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View Full Version : Am I crazy, or do LotD suck? Help me understand.



owen matthew
23-11-2009, 20:56
I don't play marines, but the new models are so nice it got me doing some research. I was thinking a themed army built around a few LotD squads, but I do not think I could do it in good conscience.

They are almost twice the cost of Tacs, with nearly the same priced options, and extra A, and the ability to deepstrike with an InvS? No wonder I have never seen these things in a game. Twice the cost!!! A little less than twice the cost of 10 tacs deepstriking in a d-pod!!!! Who would not rather have two of those tac squads instead of 1 LotD????

Am I crazy? Am I missing something? Somebody please tell me the secret? Are these guys essentially the same as the Necron Pariah to the Necron Codex (as rediculous as those are they still seem better to me in comparison!)!?

Thanks!

Necro Angelo
23-11-2009, 21:04
Am I crazy? Am I missing something? Somebody please tell me the secret? Are these guys essentially the same as the Necron Pariah to the Necron Codex (as rediculous as those are they still seem better to me in comparison!)!?

Thanks!

probably. But 3+ inv is quite good.

Nakor
23-11-2009, 21:10
Yes not really worth it, there are more effective options out there. Your paying for the 3++ on each model however so yeah, thats where the cost is going. Can be usefull i guess.

Count de Monet
23-11-2009, 21:12
You're not crazy. At least not because of this. ;)

They don't suck necessarily, but are overpriced for what you get considering the other options. In effect they are very pricey marines who die just as fast to bolter fire.

They can deepstrike, and can even reroll the scatter. Which would seem like a fantastic ability in a book that didn't have cheap drop pods available to many units, locator beacons and such.

They can move and fire heavy weapons, like a multimelta. Would seem more impressive if you didn't have things like dreads that can also do so, and can also arrive safely via pod.

Invulnerable save - would seem more impressive if stormshield termies weren't 2+/3++.

If you're looking for a unit to fulfill a particular task you can probably find a cheaper alternative. If you're looking for something that could be useful in a number of situations and is a bit different, they could be good. And there are some situations where they would be better than the other options, like if you want a unit to drop down into the middle of an IG army next to a mystic-equipped inquisitor and not worry too much about getting shot with a Demolisher and still be able to melta/multimelta it right back, they could be just what the Chapter Master ordered.

owen matthew
23-11-2009, 21:29
Count, you have said everything I have thought myself. so I am going to pass my judgement at this point and go ahead with the suck scenario. No offense to you, you were very well spoken. It is my opinion entirely.

I know they cannot deepstrike, but thousand sons seem much better than the LotD for the points and abilities to me, to be honest, a LotD model proxied in for a thousand sons army could work very well... hmmm.

primarch16
23-11-2009, 21:44
It's not that they suck, it's just they are poor in comparison to TH SH terminators, who are invincible and very Killy

incarna
23-11-2009, 21:51
Youíre not crazy at all. Iíve played against LotD in a couple games and they SEVERELY underperformed for their cost. Had I been my opponent, I would have happily traded them in for nearly anything else in the codex.

The problem as I see it is that a 3+ invulnerable is just a 3+ save that falls to volume firepower just the same as anything else.

Hurray for you! You can save vs that melta, plasma, lascannon, missile launcher, ordinance wound and your buddies canít. All that means is your opponent will just focus fire your squads that CANíT save against those attacks and pour anti-infantry volume firepower into the LotD squad.

Epicenter
23-11-2009, 22:24
If you read their fluff, you get the impression they were supposed to have AP1 or AP2 bolters. However, that would have made them the Emperor's Own Thousand Sons so I figure that was dropped (not that anyone plays 1k Sons for the exact reasons being discussed here), but someone forgot to reduce their price.

owen matthew
23-11-2009, 23:24
If you read their fluff, you get the impression they were supposed to have AP1 or AP2 bolters. However, that would have made them the Emperor's Own Thousand Sons so I figure that was dropped (not that anyone plays 1k Sons for the exact reasons being discussed here), but someone forgot to reduce their price.


That is about right where I was when I read the fluff last night. I just kept reading over the part that described their awesome abilities, and looking back over at the normal bolter on their list and scratching my head. Then I saw the Slow and Purposeful, and thought that little nerf to get the max range out of the bolter was so off the mark it fit with the whole failed concept nicely. They could have just been given storm bolters or that profile. Still would have been underwhelming, but meh, you cannot lose them all!;)

Corpse
24-11-2009, 03:22
I can say some redeeming things about them.

1. They have 2 melee attacks base, might as well be a normal marine with a CCW+Pistol.

2. Deep strike marines with reroll scatter dice, able to hammer down bolters with great effectiveness if you use their bolters (and you should) with a heavy weapon that also fires with them.

3. The inv save allows you to rely on their save when you take them. Take 3 wounds per model to fail on average and you can rely on that when you write down they are being taken in your list. Great for countering harlequins and genestealers (A bane for even terminators).

4. Suggested take is a plasma gun with a heavy bolter or plasma cannon at 5 models strong. 185 or 195 points isnt a game breaking unit, but a very strategical one, especially with krak grenades to assault a lone vehicle relying on the reroll scatter dice.

I don't advise taking a flamer, or a 30 point upgrade heavy gun. The sergeant is wonderful with a powerfist or power weapon if you include one. If you include units like cantor, the weight of attacks they can yield for their cost can feel worthwhile.

IMO, fearless is a godsend, +2 points at least. +1 attack is another +1 point. S&P is +2 points, then justifying the cost of the heavy weapons. WS5 sergeant for +5 points? Worth at least 10 IMO. LD10 standard on top of fearlessness for the vague chance something nasty arrives like a callidus shooting the mind melter, 6's to hurt the whole squad. +1 point IMO. 3++ Save? Thats like having storm shields everywhere, another +2 or more points. Add deep strike now with a reroll scatter? Granted its no drop pod, but still being able to deep strike near a table edge and rely on it? +30 points at least for the whole squad.

So for 10 marines (160 Im guessing), +9 points a model on top of +35 points for the whole squad, that comes out to an easy 285 points for 10 models. Maybe they over priced it a little bit, but adding a unit like this (that rivals chaos units in a blend of almost all of them in a way) for loyalists? That justifies the 20 point difference alone perhaps. Especially when you can deep strike the whole army, even most of the armies choices if you leave out heavy support. (MoTF= HS dreads with pods.... Yeah).

So I say they are worthwhile, just unpopular and has the mixed role syndrome. A super tactical squad, where most people would prefer not to have such a squad and pick specialists instead.

ehlijen
24-11-2009, 03:39
They can:
-Reliably DS without a beacon
-shoot weapons relentlessly
-Survive Ap3- weapons
-laugh at power weapons
-laugh at psyker battlesquads (or similar) trying to lower their ld
-have a WS5 model in the units without needing an HQ slot

Not all those reasons are great, but they have a role.

owen matthew
24-11-2009, 03:55
Base before any upgrades.

305 for 10 LotD
170 for 10 tac

LotD's gun upgrades are signifigantly more expensive than tac's are. Twice as much for options like the plasma gun. 4x as much for a plasma cannon and 3x as much for a las, MM is 30, but free in a tac, etc accross the board. This is not a cost effective fire platform. S and P will make up for some of that, but you are paying for it twice, as reflected in the cost of the model, and again in the cost of the weapon!

I appreciate the discussion, but I do not agree that these guys are a good idea. I don't think anyone feels like the Wraith's 3++ save worked wonders. The idea that your save is ++ is not great, its still a 3, I don't get whay a terminator would not want to be in combat with these guys, they hit back so much harder, they will take it in the end everytime! The LotD just does not have the output ability to compete, they cannot even score for all of that extra toughness!!!

Just my 2c.

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 05:48
They really depend on the opponent. Against an enemy that relies on small numbers of heavy hitting weaponry (tau for instance) they can be very good. That 3+ Inv save and rerolling DS make them quite useful in many instances. However any time they are forced to just make a bunch of armor saves, they willl start dropping. LotD are great to mess up an enemy deathstar unit (like Vulkan+TH/SS termi's) and slow it down and hurt it some.

But very situational indeed. They very clearly have some limits.

Lordsaradain
24-11-2009, 06:27
LoTD? Anyone care to tell me what unit we are actually discussing? I don't have the Marine codex so I can't see for myself.

Tethylis
24-11-2009, 06:44
LotD - Legion of the Damned

Could it be you are paying a premium for the "rule of cool" look :D

owen matthew
24-11-2009, 07:52
LotD - Legion of the Damned

Could it be you are paying a premium for the "rule of cool" look :D

Maybe, because the extra points are ALMOST justified by being that much cooler looking... They are sexy as hell!