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View Full Version : walk a mile in another army's shoes: orge style



thechosenone
23-11-2009, 23:10
My most frequent opponent is a long time friend and he plays OK. He loses to me in every game i've played with him and he claims that OK are hard to win with. We decided to swap armies so i could see if its that bad and to give him a chance at something else.

He picked my Lizard men rather then Vampire counts. We each took a week to get a list together.

We played 2250.

I ran a tyrant with siegehammer and brace, two groups of three man eaters with braces, one butcher with hell heart, two bruisers with braces and fitted for fighting, three two strong lead belcher units, three units of bulls and i think that's it. (Don't have the list anymore)

He made a list with a slann two engines of the gods, two temple guard and the rest skink skirmishers.

What i've learned from this.

Hellheart is a must. Killed both skinks in his first magick phase. Its hard to have a magick phase against a slann. I built from the start to be combat heavy and it worked for me. Ogres biggest advantage is maneuverability. Small units turn better and they move so fast. I learned that Brace of pistols is great great great. Gut magick is good when it works and isn't dispelled. A judicious use of brain gobbler earned me points.

The outcome was a draw game, which i felt good about. Ogres have it rough but its winnable. Its just requires a lot more planning then i'm used to.

Any thoughts on the plight of ogres and have any of you ever tried a game from the opponent's perspective to see how they play?

narrativium
23-11-2009, 23:35
Will your opponent be trying something like the Ogre list you used?

The Hellheart's interesting, but I don't favour it - on the one hand, it can shut down an enemy magic phase; on the other, some of the Ogre miscast results affect all Ogres, including yours, so you're putting your own Butchers at risk too. It's overpriced - but then, many things in Ogres are by a smidgen.

Against Lizardmen... Siegebreaker was definitely the right choice against Lizards, Engines in particular. You'd have had a tougher time against Vampires with that list, given their knack for single-dice casts (rendering the Hellheart slightly more ineffective).

I've tried a game from the opponent's point of view a few times. I took Kairos for the first time against Ogres last year, prior to the Grand Tournament, and the Ogres fell. It is a sore point that against some things, they are generally outclassed - but, as you say, a good player (one with experience or a gift for the planning you refer to) can do well with them.

mrjellybeans
24-11-2009, 01:16
Ogres do have a tough time these days but wins are possible. I get plenty with mine, but I think that has more to do with experience with the army.

It seems you made a nice paradigm list also. These kinds of lists are getting more wins against the newer books than the old cookie cutter lists.

Condottiere
24-11-2009, 03:27
It probably helped that you were playing against an army that you were aware of both it's strengths and weaknesses. I'm guessing, but your opponent might be able to play to an army's strength, but has a problem compensating for the weak points.

Bretonnian Lord
24-11-2009, 03:42
Yup, I've done this several times with my friend's Lizardmen and High Elves (6th and 7th edition). It's a lot of fun to play as the army you'd normally oppose. Also, when he plays as my Bretonnians I find it really easy to counter him, probably because I have 5+ years of experience playing as the Brets and I know their weaknesses.

Darkangeldentist
24-11-2009, 04:02
I've occasionally played and always enjoyed using other armies. When able to I've sometimes swapped with my opponent so the first game we used our own army and then again but with each others. The nice thing about that twist is that you get to see how to use the army first. Admittedly it means no surprises with magic items or hidden stuff but it still works out very fun.

Ogres are harder to win with than some armies but they do have some nice tricks, you mentioned some of them. The great skull is another and fistful of laurels is pretty nice too.

Listening to your post it sounds like your opponent was quite unlucky though, losing both priests to the hellheart was rough. I imagine things would have been much tougher had even one of them lived.

thechosenone
24-11-2009, 05:25
It probably helped that you were playing against an army that you were aware of both it's strengths and weaknesses. I'm guessing, but your opponent might be able to play to an army's strength, but has a problem compensating for the weak points.

Probably a fair assessment.

He tends not to alter his list much and where he's building his army toward is an eventual skrag type list.

I wanted to run a list that was nothing like what he usually ran. Also, he has trouble making a paradigm for his army. For good or ill i went with a ranged type ogre army I targeted skinks to cause panic that i knew they'd have trouble passing. I tried to soften things up on the way to combat and i tried buffing my small units with bruisers. It went ok. Had i not lost my last wound on a tyrant to Comet of Cassie in the last turn and had i killed one more templar guard i'd of pulled a victory. Oh well, but i proved to him that there are ways to run ogres other then what he was doing. It was really fun for me.

He told me he liked lizardmen way less then he thought he would. Oh well.

thechosenone
24-11-2009, 05:30
I've occasionally played and always enjoyed using other armies. When able to I've sometimes swapped with my opponent so the first game we used our own army and then again but with each others. The nice thing about that twist is that you get to see how to use the army first. Admittedly it means no surprises with magic items or hidden stuff but it still works out very fun.

Ogres are harder to win with than some armies but they do have some nice tricks, you mentioned some of them. The great skull is another and fistful of laurels is pretty nice too.

Listening to your post it sounds like your opponent was quite unlucky though, losing both priests to the hellheart was rough. I imagine things would have been much tougher had even one of them lived.

I took greatskull, fistful of laurels i skipped. I knew my weakness was leadership and fistful wasn't enough of a boost to compensate so i skipped it

Jind_Singh
24-11-2009, 07:50
where were you all?! I've been looking for more advice on the other thread - can ogres cut the mustard - and theres some good suggestions above.
More and more I've been hearing about the brace of pistols on maneaters - and more and more theres been talk of running 2 units of 3 - hitting on 4's at long range isn't shabby especially as it adds an extra attack in close combat!

J.P. Biff
24-11-2009, 08:14
[QUOTE=mrjellybeans;4154155]Ogres do have a tough time these days but wins are possible. I get plenty with mine, but I think that has more to do with experience with the army.QUOTE]

I'm in the same boat. I retired the army a year ago as it had suffered only one loss and each game started to get repetitive. Now I am spoiled in that there are no dwarf players and only one daemon player (the two armies I have had draws against, and probably the toughest armies to face IMO) in my area but my tactics differ greatly from what I see on these forums.

I could go on forever about how I use the army (and I will if someone wants :p) but my static 2000pts list for the last two years of my Ogres gaming lives was basically:

Tyrant spangleshard and tenderiser
Butcher, the mask of -1Ld (heh heh forget name:confused:) sword of might
Butcher, dispel scroll x 2

4 units of 3 bulls with xhw
4 units of 3 ironguts
20 gnoblars
scrap launcher
2 units of 2 leadbelchers
2 gorgers

I'm probably missing something but this was close to it. IMO all other units in the army are overpriced for what they do. There are so many units that ironguts can do almost, if not, better.

Darnok
24-11-2009, 12:24
I could go on forever about how I use the army (and I will if someone wants :p)

*raises hand*

I'd be most interested in your thoughts. Your list looks a bit weird to me, but that may be due to me being a spoilt internet-kiddo. I'd definetely like to read your ideas, as I'm sure would others.

TheMav80
24-11-2009, 14:59
MSU Ogres are the way to go for me. Wood Elves still give me some trouble, but other than that I do okay.

I do real well against my friends WoC and Dwarfs. I do okay against High Elves. I've got a very losing record vs VC though.

orkz222
24-11-2009, 15:46
where were you all?! I've been looking for more advice on the other thread - can ogres cut the mustard - and theres some good suggestions above.


http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229851

as mention above.

Grimmeth
24-11-2009, 20:50
Swapping armies is probably the best idea gamers can have, gives you a good example of 'the other side of the coin' so to speak, and is only going to make you a better player in the long run.

thechosenone
26-11-2009, 04:20
I've got to play my opponent again this saturday. He says he's tweeked the list he usually runs based on what i did with his ogres which is complementary to hear. He insists on tyrant with tenderizer which isn't my favorite but oh well. He's gunna try to be more shooty. I though ogres had great shooty ability.

I'm not sure if i should run my lizard men or just try vampires of skaven. Vampires i know will give him trouble which isn't my goal in life. I'm not sure whether to go skaven or Lizardmen, leaning toward lizards though.

Condottiere
26-11-2009, 06:51
If you want to measure any improvement, stick to your usual list and tactics.