken out a good proportion of your force, or seriously screwed with your game plan.

30 ork boys, sluggas OR shootas are both deadly in close combat, but it's the fact that they are so effective in close combat because of their close ranged shooting as well.

I know we shouldn't consider their shooting in making them a good close combat army, but the truth is, their shooting capabilities are better than any other close combat army. THey outshoot daemons which means they've already softened up the opponent before they get in. And you can take LOADS of orks.

However, I'm certainly hoping that nids make a comeback in their new 'dex...

Nids aren't the top because they currently rely too much on shooting and only a few of their units are good in hth(relatively speaking). They are not cost effective enough to compete with orks, daemons and to an extent even Chaos 4th ed.

Bathawk
23-11-2009, 03:37
Daemons hands down. Orks are only dangerous in cc because they have shot you up already. Take away guns from Orks and suddenly they are easy.

The only way that daemons could be deadlier in cc is if they assualted off the deepstrike.

which makes them very scary in planetstrike ;)

Hero adamite
23-11-2009, 03:39
Orks, they are barbaric creatues with all kinds of crude weapons and war machines, and a basic ork troop gets 3 attacks with the additional CCW. Basically there life is to charge into close combat and slaughter everyone who comes before them, this even includes there own kind sometimes.

toxic_wisdom
23-11-2009, 03:49
Best CC Army = Dark Eldar Wych Cults

01. Archite... easily one of the best close combat ICs in the game
02. Wych Weapons... negate +1 bonus for enemy additional ccw
03. Wyches having an invulnerable "dodge" save in close combat
04. High Initiative value keeps them attacking before the enemy in majority of cases
05. Agonisers wounding as Power Weapons without worrying about high Toughness targets
06. Raider transports ( open topped ) getting units into close combat rather easily
07. Horrorfex on Raiders can keep one enemy unit pinned while Wych units engage another
08. Combat Drugs to buff Wych units ( ignoring the attack first option... ughhh )

Epicenter
23-11-2009, 07:44
Easily Tyranids.


I think you are mistaking "should be" with "is"

Deetwo
23-11-2009, 07:51
Orks, Dark Eldar, Daemons
In that order :)

Daemons would be on top without the unfortunate side-effects of deep striking :(
Dark Eldar are super nasty in combat and they get there fast too.

Orks are just... Good at it. Even the shooty Orks are good in CC because they can just throw a bucket of dice at the enemy unit and come out on top that way.

MasterSparks
23-11-2009, 08:07
Daemons take the cake for most powerful close combateers on an individual basis without a doubt, in my opinion. A bunch of individuals is not quite an army though...

I've used an all-Slaanesh daemon army against my friends' Tyranids, Space Wolves and other such self-professed masters of close combat. A great, giant brawl always ensues. :skull:

Hypaspist
23-11-2009, 08:17
This is a game of dice, and usually, the more dice you throw in anger, the better your chances.

Orks throw an awful lot of of dice.

Filthy O'Bedlam
23-11-2009, 08:23
It's very very close between Orks, CSM, and Orks. Demons are just a straight up close combat army, orks can mob you to death, and CSM are versatile and suvivable. I think it will really come down to the player.

This might very well all change when we get the new Tyranid Codex next year.

Cheers, Filthy

Vaktathi
23-11-2009, 08:32
Currently? Orks followed by CSM's.

Orks for the reasons already explained above.

CSM's still have decent shooting in addition to awesome CC capabilities on their basic troops and especially on the very powerful Khorne Berzerker unit and cheap but powerful Terminators. In addition to this they have very accurate Deep Striking ability and plentiful short range special weapons (meltas/flamers) shooting ability to complement their CC emphasis very well. Space Wolves are similar but lack the wonderful Khorne Berzerkers and defilers to fully flesh it out, although I think as an overall army they may be a bit better.

Daemons have great CC units, but as an army just operate so awkwardly and so subject to the whims of the dice, and have to spend a turn sucking it and vulnerable to assault that I just have no idea how they can do amazingly well. I've never seen them perform spectacularly.

I'm expecting Nids will bring a new light into this debate come january/february/whenever as well.

DE CC is nothing special, especially with no consolidation into CC anymore, 5th ed really just pulled a lot of their CC teeth but made their shooting scarier, the Wyches just die too easily and can't hide anymore like they could and the Incubi are very "meh" in the current metagame. Eldar CC ability is ok, but not great, and highly reliant on a deathstar jetbike unit for something truly painful. Blood Angles really only have one decent CC unit and aren't anything special at all. Black Templars are wannabe's compared with SW's and CSM's, and Daemonhunters just don't have the numbers or flexibility to compete.

LKHERO
23-11-2009, 08:41
We're going to have to see what Blood Angels offer :)

laudarkul
23-11-2009, 08:50
Orks....They have it. Followed close by by a dedicated CC Dark Eldar army. But orks just have the number which allows them to crush the opposition.

Souleater
23-11-2009, 09:08
Currently Orks. Very cheap while at the same time hitting like a out of control dump truck through a crowded shopping centre.

it *should* be Nids but the stat nerfs and mechanic changes from 2nd to 3rd screwed that completely. Nids have IMO become more and more reliant on shooting ever since.

I am very much hoping that changes with the new codex.

AFnord
23-11-2009, 12:28
Orks are great in close combat... until they go up against something with many attacks and higher I, or if they get charged. Orks live on their charge, and if they don't get it, chances are that they will get slaughtered. Armies like CSM, CD & DE can be a real pain for a close combat oriented ork army to go up against, as they simply can out-fight orks. In fact, orks is a bit more of a hybrid army, in order for orks to be able to win against a good opponent, the ork player needs a fare bit of anti-light vehicle shooting (be it from lootas, big gunz, buggies, kopptas), and a fare bit of anti infantry shooting (shoota boyz, SAGs, looted wagons). This cuts back on their close combat abilities, as you need to spend so many points on shooting units in order for the ork army to actually work in a competitive environment.

Askari
23-11-2009, 12:41
Orks.

By sheer numbers of warriors and attacks.

Explained already.

And Chaos Space Marines.

For sheer toughness of warriors... and aforementioned lots of attacks.

The basic Chaos Marines gets 2 attacks in CC, even if charged. 3 on the charge, 4 with the Icon of Khorne. Scary thing is, this is still quite a shooty unit in the Chaos list, probably packing 2 Meltaguns and 8 Bolters.

Khorne Berserkers make this worse, with WS5 and Furious Charge. Slaanesh Marked marines strike first even against Marines. Daemon Princes are just plain nasty... whereas a Khornate Daemon Weapon wielder can get a fiendish 17 attacks a turn! Factor in more nastiness like 6 attacks from a Force Weapon wielder, full squads of I5 Lightning Claw Terminators and Infiltrating Chosen. It may not be as many hits as Orks, but they sure hurt more.

Pushkin
23-11-2009, 13:22
Hmm I understand what everyone is saying about orks boyz being awesome on the charge, but I really don’t think their THAT awesome. Notably their low initiative means they’ll strike last against most opponents. I think an equal unit of Khorne bezerkers could well beat that unit of 30 boyz even if they charge

30 Boyz (180pts) v 9 Bezerkers (189pts)

Bezerkers strike first (I4)
27 attacks hitting on a 3+
18 Hit, wound on a 4+
9 wound, armour save of 6+
1 save, 8 Ork casualties (rounding up)

22 Boyz left (are all of them within 2”?)
88 attacks hitting on a 4+
44 hit, wound on a 4+
22 wound armour save of 3+
15 save, 7 chaos casualties (rounding up)

Khorne Bezerkers win the combat! Blood for the Blood God!

The story is VERY different in the 9 Bezerkers charge! (36 attack, hit on a 3+, wound on a 3+ and a 6 + save = 13 casualties, only 17 Boyz left!)

Obviously this is going on averages and some dodgy rounding for the armour saves, but the fact is, that 30 ork boyz have about a 50% chance of beating 9 Bezerkers in combat when assaulting!

Inach
23-11-2009, 14:29
As army, Daemons. They are the most (successful) CC army around. The trick is to learn to work with them. They are rather hard to master, but with the right setup and units it can kill everything.

Orks are almost as destructible as Daemons but (I will get flamed for this) the army is far more forgiving.

Deetwo
23-11-2009, 14:34
Khorne Bezerkers win the combat! Blood for the Blood God!

And get left with two models versus 21 after resolution? :D Not gonna be looking good for the berserkers on the following turn :)
I'd hardly call that "winning" ;)

But these two are a competition of who gets to assault first anyway.. The one who does, will be left out on top. Sounds pretty even to me.

gwarsh41
23-11-2009, 15:18
I would say if you want a comparison to Tau, its chaos daemons. Orks seem more like guardsmen to me.

lachlin
23-11-2009, 15:43
Orks baby!!!

Nezalhualixtlan
23-11-2009, 17:04
I'm not surprised at the votes for Orks and Demons, both have excellent CC abilities. I'm very surprised at the lack of Tyranid votes though particularly compared to the Chaos Marines & Space Wolf votes, Tyranid CC is easily on par with Orks and Demons when biomorphed correctly and the correct list is fielded, they'll crush CSM and SW in CC assuming equal player skill in terms of list construction and tactical execution during the game. I know a lot of people who play Tyranids go for ranged shooters right now because after 5th Ed it put a lopsided emphasis on that over more CC oriented lists for the army, but Tyranid CC is still fierce and very competitive with both Orks and Demons - and likely to only become more so after the new codex update as the army rebalances a bit.

Deetwo
23-11-2009, 17:18
but Tyranid CC is still fierce and very competitive with both Orks and Demons

I would disagree with that. If for nothing else, than the fact that shooting with Nids at Orks or Daemons is far more destructive than their CC will ever be.
Tyranids just don't have enough dedicated and properly equipped CC available.

Hadafix
23-11-2009, 17:21
Regardless of what some may "think", I "know" that BT are the best CC army, followed by Orks and Daemons. My vote reflected this. :P

Codsticker
23-11-2009, 18:28
I voted Orks. The variety of ways that you can build an Ork assault Army that is still quite competitive surpasses that of any other Codex.

Archangel_Ruined
23-11-2009, 18:47
Orks. It's the versatility with the low costs. Daemons are a one trick pony by comparison, and whilst that makes them a better cc army on paper it's a slight disadvantage in game terms. Orks are harder to deal with as keeping them at arms length isn't the same ultra effective defence it is against daemons, or even stealer armies, so at some point running away will fail and then they'll swamp your lines anyway. Unless you're a marine army orks are a bloody nightmare.

SatireSphere
23-11-2009, 19:15
Orks WILL get massacred by Zerkers if the Zerkers get the charge. On the flipside, Orks WILL massacre Zerkers if they get the charge in. For their point cost, Ork Boyz are THE best CC unit in the game. Not only that, but when a group of 30 charge you, I don't care what you're using, they WILL drag you down.

My Lone Wolf with Chainfist and Storm Shield disagrees.

60 hit
30 wound
5 unsaved
2.5 get past feel no pain on average

With a little luck (and it's happened to me many times) he can survive the onslaught, especially if you deny them the charge.

Lordsaradain
23-11-2009, 19:34
Before rending was changed it was definetly 'nids. Now I'm not so sure.

Wolf Sgt Kirke
23-11-2009, 22:07
space wolves, but not charging - use a grey hunter gun line - move up to the enemy - into rapid fire range - flamer range ideally (two per ten man squad) - rapid fire and flame the unit in front of you - then sit and wait to get charged - counter charge - hae a GH with a power weapon and one with mark of the wulfen and see how the orks get on - the maths is a little like this
16 bolter shots hit on 3+
lets say 10 hit so 5 wound no saves
the two flamer take say 7 orks out
that leaves 17 orks, they get 4 attacks each on the charge so 68 attacks it think
the grey hunters get 3 attacks each and D6+1 for the wulfen - which rend! so 27+2/7 rends

the hit ratio is about the same as is the wounding but it all comes down to armour saves the GH will make more

I know people will say that the GH got to shoot and that this is about CC but you have to think realistically - not many units get into CC without getting shot to hell first! GH give you some good shooting and can bounce a charging unit no probs.

Ricken
23-11-2009, 22:16
I play Orks and just have to say that if the boyz get fire support from Lootas etc. they are really lethal in CC.
Alot of attacks and many of them hit.
If you want a CC army, the thing you have to think about is a delivery system.
How to get the units their to the target.
Trukks. Drop pod. Rhino. Whatever.

Jayden63
23-11-2009, 22:55
My Mech Space Wolves just got munched by Canis, TWC, and frensian wolves this weekend something fierce. 90% of all damage was done in HTH. I5 wolves and rending S5 TWC is just murder.

Legionary
23-11-2009, 23:25
Chaos Space Marines. Even their most basic trooper is more effective in melee than an ordinary loyalist Marine, and then when you consider Bezerkers...

hawo0313
24-11-2009, 00:14
Chaos daemons they are not the best ary that is based primarily at close combat they are the best cc units thier basic bloodletter is better in cc than a chaos marine and looking above this therefore makes them good. but the also have blaguebearers and daemonettes both respectively awesome in close combat.

I mean sure the orks may be more effective for points in close combat but if you look at it this army is the real definition of close combat army. Others are merely close combat orientated.

Corpse
24-11-2009, 02:37
I say orks, and various marine armies are the same, except the orks can take both mass shots, and hard shots equally point for point. (Pay 35-60 points per lascannon, it kills one ork, and that model is pretty much a waste doing that)

Which is why orks win out, with 30 models per power klaw being another primary factor.

Bathawk
24-11-2009, 04:45
Before rending was changed it was definetly 'nids. Now I'm not so sure.

what was rending like before?

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 05:26
what was rending like before?

Any to-hit roll of 6 was an automatic wound with no armor save allowed, and armor pen was an additional D6 not D3. Basically it mean throw as many attack dice out as possible, and leave the whole WS/S/T thing behind, and count how many 6's you could find and remove that many enemy models. It's a better now that this is on the to-wound roll instead of the to-hit roll.

Bathawk
24-11-2009, 06:20
hmm I don't know while I agree a d6 for armor penetration is a bit much, I do like the 6 on a to-hit wounding, instead of a to-hit roll, I just don't think "rending" is worth essentialy being 1/6th of a power weapon...the armor penetration is nice, but not something I would equip a character for

Deetwo
24-11-2009, 07:41
hmm I don't know while I agree a d6 for armor penetration is a bit much, I do like the 6 on a to-hit wounding, instead of a to-hit roll, I just don't think "rending" is worth essentialy being 1/6th of a power weapon...the armor penetration is nice, but not something I would equip a character for

In newer codexes rending is generally more of a neat bonus than a purpose for the unit.
Things like Slaanesh daemons and Thunderwolves have a lot of attacks to do damage with even if they don't roll any 6s to wound at all.

4th ed rending was far too powerful, the armor penetration was the lesser part of that anyway, except for assault cannons. (although I'm not sure rending is good enough now anymore..)

Scythe
24-11-2009, 08:30
Hmm I understand what everyone is saying about orks boyz being awesome on the charge, but I really don’t think their THAT awesome. Notably their low initiative means they’ll strike last against most opponents. I think an equal unit of Khorne bezerkers could well beat that unit of 30 boyz even if they charge

30 Boyz (180pts) v 9 Bezerkers (189pts)

Bezerkers strike first (I4)
27 attacks hitting on a 3+
18 Hit, wound on a 4+
9 wound, armour save of 6+
1 save, 8 Ork casualties (rounding up)

22 Boyz left (are all of them within 2”?)
88 attacks hitting on a 4+
44 hit, wound on a 4+
22 wound armour save of 3+
15 save, 7 chaos casualties (rounding up)

Khorne Bezerkers win the combat! Blood for the Blood God!

The story is VERY different in the 9 Bezerkers charge! (36 attack, hit on a 3+, wound on a 3+ and a 6 + save = 13 casualties, only 17 Boyz left!)

Obviously this is going on averages and some dodgy rounding for the armour saves, but the fact is, that 30 ork boyz have about a 50% chance of beating 9 Bezerkers in combat when assaulting!

Except that the Orks won't run due to special rules, and completely annihalate the 2 survivors next turn. Yay!

You should also probably add in a powerfist user on both sides. Won't make much difference for the Berzkers, but that Nob will probably add in an extra casualty or two.

horus666
24-11-2009, 09:41
Blood Angels are the best if played correctly

hawo0313
24-11-2009, 09:44
they can have the extra mobility due to the overcharged baals and more jump packs as well as the furisio and the DC but when compared to an army like daemons where nearly every unit was kitted out to be a killing machine in cc.

horus666
24-11-2009, 09:55
Dante gives the army Prefered Ememy, within 6 knocks down enemy WS, with Corbulo giving the army Furious Charge, jump packs for mobility, Land Raider blocking line of sight of shooters, thats tough CC

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 09:58
Dante gives the army Prefered Ememy, within 6 knocks down enemy WS, with Corbulo giving the army Furious Charge, jump packs for mobility, Land Raider blocking line of sight of shooters, thats tough CC

Most other SM armies are capable of bringing something like that to the field. I don't think you'd want to face Khorne Berzerkers with a Khorne lord wielding a daemon weapon with that.

Actually, you could probably get 90 kitted Boyz in 3 squads for what those characters and LR cost. my money would be on the Boyz every time.

horus666
24-11-2009, 10:45
Played it, beaten it

Askari
25-11-2009, 00:03
Played it, beaten it

Doesn't mean they're the best Close Combat army though.
Blood Angels, though slightly more assaulty than usual, still suffer the Space Marine flaw; Good at everything, brilliant at nothing.

Even Death Company don't hold a candle to the really dedicated CC units such as Berserkers, Ork Nobz, Wyches, Bloodcrushers, Hive Tyrants, Genestealers... etc.

Inach
25-11-2009, 00:10
Watching the poll going on, I can only concluse that people want their army to be CC specialist.

Although orcs are very good CC, CSM have some very good troops (and HQ's) and there are some specialist units in several armies... none of the armies, save daemons, is CC based. True, Tzeentch can shoot (and do it pretty well), but most armies (units) are focused on CC. Even the daemons only tank can CC very well. The troops, elites, HQ's and heavy's all have about the best CC units available. The trick is.. learn to make them work as a team!
IMO bloodcrushers / fiends / Bloodletters are the best point investments for cc specialists.

theDarkGeneral
25-11-2009, 05:04
Well, I play "the list", and hands down the best close combat army is Khorne Daemons!

Ever see 24 Bloodcrushers on the table? Backed by 32 Bloodletters? And either Daemon Princes w/Skulltaker or Bloodthirsters...

Funny enough, the not too often mentioned in this list, Tyranids is my bane! Preferred enemy and Implant Attacks wrecks my Daemons!

Great thing about the Bloodcrushers, the larger bases allows me to hit mutliple enemy units/tanks in close combat and really rack up the combat rez!

Scythe
25-11-2009, 06:53
Watching the poll going on, I can only concluse that people want their army to be CC specialist.

That is rather funny, considering the rest of your post and your avatar. ;)


Although orcs are very good CC, CSM have some very good troops (and HQ's) and there are some specialist units in several armies... none of the armies, save daemons, is CC based. True, Tzeentch can shoot (and do it pretty well), but most armies (units) are focused on CC. Even the daemons only tank can CC very well. The troops, elites, HQ's and heavy's all have about the best CC units available. The trick is.. learn to make them work as a team!
IMO bloodcrushers / fiends / Bloodletters are the best point investments for cc specialists.

First of all then, I voted Orks, but do not play them (my armies are Tyranids, who suffer from an outdated dex, IG, Tau and Necrons). The point here is not what an army is (or should be, in case of Tyranids) based on, but what it can be based on, and how much potential it has there. While Orks can have access to a lot more shooting than Daemons, they don't have to do that. It also doesn't make their close combat troops any less viable. If I added a unit to the Tau army with all 10s for stats, 5 pts/model, jump packs, power weapons and as a troops choice, Tau would become the best close combat army, regardless what the rest of their list looks like. In a perfect balanced game, an army excelling in one aspect shouldn't also have a huge impact in another aspect, but we all know that 40k is far from perfect.

Point is, 6 pts for a basic trooper with WS4, T4, A3/4 and furious charge is just about unbeatable efficiency wise. The seer amount of attacks that a unit of these can throw out, combined with the power claw to deal with though nasties, can grind almost anything to dust, for a very minor pts investment. And for the scary enemy stuff, you have got Nob bikers, who are arguably the best unit in the game at the moment due to rules loopholes. The fact that both of these units can possibly be taken as troops makes Orks the most efficient close combat army to me, regardless how the rest of their list looks like. While I won't deny the effectiveness of Daemons in assaults (especially if you have got the 'right' daemons selected for the job; eg bloodletters targetting heavy infantry, etc), they cannot match Ork points efficiency imho.

Alessander
25-11-2009, 07:07
daemons in planetstrike games as the attacker, but orks in every other game. being unable to assault when striking is a major hamper to daemons.

apparently the new Nids this january will make them the top combat army. so it'll be a toss-up between squelchy chomp, evil chomp or waaaaarghy chomp.

GrogDaTyrant
25-11-2009, 11:44
I don't buy into the 'Orks are the best CC army'. I'm a long time, die-hard Ork player, and personally I'd much rather have the old 3rd ed codex even without the Choppa rule. While sure the damage output of choppa/slugga boyz is retardedly undercosted now, they've become a unit of cannon-fodder that wins protracted combats through body-count and not actual effectiveness. This is especially true now that Orks have lost their ability to charge and swing at a decent Initiative value and are considered an 'Almost-Always-Strikes-Last' army. Nobs are an exception, and are definitely a power-house in CC. But they are also stupidly broken IMHO, due to how easy it is to abuse the WAC system with them. Personally, I'd love to see Orks get fast-tracked for a 'REAL' 5th ed codex so they can fix the sloppy proof-reading, clarify such issues as the Deathrolla, and balance Nobs.

It is true that a full 30-man Ork mob will hold out and cripple *most* non-super-elite units charging them (barring many exceptions). But here's 2 major reasons why I disagree:
1) An Ork mob left unmolested at 30-man is facing an imaginary opposing army that has no means of shooting or inflicting ranged damage to the unit. Units of 20± don't hold out as well when charged against such units as Berzerkers. Seriously, soften them up before charging your dedicated CC badasses in. And make sure it's not a fragile death-star unit of 5-models, too.
2) Initiative is STILL excessively important in 5th ed, far beyond what it should be. With a crap-tastic I of 2, Furious Charge becomes half-effective and only really gives the Orks +1 Str. Anything that I-3 will actually really matter against, shouldn't be in CC in the first place. But besides almost-always-striking-last, there comes the problem with fleeing/pursuing. Ork boy units only manage to escape from combat, or catch fleeing units, in the rarest of circumstances. I've lost count of how often the stupidly biased iniaitive roll-off has been my bane in a game. Whether it's trying to keep a Beakie squad locked in combat after they voluntarily fall back, or watching as an above half-strength unit is cut down while attempting to break after loosing combat by 1 or 2. It also makes the Hit-and-Run on the Deathkoptas ineffective 66% of the time (why they have it now, is beyond me...).


Personally, I'd much prefer Shootas currently due to their ungodly versatility at the loss of 1 meager attack in CC. What they can't outshoot, they can out-combat. And vice-versa. And statistically speaking they out-shoot beakies or grey hunters on a point for point basis. Sluggas/Choppas on the other hand, are a 2 dimensional unit that is as subtle and deceptive as a sledge-hammer. And what they can't best in CC... they have no options against.

Now granted, I'm not a fan of Phil Kelly's work on the Ork codex. Some things were good (KFF, Kanz, variety of list design, etc.). But a lot of it is pretty bad (like Zzap Guns, Glory Hogs, or the requirement for a sub-par named HQ to run a Biker gang). And I didn't even touch upon the Fearless problem of 'Randomly Falling Over Dead' (a.k.a. 'No Retreat!).

My vote currently goes to Nids due to Stealers, Preferred Enemy, and Feeder Tendrils being so laughably inexpensive. But their monsters and many of their other units are lacking quite a bit currently. The new codex is almost assuredly going to deal with that.

Pushkin
25-11-2009, 15:37
I'm inclined to agree with GrogDa Tyrant. Orks are good but they're not great and the mob of 30 boyz with choppas and sluggas are very unversitile.

Plus another factor is that if you want to take 30 boyz they're goning to be slogging along on foot. Battlewagons only hold 20! And if you want to take 20 boyz and a battlewagon its gonna cost you a Heavy support slot, because you can't take a battlewagon as a dedicated transport!

I'm not saying orks are a bad army, they're good, they're very good! but they're not some unbeatable close combat army. Also i don't think a mob of 30 boyz footslogging it towards an army of marines/IG is gonna last too long in the enemy shooting phase!

MVBrandt
25-11-2009, 16:02
Demons aren't really close, b/c they cede the initiative by virtue of deep strike. Fatecrusher and other builds are hella poor at the truly competitive level, and I always scratch my head when I hear someone blather on about how great Demons are ... not a build out there has ever even phased me much. Selecting "demons" as the answer is theorycraft at best ... sure some of their units are wonderful in combat when they get the charge off properly w/out getting gunned down or simply outmaneuvered, buuut ... yeah ... not in the real world.

That said, Orks are easy here as the answer for the moment (pending new Nid book).

6 point model that's often fearless, throws 4 ws4 s4 attacks on the charge and is T4? Yeah ... Plus the nature of Ork waaagh and transports means that unlike the crappily designed demons, they control the initiative of when to charge, as opposed to dropping down and getting shot at outside of a transport no matter how clever they are.


Edit: To the above poster, you can take 3 nobz w/ a battlewagon, and on turn 1 hop them out and the boyz in. Well-built ork lists are hurting in kill points either way, it's not a huge deal to have those nobz take cover somewhere or hop in an empty transport at first opportunity. I don't know why more people don't do this, as KFF / mass of vehicles makes it simple to keep that squad of 20 boyz safe on turn 1 if you aren't going first.