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hvymtl3172
23-11-2009, 01:23
I have revamped my list for an all mounted / Fast moving army.

Core:
5 Warhounds (30)

10 Horsemen FC with spears, light armour and shields (190)

5 Horsemen FC with flails and shields (to act as a detachment for above)(110)

5 Horsemen FC with throwing axes and shields (Flanker)(110)

Special:

5 Knights FC (250)

5 Knights FC (250)

5 Knights FC (250)

Rare:

4 Swawn with Mark of Khorne (300)

Heroes:

3 Level 1 Sorcerers with Steeds (303) (long range Attack)

General:

1 Level 2 (Tzeentch) with Daemonic Mount and Enchanted Shield (185)

Just wanted to see how it compares. It is meant to move fast and get stuck in before the opponent can do damage.

blackjack
23-11-2009, 14:48
Core:
5 Warhounds (30)

You need far more hounds 2-3 units

10 Horsemen FC with spears, light armour and shields (190)

NEVER give horse men armor and shields it makes them not fast cav and being fast cav is the best thing about them. If you want knights buy Knights, we have the best heavy cav in the game already.

5 Horsemen FC with flails and shields (to act as a detachment for above)(110)
Why are you using shields instead of light armor? Flails are two handed weapons you know, you can't use a shield in cc with this setup, for exactly the same cost you could have light armor that works in cc and as range.

5 Horsemen FC with throwing axes and shields (Flanker)(110)
This is ok, but you will find 5 bs 3 axes acomplish very little. Generally you are better off with flails and light armor

Lastly full command is a complete waste on all the above units, you will be giving 100vps for banners away with each one when they break from combat, which they will. Musicians are the only command elment worth considering on light cav.


Special:

5 Knights FC (250)

5 Knights FC (250)

5 Knights FC (250)

Why full command? I personally would drop command and get an extra knight in each unit. 6 wide means every knight can engadge a min 100mm wide block.

Rare:

4 Swawn with Mark of Khorne (300)
Whas is Swawn? A shagooth? Can't comment if I don't know what it is.

Heroes:

3 Level 1 Sorcerers with Steeds (303) (long range Attack)
Use all the points saved from dropping command on everything above to make these guys mark of nurgle make two of them level 2 and give one the power familar, so you can spam bobos and cast fleshy abundance.

General:

1 Level 2 (Tzeentch) with Daemonic Mount and Enchanted Shield (185)

Pretty much ok, just make him mark of nurgle for more bobos.

Jind_Singh
23-11-2009, 16:37
Dude - waaay too many command groups in the above!!!

1) Chaos Warrior Knights - The horses on avg hit on 3's and wound on 3's. The actual Knights have 11 attacks (Assuming we have a champ) and they hit on 3's and wound on 2's - thats 16 attacks! Knights should hit 9 times, and kill at least 6 on their own, the horse are gravy. Even against a fully ranked unit with max combat res of +5 your still ahead of the game. OK, maybe you could get a musician if you really needed but the standard is overkill. And as the game goes on and you start losing models the standard can be captured - belive me, my 30 Night Goblins charged 3 mounted Knights with a standard and 2 turns later it was mine!

2) Light Cav horseman - ok I can see you'd like a unit of 10 to act as a distraction but by adding the extra armour they still only have a 4+ save AND lose their fast cav role!
I would have multiple units of 6 armed with combination of spears/throwing axes - str 4 throwing weapons pretty much always hitting on 4's! Not too shabby! Throwing axes are great, you hit gobllin fantics on 5's and wound them on 3's - poof, dead fanatic!! You use them pull the enemy out of posistion, lure them away from the Knights who can flank charge them.

3) Warhounds - 1 unit? Nah, you need maybe at LEAST 3 units.

Drop the command groups and save yourself a whole bunch of points!

4) 4 Chaos Spwan....mmmm I don't know, they dont really sit well in the mounted army. I'd say maybe no and look at warshrines - at least they are chariot shaped! I would save the rare slots and either throw in a giant to act as a bullet magnet for the enemy (and cheap too!), and he has a 6" base move so he's plenty fast enough to keep up with the troops. Actually now that I mentioned it the Giant is WAY better! He will be shot at - but this means the fast cav/Knights have more chances of being left alone, and if the enemy DOESNT shoot the giant...well now you got an angry giant running at the enemy! :D:D:D YES! Excellent!
And he is cheaper than 4 spawn so you can use the points to upgrade other units - all maraduer horseman should have mark of slaanesh as they are immune to fear, panic, etc - invaluable!

Hope this helps

Jind_Singh
23-11-2009, 16:38
OH as for your lords - a level 4 lord marked with Tzeentch and a level 2 do an amazing job with the right magic items. Or have them all Tzeentch - I know people like Nurgle but if you ever get the Gateway spell.......

Orangecoke
23-11-2009, 17:12
I'm reading this thread with interest since I love the idea of a cavalry based force. Are you guys basically saying no command for any of these units?

MTUCache
23-11-2009, 17:59
I'm reading this thread with interest since I love the idea of a cavalry based force. Are you guys basically saying no command for any of these units?

Basically everyone says musicians only. Standards are a waste of VPs generally, as you're just giving away VPs for very little benefit. Champions like-wise are a waste of points because they're expensive.

The all-cav WoC list is basically a one-trick pony, and without a L4 w/Gateway, it's close to a no-trick pony.

Dogs are a must. Three units minimum, four would probably be better.
Horsemen should be minimum sized, musicians only. Flails/LA is generally the best choice, along with either the MoS or MoK. I like a mix of both, maybe two each.
Knights are great, as long as you know what to point them at and how to screen them. Again, mark appropriately, either MoN or MoK. Ensorceled Blades always. Two units is generally the most I'd recommend.

Character selection in this army is pretty vanilla. The most competitive build right now seems to be a L4(MoT)on-disk, 2xL2(MoT) (disks/horses), and some other character (either another caster, a BSB, or even a BSB w/book). Take your choice on magic items, but the Puppet and scrolls is probably all you really need. All you're really looking for is a way to cast Gateway as often as possible and get off a couple of magic-missiles per turn. They'll do decently in combat against units or lowly heroes, but you don't want them getting into any monsters or lords.

That setup will get you upwards of about 1700-1800 points.

Chaff to add in from there could range from Spawns to Warshrines to Dragon Ogres. I think the Warshrine fits the theme the best, but DROgres are probably the best. I'd love to see some multiple troll-units (as the EotG rolls are insanely good when they regen), but without Throgg they require a bit more babysitting than a L4 on disk can give them. I've looked at putting together a mostly Horsemen/Troll list with a combat lord, but without the offensive magic of those 10+PD (which takes the place of warmachines/shooting) you lack the tools to take down a lot of things.

I'd love to see some other competitive WoC builds come out, but for the time being it seems as if this is what most everyone is playing.

Jind_Singh
23-11-2009, 18:01
Well I am - and so do a lot of my WoC buddies who run mounted armies.
Problem is the light cav dont have the resliance to keep their standards in battle, and the heavy cav kill so much they get away with it!
Musicans are a must for all fast cav units, I like it for my warriors too but depends on points. Unit champions are debatable as it all depends on wether the unit has a hero/lord I want to protect.
With any cav army (be it Empire, WoC, Brets) you need more than your fair share of fast cav - ideally maxing out as much fast cav as you can - you need them to bait units, flank charge, flush out fanatics, etc - all cav armies are as easy to use as you'd 1st think!!!

blackjack
23-11-2009, 18:25
I am playing an all cav WOC army now with no offenceive magic. (khorne theme).

It's a bit of a test of the opponents skill level. Inexperianced/bad players get crushed as the list very very hitty. Exerianced/good players simply redirect, march block and out flank it for an easy win.

Orangecoke
23-11-2009, 18:59
This is great info. Sorry to hear it's a bit "generic" - I just happen to like these models the most :D

blackjack
23-11-2009, 20:09
In a WOC army I feel the cav list is the coolest build as well. It is just tactically constrained.

MTUCache
23-11-2009, 20:15
In a WOC army I feel the cav list is the coolest build as well. It is just tactically constrained.

I think it just emphasizes all the stuff about WoC that were good to begin with. When you're picking between a block of Warriors and a unit of Knights (which moves twice as fast), they've both got essentially the same job. One of them is infinitely cooler than the other. Likewise with Marauders. Mixing cav and infantry doesn't make a whole lot of sense when the infantry are basically just slower, less-armored versions that aren't cheap enough to make up for their handicaps.

The other units in the list are either gimped (Forsaken) or are just sprinkles to put on top of your Knight sundae (monsters).

Once you've picked your characters and you've gone with cav over infantry, there really isn't that much variety left to choose from. That's nobody's fault really, the list is just designed that way. Nobody complains that all Dwarf lists look the same (well, they do, but they accept it)... that's just the way they're supposed to be built.

blackjack
23-11-2009, 20:18
Tactically I would love it if WOC had any decent shooting. Not being able to shoot redirectors and baiters is the bane of a WOC cav list. Even Britonians get pesant bowmen.

The closest we get is our magic. which is why every competitive list has a mage lord and 1 - 3 sorcs.

MTUCache
23-11-2009, 20:34
...Even Britonians get pesant bowmen...

Throwing axes and spears don't do much, but they're at least equal to the mounted yeomen. :p

GWItheUltimate
23-11-2009, 20:38
I disagree on no banner for Chaos Knights...

1) 20 pts for +1 Combat Resolution is quite cheap.
2) Yes, theorically, they rape (in practice too), but you always need maximum combat resolution to reduce the probability of the facing unit to actually stay, you want to break it on charge badly, and overrun to wipe the field.
3) It's not like they're ALWAYS gonna charge. There will be opponents that can actually have the charge and do some damage on them. Rarely, they will break them but still... It's all about combat resolution and having a Banner on such tought unit (for 20pts) is unvaluable while you're getting charged, because it could make the difference between having them break or making the opponent break.
4) You're opponent have to either kill them all of make them break to get the 100VPs... which is not easy at all with T4 and 1+ saves.

Just my opinion... I take Musician + Banner on Chaos Knights, but no champion, 20pts for 1 attack sucks bad.

TheGuardian170
24-11-2009, 02:14
ok first of all You CANNOT give an Enchanted Shield to the Sorcerer. Its illegal because you cannot give him a mundane shield you cannot give him a magic one. Nearly got me DQ.

Secondly I agree with giving Banners to the Knights you will probably need the combat res but NO Champs to many points for +1 attack.

Go with Flails on the horsemen don't do Axe's because well Chaos suck at shooting don't try to be good at it lol go with your strengths... hitting people lol.

Lastly, I would try to find room for a Lord caster or not just try to find room.

Thats my 2 Cents but get rid of the Enchanted Shield on the caster as it's illegal.

Cheers,

Guardian

GWItheUltimate
24-11-2009, 03:43
Chaos Sorcerer can have a magic shield as per their army book, you're wrong.

Mindshred
24-11-2009, 11:35
Chaos Sorcerer can have a magic shield as per their army book, you're wrong.


This is also clarified in the FAQ. Shields are A-OK.

Eta
24-11-2009, 12:41
Champions aren't a bad idea when you put your sorcerers in the knights. They can do the challenge work and keep the sorcerers away from nasty characters (at least for one combat round which can be enough). I agree that FC is a waste on marauder horsemen, musicians will do.

Greetings
Eta

TheGuardian170
24-11-2009, 22:44
yup sorry about that, I thought I remembered that in the FAQ when the judge told me I couldn't but I also didn't have a print off of it. Sorry about that, and thanks for bringing it to my attention guys! I feel like a noob...

hvymtl3172
28-11-2009, 00:05
Alright, thanks for the critique from everyone. I believe in FC for all units since i do not take a BSB for a 2000 pt game. Plus I like the look and feel of the army ranked up on the board. Remember this is fantasy and its a game of fun. Here is another take on my list from your comments.

New List

Core:

5 Warhounds (30)

10 Horsemen FC with Spears and Shields (180)

5 Horsemen FC with Flails and Light Armour (110)

5 Horsemen FC and shields (100)

Special:

5 Knights FC (250)

5 Knights FC (250)

5 Knights FC (250)

Rare:

4 Spawn mark of Khorne (300)

Heroes:

Sorcerer Level 2 with Mark of Tzeentch and enchanted shield on Daemonic Beast along with Dispel Scroll (230)

Daemon Prince (300)

Rawne
28-11-2009, 19:44
still not enough warhounds if you ask me, and the unit of 5horseman fc and shields, not sure about those, mayb drop those for getting the few more units of hounds you need

Eta
29-11-2009, 09:02
still not enough warhounds if you ask me, and the unit of 5horseman fc and shields, not sure about those, mayb drop those for getting the few more units of hounds you need

He cannot do this, the hounds do not count against the min core requirements. However, I would change the setup of the last horsemen unit. Drop the standard, champion and shields and add throwing axes. Use them as a harassing unit to take away ranks or hunt lone sorcerers.

The naked Daemon Prince does not make any sense to me, how do you plan to use him? In the moment, all I can see him doing is attacking warmachine crews and scare away skirmishers and light cavalry. These tasks can be fulfilled by an exalted hero of Tzeentch on a disc with the Golden Eye of Tzeentch, shield, Sword of Might and Bloodcurling Roar equally good or even better with the added benefit that you can add another three units of five chaos hounds.

Greetings
Eta

Rawne
29-11-2009, 14:13
well ok, drop a spawn and get the hounds instead, unless part of your battle plan means you require all 4 of them, could get 2 or 3 units of hounds for droppin 1 spawn

hvymtl3172
29-11-2009, 19:52
OK, sat down and looked at list again. Don't need 4 Spawn, so am going with 3. This allows extra points to be spent on the Prince.

New List

Core:

5 Warhounds (30)

10 Horsemen FC with Spears and Shields (180)

5 Horsemen FC with Flails and Light Armour (110)

5 Horsemen FC with Shields (100)

Special:

5 Knights FC (250)

5 Knights FC (250)

5 Knights FC (250)

Rare:

3 Spawn with Mark of Khorne (225)

Heroes:

1 Sorcerer Level 2 with Enchanted Shield and Daemonic Beast (185)

1 Daemon Prince Mark of Tzeentch Level 2 with Bloodcurdling Roar (420)

This equals to 2000 points. This list is more in tune with what I have envisioned for my battle line.

Rosstifer
30-11-2009, 23:23
I like the FC on everything because personally I despise min/maxing. Too me it goes against the feel of the game. Plus a Champion is 1 more chance to kill something, or a challenge, and Standard Bearers are great for magic standards (My knights are usually MON, FC, Banner of Rage)