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Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 01:53
greetings all, today i tried to play a game but was turned away for my army not being legal, this was a local store and I seem to have gained a rep as the guy who like to use these models so if your going against me you know what to expect

now on to my army, it was painted (at least 5 coulours minimum on each and every model), was fully based (flocked and painted) each model was highlighted and shaded, the list was 1500pts spot on and every unit in it was completely book legal (upgrades paid for and modelled) I have the book and army list fully typed up with points and stats clearly marked to avoid confusion

my opponents army, an ork warboss on a bike (painted, looked to be 3 colours) 6 nob bikers (partially painted) several squads of orks, many without weapons, most either grey plastic or black undercoated, all bases were still basic black plastic, no codex, piece of paper with army written on it but no points values or any upgrades listed and yet this list is perfectly fine

the difference? mine is the forgeworld list "servants of decay" basically an imperial guard army with some new stuff and the vast majority of the codex stripped out (no orders, valks, vultures, advisors, tank squads, stormtroopers, rough riders the list goes on and on)

so i gotta ask: whats the problem with forgeworld? why is it dismissed out of hand without even looking at the rules for it? see to me if my army above was a GW one it would be completely tourney legal, the ork one is not even close but because its forgeworld I gotta beg and plead for a game even when i like to think ive put a hell of a lot of effort into it than half the people who can just dump any half finished project down and get a game no problem

i know about the whole "opponents consent" thing but its really getting out of hand, you cant just say "nope your not allowed" without at least seeing what its all about, heck at least 2/3 of the army is identical to the imperial guard codex so theres no confusion (traitor armour fist squads? nope never heard of them)

and my army gets called cheesy? 5 armoured fist squads, 9 plague ogryns, a command squad with a lascannon 6 chemical mortars and 2 banewolf, the only thing that is even close to cheesy is the chemical mortars and theyre as fragile as a regular heavy weapon, guess i could play twin lash and take 9 obliterators, thats codex and not cheesy or broken at all so nobody can say no to it

so i got 2 games today (not bad over 7 hours) lost one to a marine player (non cheesy vulkan termy spam) and drew one against a nid army (last turn chimera rush onto the objective) yep fear my mega broken ultra cheesy forgeworld lists

heck theres cases where imperial armour stuff i got knocked back for in the past was put in a codex, made better and nobody even blinks at it anymore (case and point: the hydra, cheesy in IA1, much better now but perfectly fine in codex:guard)

sorry for the wall'o'text folks

Tyruin son of Ages
24-11-2009, 01:58
Thats ridicuous.
The only reason i can give to them doing this is because theyre terrerfied of your tactical prowess! :P
But honestly, forge worlds rules arent very 'exotic' as such norare they unbalanced, and to be perfectly fair it seems theyre better made than GW, but i digress. From what i read, your army is perfectly legal and all, and should they continue, you should just botcott them.

Theyre are always people like this; you just have to ignore them. I know im not very hopeful, but i doubt you could force them to play you.
All the best.
Tyruin out.

Edonil
24-11-2009, 01:59
I know the feeling. I had to argue for a while to get Forgeworld allowed in our local tournaments, and it's amusing because I have yet to see a non-super heavy, flyer or gargantuan creature that Forgeworld has produced that isn't either identical to a codex entry or more points than its really worth. I'd always be willing to play against, if it makes you feel any better.

Thud
24-11-2009, 01:59
Because some people are whingy gits.

If it makes you feel better, I'd not only play you, I'd actively seek you out to play you. You have a pretty unique army there and it would be awesome to go up against it.


One thing, though. Was this a GW store? Because they won't let you use anything that is not sold on the premises (or at least available through direct order).

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 02:03
GW store, dont want to name the location as i dont want to upset the regulars i know are on here, ive never came across this "cant be used unless it can be bought here or direct though" its usually just "its gotta be a GW model" so no turning up with stuff from other companies (forgeworld is cool as its part of GW i always thought)

Hicks
24-11-2009, 02:06
I think people do that because when they refuse to play a FW army by saying it's illegal, they feel like they won a game without even needing to play it. Because, you know, you're trying to cheat so they win by default. :rolleyes:

IMO this guy only cares about winning and probably wouldn't have been fun at all to play with anyway.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 02:08
I dont play with or against FW units. I dont know the rules to know what they are or do.

Along with a few things from FW are OP.

I would consider playing against it if i had a chance to read the rules for the units you planned on using.

Other then that probly not if i didnt have that chance.

Arakanis
24-11-2009, 02:10
I don't believe opponents consent should be a rule. It's clear that you don't have to play people you don't want to play, but here's the thing. By making that a rule, you allow gits who'd rather not lose quote some "Legalese" and get out of playing against a completely legitimate army. Personally, I wish Chapter Approved would come back. Basically, if it's in a FW or GW publication, it's legal, no ifs ands or buts. If you don't want to play against it, fine, but it shouldn't be considered different than an "official" codex.

Edonil
24-11-2009, 02:11
I dont play with or against FW units. I dont know the rules to know what they are or do.

Along with a few things from FW are OP.

I would consider playing against it if i had a chance to read the rules for the units you planned on using.

Other then that probly not if i didnt have that chance.

What Forgeworld thing do you consider overpowered that's not a flyer, super-heavy or gargantuan creature? Not arguing, just curious.

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 02:22
I admit there are some broken forgeworld models out there, for one theres that drop pod with all those assault cannons and........well.......er.......

and on GW codex side we have: lash spam, obliterator spam, mech plague marine spam, storm shield termy spam, JOTWW, fleeting scouting first turn charge terminators (or the can they cant they shrike argument) nob bikers

I can see your point that if you dont know it you can refuse it as nobody likes having rules sprung on them half way through a game but it works both ways: I havnt read the eldar codex, i dont know the stats for pretty much everything, i dont know what a biker seer counci can do, whats a wraith lords stats? i dont know as i havnt read the book but nobody knocks back a game against an army they havnt read the rules for

starlight
24-11-2009, 02:26
Because some people are whingy gits.

If it makes you feel better, I'd not only play you, I'd actively seek you out to play you. You have a pretty unique army there and it would be awesome to go up against it.


One thing, though. Was this a GW store? Because they won't let you use anything that is not sold on the premises (or at least available through direct order).

Pretty much this.

I'd rather see *more* FW than less... It looks awesome if done well and most of the rules (most, not all) are actually *under*powered...

Bring it. :D

Hadafix
24-11-2009, 02:28
As long as you got a list and the book for the rules your going to be using, anyone saying no is just being silly or is probably new to the game.

As long as you got the book and a list I would have no problems at all. And I cant learn to beat you unless I play against you.

FW is still part of GW.

DuskRaider
24-11-2009, 02:31
I've had a similar problem, and I chock it up to one thing: They're jealous they can't afford Forge World pieces or armies. I bring the books, I allow my friends and opponents to page through them (I encourage it), and I've been turned down a few times. A buddy of mine started Daemonhunters and want to purchase IA: 2 for the tanks, but has been discouraged by the same folks who cheese their way through a tournament and WAAC at normal game nights.

I could tell you what I really think about people like this, but I don't feel like getting banned... I'm actually selling my Renegade Militia army because it's gotten to the point where I can either use them as Imperial Guard (which is lame) or not use them at all. No thanks.

Corpse
24-11-2009, 02:34
The type of players that deny someone the right to play a decent legal list are often the ones you don't want to game with to begin with.

You should be happy they judge themselves for you so you don't have to go through the trouble of wasting time with them.

/thread

Fideru
24-11-2009, 02:34
Well, my experience is if you tell me what they do, and how they work, I'd gladly give you a game. I've never had trouble with that train of thought.

Cognitave
24-11-2009, 02:34
First off, Jaws is only as powerful as you let it be. Simple deployment, moving, and target prioritizing will eliminate would be jaws spammers (IMO, it's one of the weaker powers in the RP's arsenal).

Jetbike councils are really good deathstar units that have a multitude of different uses. Wraithlords are MCs that can be mobile gun units or smashy bashy close combat monsters, in a similar way to Dreadnoughts.

Mannimarco, if you have a clear copy of the rules and I get some time before the game (15-20 minutes so you can get a coffee or something :D), I wouldn't mind in the slightest. I trust Forgeworld, although I wouldn't play against fan-dexes. But bringing Nob Bikerz to a casual game, with no book, should show you a little bit about this bloke's character. Go find another opponent, don't let him get you down!

blackcherry
24-11-2009, 02:37
There seems to be this odd thing about forgeworld being played in a lot of the places I play. Myself I have a vracks army (from seige of vracks part 1) yet most people don't play me as there is a perception, at least where I play, that forgeworld is cheesy or overpower somehow, probably due to the amount of superheavies prouced by them over the years.

I think the best thing to do, is just arrange games ahead of time at the GW you play in or else ask the guys who run the shop is playing with forgeworld bits is ok. That way you have a definatate yes no answer. Or just find people who aren't so stuffy when it comes to what is 'official' or 'unofficial'.

starlight
24-11-2009, 02:40
But bringing Nob Bikerz to a casual game, with no book, should show you a little bit about this bloke's character. Go find another opponent, don't let him get you down!

Bringing *any* army to a game without a book is asking for...well, no game. :(

Bring your books people, it's part of playing the game...

What next...pretending to roll dice...? :rolleyes:

Hadafix
24-11-2009, 02:41
See if you can get a staff member to play against you, that would show up some people at least.

Gwyidion
24-11-2009, 03:06
I see no inherent difference between a list with FW models/rules and a well constructed fandex. I'll play your FW list if you'll play my fandex list.

Squallish
24-11-2009, 03:13
The two games I've played against Forgeworld lists I did not have any fun at all. It was an IG gunline with some artillery gun that forced you to fallback.. even if Fearless. I was playing my Ulthwe Guardian list and felt that was ridiculous. I rolled poorly on the fallback and lost 1/2 my army on turn 1.

This is why I will not play Forgeworld. I am not familiar with the ruleset, so the game will not be fun for me. I am at least familiar with the weird stuff in any official non-FW codex, so I am prepared for it. However some gimmick rule forcing half your army off on turn one is not my idea of fun.

You can build almost any army with the new IG codex. Why not just build a counts-as list for those who don't like playing with rules they're not willing to spend extra $$ on to learn.

BladeWalker
24-11-2009, 03:14
I don't know anything about Forgeworld rules but if you let me see what they were I'd play you. I've played against FW models with normal Codex rules but I have yet to play against any different rules, that doesn't mean I don't think it would be fun. Even if something appeared imbalanced or something, I would just offer a compromise rather than just saying I wouldn't play.

Chem-Dog
24-11-2009, 03:19
In defense of the guy on the other side of the table, FW rules have a rep for unballanced rules, stuff that can be included in relatively small battles (squiggoths and baneblades), from what I can gather it's got better recently but the rep still lingers.

If the list is a stripped out IG codex, why not run it as a best fit IG Codex list? Plague Ogryn count as regular Ogryns ect.

DuskRaider
24-11-2009, 03:22
I see no inherent difference between a list with FW models/rules and a well constructed fandex. I'll play your FW list if you'll play my fandex list.

Are you serious? :wtf:

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 03:24
theres a difference between forgeworld book and fandex

squallish: sounds like you got cheated, i cant for the life of me think of any weapon that would do that, even if there was such a weapon i can assure you my list (or any i have ever written/seen others write) would contain such a thing, like i say my list is pretty much codex guard with the exception of the chemical mortars (marine killing mortars) and plague ogryns (basically nurgly spawn)

i have used counts as in the past as ways of getting games but the way i see it is if im bringing the books and letting you read the rules before the game there wont be any surprises and no reason to knock it back

that and when you drop all that money on 3 books and your basic infantry are 3x more expensive than regular guard model money wise and 9 ogryns cost over 120 quid then it doesnt seem right to just count them as a guard army, if i wanted guard id buy (another) guard army

Phelix
24-11-2009, 03:28
That sucks, I say "F" people who aren't willing to try forgeworld & homebrew stuff because its different or "unbalanced" yeah because Space Wolves are totally balanced (no offense to those who've played SW for a while, or wanted to start because they were getting a new codex, complete offense meant to those who picked up SW because they are a strong list)

Most tournaments that I know of allow Forgeworld lists. I mean most still allow Chaos Dwarves (and even a few are allowing that Dwarves of Chaos book that the Chaos Dwarfs online guys are making)

ehlijen
24-11-2009, 03:30
Forgeworld is not known for creating well balanced rules. The majority, as you say, is somewhat overpointed, but every now and then something truly terrifyingly wrong slips through. There used to be a time when infernus shells on griffons could make even fearless units automatically run. Now they've got first turn charging ironclads.

But even ignoring all that, and 90% of the time you can as it's not often a problem, you've got FW nilly willy pumping out units without regard as to whether certain armies should have access to such units and creating new rules and mechanics as they please.

It's true that many of their units do not suffer from any of these things, but some do. And that's enough for people to prefer to stick with things that have the 'we thought about this enough to stick it in a codex' sticker. Sure, that's not always foolproof either, but at least it's something.

You might have much better success if you arrange for games with your FW army a few days in advance and offer them your books to read up on the rules. Few people are willing to learn new rules on the spot (whether they actually need to or not is less important than whether they feel like they need to) but if asked before hand they may be more open.

Arakanis
24-11-2009, 03:31
I see no inherent difference between a list with FW models/rules and a well constructed fandex. I'll play your FW list if you'll play my fandex list.

Begone Troll.

ehlijen
24-11-2009, 03:35
Begone Troll.

He's actually got a point. You're either a stickler for tourny legality (which usually don't included FW due to accessibility reasons) or you're at least somehwat open minded about new stuff. And if the latter is the case, why only FW and never homebrew stuff?

big squig
24-11-2009, 03:36
I don't know, I just kinda view forge world as separate...much like Apocalypse. If someone tried to play a normal 1500 point game against me and showed up with a datafax and started using stratagems, I might be a bit perplexed. I'd be even more perplexed if they told me I couldn't complain because it was GW printed rules and they bought and painted the models.

Now, if the same person approached me for a game, said they just wanted to goof around, and challenged me to fight a datafax I'd be cool with it as they gave me a heads up.

darker4308
24-11-2009, 03:37
Your trying to obviously string random games if people are turning down forgeworld. I do the same thing myself at a few local stores. One of the "polite" points of 40k is to show up with an army that your opponent has read the rules for prior to the game. You obviously know this as your pissed that some guy didn't have an army book .... but the Vraks books are a little different I think you'll agree.

If your so upset that you can't play with your special toys write to forgeworld to have their rules added to the standard 40k ruleset. I mean you bought army knowing full well you can't use it most of the major tournies....should you be suprised that some players are saying no because they don't have all the Vraks books and suspect power gaming ... no. If they turned you down it's 'cause they don't trust that your going to give them a fair game. If their mature they'll probably look at the list and say "ok" wtf it's just a game.

Count de Monet
24-11-2009, 03:41
Player trumps list. I'd rather play a good guy with Forgeworld units/a FW army or even a "fandex" than a jerk with an "official" codex. If they're a good guy they won't try to screw you with the stuff anyways.

I imagine they refuse to play anything that isn't a standard scenario either.

Horus38
24-11-2009, 03:42
And here I was expecting a thread about swearing :rolleyes:

I've always perceived FW as the eccentric and slightly unbalanced wing of GW in 40k. Now there's a huge difference between perception and the reality. I haven't played many games against FW, but that's always the feeling I got from some of their rules/models. I'd suspect it's more of the same with other people, whether or not FW actually brings more imbalance to the game.

Dark_Templar
24-11-2009, 03:45
First, I would argue till I was blue in the face with any GW store nob who said FW are not GW models, since I am fairly certain that FW are a subsidiary company of the GW umbrella company, and one inevitably leads to the other.

I would also use this point to say that saying imperial armour is a fandex is like saying I am a tractor. It is just stupid.

darker4308
24-11-2009, 03:47
I mean I'm all for cool weird games. I just don't like stuff like this --->

1)Tourny organizers brother allows a special weird forgeworld list into the tournment.
2)I ask to look at your FW book ... you say "no".
3)I just made this list with all my money, havn't showered this week, and I'm a complete toolbag ... will you consent to play me ?

Kriegfreak
24-11-2009, 03:48
You can play at our store anytime man, unconventional models are always a plus. If your army is fully painted and based, then I"d be happy just to sit there and check it out.

In regards to the FW 'rules' anyways, there stuff is usually over-costed and underwhelming game wise. I think most people dislike it because they aren't familiar with the rules. They are a branch of GW though, and in any tournament using GW miniatures in a GW game, they SHOULD be allowed - imo.

That said I usually just use the models with typical codex rules, no one really bats an eyelash about that. Its always good to have an alternate army list just in case. If they still won't let you play, screw em. They loose business that way, and the people probably aren't fun to hang out with anyways.

Arakanis
24-11-2009, 03:49
He's actually got a point. You're either a stickler for tourny legality (which usually don't included FW due to accessibility reasons) or you're at least somehwat open minded about new stuff. And if the latter is the case, why only FW and never homebrew stuff?

He really doesn't. Tourny legality varies from organizer to organizer and often from year to year. FW is a subsidiary of GW, which really makes those rules as legit as anything else, they happen to include the disclaimer that they may not be as balanced as "official" GW codices, but they're certainly more legal than something some bloke wrote up in his basement.

Edit: Keep in mind that Tournies often ban units/powers/wargear from normal GW codices too, so they can hardly be considered to be the silver standard on what's to be allowed and what isn't

darker4308
24-11-2009, 03:57
Point of order. Do the stores you guys use actually make any profit off FW stuff ? I know both of mine do not at this point and the one back home does not either.

fox-hound
24-11-2009, 03:58
You should kid-nap them tie them to a bed and force them to............play you. (you thought I was going somewhere else didn't you?:rolleyes:) So yeah rape-game them?

Dark_Templar
24-11-2009, 04:01
Point of order. Do the stores you guys use actually make any profit off FW stuff ? I know both of mine do not at this point and the one back home does not either.

Many stores wont stock much in the way of DE or Necrons, and Commander Shadowsun is direct order from GW. So if I field her in my Tau army, should the store refuse my army due to them not making any money off the miniature?

Cerraand
24-11-2009, 04:08
I'd rather have my opponent warn me in advance if he uses something uncommon. I would gladly play against a FW army, but if the opponent intents to use super heavy or gargantuan creatures, i'd prefer know in advance. It's usually a boring game when someone fields something the opponent have nothing to fight against.

In my GW store, they encourage us to bring our FW models as often as possible, i guess it depends on the store manager...

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 04:10
seems the whole forgeworld argument is very divisive, y'all seem pretty cool with it though but it just seems wierd thats people online are ok but anybody on the other side of the table wont look twice at it

Kriegfreak
24-11-2009, 04:19
Point of order. Do the stores you guys use actually make any profit off FW stuff ? I know both of mine do not at this point and the one back home does not either.

Probably not no, but making it so someone can't play because they have FW miniatures probably will hurt business. I know if they told me that, they'd never get a nickle of any money I was thinking about spending. Usually when I attend a tournament I always buy one or two things, that is half the reason stores hold them in the first place. That same person is also going to give quite a negative review of the store to anyone who ask or is told about it. Word of mouth is the best advertising this hobby has.

The store can certainly make their exceptions as far as rules go, they could have been more understanding and maybe compromised. Having it 'count as' something else, especially if the other player is warned beforehand. Its kind of a shame, cool models and awesome paint jobs should be as sought after as the wins.

imo Mannimarco, you ran into a bunch of babies. FW stuff is hardly over powered, and shouldn't be dismissed especially if they are playing a GW game. If you happen to ever be in my area, the invites always welcome. Use whatever models you like, just let us know what they are or count as, and its FUN times from there onward. I mean god forbid someone gets a chance to play against a unique or different army and not the same old spam tournament list :rolleyes:.

massey
24-11-2009, 04:34
I wouldn't have a problem with playing a FW list, but I don't own any of the books and would want to look over it first. Likewise, if I can look over somebody's fandex, I wouldn't have a problem playing that. Provided, of course, that they're both balanced and the guy is not a tool. But please, give me the courtesy of at least asking to use those various lists. I don't like being surprised.

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 04:41
I see no inherent difference between a list with FW models/rules and a well constructed fandex. I'll play your FW list if you'll play my fandex list.

Except you know, one is put out by a direct subsidiary of GW located at the same place as GW's HQ and is an offically licensed 40k supplement that passes GW review and one isn't?

Writerski7
24-11-2009, 04:53
It seems as if it depends on the gamer. Forgeworld and fan-made armies are pretty much the same: they allow for a unique and interestingly fun game. The only difference between the two is that FW is legal in *some* tournaments and fan-made aren't. Other than that it's fine.

However, if the fan-made list is completely over-powered (makes current Space Wolf Codex look fair) then I can see the problem. Other than that, it's not a problem.

Of course, there's the occasional idiot . . . :rolleyes:

What are ya gonna do??? :cheese:

Ironmonger
24-11-2009, 04:55
What is this obsession with needing to know everything about the enemy army? Seriously, if there are rules for the units, I'll take all comers: just shows how much tactical acuem you have, how you're able to adapt to unforeseen situations, and-in my opinion-it's a lot more exciting if you don't know everything about everything on the field of battle.:angel:

TheStrategist
24-11-2009, 05:02
In all honesty, I see this and I am appalled. I will soon begin the arduous process of converting/changing half my army to a drop troop list (IA8), and the other half to an armoured company (IA1), because I really feel that the new IG codex has killed the army style that I played since the previous codex came out (anyone remember Firebase 4 article, "Blitzkrieg Tactica?"). Thus, I still wont be able to play my army as before, but at least I will have some other options to throw at my opponent.

*Note, this is my humble opinion, so please do not start spamming:wtf: or "Are you crazy?" or anything along those lines."*

And, after all this has been done, I should expect to walk into my GW store, and be refused to play by some 14 year old, who was barely born when I started with the hobby, just because he isnt even aware that FW exists?

I swear to god, this hobby gets better at every turn...

Dark_Templar
24-11-2009, 05:13
Honestly, these sorts of stories are a prime reason for why I am mostly in it for the hobby of modelling and painting, rather than gaming. As much as I have always liked the gaming side, it is a very very minimal part of the hobby for me now, and these sorts of threads remind me why.

DT.

darker4308
24-11-2009, 05:19
i think the key is this ... if your going to do FW ... don't do pickup games. That's about it. Every big game i've played has been planned. Plan ahead.

threewolftats
24-11-2009, 05:32
just to throw this one out there, if i were to pitch up in a GW store with my mixed gender guard, what are the chances i would be refused a game?

(I realise some of my figs are not GW, but the list is legal and straight out of a codex)

TheStrategist
24-11-2009, 05:33
Lol. Then what the about the possibility of your opponent tailoring his list to better manage yours? Plus, I never know my friends (usual opponent) work schedule, erratic to say the least, hence the reason why I like going in to the store to see what the cat dragged in (we get a lot of passing-by opponents).

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 05:34
just to throw this one out there, if i were to pitch up in a GW store with my mixed gender guard, what are the chances i would be refused a game?

(I realise some of my figs are not GW, but the list is legal and straight out of a codex)

I don't think any player would turn you down, and no indie store would care, but GW stores seem to like to tell players what models they can or cannot play with sometimes. You'd catch flak from the staff before a player I'd imagine. There's no logical game reason to refuse to play that, and the rules themselves don't say that you must use Citadel models.

solkan
24-11-2009, 06:13
It's very nice and good that someone has purchased, assembled and painted a nice Forge World army.

On the other hand, I'd like to point out the two page forward in Imperial Armour Apocalypse, the most recent volume in the Imperial Armour update series, which has a two page forward addressing the question of the "legality" of Forge World models, and ends up with a nice paragraph which starts "As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebooks are official, everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will". So, there you have it an official statement in an official Games Workshop publication that the Forge World rules aren't official.

I can't imagine turning down someone who showed up and suggested playing a friendly game against their nicely painted resin army. I also can't imagine ever willingly playing someone who showed up with a Forge World army (or any other army, for that matter) and acted like they were entitled to play a game how they wanted to play. Do they still teach people how to play well with others these days?

AlmightyNocturnus
24-11-2009, 06:21
I was curious what the "F word" was...but Forgeworld? Really? People had a problem with that? That`s great that you made the Vraks renegade army (and painted it) and I`d love to get in a few games against you.
Oh, was it a tournament? That might might explain why you ran into some trouble. My experience at tounaments has been some people are just jacksticks and would rather "win" their match-up based on some forfeitable rules technicality than actually playing a game (and possibly losing). I`d say you just ran into some complete jackholes/jacksticks. Too bad.

Almighty Nocturnus

Satan
24-11-2009, 06:34
I absolutely love the FW books. It's always a treat to look at any of my SoV books and it's an expensive purchase I've never had cause to regret.

But the rules just aren't very good. I draw no conclusions as to their competitiveness, but they're full of blatant mistakes which sometimes has me wishing they would've let a couple of nutty folks on a warhammer forum before going to print. Even if it would've meant spilling large parts of the rules content out on the web.

That said, I for one, would be delighted to play an FW list both in a casual setting as well as in a tournament, though I can easily understand why someone would be opposed to the latter. Refusing casual games just goes to show how petty-minded and 'elitist' this hobby can be.

CthulhuDalek
24-11-2009, 06:35
I love Forgeworld Models and I think they're an excellent addition to the models we already use. My friend uses a forgeworld Avatar, and it looks great -- much better than GW's normal Avatar.

My main issue is with the rules FW creates for their armies etc. Sometimes they're cool, but it seems like they're not designed with balance in mind. Most FW units are better represented by current GW rules, or suited for apocalypse.

I think the main issue is that they're not *really* marked with GW's seal of approval, and that they're more often than not guided by the rule of cool(which 40k does a lot of to begin with!).

I mean... imo tank company rules were ludicrous, frankly. I'd play against your list if I was briefed about it beforehand etc etc.

ehlijen
24-11-2009, 06:41
He really doesn't. Tourny legality varies from organizer to organizer and often from year to year. FW is a subsidiary of GW, which really makes those rules as legit as anything else, they happen to include the disclaimer that they may not be as balanced as "official" GW codices, but they're certainly more legal than something some bloke wrote up in his basement.

Edit: Keep in mind that Tournies often ban units/powers/wargear from normal GW codices too, so they can hardly be considered to be the silver standard on what's to be allowed and what isn't

Way to ignore my point. There are two ways of thinking about what's allowed: The 'the rules are the rules' way, which exclude FW models due to the very disclaimer you mention and restrict themselves to the rulebook and what the rulebook allows (codices with their 'complete' rules for armies) and the 'whatever is fun is fun' way'. Those are the people who either allow FW, some of FW, FW and houserules, just houserules, ban certain codex things they don't consider fun etc.

Whether FW is a GW subsidiary or not doesn't matter. Most tournaments disallow FW for the very simple reason that FW books are harder to come by than codices and thus less likely to be widely known amongst the participants.

FW is fully aware that they are a niche supplement to a niche market and hence put in the disclaimer you mentioned.

But my point is: The game is meant to be fun. If you're willing to spend significant amounts of money on special books and models from a mail order store to enhance your already existing hobby, why are you unwilling to consider trying homebrew rules?

StefDa
24-11-2009, 06:46
I'd murder someone to get to play a guy with a Forgeworld list whose army is even painted.

StefDa
24-11-2009, 06:47
Commander Shadowsun is direct order from GW. So if I field her in my Tau army

I thought Shadowsun was on the sausage team??

noobzilla
24-11-2009, 06:49
Someone refused you a game because you came with painted models picked from a codex? That's crap.

I'd like to see more painted armies not just unpainted over and over again.

Arakanis
24-11-2009, 07:10
Way to ignore my point. There are two ways of thinking about what's allowed: The 'the rules are the rules' way, which exclude FW models due to the very disclaimer you mention and restrict themselves to the rulebook and what the rulebook allows (codices with their 'complete' rules for armies) and the 'whatever is fun is fun' way'. Those are the people who either allow FW, some of FW, FW and houserules, just houserules, ban certain codex things they don't consider fun etc.
I'm not ignoring your point, I just don't think it was very well made. Why in the world should the usage of FW which could be considered at the very least semi-official be same as some dudes completely unofficial fandex? I don't get that. FW puts out lists, units and models which for the most part are rather underwhelming. You really can't cry cheese there, and it's been playtested and generally accepted to be pretty much okay as far as lists go.



Whether FW is a GW subsidiary or not doesn't matter. Most tournaments disallow FW for the very simple reason that FW books are harder to come by than codices and thus less likely to be widely known amongst the participants. It really doesn't matter what tournaments allow, or why, because tournaments are generally neither official rulings of anything and are all different.



FW is fully aware that they are a niche supplement to a niche market and hence put in the disclaimer you mentioned. They also don't have the play-testing department GW has *Cue laughter* and know that what they make may or may not be fair with the rest of the game as codexes come and go.



But my point is: The game is meant to be fun. If you're willing to spend significant amounts of money on special books and models from a mail order store to enhance your already existing hobby, why are you unwilling to consider trying homebrew rules?
Who says I wouldn't be willing to try homebrew? But in the case of homebrew rules, I'm going to want to look ahead at them, in the case of FW I don't feel that I need to read all the rules there more than I need to read through your Imperial Guard codex before I play against you. If have any questions, you should have you codex/rules on hand anyways.

I think what he was saying is that FW rules are no better/no more official than just some random homebrew rules that anyone came up with, and I really cannot agree with that.

ehlijen
24-11-2009, 07:24
Because FW themselves say in their book preambles that they consider themselves an optional expansion?

Because no FW articles are sold in GW stores and are thus very hard to come by?

If you feel that you can blindly trust FW, that's good for you. By I see them as being equal to homebrew rules in that I want to know them before I say yay or nay.

I guess I saw it more as "Homebrew rules can be just as good as FW" rather than "FW is as bad as some homerules".

Faeslayer
24-11-2009, 07:38
There was a time when I thought Forgeworld stuff was just excellent models with a sort of almost-homebrewed, not-quite-official set of rules. I've come 'round, since but I can see someone having that opinion. Imagine your opponent coming to the table and plopping down models you've never seen, and explaining that the rules are in a mail-order rulebook you've never heard about... it could strike a newcomer to FW as pure shenanigans.

That, and some of the stuff is a bit zany, like flying superheavies. If you bring those to a normal 40k game without asking and the other player is less than thrilled, I'd say that's understandable in most circles.

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 07:41
I find it odd that people will play against a codex they've never played before and will never bother to buy or read the book without question if it's a normal $25 book, but sweet jesus if there's an FW unit involved they want to see everything about the unit and list beforehand in detail to pronounce divine judgement on it, despite the "official warhammer 40,000" and "Citadel" product stamps and the fact that it's produced by a wholly owned and operated subsidiary out of the same building as the rest of GW.


Because no FW articles are sold in GW stores and are thus very hard to come by? The same could be said of Dark Eldar. In fact, last time I was at an actual GW store, they had quite a large selection of Forgeworld models and books. They didn't have Dark Eldar. At all. Should they only be allowed by opponents permission as well?

bossfearless
24-11-2009, 07:44
I think Forgeworld is great, and can be used to add an interesting variant or two to your army. I also think they have ridiculously broken cheese shuffled in now and again, but so does GW. Flyers, in particular, exist outside the normal rule set and can't be fought by some armies at all. A big problem with FW rules is that, if someone's gonna use them at all, they have a tendency to want to abuse them and also the specific interactions with codex rules. For instance (This was in 3rd ed, but still relevant), there was a guy who used to run an Ork air-force list that couldn't be killed because it was never technically on the table. The game was all about me passing on all my phases because no moves mattered, given the unlimited move and range of his models and their inability to be attacked back. Experiences like that completely ruin the FW experience for people. So while I do like Forge World, and nobody has a problem with me bringing a Helios to a tourney at my local store, they likely will have a problem after I spam Deathstorm Drop Pods and assault with an Ironclad out of a deep-striking Assault Vehicle just to be a jerk. Honestly, how beautifully broken is a first turn assault?

owen matthew
24-11-2009, 07:49
That sucks Mani, but on the brighter side, Forgeworld is picking up more than it has ever in the past, I think due to Appoc. Its just a matter of time... Maybe against people like that just use the models as proxy for a true IG composition, still a good army, and no tears from the odd baby.

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 07:51
I spam Deathstorm Drop Pods and assault with an Ironclad out of a deep-striking Assault Vehicle just to be a jerk. Honestly, how beautifully broken is a first turn assault?
I think the Lucius drop pod is about the only thing I'd say that FW truly has a balance issue with, not quite sure what they were thinking there. That said, it's one of dozens of models/alternatives/units that they have come out with. The vast majority of their stuff is intentionally overcosted generally to reduce the appearance of cheese. When GW takes something from FW, they typically make it cheaper and better. The BB became 134pts cheaper, harder to kill, and gained a ****huge big template. The Hydra went from 200pts to 75 and fieldable in squadrons, and also got its nifty "ignores moving fast cover saves" rule. The medusa got ridiculous AT boost, the Executioner went up about 25pts in cost but got better rear armor, triple the number of main gun shots, and access to better sponsons, and the Valkyrie became hugely cheaper with better armor, at the cost of losing it's flyer status, etc etc etc.

The deathwind drop pod is powerful, but it's also pretty much a one-shot deal that sucks up an HS slot IIRC and cost about as much as a dreadnought.

Binky
24-11-2009, 07:52
Because no FW articles are sold in GW stores and are thus very hard to come by?

All the GW stores around here stock the FW rulebooks and have done for years.


I'd rather have my opponent warn me in advance if he uses something uncommon. I would gladly play against a FW army, but if the opponent intents to use super heavy or gargantuan creatures, i'd prefer know in advance. It's usually a boring game when someone fields something the opponent have nothing to fight against.

If playing by the rules, your opponent couldn't just turn up for a regular game with a super heavy or gargantuan creature as they have to be fielded as a second detachment, same way that they couldn't turn up for a regular game with a GW Baneblade or Stompa etc.

unheilig
24-11-2009, 08:11
without forgeworld, my interest in 40k would be decidedly less.


find cooler people to play with.

IcedAnimals
24-11-2009, 08:14
I would play you without asking a single question. FW is 100% legit. People who think otherwise are misinformed. When most people see forgeworld models it is their APOC stuff. Not all forgeworld is APOC only and there are completely viable regular game lists.

FW = GW. GW stores carry FW products. As for the homebrew question.

FW is official. It isnt some guy sitting in his basement saying "lash is broken!" There is no comparison to FW and "homebrewed" rules. I will play against someone who uses FW without saying "let me see the rules and the book and review it first"

I will play someone who has SLIGHT home rules. (There was a thread about carapace armor on rough riders for example, id play him) However when your "homerules" has blatant drastic changes to improve your army. Or it has so many changes that in a quick review of your rules there are loopholes and such that I can miss that is taking things too far.

Satan
24-11-2009, 08:44
I will play against someone who uses FW without saying "let me see the rules and the book and review it first"

So would I, but the example of Plague Zombies in SoV 3 clearly shows that FW rules would benefit from a thorough read by someone with a gamer's perspective.

The Red Scourge
24-11-2009, 08:52
Forgeworld models look awesome.

The rules are poorly balanced at best, Forgeworld changes nothing about this.

The game is all about shoving cool models around.

So Forgeworld just enhances the gaming experience.

In the end the outcome doesn't matter. Its the game itself and the two persons playing it, if one is a git, it will be a waste of time :)

Thanatos_elNyx
24-11-2009, 09:02
If it was me I'd be wary of a FW list. They aren't always known for their balance (not that the Official stuff is).

But if you have brought your army all the way in the least I could do would be to look at the army list and if it didn't appear over powered from a cursory glance I would definately give you a game.

Marrak
24-11-2009, 09:31
The problem stems from what people have mentioned here; some of the Forge World rules make some things change the very nature of 40k's main rules and codex: Auto-fall back regardless of psychology, first turn charging ironclads, fast skimmers with markerlights (more of an issue during 4th), some pretty insane point costs both high and low for what you get. In effect, this changes the way some armies work, to the point of having them act in ways they were never intended or supposed to.

Ultimately, Forgewold makes amazingly wonderful models, but the rules are completely optional and do not seem to be well tested, or if they are, not outside the rulebook they're included in. This has given many, many players bad experiences with FW and often bring a knee-jerk reaction to denying most rules. Sometimes they are validated in this, but from what it sounds like you weren't this case.

It is something to keep in mind though; I have several people at my local GW who will play anyone and anything, but refuse to allow Forgeworld rules during games, simply due to the change on the metagame some of the FW rules cause.

alterade
24-11-2009, 09:58
I would love to see and to against your Army.
My Death Korps of Krieg is pissed off to be used as stand in Imperial Army.
And all my thunderers turn to rust.
Here in Austria its usally not allowed to play Forgeworld .
But a few play it , not at tournis or at a club , but at home .
And thats what really sucks , that overprized but cool looking minis are forbidden .
But if you have same friends where all is allowed then enjoy it .

Souleater
24-11-2009, 10:05
I'd ask to see the rules beforehand sure...but it is nice to play against something different.

I'd be much more inclined to refuse the guy you faced...no army list, no codex, poor gear representation....? Yeah, no thanks...too many guys with 'dodgy' memories for things.

fluffymcfluff
24-11-2009, 11:07
Thats just stupid, I would play you any time, FW or not just have fun.

Brother Loki
24-11-2009, 11:48
I'd love to play your army. In fact I'd love to own your army!

As far as I'm concerned the only things I'd want advance notice on are flyers, gargantuan creatures and super heavies, since those fundamentally change the nature of the game, and are almost impossible to deal with if you don't have the right tools. Other than that I'd play you without a second thought. Anyone that wouldn't isn't the sort of person I'd want to play with anyway, frankly.

I'm firmly of the opinion that FW should be as ubiquitously welcome as the normal codex stuff. However I also love narrative scenarios, asymmetric forces, house rules, special victory conditions, homebrew units, non-GW models and all that. I'm about as far from the 'must be official' mindset as its possible to get.

Born Again
24-11-2009, 12:15
This is the reason I try to stear clear of using FW stuff, as I don't want to have to get an opponent's permission to use my army. I don't want to run in to problems like you've described. If I came up against FW though, I'd never turn any one away and let them use anything as long as they have the book on hand, as I'm not as familiar with the units as general 40k stuff so will be wanting reference on stuff.

DaSpaceAsians
24-11-2009, 12:19
I actually understand your situation since some guy actually pulled off the same thing and actually started an anti-forgeworld "crusade" against me (Good thing it ended fast) and occasionally rants about the cheesyness of Forge World despite playing against 2 times in a year. Nowadays since the Vanquisher made into the Codex, he's ok with it but it's ok since it not longer the same strength. For some weird reason no one wants except my best gaming buddies want to play against my converted chimera autocannon citing it's an apocalypse only unit since it's forge world.

Commissar Vaughn
24-11-2009, 12:36
Saying that you refuse to play against Forgeworld stuff simply becouse it might be a bit hard seems a bit, well...girly to be honest. What are you all, men or mice? ;)

Theres nowt there that cant be killed and in most games youre unlikely to come up against the really big stuff without your opponent letting you know and you having the option to prepare for it.

Vegeta365
24-11-2009, 12:51
I find it odd that people will play against a codex they've never played before and will never bother to buy or read the book without question if it's a normal $25 book, but sweet jesus if there's an FW unit involved they want to see everything about the unit and list beforehand in detail to pronounce divine judgement on it, despite the "official warhammer 40,000" and "Citadel" product stamps and the fact that it's produced by a wholly owned and operated subsidiary out of the same building as the rest of GW.

The same could be said of Dark Eldar. In fact, last time I was at an actual GW store, they had quite a large selection of Forgeworld models and books. They didn't have Dark Eldar. At all. Should they only be allowed by opponents permission as well?

The FW books are actually sold in GW stores. Unlike homebrew fandex's. They started selling them in store when vraks 2 came out. And sell all of them. It saves paying the shipping charge.

Also from the top of page two, someone saying they played a gunline gaurd army and half their army ran off the back of the table. The heavy mortar rules do not allow you to knock models of the table. They would stop at the back of the board. So youre opponent was playing with his little resin model wrongly! The heavy mortar is very good for stopping youre opponent get near you. However they are 75pts each armed this way, and are incredibly easy to destroy as they are artillery. You just need one glancing hit on the artillery at armour 10. If you can not accomplish that with youre army then you probably don't have a balanced list!

Neffertech
24-11-2009, 13:16
I think the biggest reason some people don't allow FW in their games is indirectly because of cost. Subconsciously most of us equate the cost with the power level of a model. If we know Nothing about an army, we fire at the most impressive unit. We equate cost with power level, unconsciously.

So people who know nothing else about FW know that it's expensive, and in their minds it must therefor be powerful. Not that this has anything really to do with reality.

Revlid
24-11-2009, 13:32
I'd play your Forge World army any day, provided you had the list on hand for me to browse through - something I'd expect from any army I'd not played before.

However, I would suggest something:
Type up two army lists.
For one, you have your Servants of Decay - Plague Ogryns, Chemical Mortars, etc.
For the other, you have vanilla Imperial Guard. Plague Ogryns are Ogryns, Chemical Mortars are Mortars, etc.

That way, if someone objects to your Forge World (is it Imperial Armour? If so, there really shouldn't be any complaints) list, then you can just whip out your inarguably legal list.


Because no FW articles are sold in GW stores and are thus very hard to come by?

I have yet to enter a Games Workshop store where Imperial Armour books were not sold. I would expect the staff to have absolutely no problem with my using an army list I'd paid £45 in their store for.

Now, if another player has a problem with it, fair enough. But then, if another player refuses to play my entirely vanilla, codex army list I'll likewise have no problem - remember, EVERY army list in existence is Opponent's Permission Only.

Spider-pope
24-11-2009, 13:37
I'd murder someone to get to play a guy with a Forgeworld list whose army is even painted.

Pretty much my sentiments. I could possibly understand the refusal had you turned up with a couple of Titans without warning, but i cannot see why anyone would refuse to play an army because its Forgeworlds produced.

For a start, its a pick up game. Seriously, if you are that concerned about balance in a spur of the moment game, that has no reward for winning and is likely against someone you will never see again, then you need to re-examine your priorities.
And secondly, was your opponent blind? I would kill to play against a full Forgeworld army, why would anyone want to miss out on facing off against absolutely brilliant models? For most of us its probably as close to owning a Forgeworld army as we are going to get.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 14:15
Because FW themselves say in their book preambles that they consider themselves an optional expansion?

Because no FW articles are sold in GW stores and are thus very hard to come by?

If you feel that you can blindly trust FW, that's good for you. By I see them as being equal to homebrew rules in that I want to know them before I say yay or nay.

I guess I saw it more as "Homebrew rules can be just as good as FW" rather than "FW is as bad as some homerules".


/agree completly with this.

Lord Damocles
24-11-2009, 14:32
There are some FW units I wouldn't agree to play against (Lucius pattern Drop Pod springs to mind...), but so long as I could have a look at the army list in question (the actual rules, not just the units and points etc.) before the game I'd have no problems with Servants of Decay.

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 14:43
thats the great thing about the servants list, its a stripped down guard codex with none of the new stuff, most of its the same:

an armoured fist squad is an armoured fist squad, that command squad with a lascannon? theyre a command squad with a lascannon, if it looks like a leman russ then its safe to assume its a leman russ, the only differences would take all of 2 minutes to read and understand:

roll 2 dice when a squad is forced to take a LD test and thats the squads LD for the rest of the game, a chemical mortar has unique rules and so do plague ogryns, apart from that its a guard list, my problem is with people not even looking at the rules and just dismissing it out of hand, if you look at the rules and say no then cool but to take one look at the models themselves (and ignoring requests to at least look at the rules) then knock it back doesnt seem right

to go back to previous examples: lots of people havnt read every codex, say you havnt read codex: space marines, if sombody put down a vanguard vetran would you scream cheese then pack your stuff away or would you look at the codex first? same difference

ChrisMurray
24-11-2009, 14:47
I'd play a FW army, although I might spend too much time staring at your models to pay full attention to the game lol.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 14:48
No.. there is a difference between not reading GW books.. and FW books..

Im not paying $40-50 for some crappy FW book ill never use just to read about opponets rules.

And its not like there easy to get as GW books..

Most tourneys dont even allow FW rules for good reason.


If you want to use FW rules and units, just be used to people who don't want to deal with FW's rules.

Binky
24-11-2009, 15:05
And its not like there easy to get as GW books...

Walk into GW, pick up FW book, pay for it.

Tricky...

Lion El Jason
24-11-2009, 15:06
Sod those people, it says in the front of the FW books that you do not need opponents permission to use them, indeed it claims the idea is laughable.

I would expect anyone to have a copy of their army list to hand, including people who use FW lists.
And I'd expect everyone to use an up to date list so no using older lists even if the book is still in print.

Otherwise, its a game, you have official rules. Anyone saying they won't play you are just as dumb and just as silly as those people saying they refused to play against the SW codex.

Faeslayer
24-11-2009, 15:07
Walk into GW, pick up FW book, pay for it.

Tricky...

There haven't always been GW stores around, and in a lot of places there still aren't. Before they opened up a bunch around here I hardly saw FW anything, except at conventions.

In my experience, an independent stockist isn't gonna carry FW stuff.

I'm just trying to explain some of the lingering feeling in some minds that FW stuff is separate and different, mind. I could be wrong about the source of that feeling.

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 15:09
Sod those people, it says in the front of the FW books that you do not need opponents permission to use them, indeed it claims the idea is laughable.


wait i missed that, where is that written?

Lord Wasa
24-11-2009, 15:09
No.. there is a difference between not reading GW books.. and FW books..

Im not paying $40-50 for some crappy FW book ill never use just to read about opponets rules.

And its not like there easy to get as GW books..

Most tourneys dont even allow FW rules for good reason.


If you want to use FW rules and units, just be used to people who don't want to deal with FW's rules.

Just out of curiosity, what is this "good reason" you speak of?
And would you play forgeworld stuff? If not, why?

Lion El Jason
24-11-2009, 15:15
wait i missed that, where is that written?

Its in the intro to at least the first two IA books.

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 15:19
IA1 with all the imperial guard tanks? cool ive got that somwhere, cheers mate

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 15:23
Walk into GW, pick up FW book, pay for it.

Tricky...

Sorry, i live in the US.. In the midwest.. and there are no actuall games workshop stores within 200 miles probly even farther then that.

We have many many Independent game stores around.

A few of those are very well ran and wouldnt trade them for some GW store.

Far as i know, only way to get FW books around here is from FW's website.. in the UK.. and wait 5-8 weeks for delivery after paying a ton.

Ill buy their models that fit normal games, but not their books.

Brother Loki
24-11-2009, 15:27
Nobody's saying you should buy their books, the'yre just saying you shouldn't dismiss them out of hand without looking at your opponent's copy.

KaldCB
24-11-2009, 15:28
I would always play against forgeworld.
And i dont even have to look trough the rules, just a simple explanation on whats different
"hey, those mortars what do they do?"
It's not like your playing with your life as a bet!

To refuse to play against forgeworld units that are not super heavys, fliers, or gargantuan creatures is just stupid!

Trogdor
24-11-2009, 15:35
Personally, I wouldn't have any issue at all with an opponent using Forgeworld miniatures and the accompanying rules in a game - it provides a different challenge for both user and opponent and would provide a memorable experience for both. Heck, if we could agree on some sort of special scenario or mission for the game then even better.

I'm of the opinion that the quality of the game - especially the sense of narrative it creates - and the experience that both players have is far far more important than individual win/loss records, uber-l33t list builds and so on. The important things to remember are that fairness, perspicacity and manners cost nothing and that if you play like a cheating swine then that's what you'll be regarded as, legal list build or not!

Of course, this perhaps reflects the attitude of the other gamers in my group and some of you won't agree with anything I've just said but that is my take on the matter. Don't get too wound up!

orkz222
24-11-2009, 15:36
I would play your army.
Glance through the thread. Ppl talk about fw units can 1st turn charge - scouting orks deffkopter can do that. Infernus shell 1st turn run was in IA5faq. If ppl want to whine about OP/undercost fw units, there is always sw book.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 15:39
I also have to say..

I dont play Apoc..
I dont play Planetstrike.

And i doubt i ever will.

I prefer the base game, with base rules..

So my openion is one sided on it.

NightrawenII
24-11-2009, 15:43
I have no problems playing against FW stuff, well with exception of Flyers, Gargantuan creatures and Super-heavies.;)

But if you have printed army list and rules for any clarification it will be enough for me.

P.S. Im actually confused. Where are the rules for Lucius pattern drop-pod:confused:

Lion El Jason
24-11-2009, 15:46
P.S. Im actually confused. Where are the rules for Lucius pattern drop-pod:confused:

The IAvol2 FAQ (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/IA2Update28Aug.pdf).

gwarsh41
24-11-2009, 15:47
I allow forgeworld when I play people. In a pug (pick up game) i wouldnt be too happy if someone pulls a titan out of his bag and says its go time. I would still fight it just to see how I fair against it. With friends we allow all sorts of things. One of us likes to take it out of hand though. We let her proxy because she cant afford much and likes to play different armies and whatnot. She has a trigon and wanted to proxy another one, and a malanthrope. If she had the models, maybe.
I can only assume people wont play forgeworld because the name is associated with titans and +700pt models. They probably think youll have crazy stuff that will instant win, they should give it a shot.

Brother Loki
24-11-2009, 15:50
@Spyder - Fair enough. I'd suggest that you're only playing half the game, but if it works for you that's fine. I just think that the rules are the least important part of the whole 40k experience, but you're entitled to play however you want.

@Mannimarco - someone suggested writing up 2 versions of your army - one using the Vraks list and one using codex IG for those people who object to the former. I'd say that's probably the best solution overall.

The Red Scourge
24-11-2009, 15:52
Sod those people, it says in the front of the FW books that you do not need opponents permission to use them, indeed it claims the idea is laughable.

Well, you do need your opponents permission. Noones forcing anyone to play the game after all :p

But denying FW rules on the grounds of it having a certain logo on it, is like denying to play against Space Wolves painted in the wrong shade of grey :)

Inquisitor_Tolheim
24-11-2009, 15:54
There's nothing wrong with playing a FW list, particularly if you have a fully based and painted army. For what it's worth, I'd happily play against your army.

As many people have said, set up two lists if you're worried about it happening again (vanilla and FW), but try and encourage your opponents to play the FW rules once in a while. They might find that a bit of a change in the game can actually be more fun then playing Vanilla army #XYZ for the hundredth time.

Kriegfreak
24-11-2009, 15:55
Honestly, these sorts of stories are a prime reason for why I am mostly in it for the hobby of modelling and painting, rather than gaming. As much as I have always liked the gaming side, it is a very very minimal part of the hobby for me now, and these sorts of threads remind me why.

DT.

Amen man, well put.

Copella
24-11-2009, 16:09
I don't see any real issues with the OP's list, but it is when Fliers, super heavies, etc. are used things will get out of hand. If your opponent is using a basic list, than they have absolutely nothing that can deal with fliers. FW does have a good amount of very odd rules, and unbalanced things mixed in. For special scenarios or pre-planned games, there shouldn't be a problem at all. Both sides know what they are looking at, and can plan for it.
You do have to be careful with FW stuff. Saying that you don't need an opponent's permission to use FW is rather silly. At least be curtious and tell them your using it. Also, remember it goes both ways. If you plan on using FW toys, don't be surprised if they decide to bring/proxy something from FW rules as well.
Like most have said, some of the FW stuff is absolutely silly. It's a game, and meant to be fun to BOTH sides. Everyone needs to remember that. :(

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 16:11
@Spyder - Fair enough. I'd suggest that you're only playing half the game, but if it works for you that's fine. I just think that the rules are the least important part of the whole 40k experience, but you're entitled to play however you want.

@Mannimarco - someone suggested writing up 2 versions of your army - one using the Vraks list and one using codex IG for those people who object to the former. I'd say that's probably the best solution overall.

I dont feel im playing half the game.. ive read some of the FW rules.. and didnt care for them.

Ive been playing for 8-9 years now, and i dont think ive seen anyone in this area use FW rules.

i'm not shunning people who use FW rules.. im just saying some people dont care for them..

Player A is mad because Player B doesn't want to play against FW rules.. PLayer A says hes pathetic etc..

Isnt that the same as some player B's getting mad about people playing with that rule set ?

Its their choice.. long as they are polite about it.

Scenario 1
--------------
*if* i went to gaming shops and somone asked me to play a game and i felt like playing i would say sure, if they showed up with FW rules i would be annoyed that i wasn't informed about it.

And not sure if i would play the game after all.

Who would be the one to blame ? The one who randomly pulled out the FW rules or the one who was expecting to play a normal game ?

Scenario 2
--------------
We agree to play.. start playing, knowing that player A has FW rules in play, player whos not using those rules gets mad over the units..

That would be Player B being an ass... He agreed to play.. its a game.. get over it.

Scenario 3
------------
You ask me to play a game, i say sure, you then say you plan on using FW rules, i would then be able to ask you to play a normal list using non FW rules if i did not want to play against FW units...

Then player A has the choice to play a normal game, or be polite about it and find another opponet if he only wants to use FW rules.

Both players go on.. and has a fun day.. playing games they want.



All im saying.. Is if YOU want to use FW expansion rules.. be sure to do the following.

1) Inform your opponet that you plan to use FW units
2) Offer to let him read the rules on said unit.
3) If he accepts to play, have fun. If he doesn't no big deal, find another game.

Of course.. thats just my openion, based on the area that i play.

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 16:22
good point spyder, i always do carry the rules around and offer to let people rad them and the lists before we play (not btw heres the book now set up your army, i'll leave the book then go for a wander for a while) unfortunately its the mindset of "your not using it, im not reading the rules at all, im refusing to play you full stop"

Copella
24-11-2009, 16:28
good point spyder, i always do carry the rules around and offer to let people rad them and the lists before we play (not btw heres the book now set up your army, i'll leave the book then go for a wander for a while) unfortunately its the mindset of "your not using it, im not reading the rules at all, im refusing to play you full stop"

Hmm, odd. Are you known for using Fliers or any of the really nasty stuff?
I don't understand why someone would be that unwilling to have a game.

bocaj
24-11-2009, 16:30
I dont see why they didnt let you play. in my gaming group (probbaly the lazyest in the world) I frequently play against armies that hav about 100 men but only a tank n a squad painted or even models that hav got dammaged and is only the top half of a chaos marine

Col. Dash
24-11-2009, 16:30
I dont see very much unbalanced in FW. As has been said, most everything is very overpriced for what it does. Look at the Tau Tetra, badass little model, but overpriced for a 50 point bs3 markerlight. I use FW as standard in all my armies and havent ran into problems. I go by the idea that FW is perfectly fine unless its a superheavy or flyer. If someone has an issue, then I find someone else to play. I spent the money for GW models, I AM entitled to play them in a GW game.

As to an early post I think from Squeamish, those heavy mortars that hit did cheat you. Inferno rounds do force a fallback move if hit(not wounded) however fearless models and models that never fall back, nids, cult troops, etc, really dont care if they are on fire and are unaffected by this secondary rule.

Treadhead_1st
24-11-2009, 16:40
I always allow Forgeworld, except for Titans/Gargantuan Creatures below 2K points.

I am not surprised by the tone of this thread - I've had my Guard army refused a game because it contained a single Forgeworld model - a Centaur for my 5-man Storm Troopers.

Apparently, ALL Forgeworld is broken and cheesey, according to this one player, and I was a cheat for asking permission to use it. He then demanded that someone verified my list whenever I played against him (as I was clearly a cheater - safe to say I soon stopped playing him); and when playing against other people he'd wander up to the table, grab my list and start inspecting it to "protect everyone against the cheater" and would start questioning me/my opponents on what wargear certain units were using, whether I was really fielding X or Y and so on.

Fortunately I moved away from that area, but I'm now apprehensive about using my custom-build jeep (technically a "pinky" long-base British Military land-rover) as a Centaur, rules-wise it's a perfect fit - but it's not even an official model now; or perhaps a Conqueror as the model is so awesome (and it's rules now don't suck too badly).

I know that this was one person being an unreasonable ****, but experience has taught me that there will be a **** wherever you go, hence the apprehension.

Brother Loki
24-11-2009, 17:07
@Treadhead - That's a problem with the player, not the rules. I'd probably have said to that person that they were being an idiot and asked them not to speak to me again or interrupt my games.

@Col Dash - in the first printing of the Griffon/heavy mortar's infernus shells it specified that fearless troop did have to fall back. This was later reversed in subsequent printings and FAQs. It's quite possible that the player had the original rules and didn't know they'd been changed - no need to assume cheating on anyone's part.

hendybadger
24-11-2009, 17:34
I hope I never come across players like that. Im building a Grey Knight army and I want to add a new FW GK Redeemer. Not because I want a super-power tank, just because I like it and think it fits the army well.
I would play anyone with FW units or armies. The only problem I would see is if someone put a super heavy in a normal game. But if they said before hand I could add one myself to make it more fun. Or ask for a normal no SH game.
Even then, it could be a fun challenge that you dont usually get the play against.

Col. Dash
24-11-2009, 17:48
Ahh my bad, I will have to look at my older printings. I was going by the Vraks 1 listing. I bought three a month ago, and they only took a week to come in which I was amazed by, and I had bought them without ever seeing the rules. For me they fit the look and theme of my army. When I read about inferno rounds, that was just icing on the cake heheh and will hopefully keep opponents troops further away so my Colossus have more time to fire.

brain_dead_1st
24-11-2009, 17:50
If an army is beardy I won't play it more than once!
If a guy fields forgeworld stuff in quantities I can't read the rules before then I expect no qualms with me asking to read every rule they are using.
This leads to a slow ponderous game BUT I will play it again if I feel the army style is of a fair build. I can afford FW models myself but chose to stick with 3 reverent titans rather than lots of small models as titans are cool. But fair play if you invest in the little guys.

If you are using forgeworld items you do HAVE to let your opponent know in advance
FW are not GW they are a sister company. Not technically Citadel minatures.

Summary, just let your opponent know before hand so he/she can't be a dick!

Brother Loki
24-11-2009, 18:09
FW are not GW they are a sister company. Not technically Citadel minatures.

Actually they are just a department within Games Workshop Plc. Companies House doesn't list them as a separate company.


Summary, just let your opponent know before hand so he/she can't be a dick!

That's the gist of the whole thing really. Both sides just need to show some consideration for the other.

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 18:17
I don't really want to learn the rules for an "unofficial" army I will play maybe one time when I could play anyone else. If you were my friend then it would be different but if it's just a random pickup game I'd rather just chill with a regular opponent that I know what to expect. Additionally Forgeworld designs stuff in reverse. They think up what would look really cool, then throw together some rules around it. Sometimes this means that the unit will be useless or other times it makes them crazy over the top. While GW's general playtesting is weak, with Forgeworld it really doesn't exist since it's not designed for anything other than an excuse for people to show off their cool models on a tabletop.

Also saying I should be buying $80 books (op didn't claim this but I've seen that opinion banded around in the thread)so I can understand how someone else's army works is ludicrous. The few times I've seen IA books in GW stores that have been plastic wrapped so they aren't damaged by people flipping through them so it's impossible for me to read up on this stuff using legal methods outside of spending a ton of money. That alone is a deterrent.

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 18:24
its a detterent yes but it wouldnt be if your opponent is leaving you the book and army list to go through

as long as you have enough time to pick through the rules and the list there really shouldnt be any need to knock it back, after all its not like your not having rules sprung on you during the game if you are left to look through the book and list while the guy who want to use his forgeworld models goes off and does somthing for a while

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 18:35
Like I said if you were a friend I would have no problem. However if you are some random pickup and there are other people to play I would choose the game where I didn't have to learn a bunch of new stuff (and distinguish if it's the "fair" type of Forgeworld stuff) that I will more than likely see very rarely.

Gwyidion
24-11-2009, 18:36
My point from page 2 is that there is a single obvious definition of what is legal from a rules-are-rules standpoint - the core rule book, and all the official codecies published by GW itself.

If you are going to use something else, FW, FAQs, etc, the way you define what is legal to bring to a game, the line you draw between legal and not-legal, is entirely arbitrary. I feel that from a balance standpoint, I can trust your FW list as much as you can trust my custom fandex list - both are ostensibly balanced, but only that.

As far as i'm concerned, if you are showing up to a venue to play a random person in a pool for a tourney or just whoever happens to be there, don't expect to be able to use a non-standard codex. If you are setting up a game... hell, whatever everyone agrees on goes.

The Occult
24-11-2009, 18:40
Where does this idea that forgeworld doesn't playtest their rules come from?
From their website on the page that lists all their new rules for new models:

The rules presented here are Experimental. Experimental rules are still under development, they are not the final version. Experimental rules will change over time before a final version is published.
They go even further than GW does and ask the players to give the rules a try and get feedback from there. I know, I know, you are going to bring up that 'only the players with the models will spam forgeworld to make their precious toys cheesier.' Do you really think the people at forgeworld are that daft to not see through someone saying 'OMG MAKE X RULE EVEN HARDER LOL I PAYED FOR THE MODEL'?
In my experience, the people who are dedicated enough to collect and paint forgeworld models tend to be more on the mature end of the spectrum.

I think all it boils down to really is that some people just get this satisfaction out of saying "my army is legal, yours is not. that means that you are a cheater and that I automatically win because I am morally superior." If they have a book, are willing to let you read it, explain the rules and what models are what, have an army that looks awesome - why not play a game? I mean, you can always say after the game that "I felt X was not fair, could you not take it against me next time?" if it really is that necessary.

airmang
24-11-2009, 18:43
I've seen reactions like this alot more frequently. It seems to based in fear. Some folks are so afraid that they are going to be at, even a slight, disadvantage, that they will not do anything different to "spice" up their game. The idea of having to come up with new tactics, or face something unknown, is a horrible concept for some. Unfortunately I think this really hurts the gaming groups out there. Even trying out new missions, or the various expansions, scares them, and they won't do it voluntarily.

I can remember when Planetstrike came out, and it was like pulling teeth to get anyone to even try it. It's gotten to the point where it's just rather boring playing the game...

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 18:48
I've seen reactions like this alot more frequently. It seems to based in fear. Some folks are so afraid that they are going to be at, even a slight, disadvantage, that they will not do anything different to "spice" up their game. The idea of having to come up with new tactics, or face something unknown, is a horrible concept for some. Unfortunately I think this really hurts the gaming groups out there. Even trying out new missions, or the various expansions, scares them, and they won't do it voluntarily.

I can remember when Planetstrike came out, and it was like pulling teeth to get anyone to even try it. It's gotten to the point where it's just rather boring playing the game...

You have your openion, some of us have ours.

I like playing against new armies.. i just could care less about FW.

Ive read Apoc Rules
Ive read Planetstrike rules

I have no motivation to play either, and that is my choice.

People like you who assume people dont want to play against FW rules is automatically somone who doesnt want to find new tactics or play against something new.. because that is not true at all.

Spice up the game ? Eh, not really, i play custom / new missions for that, or a different style army / armylist.

Lion El Jason
24-11-2009, 18:52
My point from page 2 is that there is a single obvious definition of what is legal from a rules-are-rules standpoint - the core rule book, and all the official codecies published by GW itself.

If you are going to use something else, FW, FAQs, etc, the way you define what is legal to bring to a game, the line you draw between legal and not-legal, is entirely arbitrary. I feel that from a balance standpoint, I can trust your FW list as much as you can trust my custom fandex list - both are ostensibly balanced, but only that.

As far as i'm concerned, if you are showing up to a venue to play a random person in a pool for a tourney or just whoever happens to be there, don't expect to be able to use a non-standard codex. If you are setting up a game... hell, whatever everyone agrees on goes.

Utter nonsense. Seriously this whole post is just silly.

You're saying by "Choosing" to use FAQs you are changing what you're supposed to play?

What a ridiculous statement.

Imperial Armour books are published by GW and are official rule books. Suggesting that anything but the core book and codexes are somehow "Not official" makes no sense and goes against even the rulebook and what GW says!

There is a line between legal and not-legal; it's easy to tell what GW publishes and that's what's legal. Anything else is an arbitrary restriction similar to saying "no AV14 vehicles" or "No space Wolves".
While it's true that you always have to agree to every game (A game is an agreement between the two players) anything other than playing by GWs rules is basically playing "House Rules" not standard 40k. If I go for a pick up game I will be playing 40k, not some crazy variant where Forge World, Space Wolves and the avatar are banned for no good reason.

boogle
24-11-2009, 18:57
You can buy FW books in every GW store, I've bought the last 3 from there and they have no problems with me using any units (or armies for that matter)

Why should someone who has invested a lot of money and time (because FW models do take more prep work than the plastic metal models) not be allowed to play with their army.

to the OP, find some people who are like-mided and just stick with playing them

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 18:59
FW are not GW they are a sister company. Not technically Citadel minatures. Yes they are Citadel actually. They all use the citadel trademark and the Citadel stamp is put on the books.

unheilig
24-11-2009, 19:03
Utter nonsense. Seriously this whole post is just silly.

You're saying by "Choosing" to use FAQs you are changing what you're supposed to play?

What a ridiculous statement.

Imperial Armour books are published by GW and are official rule books. Suggesting that anything but the core book and codexes are somehow "Not official" makes no sense and goes against even the rulebook and what GW says!

There is a line between legal and not-legal; it's easy to tell what GW publishes and that's what's legal. Anything else is an arbitrary restriction similar to saying "no AV14 vehicles" or "No space Wolves".
While it's true that you always have to agree to every game (A game is an agreement between the two players) anything other than playing by GWs rules is basically playing "House Rules" not standard 40k. If I go for a pick up game I will be playing 40k, not some crazy variant where Forge World, Space Wolves and the avatar are banned for no good reason.


can i refuse to play anyone who brings AP3 or better weapons?

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 19:09
Why should someone who has invested a lot of money and time (because FW models do take more prep work than the plastic metal models) not be allowed to play with their army.

to the OP, find some people who are like-mided and just stick with playing them

I don't know ask Games Workshop.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=300005&section=&pIndex=4&aId=3400027&start=5

If someone really doesn't want to play against something outside the norm there's nothing you are going to do to change that. I agree that if you want to play a list like that you should find people that are cool with it and have fun with them but understand that no one is forced to and almost all tournies don't allow it outside stuff like Adepticon Gladiator matches or whatever.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 19:12
I don't know ask Games Workshop.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=300005&section=&pIndex=4&aId=3400027&start=5

If someone really doesn't want to play against something outside the norm there's nothing you are going to do to change that. I agree that if you want to play a list like that you should find people that are cool with it and have fun with them but understand that no one is forced to and almost all tournies don't allow it outside stuff like Adepticon Gladiator matches or whatever.


That link is perfect :P

and yea, its very rare to see a Tourney that allows FW rules..

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 19:14
GT's and tournament rules are not the arbiters of what is legal or not outside of that specific event. GT rules vary from country to country and time to time and even to event, and are not in any way supposed to be how people determine what is legal for normal play, but people still do for some reason. What was legal at the 1850pts US GT in 2007 was not always legal in the 1500pt UK GT, which then changed for the 2008 1750pt US GT, etc ad nauseum.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 19:19
GT's and tournament rules are not the arbiters of what is legal or not outside of that specific event. GT rules vary from country to country and time to time and even to event, and are not in any way supposed to be how people determine what is legal for normal play, but people still do for some reason. What was legal at the 1850pts US GT in 2007 was not always legal in the 1500pt UK GT, which then changed for the 2008 1750pt US GT, etc ad nauseum.

Thats true, but what GT has allowed FW rules ?

What large tourney besides like Gladiator at Adepticon allow FW rules ?

This is far to much coming down to Tourney players vs Casual Players on wanting to use FW rules.

Either way... People should just accept that if you want to use non basic rules (which FW is) ask first.. Its easier.. save some time..

------------
People saying that ones using FW rules should be good because of their models takes more time ?..

Pfft..

Ive seen some horribly painted FW models, and i have some FW models in my normal armies.. whats the difference ? how long the models take to do or cost has no effect on the rules...

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 19:22
Thats true, but what GT has allowed FW rules ?

What large tourney besides like Gladiator at Adepticon allow FW rules ? None, but some GT's never allowed Armored Companies while some allowed them until 2007 when GW dumped all the chapter approved/eye of terror/armageddon stuff. Just because a tournament doesn't allow it, that doesn't stand as reasoning that it's some horrific pariah thing. It's just not a standard that one should use for determining legality. I play in tournaments regularly, I don't base what is legal off of them, not the least bit of reason why is because *every* event, from GT's to store tourneys to independent events all have their own rules.

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 19:22
I have yet to see a GW tournament where I could bring a Baneblade or flier outside of one where that was the entire gimmick. Some people want to play against what is considered the "main game" and not use what is basically expansion packs. Like it or not, GTs influenced how people perceive what is legal in the overall game both in and outside of tournaments.

No matter how much you stomp your feet you can't force them to play you and acting ******** isn't going to change their opinion on what is legal or not, especially since many people have never even seen an Imperial Armor book let alone read one.

boogle
24-11-2009, 19:25
That's already invalid as it allows Space Marines to use traits, which now don't exist.

It says in IA that it's up to the players to agree what you can use, so if the opposition player won't play your FW list, you have EVERY right to say 'that's fine, i'll play with a normal list, BUT I don't agree to you using xxxxx, xxxxxxx and xxxxx unit because I personally think it's overpowered', you'd come across as a bit of a douche for doing so, but then again, it's a case of douche one-upsmanship.

As for those saying that they don't want to learn the rules from a FW ruleset, as has been stated by the OP, the Plague Ogryns and Chemical Mortars are 2 units that are additions to what is essentially a stripped down IG list, i'd have more problems learning everything that's new in the SW list, however I would be asking my opponent to explain what does what and would have absolutely no problem explaining what everything did in my army.

I personally can't wait to start and complete my Elysian list as it's going to essentially be an IG list with Drop Sentinels (ooooo i wonder what their rules could be???) and Vultures (yes they share the same rules as Valkyires in the update, so are skimmers now as well as Flyers in Apoc)

Lion El Jason
24-11-2009, 19:26
can i refuse to play anyone who brings AP3 or better weapons?

It makes as much sense as disallowing FW stuff.

Tourneys are different, all tourneys have bizarre and non explained restrictions... that's part of what tourneys are about.

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 19:27
What is always legal is the standard current edition (or latest if none is available) codex. I have yet to see a GW tournament where I could bring a Baneblade or flier outside of one where that was the entire gimmick. Baneblades would require 2 FoC's to play, they aren't intended for tournament play. They also aren't representative of the vast majority of FW stuff, and in fact is entirely a GW thing now.


Some people want to play against what is considered the "main game" and not use what is basically expansion packs. Like it or not, GTs influenced how people perceive what is legal in the overall game both in and outside of tournaments. I realize this, but it's convention, nothing more. There is absolutely no definition of legality anywhere from GW in the rules.



No matter how much you stomp your feet you can't force them to play you and acting ******** isn't going to change their opinion on what is legal or not, especially since many people have never even seen an Imperial Armor book let alone read one.This isn't 4chan, leave the "********" posts there.


Most people have never seen, or will ever see, a Dark Eldar book. Should this make them illegal?

electricblooz
24-11-2009, 19:28
GT's and tournament rules are not the arbiters of what is legal or not outside of that specific event. GT rules vary from country to country and time to time and even to event, and are not in any way supposed to be how people determine what is legal for normal play, but people still do for some reason. What was legal at the 1850pts US GT in 2007 was not always legal in the 1500pt UK GT, which then changed for the 2008 1750pt US GT, etc ad nauseum.

There's a difference between "legal" and "standard." By defintion, since FW is a subsidiary of GW it is "legal" but I'd wager that most people do not consider it "standard."

Standard varies by area and the age of the players. I would bet that many of the players from my generation still think of Rogue Trader tourney rules as the "standard" definition of army construction. Additionally, I would bet that a fairly large minority of posters in this thread don't even know what the Rogue Trader composition rules were. When a person goes in specifically for "pick-up games" (props to whomever dubbed it a "pug" - that's a good slang term for it), that individual is going with some expectation of what a typical or "standard" game would involve. It is just as unfair to characterize such a person as "girly," "a tool," "fearful," etc. (to quote some of the more bombastic posters in this thread) because they are unwilling to deviate from their understanding of a standard game as it is to characterize people who play with FW as "chessy," "beardy," etc.

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 19:38
I can walk into a GW and there is an open copy of the Dark Eldar book. The ones near me have recently taken it off the shelf since they are not popular and take up book rack space but still have the store copy in the back in case someone wants to look at the rules. Even in stores where IA are sold (I've seen them at one) there have few copies of some of the books and are sealed. Worst case scenario I can get a Dark Eldar codex for $20. I can get access to the Dark Eldar book before playing a game which I can not do with most IA books without actually buying or reading over one during a game with a guy using that army.

Regardless the fact is that most people don't consider Forgeworld "standard" or balanced (if it is or isn't is irrelevant). If you don't like it find people that don't care but getting in a pissing match about it isn't going to make people want to play you anymore than they did already.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 19:38
It says in IA that it's up to the players to agree what you can use, so if the opposition player won't play your FW list, you have EVERY right to say 'that's fine, i'll play with a normal list, BUT I don't agree to you using xxxxx, xxxxxxx and xxxxx unit because I personally think it's overpowered', you'd come across as a bit of a douche for doing so, but then again, it's a case of douche one-upsmanship.



Yes.. that would be a good example of a person not wanting to play against FW rules and the person using the FW rules being a total ass.

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 19:42
Yes.. that would be a good example of a person not wanting to play against FW rules and the person using the FW rules being a total ass.

Seriously. I don't know what's so hard to understand about most GW players not thinking Forgeworld as standard and if a guy lets you use them he's cool but it's not a personal insult if he doesn't want to play against it.

Dyrnwyn
24-11-2009, 19:42
You have your openion, some of us have ours.

I like playing against new armies.. i just could care less about FW.

Ive read Apoc Rules
Ive read Planetstrike rules

I have no motivation to play either, and that is my choice.

People like you who assume people dont want to play against FW rules is automatically somone who doesnt want to find new tactics or play against something new.. because that is not true at all.

Spice up the game ? Eh, not really, i play custom / new missions for that, or a different style army / armylist.
I've only ever played one Apoc game. Never played Planetstrike. I use Forgeworld rules for a single model in my Tau Army - my Commander is in an XV-81 suit. Which is a suit which has all it's hard points taken up by weapons, and has a Smart Missile System occupying one of them. I already use non-GW models for my commander and Broadsides, so I'll be explaining what they are anyway.

It's not a superheavy, it's not a gargantuan creature, it's not a flyer. I don't even expect you to know what it is - I carry around a photocopies of the relevant page of IA3 for my opponents - and there's no bizarre equipment on it that isn't in the Tau codex. You'd refuse to play me in a regular game because I have one Forgeworld model, on the basis of 'I don't do Apoc/Planetstrike' ?


That link is perfect :P

and yea, its very rare to see a Tourney that allows FW rules..
Local tourneys around here have allowed FW items in the past. As has been said, it's up to the tournament organizer to decide what's legal. If the guy organizing the tourney thinks Space Wolves are cheezy, he can decide to disallow Space Wolves. It doesn't make Space Wolves any less official than it does Forgeworld.

Personally, I love FW. I don't do Apoc, or Planetstrike, but I love seeing FW models. I'll play against FW anytime, but I hope you have the rules for your FW stuff at hand for me to reference. The vast majority of excuses I've seen for not playing against FW units or lists don't make any sense to me, though I can understand not wishing to play against rules you've never seen if you can't reference the relevant rulebook for them. I know alot of people who play with FW unit don't enjoy lugging the book with them - they're often twice as big as a BRB and three times as heavy, but that's the price you pay for playing with them.

EDIT:

I can walk into a GW and there is an open copy of the Dark Eldar book.
I can't. There isn't a GW within a thousand miles of me. I've been in this hobby for 6 years - I've seen a Dark Eldar book ONCE. I've seen 3 different copies of IA3 multiple times, two copies of IA1 and IA2 and a copy of IA4 several times. The local store hasn't stocked DE models or the codex for as long as I can remember. It HAS sold IA books however. Rarely in stock, but it has done so.

boogle
24-11-2009, 19:45
No it's about both players agreeing to try and have a fun game, if one person gives half arsed explanation as to why they don't want to play FW 'i don't know the rules, and don't have time to learn them', then the other player has the right to give an equally half arsed retort to something that would detract from his enjoyment of the game.

I had an elysian army (minus the flyers) i played numerous games (the drop sentinels being the only thing that wasn't available to 'standard' GW IG armies), I lost every game, but both myself and my oppenents had great games and never once was i questioned about the fact they were FW or refused to play me, equally i was allowed to write, leave in store and playtest with a homebrewed Arbites codex in my old GW store.

I have a feeling that most (but not all) of those against playing FW lists are WAAC players and predominantly tourney players, whereas those who are happy to play with/against FW armies/units are those that like to have fun in their games and not take things too seriously.

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 19:48
At most GW stores saying you don't want to play against FW is nothing extraordinary but saying that someone can't use specific stuff out of the on-the-shelf codex will get you labeled as "that guy" so the analogy is not that good.

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 19:48
I can walk into a GW and there is an open copy of the Dark Eldar book. The ones near me have recently taken it off the shelf since they are not popular and take up book rack space but still have the store copy in the back in case someone wants to look at the rules. Even in stores where IA are sold (I've seen them at one) there have few copies of some of the books and are sealed. Worst case scenario I can get one for $20. I can get access to the Dark Eldar book before playing a game which I can not do with most IA books without actually buying or reading over one during a game with a guy using that army. The last GW store I went to had available copies of every FW book for browsing. That said, while most independents (much more prevalent in the US than GW stores) won't have FW stuff, I've yet to find one that had DE anything, of all the stores I've played at, I think one has a store copy of the DE book, that is usually kept at the owners home anyway.

Either way, I still find it amusing how uptight people get about FW, when they will play against a normal codex list even if they'd never played against that army before with no questions asked regardless of whether they have any idea whats in the book or not, but they'll damn sure want to see your list and the unit entry in the IA book before even considering it if you've got a FW unit in there :rolleyes:



Regardless the fact is that most people don't consider Forgeworld "standard" or balanced (if it is or isn't is irrelevant). If you don't like it find people that don't care but getting in a pissing match about it isn't going to make people want to play you anymore than they did already.Who said anything about getting in a pissing match about it? Again, take that elsewhere. I'd just mentally note to look for different games.

Edonil
24-11-2009, 19:55
Yes.. that would be a good example of a person not wanting to play against FW rules and the person using the FW rules being a total ass.

How is it any different from your position of there's nothing wrong with someone just flat out saying 'no' without taking any look at the list or the unit rules merely because it's Forgeworld? From my perspective, it's the same attitude. And I'll have you know that I play only 'standard' 40k- no Apoc, no Planetstrike. No desire to. And you're hardly representative of that grouping, because I've got a gaming group of 20 or so people where a small minority play Apoc and Planetstrike, and none of us have issues with Forgeworld in pickup games or tournaments, all we ask is that you have the rules and tell us what's what when we ask. So please, stop giving those of us who only play 'normal' 40k a bad name, would you?

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 19:59
Who said anything about getting in a pissing match about it? Again, take that elsewhere. I'd just mentally note to look for different games.

What do you think arguing over whether or not a book is legal or not is?

I can't understand how "no I don't really want to play against your non-standard army, thanks" leads to anything other than finding someone that wants to.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 20:00
I have a feeling that most (but not all) of those against playing FW lists are WAAC players and predominantly tourney players, whereas those who are happy to play with/against FW armies/units are those that like to have fun in their games and not take things too seriously.


Far from a WAAC player here .. and id rather not play against FW rules.

I dont care if they are sub par rules, or rules over the top.

-------
What im starting to get from this thread.. If you choose to not play against FW rules.. you are..

WAAC player
Tourney Player
Sore loser crying about OP units
or a sad sad person ?


Sorry but its becoming sad that the thread is about people not wanting to play against certain FW units to how people who choose not to play against FW rules (which there is alot of) are the above ?


Just to say..

Why i dont play against FW rules.

1) Books are not accessible. here
2) The rules i have read are random at times
3) Its not the normal around here for anyone to even use FW rules
4) It has been and always will be a non "standard" extra set of rules for normal games.



If im asked to play a game.. somone asks if they can use FW rules, and i decide politley i dont want to deal with FW rules that day.

They get mad and pull a ill play you with a normal list if you dont use this and this like some little kid.

id tell them where to shove it, and wouldnt care if i ever played a player like that.

devlin
24-11-2009, 20:00
i think alot of players out there see forge world stuff as apocalypse based but i agree that alot of fw models are fairly heavy on the points for what they are

boogle
24-11-2009, 20:06
Far from a WAAC player here .. and id rather not play against FW rules.

I dont care if they are sub par rules, or rules over the top.

-------
What im starting to get from this thread.. If you choose to not play against FW rules.. you are..

WAAC player
Tourney Player
Sore loser crying about OP units
or a sad sad person ?


Sorry but its becoming sad that the thread is about people not wanting to play against certain FW units to how people who choose not to play against FW rules (which there is alot of) are the above ?


Just to say..

Why i dont play against FW rules.

1) Books are not accessible. here
2) The rules i have read are random at times
3) Its not the normal around here for anyone to even use FW rules
4) It has been and always will be a non "standard" extra set of rules for normal games.



If im asked to play a game.. somone asks if they can use FW rules, and i decide politley i dont want to deal with FW rules that day.

They get mad and pull a ill play you with a normal list if you dont use this and this like some little kid.

id tell them where to shove it, and wouldnt care if i ever played a player like that.

So if someone new moves to your area and has FW models AND rules, you'd ostracise them, just because YOU don't play anything other than 'standard' 40K, then contradict yourself by playing custom missions which are not 'standard' either?

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 20:12
So if someone new moves to your area and has FW models AND rules, you'd ostracise them, just because YOU don't play anything other than 'standard' 40K, then contradict yourself by playing custom missions which are not standard either?

If somone chose to not want to play non standard missions, and use normal ones in the book, i would say ok, that is perfectly acceptable.

My choice to play non standard missions is the same as somones choice to use FW rules.

I will ask my opponet before the game

I never said somone couldnt use FW models, i myself own a few FW models, i just dont use the rules.


When i see people using FW rules.. its mainly.. Im using the transports out of IA# whatever because they are better then what i have in my basic codex.

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 20:14
So if someone new moves to your area and has FW models AND rules, you'd ostracise them, just because YOU don't play anything other than 'standard' 40K, then contradict yourself by playing custom missions which are not 'standard' either?

If the person has any social abilities the correct way would be to use rules that the community is familiar with (proxy Forgeworld stuff using a regular codex) until he makes some friends and then ask some of them if they would like the new experience of going against some cool stuff they are unfamiliar with.

Pulling a "fine I won't let you use YOUR stuff if I can't do this!!" is going to be met with him getting a crappy reputation more than anything else.

boogle
24-11-2009, 20:14
When i see people using FW rules.. its mainly.. Im using the transports out of IA# whatever because they are better then what i have in my basic codex.

Is this a problem? And from my perspective (i own all FW books), the only vehicle that is better from FW than the standard codex is the Repressor for Sisters, everything else is overcosted for what it does, bu that just adds to the fun.

Ixquic - seeing as FW books are now becoming self contained entities in terms of army lists, why should someone be forced by someone else to buy a book they may not want, just to play a game, when they have a perfectly valid book and army list?

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 20:19
Is this a problem? And from my perspective (i own all FW books), the only vehicle that is better from FW than the standard codex is the Repressor for Sisters, everything else is overcosted for what it does, bu that just adds to the fun.

To me ? Yes.

There is a difference in a FW army and somone using FW rules.


Person using a normal codex, and only mixing in units to make a stronger list because FW varient is better i will not ever consider playing against.

If the option is in your codex, then use that option.



If a person is using a FW ruled army, for fluff / looks difference.

Then it is different, for example. The OP's army. Plague Orgyrns ? Assuming they are a FW unit, sound neat.

If ive had time to read the rules they are going to use, i wouldn't just say no.

If im wanting to have a game to test a list to purchase a new set of units, then probly not.

but of course.. this thread has got derailed to somone who doesnt allow all FW units all the times should be shunned is sad...

DuskRaider
24-11-2009, 20:22
So because you don't use the rules, no one else can in your eyes?

And to those calling Forge World rules users WAAC players- Get a life. Have you looked at the Siege of Vraks? The Renegade Militia is using IG rules from the last codex, we get a SINGLE tank in Heavy Support. Sure, we get Power Armor, but at what cost? We lose a lot of options, we can't really field a mech army except for IA:7 (Sorry Khorne players!), and the new troops we got aren't half as broken as some basic troops in other OFFICIAL CODICES.

I think those players who use the OFFICIAL CODEX and field 18 tanks or 9 fliers are even cheesier then someone using rules that are not really powerful, per say, but fit a great theme.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 20:24
So because you don't use the rules, no one else can in your eyes?

And to those calling Forge World rules users WAAC players- Get a life. Have you looked at the Siege of Vraks? The Renegade Militia is using IG rules from the last codex, we get a SINGLE tank in Heavy Support. Sure, we get Power Armor, but at what cost? We lose a lot of options, we can't really field a mech army except for IA:7 (Sorry Khorne players!), and the new troops we got aren't half as broken as some basic troops in other OFFICIAL CODICES.

I think those players who use the OFFICIAL CODEX and field 18 tanks or 9 fliers are even cheesier then someone using rules that are not really powerful, per say, but fit a great theme.


You have it backwards :P some FW players referred to some who would rather not use FW rules as WAAC players.

unless ive missed a few posts.

---
and i dont agree with Ixquic about somone who has a FW army should be forced to auto adapt to what regulars are using.

But he should also realise hes the new guy.

Not everything is going to change instantly for him.

Yes the new player should get games with his army, but if they dont allow FW in tourneys there he hast to accept that fact.

Spider-pope
24-11-2009, 20:24
If the person has any social abilities the correct way would be to use rules that the community is familiar with (proxy Forgeworld stuff using a regular codex) until he makes some friends and then ask some of them if they would like the new experience of going against some cool stuff they are unfamiliar with.
Pulling a "fine I won't let you use YOUR stuff if I can't do this!!" is going to be met with him getting a crappy reputation more than anything else.

So Johnny Newcomer should go along with whatever you want, and not dare ask to be treated with the same respect in return?

boogle
24-11-2009, 20:26
You have it backwards :P some FW players referred to some who would rather not use FW rules as WAAC players.

unless ive missed a few posts.

Read my post, is said some (but not all)

spider-pope - spot on.

DuskRaider
24-11-2009, 20:26
You have it backwards :P some FW players referred to some who would rather not use FW rules as WAAC players.

unless ive missed a few posts.

Actually, you have. A few folks have called FW players WAAC, which is ludicrous. If I want to be WAAC, I'll play my Death Guard army and walk all over you. If I want to have a fun game and probably not win, I'll use my FW list. The stigma of using FW lists is unfounded and felt by those often too thick headed to look into it.

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 20:28
So Johnny Newcomer should go along with whatever you want, and not dare ask to be treated with the same respect in return?

If Johny Newcomer comes into a totally new environment and expects everyone to adapt to his style then he's a self centered ass. If I went into a store where Forgeworld or homebrew was the norm and bitched about it then I would expect everyone to think I was a whiny jerk.

I don't see what about "make friends with people then ask them to play against something they are not used to" is so outrageous.

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 20:31
If you walked into a store where nobody had seen Dark Eldar before would you require them to play something else for a time before asking politely to play DE?

I'm not seeing the difference here.



Actually, you have. A few folks have called FW players WAAC, which is ludicrous. If I want to be WAAC, I'll play my Death Guard army and walk all over you. If I want to have a fun game and probably not win, I'll use my FW list. The stigma of using FW lists is unfounded and felt by those often too thick headed to look into it.Indeed. The FW lists in general are rather crappy (lol 80pts for IG infantry with no heavy weapons in Infantry Squads) and most of the units are mediocre. People assume that FW automatically equals Baneblades, Titans and Thunderhawks most of the time, when I may just want an autocannon to replace the multilaser on my chimera.

Delicious Ron
24-11-2009, 20:33
As a fan of the Vraks lists I side with the Pro-Forgeworld people. The lists aren't that different from regular IG list anyway.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 20:33
Actually, you have. A few folks have called FW players WAAC, which is ludicrous. If I want to be WAAC, I'll play my Death Guard army and walk all over you. If I want to have a fun game and probably not win, I'll use my FW list. The stigma of using FW lists is unfounded and felt by those often too thick headed to look into it.

Gah my bad. i missed those :(

Not sure how playing against or not playing against FW has anything to do with WAAC cost ?

boogle
24-11-2009, 20:36
If you walked into a store where nobody had seen Dark Eldar before would you require them to play something else for a time before asking politely to play DE?

I'm not seeing the difference here.


Indeed. The FW lists in general are rather crappy (lol 80pts for IG infantry with no heavy weapons in Infantry Squads) and most of the units are mediocre. People assume that FW automatically equals Baneblades, Titans and Thunderhawks most of the time, when I may just want an autocannon to replace the multilaser on my chimera.

No-one will answer you on this one, because they don't seem to see the difference.

Ixquic - FW was classified as the norm at my old GW store, just as it is at my new one, which is at opposite ends of the country.

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 20:36
Is the attitude of that store "we consider Dark Eldar to be not standard and don't really feel like playing against it?" No one said he can't ask if people don't want to play his Forgeworld list but if people don't want to since the culture of that store frowns on it does he really have any other options?

I really like how "making friends" is being likened to some kind of trial by fire before the person can have fun doing what they really want.

Trogdor
24-11-2009, 20:36
If Johny Newcomer comes into a totally new environment and expects everyone to adapt to his style then he's a self centered ass. If I went into a store where Forgeworld or homebrew was the norm and bitched about it then I would expect everyone to think I was a whiny jerk.

I don't see what about "make friends with people then ask them to play against something they are not used to" is so outrageous.

Whilst I can't see anything wrong with that statement at all, I think it is rather sad that there seems to be such a stigma attached to people taking the less obvious route with their hobby. Shouldn't all communities welcome a wide variety of players - and therefore cater for Johnny Newcomer with his Forgeworld army - without special conditions being attached?

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 20:37
No-one will answer you on this one, because they don't seem to see the difference.

I like how I answered before your snarky reply.


Whilst I can't see anything wrong with that statement at all, I think it is rather sad that there seems to be such a stigma attached to people taking the less obvious route with their hobby. Shouldn't all communities welcome a wide variety of players - and therefore cater for Johnny Newcomer with his Forgeworld army without special conditions being attached?

Why should the community cater to him when he's effectively a stranger? What's stopping him from making friends with people, then asking them to broaden their horizons if they originally were hesitant? Like I said, what if Jonny Newbcomer is a GW purist and only wants to play with official 5th edition codexes and stumbles into a game store where people love taking Forgeworld lists? Should those players stop using their lists against him to make him happy or is it only the other way around?

If people are so uptight that they won't even play against a friend's irregular list once in a while to make him happy then they aren't good friends and he should open up his social contacts. However strangers aren't beholden to go up against anything.

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 20:41
I really like how "making friends" is being likened to some kind of trial by fire before the person can have fun doing what they really want.Because that's exactly what you've made it out to be. You've made it out to be that people must vet you out on something they have intimate knowledge with before they'll even deign to look at anything not within their immediate experience.


Again, just not seeing why people draw the line at FW stuff but won't even bat an eye at an army they've never seen just because it's in a $25 book as opposed to a $70 book, even if neither are readily available in the store or even have stocked models.

boogle
24-11-2009, 20:43
I like how I answered before your snarky reply.

Check the posting times and you'll see that I was postng my post at the same time as you, so any 'snarky' reply was made whilst no-one had 'actually' replied to Vaktathi

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 20:43
No-one will answer you on this one, because they don't seem to see the difference.

Ixquic - FW was classified as the norm at my old GW store, just as it is at my new one, which is at opposite ends of the country.


What i dislike the most about FW is what Vak was saying.

I wanted auto cannons on my chimeras so i took FW chimeras with my Codex IG army ?

To me.. that is not using a FW army.. But mixing books for an advantage at times (depending on costs of course)

I havent looked at a FW book in a year or so now, and i remember a few threads people saying.

*Take the rhino's from FW so they arent dedicated transports anymore like your codex says for that advantage then take this to *

Things like that in the past have turned me away from FW alot..

Spider-pope
24-11-2009, 20:46
Is the attitude of that store "we consider Dark Eldar to be not standard and don't really feel like playing against it?" No one said he can't ask if people don't want to play his Forgeworld list but if people don't want to since the culture of that store frowns on it does he really have any other options?

Oh, so a persons choice of armies has to be vetted by the "Stores culture" before they can play then? Funny, here was me thinking that it was the individuals choice what they played and spent their money on.



I really like how "making friends" is being likened to some kind of trial by fire before the person can have fun doing what they really want.

To be honest any player being told that they cannot play the Official army that they chose with the rules GW printed for them,simply because you dont like them, is unlikely to want to stick around to make friends. Cant say i'd blame them either.

boogle
24-11-2009, 20:52
What i dislike the most about FW is what Vak was saying.

I wanted auto cannons on my chimeras so i took FW chimeras with my Codex IG army ?

To me.. that is not using a FW army.. But mixing books for an advantage at times (depending on costs of course)

I havent looked at a FW book in a year or so now, and i remember a few threads people saying.

*Take the rhino's from FW so they arent dedicated transports anymore like your codex says for that advantage then take this to *

Things like that in the past have turned me away from FW alot..

Ever thought that Vaktathi's choice of turret for his Chimera might be an aesthetic choice, rather than a gaming choice?

Also the transport thing is now a moot point, seeing as transports can pick up any unit now after deployment, and also it's made very clear what units can have what vehicle bought for them

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 20:53
What i dislike the most about FW is what Vak was saying.

I wanted auto cannons on my chimeras so i took FW chimeras with my Codex IG army ?

To me.. that is not using a FW army.. But mixing books for an advantage at times (depending on costs of course) It exists in the fluff, it's not a huge material gameplay advantage, the ML being better at killing anything T1-6 and T9, while the AC is better at T8 killing and equal at T7, the ML also being better at AV10 killing, equal at AV11, only really different at AV12, while the AC has a longer range and can threaten AV12-13 stuff better, but costs 5pts more. And looks way cooler.

Not seeing what's so extreme or abusive about that. Or taking TL lascannons on Leman Russ instead of a battlecannon, double TL autocannons, or a vanquisher cannon.

Most of this stuff is pretty tame and offers no real huge competitive edge, just a couple extra options.

had I wanted to bring a Hydra in March it would have been 200pts and I'd have needed opponents permission. Now it's got a nifty ignores cover saves for moving fast rule, is only 75pts, can be taken in groups of 1-3 instead of just 1, and I don't need opponents permission.


not seeing the huge issue with FW stuff here.



*Take the rhino's from FW so they arent dedicated transports anymore like your codex says for that advantage then take this to *

Things like that in the past have turned me away from FW alot..That's people looking for easter eggs, not using actual FW rules.

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 20:55
You're free to spend and buy whatever you please. But don't feel entitled (which you obviously sound like you do) to have people play against your army. If people don't want to play against it they don't have to so "making friends" is your best bet. If you take your ball and leave as soon as you find out people aren't familiar with your list no one will notice or care.


Because that's exactly what you've made it out to be. You've made it out to be that people must vet you out on something they have intimate knowledge with before they'll even deign to look at anything not within their immediate experience.


That's so far off it's not even funny. When you come into a new hobby store you should try to make some friends, one easy way is to play games with them. If they don't want to play against your Forgeworld army then your only option is to use the rules they are familiar with. Once you have people on first name basis, you can proceed to ask them if they are willing to do something different. If you consider playing your Forgeworld army the true benefit making friends with people that's pretty sad.

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 20:59
agreed there shouldnt be a sense of entitlement to a game just because you have forgeworld models but there also shouldnt be an elitist attitude where you are automatically shunned without anybody lookin at the rules when they are offered

what i dont get is the percieved brokenness of forgeworld models, if i ask "hey do you mind if i use my servants of decay list? heres my list and the rule book so you can see what it does" im (and it seems others are as well) knocked back as if they had just said "im taking a warhound titan, go buy the book if you want to see what it does"

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 21:00
You're free to spend and buy whatever you please. But don't feel entitled (which you obviously sound like you do) to have people play against your army. If people don't want to play against it they don't have to so "making friends" is your best bet. If you take your ball and leave as soon as you find out people aren't familiar with your list no one will notice or care.

And this only applies to FW stuff? Not to nob biker deathstar lists, lash prince lists, or an army they've never seen much less played against? I agree that one shouldn't be forced to play what they don't want to play, but I don't think that FW should be singled out the way it is any more than anything else. People see FW and they instantly hop into "zOMG PERMISSION ONLY" mode, and then they'll turn around and play against that 9 oblit 2 lash prince list when they decide they don't like your Leman Russ Annihilator.

Col_Festus
24-11-2009, 21:00
@ the OP
I know the care that goes into a beautiful army and not being able to play it sucks. I have an easy solution tho. If you are refused a game why dont you just use Codex:IG? Sounds like everything you have is in there except for the mortars. (Which you just use as regular mortars). I had this problem myself with a DKoK army. My solution was to find a sutable "Count as" for everything in the army in the IG codex and went with it. For example, I love the imagry of thudd guns so I just took one put it on a heavy weapon base, and then took two more heavy weapon bases and modeled the crew on it. Then I simply used it as a mortar HQ team. Just some food for thought!

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 21:02
what i dont get is the percieved brokenness of forgeworld models, if i ask "hey do you mind if i use my servants of decay list? heres my list and the rule book so you can see what it does"

That is perfectly acceptible and the best thing to do.


but, what if the person reads the rules and decided no ?


Most people here want them shunned for it.

Trogdor
24-11-2009, 21:03
I like how I answered before your snarky reply.



Why should the community cater to him when he's effectively a stranger? What's stopping him from making friends with people, then asking them to broaden their horizons if they originally were hesitant? Like I said, what if Jonny Newbcomer is a GW purist and only wants to play with official 5th edition codexes and stumbles into a game store where people love taking Forgeworld lists? Should those players stop using their lists against him to make him happy or is it only the other way around?

I think you are misreading me somewhat here. I am not suggesting that either approach is right or wrong, nor that people should forget the basics of social interaction when joining new gaming groups - courtesy and a friendly attitude are both great assets after all.

I am bemoaning what seems to be a genuine divide in the 40k community and rather ham-fistedly suggesting that a more open attitude to all styles of gamer would help to overcome it. Why can't the GW 'purist' and the Forgeworld 'radical' co-exist within the same gaming environment? What genuine issues are there to prevent this that can't be solved with a little honesty and a good dollop of fair mindedness?

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 21:07
In many areas people that power game are discouraged. I don't think most people shun Forgeworld stuff as some sort of overpowered unbalanced cheating list. However the simple fact is there are areas that don't consider it "official" GW and that attitude is reinforced by little to no mention of it on the official GW site, Grand Tournaments or in most GW stores.

If you disagree with that opinion that is fine. However what I'm saying is that if you are trying to introduce your stuff into a totally Forgeworld virgin environment where the attitude is "it's that crazy apoc stuff with the fliers right?" you're best bet is to make friends and get them interested instead of coming in with "this is an official army just as legal as yours, deal with it now play me."

No one is going to care if you leave, especially if you are new so if the goal is to use your army and people aren't familiar with it, not acting like you are entitled is a good start. I don't see how this is so unfair, like you are somehow being forced to do something terrible by using standard codex until people know who you are.


I think you are misreading me somewhat here. I am not suggesting that either approach is right or wrong, nor that people should forget the basics of social interaction when joining new gaming groups - courtesy and a friendly attitude are both great assets after all.

I am bemoaning what seems to be a genuine divide in the 40k community and rather ham-fistedly suggesting that a more open attitude to all styles of gamer would help to overcome it. Why can't the GW 'purist' and the Forgeworld 'radical' co-exist within the same gaming environment? What genuine issues are there to prevent this that can't be solved with a little honesty and a good dollop of fair mindedness?

What I'm saying is that they CAN. However if some place has never used Forgeworld and only heard about it from people that made the pilgrimage to Gamesday and glanced through the book that situation is more likely to occur with the Forgeworld person becoming part of the community rather than expecting them to immediately accept what he's bringing. In a perfect world I could bring my Sisters of Battle BolS extraction force list and no one would care but in reality I would have become part of the community before I could change it.

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 21:09
@spyder: I wouldnt, i might not be happy that im being knocked back but at least you looked at it then thought no rather than "no its broken, no i dont even need to read the rules to tell you its broken im not playing it" so i wouldnt throw a strop or anything like that

my problem isnt with people who read it then decide they dont want to play, its with people who are so misinformed that they automatically assume forgeworld=broken and should be avoided

absolute worst case scenario i may have to write 2 lists, one servants of decay and one guard codex for anybody who doesnt like it, i can only hope they still dont scream no at it because its still forgeworld models even when using GW rules (ive met this once or twice in the past)

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 21:12
I don't see how this is so unfair, like you are somehow being forced to do something terrible by using standard codex until people know who you are.Because it's probably not the same army you spent a ton of money and time buying, building and painting? If the people won't even give it a chance, then that also speaks to the quality of people in the gaming group as well, not just the individual wanting to bring the FW stuff.

Also, I just realized that the majority of the non-apoc FW stuff is up for free download from the FW site in the IA1 and IA2 PDF updates, which covers the majority of IA stuff. So it should be easy for anyone to look over these units at their leisure, same with the BA codex, without dropping a wad of cash on the book.

boogle
24-11-2009, 21:15
That is perfectly acceptible and the best thing to do.


but, what if the person reads the rules and decided no ?


Most people here want them shunned for it.

Then can the same not then be said of reading any Codex and deciding no? both IA and Codexes are legal formats for producing army lists.

This all comes down to whether you want to have fun or not and agreeing before the game what would be fun for BOTH players, if the non FW player decides that not playing FW is no fun for him, then both players shouldn't play each other because the FW owning player cannot then play with the army they want to, and should not be forced to use something they didn't want to use (that being the standard Codex list).

I will be using my Elysians from the publication of IA8 onward, i'm getting rid of all of my Cadians/Catachans/Tanks as they do nothing for me anymore, and furthermore as the rules for Valks/Vendettas will be in the new book, i'll be getting rid of my IG codex as i'll no longer need it and the space, both in models and books can be taken up with other stuff I will use. That being the case, would anyone be trying to force me to re-buy something I don't want/need (the IG codex), just because i'll be allowed to have Valks/Vendettas as transports instead of FA Choices, and Sentinels that Deep Strike instead of Outflank, not because it's game breaking, but because it's really, really cool?

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 21:17
Why do I (Frank Townie) care what Joe Newcomer has spent money on since he's an absolute stranger? If I give his army a chance, I'm a cool person but I don't see anything negative about not wanting to bother with it, especially if I'm used to (and enjoy) standard codexes.



absolute worst case scenario i may have to write 2 lists, one servants of decay and one guard codex for anybody who doesnt like it, i can only hope they still dont scream no at it because its still forgeworld models even when using GW rules (ive met this once or twice in the past)

I will agree that those people are lame. It sounds like you need to find some better people to play with in general...

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 21:17
@spyder: I wouldnt, i might not be overy happy that im being knocked back but at least you looked at it then thought no rather than "no its broken, no i dont even need to read the rules to tell you its broken im not playing it"

my problem isnt with people who read it then decide they dont want to play, its with people who are so misinformed that they automatically assume forgeworld=broken and should be avoided

absolute worst case scenario i may have to write 2 lists, one servants of decay and one guard codex for anybody who doesnt like it, i can only hope they still dont scream no at it because its still forgeworld models even when using GW rules (ive met this once or twice in the past)


The misinformed people would be annoying i agree there with that.

If you run into that alot, all i can think of is play them in a normal game, or two even.. Then another day ask em to just give it a try vs the FW rules set.

I know id be more inclined to play a game against FW rules even if they used units i thought was OP if ive played the person a a time or two before.

(not saying that FW units are OP because i know ever book has a unit that is OP)

Rikka Rakka
24-11-2009, 21:18
Because no FW articles are sold in GW stores and are thus very hard to come by?


That is pure BS. I've lived in Brighton, Sheffield, Doncaster and Newcastle. All the local GW stores have stocked IA books. I bought my FW masterclass book and Vraks part 1 from GW stores over the counter.

boogle
24-11-2009, 21:20
That is pure BS. I've lived in Brighton, Sheffield, Doncaster and Newcastle. All the local GW stores have stocked IA books. I bought my FW masterclass book and Vraks part 1 from GW stores over the counter.

Are Newcastle still cool about using FW stuff, Eastbourne certainly are

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 21:21
I think FW books are much more likely to be found at GW stores in England than in the US.

Spider-pope
24-11-2009, 21:22
You're free to spend and buy whatever you please. But don't feel entitled (which you obviously sound like you do) to have people play against your army. If people don't want to play against it they don't have to so "making friends" is your best bet. If you take your ball and leave as soon as you find out people aren't familiar with your list no one will notice or care.


Bub, for the record i dont own a single Forgeworld product. But why shouldnt they feel entitled to use the army they chose and bought? They have as much right to play what they want as anyone else who has bought an official GW product.




That's so far off it's not even funny. When you come into a new hobby store you should try to make some friends, one easy way is to play games with them. If they don't want to play against your Forgeworld army then your only option is to use the rules they are familiar with. Once you have people on first name basis, you can proceed to ask them if they are willing to do something different. If you consider playing your Forgeworld army the true benefit making friends with people that's pretty sad.

Funny, the way i see it, it should be the other way around. I wouldnt dream of suggesting someone i didnt know play something different simply because i dont like it. Maybe later, once i knew the person i would request they didnt take such-and-such unit. And if you consider whether a person plays a Forgeworld army or not the deciding factor in whether they can join your group and be your friend or not, thats pretty sad.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 21:24
Then can the same not then be said of reading any Codex and deciding no? both IA and Codexes are legal formats for producing army lists.

This all comes down to whether you want to have fun or not and agreeing before the game what would be fun for BOTH players, if the non FW player decides that not playing FW is no fun for him, then both players shouldn't play each other because the FW owning player cannot then play with the army they want to, and should not be forced to use something they didn't want to use (that being the standard Codex list).

I will be using my Elysians from the publication of IA8 onward, i'm getting rid of all of my Cadians/Catachans/Tanks as they do nothing for me anymore, and furthermore as the rules for Valks/Vendettas will be in the new book, i'll be getting rid of my IG codex as i'll no longer need it and the space, both in models and books can be taken up with other stuff I will use. That being the case, would anyone be trying to force me to re-buy something I don't want/need (the IG codex), just because i'll be allowed to have Valks/Vendettas as transports instead of FA Choices, and Sentinels that Deep Strike instead of Outflank, not because it's game breaking, but because it's really, really cool?


Its still different to me because ive never read all those rules, they arent used here often, you cant even get the books here without going online.

Would i tell you no ? It depends.

Did you offer to let me read the rules and polite about it ?

If yes, i wouldnt say no.

Is my goal play testing a lists for a tourney or testing a lists if i want to buy units to add to my army ?

Id want to play a more tourney standard game then, which around here is non FW..

Would i be an ass about it ? No, i would most likely say: I would rather play a game against a Tourney standard army due to im wanting to test a few things etc, we could play another day thou.

Would you accept that ? or would you be agrivated ? Would you think i was an ass for it ?

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 21:26
Why do I (Frank Townie) care what Joe Newcomer has spent money on since he's an absolute stranger? If I give his army a chance, I'm a cool person but I don't see anything negative about not wanting to bother with it, especially if I'm used to (and enjoy) standard codexes. Because you might meet a cool new player, play against something new and exciting, get to see models you might normally never see, etc?

Whats the difference between that and playing against a codex you've never played against before?


you cant even get the books here without going online. same with Dark Eldar and Blood Angels though, and you can get most of the rules for IG stuff and all the INQ/SM stuff for free in the IA1/2 update PDF's

boogle
24-11-2009, 21:29
I've always offered my opponents to read my books, most people didn't bother and just had a blast playing.

Ah, well we wouldn't play each other as we're wanting different things, i dislike tourneys so have no part in gaming against those that are tourney minded, but for thematic games/campaigns/narrative games/pick-up fun games we'd play

darker4308
24-11-2009, 21:31
I think the crux of this discussion is this. Have any of you ever been to a foreign land and then ended up eating at MacDonalds? I have.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 21:33
I've always offered my opponents to read my books, most people didn't bother and just had a blast playing.

Ah, well we wouldn't play each other as we're wanting different things, i dislike tourneys so have no part in gaming against those that are tourney minded, but for thematic games/campaigns/narrative games/pick-up fun games we'd play

That came off as rather rude.

Just because i play in tourneys doesnt auto make me a tourney minded player.

I play tourneys for fun.. to play people i wouldnt normally play, usually in a different town that i live in.

Once a month.. $5.. play 3 different people you normally wouldnt play or meet ?

Doesnt mean its not for fun, and at the same time i would still like to take a competetive list.

I do no go to GT's etc tourneys like that.

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 21:35
Funny, the way i see it, it should be the other way around. I wouldnt dream of suggesting someone i didnt know play something different simply because i dont like it. Maybe later, once i knew the person i would request they didnt take such-and-such unit. And if you consider whether a person plays a Forgeworld army or not the deciding factor in whether they can join your group and be your friend or not, thats pretty sad.

No one is forcing poor Joe Newcomer to play a non-Forgeworld list. However (I'm not sure why you can't get this) you can't force people that don't want to play against it to do so. If he can't get games than his options are to either play like everyone else and become familiar with the community or leave. Once people know him he can go from there and start asking his friends to open their minds a little in terms of what they will play. If he can find another group that is more accepting of stuff like that good for him, but the original situation was presented that this is likely his only option.

I have no idea where you are getting "whether a person plays a Forgeworld army or not the deciding factor in whether they can join your group and be your friend or not" unless your reading comprehension is really bad. If a guy sits in a corner and will only play people who let him use his army that everyone in that community considers akin to some variant internet list then goes home angry or pulls the "when you can't use THAT" line he's not going to make many friends which has nothing to do with where he bought his models.

As an aside I own an entire Forgeworld Renegade Guard army but understand that if I'm playing some guy I've never met, forcing him to learn my army's unorthodox ruleset isn't going to work when we have two hours to spend.

boogle
24-11-2009, 21:37
But if you're wanting to refine a tourney list and i'm wanting to play a pick up game, then we're looking for different things, so it wouldn't be fun for you to play against something that you won't be facing in a tourney and it won't be fun for me as you don't want to face a FW army, s we'd look in different directions on that occasion.

massey
24-11-2009, 21:38
Maybe I'm biased. Maybe I come from a different background than some of you.

I live in the middle of the US, pretty much dead center. It's very flat here, and there are no GW stores within, well, I don't know how close one is, because I've never been to one. I understand there's one in Atlanta. That's a long way from here. It's like a 14 hour drive. I don't plan on driving 14 hours to get a FW book, and I don't plan on spending 90 bucks for one, either.

Now, it just so happens that I've read several of the FW books, and though there's some pretty scary stuff in there, I wouldn't really have a problem playing against any of it. However, not everybody is me. We've got a lot of new people in our local store (a local store which does not carry any FW stuff, but does have a new copy of the Dark Eldar codex sitting right there on the shelf). I wouldn't expect any of the new people to play against a FW army unless they were taking part in one of our mega-battles (in which case, if you're playing in that game, you're going to be seeing a lot of stuff you might not ordinarily want to play). But I don't keep up on all the FW stuff. I don't play it regularly and I don't expect to see it normally. I would expect anyone attempting to use it to at least give me fair warning. We have one old-timer who plays using a lot of FW stuff. Normally he's a great player to go against. The only real complaint I have against him is that he just assumes everyone is cool with him using his FW stuff in regular games. This can create confusion, especially when you're not that up on Imperial Guard anyway. "These guys can do what now? Where is that?" "Oh, it's in IA2." "Oh. So you're using FW stuff? Wish I'd known that." Again, he's normally great, but sometimes you wish you'd had a chance to agree to it beforehand.

As far as me refusing to play? I refuse to play a lot of people. I refuse to play at least once a week. See, I don't play much. My normal trip to the game store involves me dropping by on a Friday evening, saying "hi" to everyone, taking a look at the new releases, and then turning down a game invitation and going out for drinks with people from work. I haven't played an actual game in a couple of months. It has nothing to do with people's armies, just a general lack of desire to play lately. I don't think I'm being rude by saying "nah, not gonna play tonight, just dropping by". If I'm in the mood to play, I'll play. If I'm not, I won't. Sometimes I like the idea of playing some weird variant list with lots of neat resin models. Sometimes I prefer to simply play a standard list. Sometimes I'll refuse to play a totally legal army, like Dark Eldar or Orks, because I just don't want to play them that day.

It's like watching a movie. "You wanna watch Indiana Jones?" "Nah, not today." "Why not, you hate Indy?" "Nah, just don't want to watch it today." The game is supposed to be fun. If I don't want to play, then it's not fun.

What are you supposed to do with your massively expensive FW army? Find someone else to play. If you can't find anyone who wants to play, there may be a different problem.

boogle
24-11-2009, 21:39
No one is forcing poor Joe Newcomer to play a non-Forgeworld list. However (I'm not sure why you can't get this) you can't force people that don't want to play against it to do so. If he can't get games than his options are to either play like everyone else and become familiar with the community or leave. If he can find another group that is more accepting of stuff like that good for him, but the original situation was presented that this is likely his only option.

As an aside I own an entire Forgeworld Renegade Guard army but understand that if I'm playing some guy I've never met, forcing him to learn my army's unorthodox ruleset isn't going to work when we have two hours to spend.

But forcing him to play with a ruleset that he either doesn't have, or has chosen not to use is fine?

Spyder - But if you're wanting to refine a tourney list and i'm wanting to play a pick up game, then we're looking for different things, so it wouldn't be fun for you to play against something that you won't be facing in a tourney and it won't be fun for me as you don't want to face a FW army, so we'd look in different directions on that occasion.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 21:39
Just another reason why FW rules is a turnoff to some in the states.

IA volumes 5-7 = 130GBP = $214

Without the 15-20% discount we get..

6 squads of tactical marines for the cost of those 3 books.

Pretty much building half a new army for the book costs alone :P

yabbadabba
24-11-2009, 21:40
@ Mannimarco - sorry if this has been mentioned already. The Forgeworld products and rules are not designed in the GW studio. When FW was set up, even though it was under the GW umbrella, it was as an independent company making high detailed, high quality resin models. The only reason they produced anything that could be used in a game (and currently the reason why FW focusesses on 40K) is because the Director is a treadhead modeller. They originally never had "authority" to produce playing pieces and I understand this was a cause of some friction in the first few months of FW existance.

Obviously each place is entitled to enforce its own rules for playing games. For a long time GW stores would have nothing to do with FW other than give out free catalogues occassionally. Again the only reason the IA books made it into the stores was as an experiment. Although they sell, apparently they are not that successful compared to codices and army books. GW stores didnt sell the models (apart from a very small experiment, not sure now as it has been a few years) and nor did UK Trade. Therefore the only place to buy FW models was through FW and GW did operate a policy of not playing with stuff they couldn't sell.

The big thing though, returns to my original point. FW rules are not official GW rules. Therefore anything that needs FW rules, as opposed to officially released GW Studio rules are not official and nobody is obliged to play against them. I doubt you would find many who would be unhappy to give it a go, especially if you give them a chance to read the specialist rules, but you might find it hard to do that in some, if not many, GW stores.

Good Luck and have fun mate.

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 21:41
But if you're wanting to refine a tourney list and i'm wanting to play a pick up game, then we're looking for different things, so it wouldn't be fun for you to play against something that you won't be facing in a tourney and it won't be fun for me as you don't want to face a FW army, s we'd look in different directions on that occasion.

And at the same time, you are assuming i do not play games for fun, with lists for fun.

I dont own 5000pts of painted Guard just to go to Tourneys.

I have around 180 painted Infantry for a platoon gunline list that is fun.. but terrible at tourneys here.

boogle
24-11-2009, 21:48
And at the same time, you are assuming i do not play games for fun, with lists for fun.

I dont own 5000pts of painted Guard just to go to Tourneys.

I have around 180 painted Infantry for a platoon gunline list that is fun.. but terrible at tourneys here.

Read what i wrote, based on what you originally said, you said you'd rather play a tourney standard army, which my army isn't, which gives me 3 choices,
1) make a new list based on the IG codex (which in the example i can't do as i have my IA book and no IG codex)
2) shrug and say 'sorry mate, we'd best find other opponents'
3) Dig my heels in and make you play my list

option 1 precludes me from having fun as i'm unable to play with the army i've brought and can't change the list
option 2 allows us both to find opponents that will allow us to have the fun we've intended to have ON THIS OCCASION (you to refine your tourney list and me to have a pick up game)
option 3 precludes you from having any fun as i'm being an ****

option 2 is my choice everytime in this scenario as that's the best compromise

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 21:56
Honestly..

This entire thread comes down to..

Where do you play ?

What is the normal there ?

As i posted.. no one around here is going to buy 2-3 Imperial armor books over buying half of a new army :P

Occulto
24-11-2009, 22:10
Walk into GW, pick up FW book, pay for it.

Tricky...

Australian stores do not stock Forgeworld.

You were saying?

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 23:53
Australian stores do not stock Forgeworld.

You were saying?

Download IA 1 and 2 update PDF's containing 70% of FW rules from FW website?

ehlijen
24-11-2009, 23:55
Australian stores do not stock Forgeworld.

You were saying?

That'd explain why I've never seen any in stores (apart from staff members showing off their personal copy to the regulars).

I was wondering why that was the case...

Vaktathi:
70% is not 100% and could be missing vital details. And I prefer to use my nice and bound codex to a collection of printed out pdf pages.

Vaktathi
25-11-2009, 00:07
Vaktathi:
70% is not 100% and could be missing vital details. And I prefer to use my nice and bound codex to a collection of printed out pdf pages.They have all the rules for every INQ and SM unit, and all the rules for most of the IG stuff. the stuff they have is complete rules for the unit included, just no fluff or pics.

So basically for the vast majority of FW stuff, they have free rules available.

The remaining stuff requires buying a book (or otherwise) but the vast majority of it is free and widely available, no harder to find than rules for Blood Angels, and certainly more available and accessible than Dark Eldar.

Lewis
25-11-2009, 00:09
I see no inherent difference between a list with FW models/rules and a well constructed fandex. I'll play your FW list if you'll play my fandex list.

Sure, when you've hard bound your fandex and convinced someone its worth 30 quid.

Occulto
25-11-2009, 00:12
Download IA 1 and 2 update PDF's containing 70% of FW rules from FW website?

That doesn't change the fact that not all GW stores stock FW books and so it's not just a simple matter of "walking in, slapping down cash and walking out."

Hell, I can't even flick through one of the FW books to see if it's worth getting. I've got to punch in my credit card details and hope I'm not buying a lemon.

Also, I didn't see any army lists in there besides the armored battlegroup. So the PDFs are about as helpful as a fart in a space-suit, if I want to see what units Nurgle Renegades can/cannot take and any associated rules. :eyebrows:

madprophet
25-11-2009, 00:18
Thing about FW stuff is worst-case you can use the ever-popular 'counts as'.

I have no problem with FW stuff (I don't own any, m'self) so long as you give me 10 minutes to read the rules you plan on using before the game.

Vaktathi
25-11-2009, 00:37
That doesn't change the fact that not all GW stores stock FW books and so it's not just a simple matter of "walking in, slapping down cash and walking out." true, but you can't do that with Dark Eldar or Blood Angels either.



Also, I didn't see any army lists in there besides the armored battlegroup. So the PDFs are about as helpful as a fart in a space-suit, if I want to see what units Nurgle Renegades can/cannot take and any associated rules. :eyebrows:
yes, but the vast majority of FW models the rules are included in there, just not all the variant lists which are in later IA books.

Dangersaurus
25-11-2009, 00:41
Just another reason why FW rules is a turnoff to some in the states.

IA volumes 5-7 = 130GBP = $214

Without the 15-20% discount we get..

6 squads of tactical marines for the cost of those 3 books.

Pretty much building half a new army for the book costs alone :P

I can see why that may turn some off from buying, but from playing against it? What is that, just resentment? "I can't afford it, so you can't use it" is the message you're sending, which I'm sure is not the intent.

To the OP: Someone who refuses to play your painted fluff-list army while at the same time bringing a gamey list that is barely painted? You're not missing out on anything there.

Vaktathi
25-11-2009, 00:43
I can see why that may turn some off from buying, but from playing against it? What is that, just resentment? "I can't afford it, so you can't use it" is the message you're sending, which I'm sure is not the intent. Indeed, the same could be applied to any army practically. "Orks/IG/Nids are too expensive to collect compared with Space Marines, so because I can't make the investment I won't play against it".

Occulto
25-11-2009, 00:56
true, but you can't do that with Dark Eldar or Blood Angels either.

I don't care.

I was responding to Binky's comment:


Walk into GW, pick up FW book, pay for it.

Tricky...

Whether DE or BA are downloads is completely irrelevant to the fact that in some parts of the world it is not a simple matter of just walking into GW, picking up a FW book and paying for it.

You cannot do it, so yeah, it does tend to be a bit "tricky." :rolleyes:


yes, but the vast majority of FW models the rules are included in there, just not all the variant lists which are in later IA books.

Fine if you want to see what some variant of the Leman Russ does.

But there's none of the non-IG/SM stuff or armylists. That means the PDFs are not substitutes for being able to physically flip through the complete FW books.

silashand
25-11-2009, 01:03
Because some people are whingy gits.

Amen to that. I don't know why, but some people in this hobby have a board up their behind about not wanting to try anything out of the ordinary. Personally I tend to avoid unimaginative and stodgy players like that.

Vaktathi
25-11-2009, 01:08
I don't care.
Chill out man, just trying to have a conversation.



I was responding to Binky's comment:



Whether DE or BA are downloads is completely irrelevant to the fact that in some parts of the world it is not a simple matter of just walking into GW, picking up a FW book and paying for it.

You cannot do it, so yeah, it does tend to be a bit "tricky." :rolleyes: How does that really create any more of an issue though for using FW stuff than using those armies? Sure, it means you can't get it in the store and have to order it from england. So do I, as I don't even have an actual Games Workshop within several hundred miles.

I see your point that it's not as easy as walking into a GW and buying the book, but I don't see why that's a basis for classifying FW stuff as being so special when the same doesn't apply to Dark Eldar or Blood Angels



Fine if you want to see what some variant of the Leman Russ does. Stuff like that is 90% of what FW has put out and what most people will be using.


But there's none of the non-IG/SM stuff or armylists. That means the PDFs are not substitutes for being able to physically flip through the complete FW books.
For those things that aren't included sure, but there has to be some reason to buy the books :P Most of the army lists are just the old IG dex lists with a couple extras, not a whole lot of variation.

Occulto
25-11-2009, 01:51
Chill out man, just trying to have a conversation.

I'm chilled. :D


How does that really create any more of an issue though for using FW stuff than using those armies? Sure, it means you can't get it in the store and have to order it from england. So do I, as I don't even have an actual Games Workshop within several hundred miles.

I just get annoyed with comments like Binky's because it implied that someone was an idiot for not doing something that could be impossible. It's about as helpful as someone who lives in Nottingham saying the "obvious" solution to something is to just pop down to Warhammer World. :rolleyes:


I see your point that it's not as easy as walking into a GW and buying the book, but I don't see why that's a basis for classifying FW stuff as being so special when the same doesn't apply to Dark Eldar or Blood Angels

DE is a relatively recent removal (and still available via in-store ordering) and while BA is also a PDF, at least it has the entire list there. Both are relatively mainstream armies - 100% official, legal or whatever you want to call it. I've got more chance of facing either of those next tournament than I do a DKoK army.

I'm personally in favour of playing FW lists, and would jump at the chance of a game against them.

Others clearly aren't - whether that's because they've had bad experiences with FW stuff in the past, don't see the point in playing something that's not tournie legal or just because they don't want to play it.

In a store, who knows why they barred it? Most likely because FW stuff = less sales for the store. If you look at the number of GW stores that bar Specialist Games, I'm not surprised if FW is treated the same way - even though the money technically ends up going to the same place.

Havock
25-11-2009, 02:13
I didn't have a lot of problems using my FW stuff back in the days when they weren't all in the dex *cough*.

One guy did object once, and because I came in at a lower amount of points I 'unfortunately' had to fill the remaining points in with a pair of bombsquads and three suicide vet squads (back in 4th ed, mind you).

The tears were delicious.

WH40KAj
25-11-2009, 03:30
I've been declined games with my Tyranid army, my dark eldar before. Didn't think 5MCs are "fair" in 1.5k and didn't like 10 Dark Lances and 8Disentgraters in 1k.
Yet the table next to me had vraks on it in one of these...
I really wouldn't worry mate, it's people won't play where they think they won't win. Nothing more. I'd happily play against forgeworld armies, even super-heavy things. Though the S.heavies i'd like to know about before. Everything else, from blight drones to chem mortars are fine. Just talk to people and try to bring them round, get them excited in it and they will be more inclined.
And just personally, if it was painted forgeworld versus unpainted codex models; i'd play your forgeworld every single time.
WH40KAj

Spider-pope
25-11-2009, 10:58
No one is forcing poor Joe Newcomer to play a non-Forgeworld list. However (I'm not sure why you can't get this) you can't force people that don't want to play against it to do so. If he can't get games than his options are to either play like everyone else and become familiar with the community or leave. Once people know him he can go from there and start asking his friends to open their minds a little in terms of what they will play. If he can find another group that is more accepting of stuff like that good for him, but the original situation was presented that this is likely his only option.

I have no idea where you are getting "whether a person plays a Forgeworld army or not the deciding factor in whether they can join your group and be your friend or not" unless your reading comprehension is really bad.


That is precisely what you are saying. The player can only get involved if he plays the game how you want to play it. If they dare to do something different from the norm, then by your logic they should be ostracized until they bow down to peer pressure and abandon the army they want to play. And if they dont give in and play by your arbitrary rules, then they get to sit in the corner or leave. I'm not argueing for forcing anyone to play anything. Im argueing against discriminating against someone purely because of the army they have chosen to collect.

Also, trying to undermine someone's arguement by questioning their intelligence, real classy :rolleyes:

massey
25-11-2009, 14:01
That is precisely what you are saying. The player can only get involved if he plays the game how you want to play it. If they dare to do something different from the norm, then by your logic they should be ostracized until they bow down to peer pressure and abandon the army they want to play. And if they dont give in and play by your arbitrary rules, then they get to sit in the corner or leave. I'm not argueing for forcing anyone to play anything. Im argueing against discriminating against someone purely because of the army they have chosen to collect.

Also, trying to undermine someone's arguement by questioning their intelligence, real classy :rolleyes:

I'll come out and say it. If someone doesn't want to play the way I play, yes, they need to find a different opponent. I have no obligation to play anyone, and they have no right to be offended if I choose not to play them. Period.

electricblooz
25-11-2009, 15:08
I'll come out and say it. If someone doesn't want to play the way I play, yes, they need to find a different opponent. I have no obligation to play anyone, and they have no right to be offended if I choose not to play them. Period.

thank you massey -

Caanos
25-11-2009, 15:16
I'll come out and say it. If someone doesn't want to play the way I play, yes, they need to find a different opponent. I have no obligation to play anyone, and they have no right to be offended if I choose not to play them. Period.

I think as long as you give a good reason, and are polite about it, that's fine. However, if you're being rude and just exclaim that "No, I won't play FW. Go find someone else." it just makes you seem like an arrogant ass.

Giganthrax
25-11-2009, 15:24
If someone showed up at my LGS with FW rules, I probably wouldn't play them unless they were one of my regular opponents.

I CBA to play against people if I don't know their rules. For all sakes and purposes, he could just keep making up the rules on the spot and I wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Not even the store managers know the FW rules around here.




That being said, I would love it if my local tournament scene started allowing FW rules (no superheavies and gargantuan creatures, ofc). It would add to the variation + I don't think it would upset the balance much.

Caanos
25-11-2009, 15:36
If someone showed up at my LGS with FW rules, I probably wouldn't play them unless they were one of my regular opponents.

I CBA to play against people if I don't know their rules. For all sakes and purposes, he could just keep making up the rules on the spot and I wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Not even the store managers know the FW rules around here.

If that person has the FW rulebooks and lets you read over them before the game starts, how is he making up rules?

Giganthrax
25-11-2009, 15:41
If that person has the FW rulebooks and lets you read over them before the game starts, how is he making up rules?
Well, if he had brought the actual rulebook, then I might give it a shot. If there was someone else with regular rules who wanted to play at the same time, I would probably play them instead.

Granted, unless tournaments here started using those rules, I still wouldn't be particularly interested in investing my money and time into FW rules and models. It would be more of a "for fun", one-off thing, and not at all different from homegrown rules in my mind.

mdauben
25-11-2009, 16:47
Well, if he had brought the actual rulebook, then I might give it a shot.
I try not to dismiss FW stuff out of hand, but I really don't think this is an unreasonable request. I expect a player to have his own codex with him when we play, so I would certainly expect that he would bring the actual write up for an army or unit that I am much less likely to be familiar with than any of the offical "codex" lists. I know the FW books are pricey, but IMO if you can afford the cost of FW miniatures, you can afford the cost of the IA books. :eyebrows:

Personally, in pick up games I feel I have the right to decline playing any player or list for whatever reasons I feel jutify for doing so. If I show up at my FLGS with a nicely thought out, fluffy, fun list I may well not care to play against someone with a min/maxed, totally optimized tourny list. If I am working on tuning a tourney list, I may not want to play with a 12 year old beginner with some thrown together list from a half understood codex he never bothered to buy. Heck, I might decline a game just becuase I do not want to play against Orks or Nids or whatever that day and that's always my right. Of course, that might mean I don't find an opponent, either, but that's my choice.

The fact is, people who chose to play unofficial, varient or FW lists are taking a chance that they may have problems finding opponents. Whether that is fair or not is irrelevent. I would never try to bring FW units, let alone whole FW army lists to the table without some assurance that they would be accepted, either through previous agreement with the player in question, or though a general acceptance in that particular gaming group. That's just the price you pay for using unofficial lists.

Giganthrax
25-11-2009, 20:26
I try not to dismiss FW stuff out of hand, but I really don't think this is an unreasonable request. I expect a player to have his own codex with him when we play, so I would certainly expect that he would bring the actual write up for an army or unit that I am much less likely to be familiar with than any of the offical "codex" lists. I know the FW books are pricey, but IMO if you can afford the cost of FW miniatures, you can afford the cost of the IA books. :eyebrows:

Personally, in pick up games I feel I have the right to decline playing any player or list for whatever reasons I feel jutify for doing so. If I show up at my FLGS with a nicely thought out, fluffy, fun list I may well not care to play against someone with a min/maxed, totally optimized tourny list. If I am working on tuning a tourney list, I may not want to play with a 12 year old beginner with some thrown together list from a half understood codex he never bothered to buy. Heck, I might decline a game just becuase I do not want to play against Orks or Nids or whatever that day and that's always my right. Of course, that might mean I don't find an opponent, either, but that's my choice.

The fact is, people who chose to play unofficial, varient or FW lists are taking a chance that they may have problems finding opponents. Whether that is fair or not is irrelevent. I would never try to bring FW units, let alone whole FW army lists to the table without some assurance that they would be accepted, either through previous agreement with the player in question, or though a general acceptance in that particular gaming group. That's just the price you pay for using unofficial lists.
My thoughts exactly.

I like some of the FW stuff, but as far as my gaming group is concerned, they are unofficial rules and therefore have the same worth as homegrown rules.

If someone comes to a GS with a list that relies on such rules, he needs to be prepared for people not to want to play him. Many of us here only get one day a week to play, and we don't want to spend our time learning new rules that we are never going to use in tournaments.

And besides, what's wrong with the regular codex rules? Are those zerker ogryns and command rhinos really THAT important so that someone HAS to have them in their lists and anyone who doesn't wanna play them is automatically small-minded? Are the standard codexes that boring, that they need help from FW to make fun lists?

verirh
25-11-2009, 21:32
Where do I begin?

I have a large number of FW models. You can't play IG without them now, unless you want to start doing a lot of scratch built models, which is not something I have enough time for. As a result, I have 2 Vanquishers, 1 Conqueror, 1 Executioner, 1 Exterminator, 1 Griffon, 1 Hydra Flak Tank, plus side skirts (extra armor) on a Chimera, just for starters. Admittedly, the Demolisher kit now allows you to make the Executioner, but what about the Vanquisher? In my Sisters army, I have 2 FW Exorcists, plus 2 Repressors. The Exorcists are merely a different Exorcist model, however, the Repressors are a cross between a Rhino and a Chimera (fire points plus a hull HF and storm bolter, but no turret weapon. Point wise, it costs the same as the Chimera in the old IG codex.

Frankly, if you use the Imperial Armor books, you are generally going to pay a higher point cost for that fluffy unit or tank. As long as the person wishing to use the FW rule has it available for their opponent to view, then there is no "real" reason to decline a battle against them. Having said that, it takes all kinds (of idiots) to make up a gaming group. If it is a friendly battle, there should not be any question. In a tournament, I can see the use of FW variant rules being limited, but they can't be excluded on the basis that they are not GW models. They most certainly are GW. FW is used as the testing ground for many units that eventually make it into the various codexes (codices?). Gamers who refuse to play an opponent that wishes to use the FW unit and actually has the rules available for perusal, are limiting their gaming experience and are in effect saying they are only playing to win.

I've played a many of this type of gamer. They invariably use what I call unit creep (their units manage to move 21 inches in 3 turns of movement - without running). Remember that the Super-Heavies are just that and should only be included in Apocalypse battles as they are NOT heavy support units. They fit in their own category (super-heavy) and thus cannot be used in a "regulation" 40k battle.

Going back to the original theme, I'll play your army and have a lot of fun doing it. At the end of the day, we are playing a game! Why so serious?

zeep
25-11-2009, 22:29
(edit for brevity) Where do I begin?

Gamers who refuse to play an opponent that wishes to use the FW unit and actually has the rules available for perusal, are limiting their gaming experience and are in effect saying they are only playing to win.

I've played a many of this type of gamer. They invariably use what I call unit creep (their units manage to move 21 inches in 3 turns of movement - without running). Remember that the Super-Heavies are just that and should only be included in Apocalypse battles as they are NOT heavy support units. They fit in their own category (super-heavy) and thus cannot be used in a "regulation" 40k battle.



Ironically this is the exact attitude that most of us who do not like Forgeworld see.

You hear about "fluff" and then see only how forgeworld is used to shore up the weakness in their army, while they use handwavium techniques to give themselves a win. They load up on heavy anti-tank, and then use the chimera auto-cannon to plug the whole in anti-meq / light vehicle offense that they just created.

There are overcosted / underpowered units... that seem to never actually appear in the game. Meanwhile any exploitable option (You get to call in a second set of ordance attacks?!) is min-maxed into the ground.

Being deprived of game experience posits that I have not played that experience. Quite the contrary. Arguments of jealousy over cost are laughable, most adult gamers can spend more on a friday night at the bar and not bat an eye.

No, the limiting factor as an adult gamer is time, not money. I can get maybe one game a week, and the simple fact is that in my experience, Forgeworld is synonomous with "Win at all cost". So much so that I can use it to determine that I will not enjoy the game, and would be better off not playing it.

In all honesty, given a choice between a forgeworld matchup, and a simple game of classic battletech, The bugs go up and the marauder comes out. Then I at least know I will have fun.

antin3
25-11-2009, 22:48
I would play any FW army that showed up at my LGS. I might even ask what some of the more exotic units do. I mean really, it's just a game, have fun, play it. So what if a unit is over-powered. Try to beat it with your "underpowered" army and then revel in the moral victory. If you lose so what take some lessons from it and move on. If someone spends the money and has the rules why can you not play that person other than the fact that you have a problem with the possiblility of losing a game. Is it really that big a deal?
If I played an WAAC player with a FW army and lost then the next time I would just try to come up with different tactics or units and see what happens.

Mannimarco
25-11-2009, 23:09
i have to say i dont understand this attitude of forgeworld = WAAC that many people seem to have (this is not me having a go at you zeep)

more forgeworld models are underpowered/overcosted for what they do, i grant you there are some potentially overpowered models in there but the exact same thing can be said for codex units, i give you biker nobz, nothing from forgeworld ive ever seen comes anywhere near that level of broken potential, lash spam, theres a forgeworld tank that can use lash however its ballistic skill 1, not quite the same power level as a twin prince combo

more often than not ive heard people say "nice model, shame the rules suck" (see valdor) than forgeworld = cheesy broken units used by WAAC jerks who forget its supposed to be fun for both players

ill go into a break down of my list:

command squad: random leadership and cost more than codex, lower BS, no advisors

armoured fist squads: identical to codex except random leadership and cost A LOT more

plague ogryns: expensive, random attacks, can be really really good or a point sink, no ranged attack and completely useless against any vehicle

chemical mortars: expensive, excellent MEQ killers but low toughness and as easy to kill as any guardsman

I grant you this army has the potential to kill MEQ armies fairly easily but can and would fold very quickly to enemy resistance, its a glass hammer type army, the first turn it fires it will kill somthing but its going to die as soon as the enemy strikes back, thats why over the day and the 2 games i managed to beg out of people i drew one and lost one, yeah thats what a WAAC list does, lose badly and only draw because of a last turn chimera dash onto an objective, yeah i feel like a powergamer already

whoever said they simply dont have time to learn new rules they wont face in a tourny: it takes 2 minutes to read and see "hmm thats actually pretty close to the codex anyway", this isnt about tourneys anyway, its just used in pickup games. In a tourney id go my ultra cheesy mech death guard, its fully codex and cheese value is through the roof but as its codex its fine and isnt met with the same level of hate as my (lets face it) stripped down imperial guard, by the logic of "dont have time to read these new rules, both paragraphs of them" then anybody could say to anybody "hmm orks? nope never read the codex and dont have time to learn anything about them, go play sombody else"

trust me folks, theres more WAAC players out ther using codex than using forgeworld

now if you'ee all excuse me I have 2 slaaneshi princes and a horde of plage marines and some obliterators to go paint, cant knock that back as its all codex, no more cheesy powergamer lists for me

Hadafix
25-11-2009, 23:28
So what is the difference between using a FW book and a lesser used Codex army. Where I am there are hardly any BT players and last game I pointed to the rules that would be most relevant (mainly those affecting RZ and the Slayer of Champions) and went from there.

If some one is playing FW, has the book, has a list, whats the difference?

Its not like any of the FW stuff is like using "counts as Tau" using the SW dex or something stupid.

Brother Loki
25-11-2009, 23:33
I think this comes down to a wider issue than just FW. It comes down to what you think 40k actually is, which I think in turn comes from when you started playing. From 3rd edition onwards, the game developed into a much more codified, restricted style. You had the codices, rule book and then supplemental stuff like ‘Chapter Approved’ and ForgeWorld. These latter sources had a sort of semi-official stamp, implying that they were somehow outside the norm.

I think this also coincides with the rise of tournament culture, as well as a more serious attempt to break into the American market, which is perceived as being more competitive and tournament oriented. I’m not suggesting that Americans are WAAC tournament players, or that anyone who’s not comfortable with what they deem ‘non-standard’ rules is either. I’m just speculating that these phenomena sort of came into being around the same time. I think the internet has a big part in propagating this view as well.

However 40k wasn’t always like this. 1st edition came out in 1987 and was much more of a starting point than a complete game. It contained rules for creating custom characters and vehicles, and squads would be armed with random equipment etc. There were no army lists (those came with the publication of Chapter Approved:The First Book of the Astronomicon in 1988, containing White Scars, Imperial Army, Rogue Traders, Space Pirates, Orks and Eldar Corsairs). The default assumption would be that the game would have a GM, who would design the forces involved, design the scenarios and write mission briefings for the players – it was much closer to an RPG than the way it is played now. Every month, as new models were released, new rules to use them were published in White Dwarf, so that the game grew organically, and throughout it all players were encouraged to modify things and create their own stuff.

Eventually 2nd edition came along, did away with the GM (since most people didn’t really bother with this anyway) and introduced the codex system, but there continued to be an organic growth as new stuff was added each month in White Dwarf, the Citadel Journal and elsewhere. This was around the time that GW shops started to get gaming tables as well, and moved to the current model of in-store gaming – previously 40k was something you played with your friends on the kitchen table, not something you played with strangers. There was also more of an attempt to market to younger players, and GW shops started to become ‘hobby centres’ which would be filled with kids at weekends and during school holidays.

With the advent of 3rd edition there was a conscious attempt to streamline the game, and though White Dwarf continued to publish new rules and expansion material, this stuff was labelled under the ‘Chapter Approved’ heading as experimental or ‘opponent’s permission only’. A distinction was created where none had previously existed, between ‘core’ 40k (rulebook and codices) and supplemental materials (Chapter Approved material, ForgeWorld etc). I think two things contributed to this: the rise of tournaments, and the growth in in-store gaming. In both these cases, there was a fundamental shift in the dynamic of who was playing who, from a group of friends in someone’s house, to playing games against total strangers in a public setting. By creating these restrictions it became easier for people who didn’t know each other to find common ground to play a game, which is obviously a good thing.

However, I do think that there have been significant side effects to this. Over the last decade there has been an insidious phrase creeping into gaming vocabulary. A growing proportion of gamers seem to be obsessed with the concept of ‘tournament legal’ models and rules, even players who have no intention of ever playing in a tournament. They seem suspicious or hostile of anything which isn’t permitted in a handful of large tournaments and feel it is somehow not legitimate for normal play. Obviously the phrase ‘tournament legal’ is a misnomer in itself, as individual tournaments may have wildly different restrictions, but many look to the GW Grand Tournaments to provide a de-facto standard.

This means that a large number of players will not consider playing anything outside of the tournament norm, meaning everything from ForgeWorld, to custom scenarios, to home-brewed rules, to armies that don’t have a current codex (such as Lost and the Damned), to Chapter Approved material or even the current expansions like Cities of Death, Apocalypse and Planetstrike, because they don’t fit their notion of what constitutes ’standard 40k’. The ‘opponent’s permission’ tag exacerbates this problem because it implies that there is somehow a reason for that permission to be denied. It sows doubt people’s minds, and makes them think there must be something ‘wrong’ with whatever is opponents permission material, or that it is unbalanced or over-powered. After all, if it was OK it wouldn’t need opponents permission now, would it? Therefore a section of the gaming population will automatically refuse that permission, excluding half the game of 40k for no real reason other than they feel it is not ‘official’.

Another thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229717) highlights this divide even further as people complain that in White Dwarf battle reports, the participants often play unique or special scenarios, or change the army composition to suit the narrative, or sometimes get rules wrong. Never mind the fact that battle reports are frequently played and recorded months before they are published, quite possibly when the rules for the armies in question are still in development. Some people have the view that battle reports should be designed to show people how the game is meant to be played (i.e. strictly according to the rulebook and codices). I would suggest that they actually are doing this – that the game is not intended to be played strictly following the rules. Rather, the rules are intended as guidelines to help people make their own fun – be it playing a scenario, competing in a tournament or making their own units and characters.

Having been into 40k since I bought the first edition on the day it came out in 1987, I don’t really recognise the concept of ’standard 40k’. For me, all these elements that those people exclude are as much a part of the core experience as the codexes and basic rulebook. I’m quite happy to construct an army list within the constraints of a tournament rule set when I’m paying in a tournament, but I really don’t understand why those restrictions should apply in any other play environment. Perhaps it’s because I’m from a roleplaying background, and don’t really get the competitive side of the hobby too much, or maybe it’s because my formative 40k experiences were in an era where experimentation and ‘non-standard’ things in games were the norm.

Fundamentally though I think the issue is one of courtesy – I don’t think that there’s really ever any good reason to deny an opponent permission to use anything they damn well feel like when pursuing their hobby. I think the default response to “I’d like to use my ForgeWorld/Chapter Approved/home-brewed units, is that OK ?” should pretty much always be a resounding “yes”. Equally though, common courtesy dictates that you wouldn’t spring this stuff on a new opponent without letting them know what it does first. I just can’t see any reason to ever refuse to play because of what toys you’re bringing to the game. Certainly I’ll play any obscure or wacky army, unit, custom character or scenario you care to come up with. I look forward to it.

fall3nang3l
26-11-2009, 00:12
*double take* when did i sign up for history class. ^

I think dont think i would enjoy a game against a FW army because i dont know the rules. not that they are worse or anything. It wouldnt seem fair to play a game with rules that you dont know. so clearly my opponent knows every special rule of his units but i dont. and sitting reading the rulebook proves its legal, but i still wouldnt be able to remember what each unit does. so i feel like i would be at a disadvantage. Maybe after the first couple of games i would feel more comfortable but i think i would have more fun when we both equally understand the rules. i enjoy playing for the tactical aspect of the game.
Its like when you play against an opponent who has never played a game before. They generally know what they can and cant do but your experience gives you an unfair advantage that has nothing to do with legality.

mdauben
26-11-2009, 00:21
I have a large number of FW models. You can't play IG without them now, unless you want to start doing a lot of scratch built models, which is not something I have enough time for. As a result, I have 2 Vanquishers, 1 Conqueror, 1 Executioner, 1 Exterminator, 1 Griffon, 1 Hydra Flak Tank, plus side skirts (extra armor) on a Chimera, just for starters.
And of course, despite being FW kits are all offical units from Codex: Imperial Guard. I don't think anyone in their right mind could object to using FW kits or FW bits to model offical codex units.

Its when we get into the non-codex units that exist only in one of the IA books that people start to become wary because of percieved problems with game balance on some of them. Since the FW-only rules are spread through over a half dozen expensive and hard to find books, its hard for each player to research which units look okay, and which appear unbalanced so its easier to just say they don't want to play with any FW units.


Gamers who refuse to play an opponent that wishes to use the FW unit and actually has the rules available for perusal, are limiting their gaming experience and are in effect saying they are only playing to win.
Sorry, but this is totally untrue and ignores that fact that there are indeed valid problems with some FW-only rules.


There are overcosted / underpowered units... that seem to never actually appear in the game. Meanwhile any exploitable option (You get to call in a second set of ordance attacks?!) is min-maxed into the ground.
I have a number of "dress up" FW kits in my armies and love the unique look it gives my miniatures. I actually like the idea of some of the original stuff they put out, but other stuff looks unbalanced as hell to me and like Zeep, those overpowered vehicles are the ones I most often see other players try to bring to the game. :rolleyes:

Mannimarco
26-11-2009, 01:09
fall3nang3l: the same could be said for any book though couldnt it? you might not enjoy the game against a forgeworld model as you dont know all the rules to it and the guy using it does

by that logic there are many people out there who have not read every codex, i might not enjoy a game against a necron army, i dont know all its rules but the guy who is using it does, i can read the rule book but wouldnt remember everything during the game

i might not enjoy a game against a tyranid army, i havnt read the codex and dont know what all those biomorphs do, i could read it before the game yeah but im bound to forget somthing while playing and could potentially feel cheated if its sprung on me during the game etc etc

boreas
26-11-2009, 01:14
That's why I don't play against strangers. Fortunately, all my close friends play WH40k. We have a well established circle of 6 players, all of us having 2 armies. We use FW stuff all the time. sometimes, things a deemed overpowered and are not used except in Apocalypse (Lucius pattern drop-pods that are "assault vehicle" is an example).

What you should do is introduce FW units slowly. Use a known codex (ie Imperial Guards). Come with 2 lists: one pure dex and the other with one FW unit. ASk the player to use the second one. If he doesn't want to, use the first one. Most players will be OK with a single FW unit. Curious, even, especially if the unit is well built and painted. That ought to break the ice. Try not to go overboard with funky stuff or "combo" stuff. I remember a friend of mine bringing 2 griffon mortars with infernus shells(the IA update 2005 version). Any unit hit by the blast must make an immediate fall back move (no Ld test!). Well, after a game where he had first turn and caused a few enemy units to run off the board, there was a strong "anti-FW" reaction.

Phil

ooglatjama
26-11-2009, 04:12
I played against FW once, and I won't do it again. He used 3 flier things and I couldn't even hit them because my army has no AA or pintle mounted weapons. Basically he had 3 godly things that I could do nothing about.

Giganthrax
26-11-2009, 04:16
Damn, this thread inspired me to go and check the downloadable FW rules, and boy oh boy, do I wish they put Damocles Rhinos and Dreadnought Drop Pods into the next vanilla codex! :D

I mean, while I sure wish this stuff gets into standard codexes (it would make me one happy panda), it just doesn't seem like something I'd love to play against with my regular codex list. I mean, a dreadnought charging my land raider in turn 1 after coming from a mishap-free deep strike? There's a reason why DS-ing units can't assault after DS-ing.

Mannimarco
26-11-2009, 04:26
ooglatjama: see thats one of the things you should be able to knock back from forgeworld, flyers, superheavies and gargantuan creatures but theres a massive difference between "hey can i take this autocannon turret for my chimera" and "hey im taking 3 aircraft you havnt got a chance in hell of shooting down" one you could knock back and rightfully so

unfortunately a lot of people either cannot or will not seperate forgeworld from cheese, theres a consensus that if your using it its because you want to be a WAAC jerk and your obviously seeking some kind of advantage, while theres no doubt in my mind this is true in some cases (its also the case of codex players, hello lash/oblit spam and biker nob lists) its entirely possible that the person using forgeworld models is doing so for fun rather than to WAAC

giganthrax, we can only hope these models, nice as they are, are in the next codex otherwise you havnt got a chance in hell of using them, I mean come on a damocles command rhino? man how cheesy and and game breaking is that thing

DuskRaider
26-11-2009, 04:34
"Man, I'd hate to play against Forge World lists. Seriously, I may not win the game then, and how would that be fair or fun to me?"

:rolleyes:

Giganthrax
26-11-2009, 04:38
giganthrax, we can only hope these models, nice as they are, are in the next codex otherwise you havnt got a chance in hell of using them, I mean come on a damocles command rhino? man how cheesy and and game breaking is that thing
I suppose that was sacrasm, but anyway, having a str 10 ap1 barrage pieplate is huge. I play Pedro quite often. I know. Trust me. Also, being able to reroll a reserve roll and deep strike scatters is massive. Also, after the rhino expends its bombardment, it becomes mobile cover. And you get all that for 60 points.

Won't even start on the dreadnought assault drop pod, lol.



Seriously, I don't even believe there's such a thing as cheese, but I do feel that playing against an army that uses FW rules with a regular codex army puts the codex player under a significant disadvantage. Now, if both players played FW rules that'd be OK, I guess, but then it wouldn't really differ from just playing homegrown rules.

Dark_Templar
26-11-2009, 04:43
So do people have a problem with the fact my Cadians have FW helmets?...