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Tenken
24-11-2009, 03:21
What army has the best movement phase? I mean overall, throughout the army not just a unit or two. For instance Bret knights have great movement, but their peasants seriously lack in the department.

I'm sort of in the market for another army (perhaps come x-mas time) and I think I want a very manueverable (and hopefully fast) army. Right now it seems to me that either wood elves or beastmen have some of the most manueverable armies, what with all the skirmishers and raiders respectively. Wood elves also have some stupidly fast cav that can also be pretty hard hitting in the form of wild riders. But I confess I haven't looked over the armies very hard for overall movement win.

So I ask you all, who has the best, overall, movement phase?

warhawk95
24-11-2009, 03:45
three armies come to mind. the first as you said is wood elves. they are fast and very fast. they have 2 fast cav units (one is ItP, but still gets the reform bonuses other being core as well). they have the best core skirmishers in the game with dryads. WD are also very good, and WW are one of the best scout units as well. 2 types of flyers in WHR and the GE, plus treesingin means they can potentially move in the magic phase. the alter character is an18" charge range character on foot, so yea they are quick.

DE are the second army that comes to mind. they can play a similar game to WE, DR are arguably the best fast cav in the game, harpies are really quick, shades are fast too. COK are solid as well, but the problem is they have alot of infantry as well so this might not be the best since the whole army isnt quick like WE.

The last one, and proably not the most obvious, is TK. IMO these guys can be a very fast army. the potential to cast movment spells means that carrions get a 40" charge range,that means warmachines are done in turn one. your oppenent can easily think that they are safe but little do they realize that the tomb guard have a 4" foward movment but an 8" charge, basically giving them a 12" charge range. now this is very very magic dependent, but with the casket your oppenent is guaranteed to save some DDs or scrolls so it is possible to make this army quick. VC could be here, but IMO they have less reliable magic and they dont always use the movment spell, a chariot heavy TK army will almost exclusievly use this spell.

In the end the fastest army is proably WE, all their units are M5, the ranked units they do have are rarely taken or not used to see combat. and they have plenty of rules to help them move quicker in forests. Dont count out the TK though because they can be a quick army as well, just not as obvious.

Cragum
24-11-2009, 03:45
well i would say your missing a very fast and agile handy army in the form of skaven!
nothing really goes under 5" basic movement, and you have alot of units what have a nice trick of moving 12" on charge! and thats infantry.

they have good stand back units along with nice skirmys who can always use the fact they arent ranked up to sneak up. sadly night runners lost that perk in the new book but gutter runners still do.

also due to new units you can now get a unit of standard clanrats out where ever you want with tunnel team rules being expanded. your problem iss with skaven is they arent always going to work correctly or in my case in last games ive had they work perfectly and evily to point people kinda dont like you for your luck :D

hope that helps!

Tenken
24-11-2009, 03:51
well i would say your missing a very fast and agile handy army in the form of skaven!
nothing really goes under 5" basic movement, and you have alot of units what have a nice trick of moving 12" on charge! and thats infantry.

they have good stand back units along with nice skirmys who can always use the fact they arent ranked up to sneak up. sadly night runners lost that perk in the new book but gutter runners still do.

also due to new units you can now get a unit of standard clanrats out where ever you want with tunnel team rules being expanded. your problem iss with skaven is they arent always going to work correctly or in my case in last games ive had they work perfectly and evily to point people kinda dont like you for your luck :D

hope that helps!

Yeah, I really have no love for skaven, and with the complete lack of cav (which I adore) they don't look very appealing. Plus the fact that you need massive units to ensure they don't run when they lose by 1 means they're not very maneuverable. Sure they can scurry in a straight line pretty fast, but they have a hard time redirecting. Although some of their stuff, like the hellpit and the doomwheel can be surprisingly fast the idea of rolling for movement seems.... dubious.

Foegnasher
24-11-2009, 03:55
Plus the fact that you need massive units to ensure they don't run when they lose by 1 means they're not very maneuverable. .

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ok. please read the batrep in my sig and see what a skaven horde does to a "manuverable" army.

non of my units are bigger than 30, most are 25.

Tenken
24-11-2009, 03:57
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ok. please read the batrep in my sig and see what a skaven horde does to a "manuverable" army.

non of my units are bigger than 30, most are 25.

I don't care if it beats a maneuverable army, I care if it IS a maneuverable army.

Condottiere
24-11-2009, 04:09
Lots of armies have the potential, but it depends on selection and tactics.

One definition could be getting the troops where they are wanted and needed ASAP, or as it's once been said, getting there with the mostest, fastest.

samuraibobx
24-11-2009, 04:27
If you can wait for a little bit past Christmas, I'd highly recommend the new Beastmen. Think Wood Elves, but less pansy fleeing with bows and more popping up on your flanks and I-WILL-RIP-YOUR-HEAD-OFF with lots of hard hitting units with big, nasty close combat weapons :D

That said, if you do want more shooting and a less evil-satyr like feel to them, Wood Elves are hard to beat. Dryads are possibly THE best skirmisher in the game and from what I recall form my battles against them, it is almost impossible to get them to stay still and die like I want them to.

I would check the Wood Elf tactica, the Beastmen rumor page, and the model prices because IIRC, Wood Elves are still mostly metal, while Beastmen will be plastic. On top of that, the plastic Herd boxes that are currently out are cheap and look good AND will be completely usable with the new rules (ignoring strange rumors like another base size swap for Ungors.)

But that's just my totally unbiased opinion :P

outbreak
24-11-2009, 05:08
If my spells go through i'd say my tomb kings. Best in the sense that i can do unexpected things (icon of rakaph charges ftw) and getting off first turn charges with chariots/carrion and the like.
I've had games where my 2 units of chariots run right through the enemies front lines and end the 2nd turn having overran into enemy elites who haven't had a chance to move and avoid impact hits

Laurela
24-11-2009, 05:21
Lizardmen can be a fairly quick army if you stick with a Skink horde, most of them have skirmish and flying abilities that you can really zip around the field and hit your enemy when you wish to.

ZeroTwentythree
24-11-2009, 05:35
TK seem most maneuverable to me. Unless you've got truely excessive amounts of magic defense to shut down their incantations, bound spells, etc. Sometimes takes a bot of finesse, but I think it's one of the more underestimated armies.

Second choice would be WE. Speed, skirmishing, fliers, fast cav. Very maneuverable. Pretty obvious.

I'll throw out dwarfs as a third choice, just to stir the pot. ;) Anvil, strollaz, that rune that forces bad enemy moves, rangers, miners. No march-blocking means they can move 6" when they're right next to you, then get a charge off with the anvil. Like the TK army, it takes a bit of finesse, but can be very effective.

thechosenone
24-11-2009, 05:41
ogres do a good movement phase. Small units size that is easy to turn, especially on the two man lead belchers. They have movement 6, not shabby at all. Charge blocking gnoblars and access to a scouting unit. All and all a good phase

BretonniaorDeath
24-11-2009, 05:43
Wow nobody said bretonnia...I am kind of offended. The standard bret army has about 75% cavalry but unlike wood elves they have durability so you have a whole army of durable 16 inch movement dudes. not to mention that most of the so-called "competitive" lists of brets have between 7-15 units of the best flying cav in the game. they may not be the best but they deserve to be in the discussion they are the only one who doesn't sacrifice durability for movement.

SatireSphere
24-11-2009, 05:54
Chaos Mortals and Dark Elves have the greatest potential for movement phases. Dark Elves have the ability to have an army of cavalry, fliers and very fast moving monsters.

Chaos Mortals have the ubiquitous army of marauder horsemen and chaos knights that is always deadly with all of the extremely fast maneuver elements.

ZeroTwentythree
24-11-2009, 05:58
The pegasi are great.

But the reason I'd pick some others before Brets is that the lance is a somewhat clumsy formation with big flanks.

Their fast cav have low LD, and their infantry & skirmishers are mediocre.

I'd put them below HE & DE in terms of maneuverability. Better than Skaven and Empire.

505
24-11-2009, 06:01
not the most reliable but OnG is a option (but many others beat them)

2x chariots
2x heavy cav
1x med cav (wolfriders with shields)
2x light cav and one of them ignores difficult terrain

Tenken
24-11-2009, 06:06
Lizardmen can be a fairly quick army if you stick with a Skink horde, most of them have skirmish and flying abilities that you can really zip around the field and hit your enemy when you wish to.

Yeah thats my current army. I usually only take 1 block of 18 saurus and 1 block of 20 temple guard for my slann, otherwise monsters and skinks. I'm starting to really like the speed, 6 is quite alot, so that's why I'm looking for a fast, maneuverable army as my next army.

Wood elves are looking pretty sweet. Beastmen are cool, but low leadership puts me off quite alot. My sister actually has TK, so if I ever wanna play them I can just swipe hers.:D Ogres could be compelling when, and if, they get a new book. I like the whole concept of the army but currently it just seems... lacking.

The Red Scourge
24-11-2009, 06:41
Wood Elves do have the added perks that all cc units are ItP, so they won't fail you, when you need them. Their native lore can move both units and terrain. And even our missile units move a lot.

Also they're the cool elven army, neither prissy atlanteans of a lost civilisation, nor emo teens with pointy bits, but instead cool sneaky, xenophobic elves with lots of style - and the best models :)

ChaosVC
24-11-2009, 08:09
I think Woodies are exellent at maneuvering, others are either simply able to move faster or slower.

Quarrel
24-11-2009, 09:07
Another thought to look at is a mainly Slaanesh Demons of Chaos army.

M6 ranks infantry, easily the most manoeverable cavalry in the game - M10 and fast cavalry. M10 monsters in rare. M10 chariots for your heroes, M10 greater demon or a flying prince for your lord. Then as your only non slaanesh thing, add some furies for flying skirmishers.

Crazily fast, but with enough significant weaknesses that you shouldn't get caught in the anti demon attitude that people (deservedly) have.

Cartoon
24-11-2009, 09:28
Chaos Mortals have the ubiquitous army of marauder horsemen and chaos knights that is always deadly with all of the extremely fast maneuver elements.

You can also toss some Tzeentch exalted champs or sorcerers on discs and give yourself some flying support. Slaanesh characters mounted on steeds of Slaanesh have M 10 and are fast cav so they can move at a good pace as well.

More importantly, warhounds will be able to keep the pace of your mounted, and much more expensive, troops so you have a cheap meat shield to accompany your all calv force.

SatireSphere
24-11-2009, 09:32
You can also toss some Tzeentch exalted champs or sorcerers on discs and give yourself some flying support. Slaanesh characters mounted on steeds of Slaanesh have M 10 and are fast cav so they can move at a good pace as well.

More importantly, warhounds will be able to keep the pace of your mounted, and much more expensive, troops so you have a cheap meat shield to accompany your all calv force.

I think if you include the disc guys you're not playing to the strength of the list, which is to have almost a cavalry horde that can outflank and surround enemy formations.

5 Marauder horsemen with flails is the workhorse of the list and taking 4-5 units of them isn't a bad investment at all. They usually are flankers, but in a pinch they can kill war machines (something chaos has a bit of a harder time doing now that furies aren't in the list), or even charge the front of lighter units like empire detachments and MSU blocks.

Toshiro
24-11-2009, 10:47
The last one, and proably not the most obvious, is TK. IMO these guys can be a very fast army. the potential to cast movment spells means that carrions get a 40" charge range,that means warmachines are done in turn one. your oppenent can easily think that they are safe but little do they realize that the tomb guard have a 4" foward movment but an 8" charge, basically giving them a 12" charge range. now this is very very magic dependent, but with the casket your oppenent is guaranteed to save some DDs or scrolls so it is possible to make this army quick. VC could be here, but IMO they have less reliable magic and they dont always use the movment spell, a chariot heavy TK army will almost exclusievly use this spell.


Aye, I second this one. I play TK myself and I've suprised my opponents more then once with a heavy chariot assault when they thought they were safe. The TK magic is very reliable for getting charges off since it never fails, the opponent have to use dispel dices or scrolls to stop you. :)

The Red Scourge
24-11-2009, 12:49
There is a big difference between being fast and being maneuverable.

Both WoC and Brets can be very fast, but they suffer from a 90' LOS and either wide units needing lots of wheeling or extremely large flanks. An army with a good maneuverability can easily hide from and outflank both these armies.

Wood elves on the other hand has skirmishers with 360' LOS, and even their fighty cavalry is 'fast cavalry'. This allows the army to react to any enemy moves and outmaneuver them every time.

ZeroTwentythree
24-11-2009, 15:40
There is a big difference between being fast and being maneuverable.


I totally agree.


Part of the reason I listed TK & Dwarfs is because they can effectively get two separate movements.

Against most formed units, the enemy can position themselves out of LOS in order to avoid being charged. But a dwarf or TK unit can turn, wheel or reform in their movement phase, then move again (charging, for example) in their magic phase. This can also be used offensively -- move up on an enemy flank, turn, charge flank. Or move a greater distance and use extra movement to threaten a flank next turn.

Similarly both armies can move troops from off the table (miners & tunnelers) in the movement phase and then charge them in the magic phase.

An opponent needs to be aware of what the enemy can do over the course of two moves instead of one, and it adds an element of surprise to their maneuver.

orkz222
24-11-2009, 15:52
fast cav that can also be pretty hard hitting in the form of wild riders.

So I ask you all, who has the best, overall, movement phase?

Wild riders :cries: are sad at least to me... maybe just my dice rolls but they have disappoint me numerous times.

I would vote DOC: Slaanesh theme army.

Storak
24-11-2009, 16:30
not the most reliable but OnG is a option (but many others beat them)

2x chariots
2x heavy cav
1x med cav (wolfriders with shields)
2x light cav and one of them ignores difficult terrain

i strongly disagree. animosity has to be factored in. O&G lose 1/6 of their movement. basically our "heavy cav" is barely faster than elven infantry....

The Red Scourge
24-11-2009, 18:03
Wild riders :cries: are sad at least to me... maybe just my dice rolls but they have disappoint me numerous times.

I stopped relying on kills for my wild riders. Banner and warbanner to hit the flank/rear thats about it. They rarely manage to kill anything, but as long as they do not die too much, they usually get the job done :)

They do however seem to be made of much sturdier stuff than my chaos knights, who seem to miss just about every armor save they take :cries:


Part of the reason I listed TK & Dwarfs is because they can effectively get two separate movements.

Exactly, movement spells are extremely powerful tools in the game - theres a reason why Van Hels Dance Macabre always come up in the VC whine threads :rolleyes:

Getting your hardhitting hammer unit into the flank of an enemy battle line, will usually end up with more devastating consequences than slinging magic missiles :)

warhawk95
24-11-2009, 18:23
WR tend to get some kills but it depends what im charging. calvary and T4 they are decent on the charge maybe a kill though. but i find them to be at their best against T3 infantry because they kill some on the chrage but are much better after the charge if they have to stay (but they shouldnt) because 2 S4 is nice, so its nice that they have good staying power unlike WD.

505
24-11-2009, 20:02
i strongly disagree. animosity has to be factored in. O&G lose 1/6 of their movement. basically our "heavy cav" is barely faster than elven infantry....

though statistically everyone will have animosity once (and charge once) plus they get the waagh


it was being thrown in as a fast army. as I love my spider riders through the terrain

Storak
24-11-2009, 20:52
though statistically everyone will have animosity once (and charge once) plus they get the waagh

animosity is simply horrible for cavalry. it depends on the charge, animosity in the crucial turn simply kills the unit. our "best" cavalry requires screening, most often this will double the chance to fail the animosity test. (fast cav will often be the only thing fast enough to screen them)

cavalry loses 14 to 18 inches on a squabble result, and gains 3.5 on a "we ll show em". and those extra move might not even be in the right direction.

calling a waaagh is bad news for cavalry. d6 wounds with no save has the potential of wiping expensive units out. with no ranks, only a few units could benefit by a +1 on the roll, for a character.



it was being thrown in as a fast army. as I love my spider riders through the terrain

i understand your feeling about the army, but i think that it is not founded on facts.

the spiders, with animosity factored in, will be slower than a hydra, while moving through that terrain....

Shiodome
24-11-2009, 23:17
it's clearly Wood Elves as an overall 'attribute' of the army. You can make specific builds with other armies that are fast and manouverable... but for WE's it's their bread and butter.

hell even their missile infantry is 'fast' compared to other equivalents. being able to move and shot with no penalty means they get used in a very mobile fashion.

SatireSphere
25-11-2009, 01:11
You don't need 360 line of sight to be "maneuverable".

I'd definitely argue that fast cav are more maneuverable than skirmishers. They usually move twice as fast, can reform at will and have a much smaller footprint allowing less clutter along your battle line.

Speed and correct placement is all you need to be maneuverable as an army general.

Phelix
25-11-2009, 01:19
hmmmm Id say a lot of armies can be great in the movement phase if they tailor to it (Dwarves excluded)

Lets see

Empire: Knights as core, good fast cavalry

Ogre Kingdoms: Mv 6 army makes for a fast (if weak) army

Wood Elves: holy f*@% skirmishers

Dark Elves & High Elves: fast infantry and faster cavalry!

Skaven: lots of Mv 5 units

Brettonia: uhm pretty much a solid cavalry army...

others CAN be tailored for good movement, but it seems like its more straining.