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akgaroth
23-11-2009, 21:40
I collect WoC (HoC before) since I started with WHFB and I was thinking to collect a small army of WE, just to change.
Here's the list I made:

Noble of the Wardancers' clan with (enemies have -1 to hit against him but all forest spirits within 6" of him suffer stupidity) 130pts.

Noble of the Waywatchers' clan with Moonstone of the hidden ways 145pts.

Spellsinger with 2 dispell scrolls 140pts.

10 glade guards 120pts.

10 glade guards 120pts.

5 glade riders with musician 129pts.

8 wardancers with musician 151pts.

4 treekins 260pts.

4 warhawks 160pts.

6 waywatchers 144pts.

(I'm sorry about the magical items' names, as i'm translating them from the italian version)

Thanks in advance for the replies.

warhawk95
23-11-2009, 22:00
You have alot of characters for this point lvl. WE are not like chaos in anyway shape or form. Our heros dont go out and take out hole units or cast amazing spells (execpt for TMA). WE characters are their to support what the army lacks. Usually this involves magic offense and defense, supporting a unit (like a WD noble supports WD so they are more powerful in combat) or does something on his own like a dragon or alter character. With that said at this point lvl I would say 2 characters are about right. A scroll caddy is good, a BW with lvl 1 and CoR could work too its optional. If you regulary face magic heavy armies then take both, because the BW will give a decent offense as well and if you can spare points AoN would be cool too. If you want a noble honestly both of yours arent very effective. WD nobles are alright, but your equipment isnt toogood for him. I would instead give him blades of loec and leave at that. with the +4 WS dance he has enough protection. the WW kindred are considered not too effective for their points so i would drop him. Another option for a character, instead of the noble, is a standard alter, which is a noble w/ alter kindred, LA, shield, GW, HoDA, and HotH. very verstile character that is fast, solid fighter, and has the infamous HoDA. The alter or the noble is really your choice though.

Your unit selection is fine, Im not a fan of treekin so personally I would drop them in favour of some WR with a warbanner. If you did decide to do that then get 2x8 units of dryads (with the dropped noble you have plenty of points). another option is too keep the treekin, drop a WW and then get 2x8 dryads as well. seems like a good list otherwise, just fix up the characters a bit and get some dryads!

TheGuardian170
23-11-2009, 22:53
Drop the War Hawk Riders and add another unit of Wardancers. I would also drop the first Noble for some more Glade Guard or Dryads (quite possibly the best core choice ever!).

War Hawk Riders are WAY to expensive for what they do... WAY WAY WAY to expensive. and you don't need the First Noble as they are just support for your units. If this was a Chaos list I would have a bit of something different to say but it WE so lol.

Another option is to take another Spellsinger with the Stave of... something I cannot remember right now. But it allows for Infinite Tree Singing by that singer (make her Lv2) and spam Tree Singing.

abcz417
23-11-2009, 23:10
I have to disagree with TheGuardian170 about warhawk riders: I think they're great :). They are the best things that WE have for mage and warmachine hunting. In addition their hit and run means that they can charge into combat and even if they don't win it's not a massive problem as a result it means that they can't be bogged down and dragged into combat. Don't get me wrong, wardancers are good, it's just that warhawks provide something that none of the other WE units do.

Apart from that I agree with what's been said especially with regards your characters: too many and not really the right combos I'm afraid.

warhawk95
24-11-2009, 01:11
Well actually abcz417 there are alot of other units that can do WHR job. GR can do the same job and they are cheaper, an alter can do the job too, as can WW. All of which are cheaper than 4 WHR (this is the optimal size IMO), granted the alter has better usues. but i dont see WHR taking down a vampires or chaos casters as quickly. overall i agree though that WHR are very good at what they do but i think that they can be easily switched out for GR and not only are points gained but another special slot.

TheGuardian170
24-11-2009, 02:48
abcz417 40pts is a lot for 2st 4 attacks (on the Charge) / 1st3 bow shot... yes they can hunt magi but GR or Wild Riders will do a much better job and are cheaper by a lot. WR have a better save too. They are probably the worst fly cavalry point for point in the game... in fact I know they are lol. Don't take them.

If you are worried about wizard hunting / warmachine hunting take another unit of GR or an Alter armed with Helm of the Hunt, Light Armour, Shield, GW, Hail of Doom Arrow 158pts. 2pts less so we'll call it same points and will kill more than that... I cannot make that guarantee for the WHR.

Now if you like WHR for fluff go for it, I love them in that department very cool. But for a competitive list, leave them at home because they are NOT worth the points.

Cheers,

Guardian

abcz417
24-11-2009, 08:02
I'm sorry but none of that is true.

Firstly cost. 3 warhawk riders cost 120 points, 5 glade riders cost 120. Yes it's better to have 4 warhawks but its also better to have 6 glade riders and a musician 160 and 153 points respectively (hardly a big difference).

Secondly, mage hunting. It is nearly always possible to get 2 warhawk riders to alloacte their attacks against a mage. In this instance warhawk riders will have 4 WS 4 Str 4 attacks. Glade riders by contrast will only have 2 WS 4 Str4 and 2 WS 3 Str 3 attacks. In these situations a WHR is far more likely to get the kills in.

While an alter can be useful, he can easily be avoided by the enemies unit's champion issuing a challenge. The standard alter (HoDA, HoH, GE, LA, shield) works out at about 158 points anyway (again a comparatively similar price). WW by contrast cannot target individual characters.

Wild riders are good, but if a charge goes wrong you will lose an extra 100 vp for the standard. The nice thing about WHR is that you can risk sacrifcing your unit to kill the 150+ pt mage.

Finally, flying cavalry have advantages over normal cavalry: only need to see unit when charging, can charge and move further, no distance penalty for failed charge, etc. They're not massive improvements but when you're swuabbling over a couple of points can switch the balance in WHR's direction.

If you want your WHR to shoot then TheGuardian is right don't bother, but personally I never see the point in str 3 shooting (the only exception is WW because of their lethal shot function). Yes they can be expensive in terms of other books but when designing a book you really should be looking at the costs from an internal balance first. Otherwise you won't take a treeman because a hydra is better, etc, etc.

A competitive list can work with WHR and some do very well. I would personally suggest you try both units in your list and see which one works for you.

Kukkelukke
24-11-2009, 08:22
Hey...

I also use WHR for mage hunt and warmachine hunt... They are not the best WE unit, but if you use them carefully they are worth the pts...

About the Alter Noble most ppl tend to give him HoDA, HoH, GE, LA, shield... This is great! Use him wisely and heīll also be worth the pts...

Waywatchers on the other hand are far too expensive... They only get killing blow on short range and 1 magic missile and POOF! GONE! Donīt bother using them... They are IMO the worst WE unit...

Use the pts on dryads instead... 2x ws4 S4 is fantastic... 8 dryads are 96 pts... And ppl fear and hate them..

Also consider dropping the last noble... He is not that good, and not worth the points. 2 heroes are more than enough in 1500 pts.

Instead of having treekin i would also consider a Treeman.. Heīs stubborn which makes him (sometimes) a better choice than treekin...

The Glade riders are one of your most powerful units in their own way. I always have minimum 2 of this unit... Bait, bait and bait... Keep the enemy from marching and sacrifice them at will... Play very offensive with theese guys.. Go in deep beyond enemy lines! Place them at the front on the opponent and watch them flee, while your enemy makes a failed charge...

Finally remember that WE cant take a charge. U need a unit that is able to hold a charge for 1 turn, making it possible for u to get into the flanks... The Treeman is great for this, even though he cannot break anything by himself.

Good luck ! :)

warhawk95
24-11-2009, 11:06
Waywatchers on the other hand are far too expensive... They only get killing blow on short range and 1 magic missile and POOF! GONE! Donīt bother using them... They are IMO the worst WE unit...



If you think these guys are the worst unit then im afraid you are using them wrong, because they are infact a very strong unit if you hide them right and they are not in LoS of a wizard. and also GR the unit that you said is one of the best is just as vunarable to missile fire as WW and can be killed just as easily, much like many other WE units.

@abcz417

no one takes 6 GR, ive never seen it and if i did i would tell them to drop one. second most people take 4 WHR, becaus if you take 3 and one dies they panic. so the point difference is 129 to 160. not big but 30 points is a scroll, another WW, almost a 1/3 of a dryad unit you get the idea. im not saying that WHR are at their job, but they are not the only that can preform that job. GR are just as effective,despite the less S4 they can still have 5 and that is enough for any hero mage and any lord will be down to 1 wound so they wont cast due to miscast. this is assuming a T3 mage, anything higher change things. Also WW are effective at suicide charging, ive done it in a must situation, but they do have other uses. and alter is all about positioning of the charge and where the charater is. Plus i usally use another unt with it to help.

Kukkelukke
24-11-2009, 11:29
Sure... But the GR unit is core and the WW is rare... IMO i could really get a LOT better units than WW... Compared to the rest of the army i do not think they are worth their points... Also very often there are no favourable places on the battlefield to place them... Making them a waste. I can see your point, that they can be worth the points. But in my experience i would not bother taking them.. The pts they cost could be used much better...

And why are you called warhawk95 if you dont like warhawks :P I agree though that GR CAN do the same job... But the job is easier with warhawks :)

Just a joke :)

abcz417
24-11-2009, 11:40
Reducing 4 WHR to 3 causes a panic test as well, so I don't think that's the reason most people take 4; it's usually done to keep US 5+ for longer. In any case in order for WHR to take their panic test they need to suffer 2 wounds, which is exactly the same as 5 GR before they have to take their panic test so I fail to see that as a massive advantage...

For mage hunting the number of models isn't important, it's the number you can get into base contact with the mage, which, in both instances, is 2. I would therefore always prefer the extra WS and Str the warhawk gives you - GR may kill a t3 mage, warhawks almost certainly will (aprox 90%). That's a huge difference when you're talking about potentially sacrificing a unit.

Warhawks can also flee and go mage hunting again in the following turn (presuming they survive); glade riders can't (at least not with the same degree of certainty) as even if they kill the mage they or their opponent may pass their break test. WHR also don't panic units when they flee.

I would say that all that is definately worth the additional 30 points, though I don't think 6 GR are as useless as you make out...

I would though second what Warhak95 says about WW they give a number of advantages that can't be achieved elsewhere, plus their lethal shot rule can be really effective, especially against high point cavalry like blood nights :)

I don't though think that WE have any 'useless' units so long as you take the right configuration. All the units can perform a function that can't be replicated (as easily) by your other troops. You just need to work out what functions you want your army to do and build the list from there.

warhawk95
24-11-2009, 12:12
Im not saying they arent the best at thier job, im just saying in regards to your first post that WHR arent the only unit taht can preform, which is what you said. I do agree they are more effective and the 30 points isnt that much to pay, but in some lists you may need to cut 30 points and switching from WHR to GR is a pretty obvious choice. And I disagree with why they are taken for US5+, i think it is panic so then it is 2 wounds to panic the unit. IDK about you but I use my WHR to kill mages and warmachines not to flank units that is the job of WR and treeman, i suppose you could but they really have more jobs they could be doing then flank charging.

@Kukkelukke

They are core vs rare but for that addition you get KB at short range, scouts, special deployment, minus to hit, and a bonus in BS. The KB alone forces your oppenent to keep characters in unit in fear of a lucky roll, they can easily threaten knight units and they are a very simple answer to a PoK DE lord, one few armies have. So they maynot make up their points but their threat alone makes them worthwhile. And with their special deployment i always find mine in a good spot on the battelfield.

abcz417
24-11-2009, 12:22
Read my post. I said: that a) I thought WHR were great and b) they were best at performing the job of mage hunting. I never said that they were the only unit that could perform this role.

WHR have 2 wounds naturally. My point was that a WHR being reduced from 4 to 3 causes exactly the same panic test as WHR being reduced from 3 to 2. The panic test is therefore irrelevant in deciding unit size unless you're goiung 5+, which would be pointless and expensive.

I don't think that we disagree as much as I originaly thought and I'm sorry if my post was unclear, I never meant to say that there was nothing else that could kill mages - clearly that would be ridiculous ;)

warhawk95
24-11-2009, 16:12
I think I was reading your first post and looked at it in perspecitve that they are the only thing that can hunt mages, but you were proably talking about hit and run, thats my fault. And I proably made it seem like WHR are crap, I dont think this. They are good unit with a very specfic role I just find GR better, mainly because they can be fielded cheaper at a efficent lvl (3 WHR is just not effective IMO) and they are core, and most of my special is taken up with WD and WR. I have fielded armies with WHR and they do their job very well. I think GR vs WHR is really just personal prefrence as each have their pros and cons. In the end thouh WE are the best army for killing mages because they do have so many cheap units that can do so, I have used dryads in many situations before and that cheap 96 point unit with kill an expensive mage it is a big help.

akgaroth
24-11-2009, 18:13
Wow, thanks for the feedback guys.

I think that I should explain how did I come to this list:

1) Wardancer hero + wardancers: I gave to the hero that item exactly for not to abuse of the ward save dance and gave him and his unit a more offensive role (using the killing blow or the +1A dances), as my opponent will usually need 5s to impact him. Or I just may use it as an additional protection for my general.

2) I also would have preferred not to give to my other hero the waywatcher kindred, but I wanted him to be deployed along with the waywatchers and use the Moonstone when a dangerous unit approaches (possibly "jumping" behind enemy's lines :evilgrin:).

3) I chosed the treekins to have something "though" in my army, but I think after reading your comments that I should replace them with dryads (I look past them due to my habitude to have chaos warriors/chaos knights ... sorry). Which is the best size for them?

In general, I took this choices basically for fear of armies with a lot of resilient units with good R or/and armour which I think are the major pain in the **** for WE. Or I just got the wrong impression?

warhawk95
24-11-2009, 18:43
1) if he is part of the WD they must all have the same dance if im not mistaken so i would say again just give him the blades
2) that is really not effective, its an expensive unit for a one trick poney that is really wont accomplish that much that can be done for less points
3) dryads work best in units of 8

WE have two major weakness's magic and things with high T. TM are good to counter the latter, but with all the flaming attacks i find them to be less valuable than before but still a good investment. magic is taken care of with mage hunting, just read the comments above for that, and spending points for DD and scrolls. unfourtanetly its not the easiest to mage hunt the armies that have really good magic (VC are hard to kill, LM slann is not easy, DE usually have a sin, WoC have disk, DoC lol, TK see VC) so its not exactly the best tactic, but it can be done and WE have the tools to do it. Points for mages are expensive the fact that a scroll caddy cost alot because we are an elven mage is just absurd because WE get no bonuses like the other mages and are magic is utter crap so in conclusion to stop a long rant are magic is overpriced. The lone caddy should be good for this level if you take WHR and GR with it because you have enough magic defense for around 2 turns and you can easily engage enemy mage units by that turn (as in make them in combat or kill them).

akgaroth
24-11-2009, 20:54
Yes, I know that all WD must use the same dance, I wanted to say that I'd prefer to give to the whole WD unit a more offensive role as its most important member had already some kind of protection, and after all they're a CC skirmish unit so they really need it.
And the waywatchers ability to KB with shots is no good either, not even against heavy cavalry?
Anyways, I designed another list, tell me what you think.

WD noble with blades of loec 140pts.

Spellsinger with 2 dispell scrolls 140pts.

10 glade guards 120pts.

10 glade guards 120pts.

10 glade guards 120pts

8 dryads 96pts.

8 dryads 96pts.

5 glade riders with musician 129pts.

8 WD with musician 151pts.

3 warhawks 120pts.

3 warhawks 120pts.

6 waywatchers 144pts.

Is it any better? I still take the waywatchers over the treeman as its 285 can be burnt too easily by the dangerous things that lurk out there (flamers, Tzeentch's magic, hydras,...).

warhawk95
24-11-2009, 22:10
No the WW shots are good, I love WW dont get me wrong I think they are one of the WE best units. But the WW hero is just not effective for his point. And as for the WD comment, yes maximizing offense is importan, but your lone hero wont do much good because your WD choose the KB dance and your oppenent ignored your hero and killed your troops. So just stick with the blades.

I like the new list, only thing that stands out is you have only 3 hitty units, but you have 4 annyoance/harrasing/hunting units. I personally would consider dropping a unit of WHR, one WW, and the WD music. for 5 naked WR. That gives you another hitty unit and then you have a hammer that can negate ranks as well. WD in the front, WR in the flank and you should break most non-deathstar units. Good list, just lack a negate ranking unit.

TheGuardian170
25-11-2009, 00:11
He could try do the same thing with the WH but I still don't like them. To many points for what they do, I have never seen them used competitively.

Also I would give your WD Noble the Moonstone instead of the blades. The moonstone allows you to move your WD into an advantageous position right off the bat like I did against Empire knights, or draw someone in with them and then POP! you are gone on the other flank leaving them isolated or something like that.

I still think you should add a Alter Noble, he WILL make up his points unless you use him wrong. You could drop both WH units for some WR or a Alter or Branch Wraith (shes awesome too 2DD!)

Honestly other than it not having an Alter, which I consider a don't go w/o, I like the list. Good Luck!

Cheers,

Guardian

warhawk95
25-11-2009, 00:27
3 characters is too many at that point lvl, especialy for WE who dont really need characters, they are there for support more than anything. And blades vs moonstone is really either or. With moonstone you get a one trick poney, once your oppenents sees it happen once it will surprise him but after that he will se it coming. Blades on the other hand are much more effecitve because they help in combat and turn the WD from an alright combat unit to a really good one with the addition of S5 and re-rolls on that character. And branchrwriaths are very good, I always bring one because they are very verstile chracters. But really the list is fine as is play some games with, like 10-15 and then you decide baised on how you play what you want to change, weve done enough to put you in the right direction.

Dudeguy1235
25-11-2009, 01:15
I'm can't really give you that much advice on this list, mainly because my wood elves were pretty much all trees. I can however recommend taking a tree man in stead of tree-kin. I personally would also drop a unit of war hawk riders and probably break the dryads into units of 5. Maybe that will help a little? Haha.

akgaroth
25-11-2009, 09:28
Ok, thanks for all the advices!

abcz417
25-11-2009, 10:47
I like the list and I really wouldn't change the list until you've at least play tested it. While I like the standard alter I agree with warhawk that you've probably got enough characters for this points level. Also Dudeguy1235, you can't have drayds in units of less than 8.

Finally, just to clarify my US 5+ comments regarding the WHR. I was not saying it so that they can negate ranks; flying cavalry count as skirmishers in this respect so can't do this. Rather it was in situations where you can put them behind an enemy unit; charge that unit with your treeman or break it in combat so it breaks and flees into your WHR and is destroyed. This isn't there main function but can, in certain situations, be used effectively. Reading my post though I didn't make my reasoning very clear; apologies.