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View Full Version : Couple more Skaven questions (stormbanner...)



Killboss
23-11-2009, 06:20
Ok, so i've read around, and, i've read something interedting that i think requiers a new thread. What i read was, besically put, our warpstone weapons count as magical (no duh...) and as so, they are not affected by the stormbanner... This confuses me.... Can i have some feedback on this?

Also, the poison attacks for the gutter runners, would it affect the throwing stars?

Now, last question, the Abomination, (in regards tp too horrible to die) do you think it means that if any of its wond are lost to flaming attacks it doesn't get the too horible to die chart roll?

Thanks for any feedback.

KayazyAssassin
23-11-2009, 06:33
for the abomination the too horrible to die rule does specify any of its wounds so i think so
for the gutter runners it isnt specific so maybe but idk
for the storm banner it specifies all non magical so if the warpstone is magical then they are not affected

Aljoman
23-11-2009, 06:40
The storm banner still makes magical ranged attacks that roll to hit take a penalty.

Things that are affected: all shooting that uses a BS, all non magical shooting that doesn't roll to hit.

Things that are not affected: all magical shooting that does not roll to hit.

Killboss
23-11-2009, 06:50
So, stuff like warpmuskets would be afected, where as Warpfire throwers wouldn't?

Aljoman
23-11-2009, 06:55
Correct. You sir, get a cookie.

Killboss
23-11-2009, 07:00
Yay!!! Cookie! And even a right answer in the process

Bodysnatcher
23-11-2009, 07:50
Wouldn't the warpfire throwers need a 4+ to fire?

dopacelat
23-11-2009, 07:53
Hellpit Abomination:
The wording is "If any of the Hell Pit Abomination's Wounds were lost to Flaming Attacks the beast is dead and no roll on the chart is allowed"

Gutter Runners:
Yes, their throwing stars get poisoned attacks when you give them the poison upgrade. The wording is "Upgrade to poisoned attacks" and has no restrictions against any of the available mundane weapons.

dopacelat
23-11-2009, 07:57
Wouldn't the warpfire throwers need a 4+ to fire?

The wording is: "All non-magical missles that don't use BS to hit their target need to roll a 4+ on a D6 before they can fire."

A Warpfire Thrower is a 'Warpstone Weapon'.
The warpstone weapon rule is: "Attacks from weapons with this special rule count as magical."

Atrahasis
23-11-2009, 15:01
Gutter Runners:
Yes, their throwing stars get poisoned attacks when you give them the poison upgrade. The wording is "Upgrade to poisoned attacks" and has no restrictions against any of the available mundane weapons.

That's not how poisoned attacks work; the entry must specify which attacks are poisoned. Since the entry doesn't specify, it's entirely unclear which attacks get the rule.

JonnyTHM
23-11-2009, 18:01
I'm going to suggest that a strong RAW argument could be made for only close combat attacks being granted poison by the upgrade, specifically because "poisoned attacks" has been given a specific meaning by the entry in the scavenge pile.

Bodysnatcher
23-11-2009, 22:03
The wording is: "All non-magical missles that don't use BS to hit their target need to roll a 4+ on a D6 before they can fire."

A Warpfire Thrower is a 'Warpstone Weapon'.
The warpstone weapon rule is: "Attacks from weapons with this special rule count as magical."

Does that make them magic missiles? Magic missiles being a subclass of spell rather than bolting magical to conventional shootin'.

dopacelat
24-11-2009, 02:42
That's not how poisoned attacks work; the entry must specify which attacks are poisoned. Since the entry doesn't specify, it's entirely unclear which attacks get the rule.
Could you please quote where it says that the poison attack special rule must indicate which attacks are poisoned?


Does that make them magic missiles? Magic missiles being a subclass of spell rather than bolting magical to conventional shootin'.

I wouldn't think so:
The reason why warpstone weapons are considered magical is because they involve warpstone in some manner - ammunition, weapon parts etc.
They are still considered to be missile weapons that operate in the shooting phase, and may be used by non-wizards.

I agree though; the wording 'non-magical missiles' is a bit off-putting in terms of making a clear distinction between magic missile spells and missile attacks that happen to be magical.


I'm going to suggest that a strong RAW argument could be made for only close combat attacks being granted poison by the upgrade, specifically because "poisoned attacks" has been given a specific meaning by the entry in the scavenge pile.

Quite possibly. I'll hope to respond to this later when I have access to my book.

Considerations for poisoned throwing stars:
Skaven 6th ed. had Gutter Runners purchasing their throwing stars separately, and subsequently it had separate upgrades for giving poisoned attacks to hand weapons (2 points), and poisoned attacks to throwing stars (1 point).

If my memory serves correctly, the new Gutter Runners come with throwing stars already, and the ability to 'upgrade to poisoned attacks' is 5 points.

Admittedly, this doesn't actually prove anything.

Briohmar
24-11-2009, 04:21
However, Manbane is a kind of poison, and it works on both handweapons and throwing stars. I would therefore say poison attacks means all attacks, not just CC.

Killboss
24-11-2009, 06:50
Ok, so to recap:
Hellpit abom question: Answered.
Gutter Runner question: Undecided
And Stormbanner question: Most likely yes, however through GW vaugness, not entierly certain?

WLBjork
24-11-2009, 08:09
Does that make them magic missiles? Magic missiles being a subclass of spell rather than bolting magical to conventional shootin'.

It's a difficult one to describe.

However, a couple of second's consideration would reveal that very few (if any spells) are affected by Stormbanner, and Magic Missile spells never are, therefore the text cannot be refering to the Magic Missile spell class.

Atrahasis
24-11-2009, 10:36
Could you please quote where it says that the poison attack special rule must indicate which attacks are poisoned?

"A warrior with poisoned attacks will wound his target automatically if he scores a 6 when rolling to hit in either the the shooting or close combat phases, or sometimes both (see the model's entry in its Army book for more details)." --BRB95

There are three possibilities available - poison in combat, poison in shooting, or poison in both. Since the poison rule says that the AB-entry will give details, and the AB-entry in question doesn't, we cannot know which of the 3 options is the correct one.

Kalandros
24-11-2009, 12:11
However, Manbane is a kind of poison, and it works on both handweapons and throwing stars. I would therefore say poison attacks means all attacks, not just CC.

No, Druchii Assassin's only get Poisoned Attacks on their Hand Weapons and Handbow, Manbane Poison (losing poisoned attacks) gives you this poison on all weapons.
If you take Rending Stars and none of the special Toxins, then you still only have Poisoned Attacks on your Hand Weapons, not on your Rending Stars.

Why? Because its written as such in the dark elf book!
Can't start making up rules for Skaven poisoned attacks just because of how you 'think' it should work.

dopacelat
24-11-2009, 12:22
"A warrior with poisoned attacks will wound his target automatically if he scores a 6 when rolling to hit in either the the shooting or close combat phases, or sometimes both (see the model's entry in its Army book for more details)." --BRB95

There are three possibilities available - poison in combat, poison in shooting, or poison in both. Since the poison rule says that the AB-entry will give details, and the AB-entry in question doesn't, we cannot know which of the 3 options is the correct one.

This still doesn't say the entry 'must' or 'will' give details, it just says to look there for more details.

No specific details are forthcoming, so we use the information provided:
1. The wording on the upgrade is "Upgrade to Poisoned Attacks'
2. The attacks a Gutter Runner can make occur within the shooting phase with throwing stars and in the close combat phase with hand weapons.
3. Poisoned Attacks are a legal upgrade for both the shooting phase and the close combat phase for those weapons.

RMHaggis
24-11-2009, 18:03
on another query, probably me being stupid as usual

the warp ligntining cannon says it fires as a cannon with the following exeptions etc.....

but dosent specify which dice you use to determine the strength i have assumed its the first dice, but if this is the case do you still add the distance to your guessed range as well as using it to determine the strength

nosferatu1001
24-11-2009, 18:22
It was the distance on the first dice - it deos specify in the book, just not very clearly....

RMHaggis
24-11-2009, 18:27
right so with the first dice result you:

a: add that to your guess
b: use the value for the strength of the shot?

nosferatu1001
24-11-2009, 19:07
From memory yes - so you really want to land 8 inches away and hope....