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DeadlySquirrel
24-11-2009, 20:48
Why?

Ive had a glance and it's not too bad. The troops are broken as hell but really thats it? And why does everyone seem to think that every army uses the spacewolf codex?

Urath
24-11-2009, 20:50
Why?

Ive had a glance and it's not too bad. The troops are broken as hell but really thats it? And why does everyone seem to think that every army uses the spacewolf codex?

What the hell? Their Grey Hunters and Blood Claws aren't 'broken'.

SpinningC
24-11-2009, 20:51
To answer your question bud every marine player will play about with a new power armoured codex when it comes out to see if it can improve there list. I still favour the marine codex. The wolves are nice to do realy nice fluffy things if you want like terminators leading squads into battle. Makes the iron hands almost doable which is realy nice. I cant say that theres not some broken things, like wolf guard battle leaders who can outflank with wolf scouts is abit hard. I do agree there troops are a little bit nails but thats about it realy.

SpinningC

SPYDER68
24-11-2009, 20:51
Everyone always hates the new codex.

People hated 3++ stormshields with marines
People hated IG and valks and half the stuff they got
People hate the new wolves
People are preparing to hate the new nids till the next is released.

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 20:55
the fact that the troops are "broken as hell" as you put it is reason enough to hate somthing, does anybody hat twin lash prince and 9 obliterators? yes and why? because its broken as hell, broken things are hated

the reason people think everybody uses the space wolf codex is when it was released people realised the power level was increased considerably, so much so that we had threads popping up left right and centre with some truly bizzare comparisons "necrons as space wolves" "eldar using the space wolf codex" "chaos space marines as space wolves" etc

several of those people who used a vulkan led ultramarine army "cuz it fits my armies style better innit" now using space wolves "cuz its closer the the style i wanted from the start"

its the way of the world that when a new book is released people will jump on the bandwagon chasing the increased power levels, ill prove it when the new nid codex comes out soon and we start to see all those vulkan led ultrawolves use the nid codex "cuz its exactly wot i wanted for my theme"

Deetwo
24-11-2009, 20:57
SW troops are pretty far from broken to be honest.. (just csm with counter-charge, yay)
It's a very solid codex, I'll give you that. But it's no CSM or Orks.

Won't take long until it blows over.. Afterall, Nids are getting released in two months :)

Forgotmytea
24-11-2009, 20:58
I don't hate their codex, I just hate them fluff-wise. But then, as a long-time Thousand Sons supporter, you can understand why :p

DeadlySquirrel
24-11-2009, 21:00
@Urath - By broken I mean they get a bolt pistol, a ccw and counter attack AND acute senses for 1pt LESS than a codex marine. Broken enough for you?

Deetwo
24-11-2009, 21:03
@Urath - By broken I mean they get a bolt pistol, a ccw and counter attack AND acute senses for 1pt LESS than a codex marine. Broken enough for you?

Also cheaper weapons and better wargear options :)

MarshalFaust
24-11-2009, 21:04
rules wise i think they did a good job, im not a huge fan of the direction they took the fluff but thats neither here nor there. I would never begrudge someone for what codex they choose to play with. Once you have been in the hobby a few codex cycles you notice trends with how everyone cries about the new broken codex and if you value your sanity you will choose to ignore most of it.

loveless
24-11-2009, 21:04
@Urath - By broken I mean they get a bolt pistol, a ccw and counter attack AND acute senses for 1pt LESS than a codex marine. Broken enough for you?

Apparently, CCW + Acute Senses + Counter Attack < Combat Squad + Combat Tactics + Access to Chapter Tactics

DeadlySquirrel
24-11-2009, 21:09
@ loveless, I don't understand. Are you being sarcastic? =S

pom134
24-11-2009, 21:23
Apparently, CCW + Acute Senses + Counter Attack < Combat Squad + Combat Tactics + Access to Chapter Tactics


Combat tactics is HUGE. And unless I'm mistaken, taking chapter tactis makes you lose combat tactics most of the time.

This is why I hate:

This puts CSM even more in the hole. My regular marines used to be the best troops choice in the game. Along comes Grey Hunters and now I'm outclassed in the troops choice as well as being perpetually outclassed in every other section.

HQ:
Lords are garbage. 5++ with only a MoT to make me better. Can't even use psychic powers if I do that. Access to awful equipment. No orbital bombardment.

Sorceror is too expensive. 100 points and SM get 2 powers. 100 points and I get nothing. Sure my stats are better but he's not a powerhouse ot begin with.

DP are fun but again, expensive. Plus they get shot down very easily with only 3+/5++ without MoT which is prohibitively expensive for only a 17% more chance to save. GG sniper rifles.

Elites:
My terminators USED to be superior. Cheaper, access to LC and MoS as well as combi weapons. Then along came the 3++ TH/SS. Outclasses anything i can do with my terminators.

Possessed. lol

Dreadnoughts. lol

Chosen are my only infiltrators. If they were scoring units I would have no issues at all with them.

Troops:
My CSM are, in my opinion, SLIGHTLY better than codex marines. I have the option of taking a HW but it ties up a full squad of 10 instead of just 5. Advantage marines. However I get the extra CC attack, advantage me. This is what makes CSM a CC army as far as I'm concerned. Along come Grey Hunters and hence my complaint.

Cult Troops:
They are all "good" in varying situation. The problem is for the price you pay its way too easy for an opponent to not let them perform in their element. Too expensive.

Fast Attack:
Bikes are overpriced. no codex here, what are they 30 points? SM are 25. Stupid.

Raptors are overpriced. Give me Hit and Run back and I'll pay a few more points. For now they are just Assault marines that cost 2 points more each.

Spawn. lol

HS
Predator. Overpriced

LR. only one kind and no PoTMS. SO STUPID. I'll pay 30 points if you want me to, I really will.

Vindicator. The same, no complaints.

Havocs. Mmmm autocannons. No auspex or plasma cannons though. Outclassed

Obliterators. Awesome unit; my one CLEAR advantage.

Daemons:
Lesser are fun, if a bit risky. 2nd turn deepstirke can suck but if they come at the right time yummy.

Haven't actually used greater, don't have a model.

Special characters: I don't have to say anything, mine are a joke. It's like comparing a 3rd edition codex to a new one. Stupid.

What don't I have: Sterngaurd, Vangaurd, Assault Termies, Honor Guard, Landspeeders, Scouts, Command Squads, Drop Pods. Theres some more stuff I'm sure but I'm done for now.





So that is my complaint. When literally EVERYONE OF MY UNITS EXCEPT FOR TWO are clearly outclassed by their SM equivalents, you go and add a new codex that keeps all of my same stuff inferior and then you go and make one of those two good units inferior as well. All I have left that is truly mine is obliterators. Thanks.

DeadlySquirrel
24-11-2009, 21:35
Why dont you do a CSm army using the SW dex, seems everyone else does =p

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 21:40
he would but the store was sold out, bunch of Tau players thought the space wolf codex better represented their sept

problem with the space wolf codex is we have all seen far to many people do this, it really does begin to grate after a while

DeadlySquirrel
24-11-2009, 21:48
has this ever happeed before? or is it just "OMG! GW HAS DECIDED TO UPDATE ALL IMPERIALZ EVEN THO THEY DONT NEED IT! OMFG THEY MADE IT OVERPOWERED! SW FTW!! ?

Inquisitor Kallus
24-11-2009, 22:02
@Urath - By broken I mean they get a bolt pistol, a ccw and counter attack AND acute senses for 1pt LESS than a codex marine. Broken enough for you?


And lose combat tactics, combat squadding and the choice to have a heavy weapon,...........oh wait, i'm only allowed to look at what the Space Wolves have, compared to what Space Marines don't have, to cry broken? My bad..........;):angel:

Corsair117
24-11-2009, 22:07
i think the problem with the wolves is, like Mannimarco said, the fact that it's a new codex thus everyone has begun using it as "counts as" for whatever army they happen to play.

Give it a few months and the wolves will probably settle into their own and ,with exception of rules they seemingly "borrowed" from other armies causing grief, they'll just be another army.

My one gripe with them is that you can basically take any random smurf dialog, throw in some gratuitous violence and replace any uses of the word "smurf" or its variations with the word "wolf" or its variations and you'll get what apparently amounts to GWs mental images of them.:eyebrows:

Hicks
24-11-2009, 22:11
And lose combat tactics, combat squadding and the choice to have a heavy weapon,...........oh wait, i'm only allowed to look at what the Space Wolves have, compared to what Space Marines don't have, to cry broken? My bad..........;):angel:

Except that those things that regular SMs have aren't nearly as good as the stuff SW get.

DeadlySquirrel
24-11-2009, 22:15
@ Hicks. This is exactly my point about the broken. For 1 point less, who cares if you loose combat tactics?

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 22:16
oh and one last thing i forgot to add:

wolfy m'cwolf armed with the wolf claws who rides a wolf! really? they have a thing about wolves......i know its kinnda subtle but if you look closely you can see it

Dark_Templar
24-11-2009, 22:16
I think they were just way over exposed for my liking and the amoung of people banging on about their awesomeness and how they will be using them as a "counts-as" army kinda killed it for me.

The WD battle report between SW & Daemons was the final nail in the coffin.

Deetwo
24-11-2009, 22:17
Except that those things that regular SMs have aren't nearly as good as the stuff SW get.

You consider ccw, counter charge and acute senses to be far better than combat squads, combat tactics and chapter tactics? :D

Wow :D
Seriously, I would gladly give up counter charge and acute senses in exchange to Shrikes or Vulkans chapter tactics.. And you can even keep combat squads too!

Stop comparing GHs to Tacticals... They are a completely different unit with very different roles.
The accurrate comparison is CSM units. And that book has far better troops.

Urath
24-11-2009, 22:17
Accute Sense and Counter Attack is effectively their combat tactics; you say this is more overpowered than Vulkan or Kantor's combat tactics?; more so than Shrike's fleeting Terminators.

They have a close combat weapon and bolt pistol. Oh no, IMBA!

Hicks
24-11-2009, 22:24
You guys realize that Shrike or Vulcan aren't free and they certainly don't make everything cheaper in your army.?

Also, SW special characters are certainly not bad either, since they seem to be included in almost every list you see in the tactics forum.

Dark_Templar
24-11-2009, 22:27
Damn, I have been taking Shrike and Vulkan for free and using both their chapter tactics, is that not allowed?:confused::angel:

Deetwo
24-11-2009, 22:31
Also, SW special characters are certainly not bad either, since they seem to be included in almost every list you see in the tactics forum.

They aren't really all that good either.
Just because people want to play the new shiny SCs doesn't make them the good choice :)

It's rather interesting we have a thread like this and people are just groaning about the grunts and the real stars of the book are not even mentioned.
:rolleyes:

Phelix
24-11-2009, 22:48
I don't hate all Space wolves....

I don't hate those who've been with the army before they were powerful.

and I don't hate those who wanted to pick them up just because they were getting a new codex.


I hate those who picked them up because they were reportedly the strongest list or because they were getting cheap tricks. Its people like that who ruin the hobby...

Dark_Templar
24-11-2009, 22:49
I can never bring myself to field Special Characters, as I refuse to believe they would stop whatever important battle they are taking part in to come and help out my skirmish against the orks, victory against whom means that the local moon gets their annual supply of powdered milk.

As much as I wouldn't mind having Kantor in my CF army, I just cannot seem to do it. Perhaps because I would rather have the option of customising my own commander rather than being told what they should have, regardless of how special they might be.

Deetwo
24-11-2009, 22:50
I hate those who picked them up because they were reportedly the strongest list

Atleast those people will be strongly disappointed :)


I refuse to believe they would stop whatever important battle they are taking part in to come and help out my skirmish against the orks

Skirmishes can often be parts of bigger wars though.
And how do you figure killing a Warboss or their Big Mek is not the most important battle there is? :D

Badger[Fr]
24-11-2009, 22:56
A handful of undercosted troops, fancy HQ choices, and a grossly overpowered psychic power aren't nearly enough to make an army broken in the first place. But well, trying to argue with the infamous Warseer Cheese brigade (no, they have nothing to do with Skavens) is a waste of time...

I do admit I had my WTF moments when I read the SW Codex, but I tried to avoid hasty conclusions. Each book has its cheap/overpowered units (even the Tau or the Necron), so I'd better learn how to beat them instead of posting whine threads.

Mort
24-11-2009, 23:10
I can only speak for myself:

I dont hate the SW codex nor do i hate SW players. I even felt sorry for the SW players a long time, since their codex took a decade until it was updated. (I also feel sorry for the DE players, but thats another point)

BUT, and thats quiete a big issue i have with the new book, too many people are using it to do some kind of "representing" other armies.
Examples i have seen myself are a World Eater army, a Word Bearer Army, 2 hombrewed loyal chapters, a Necron (!!!!!!!!!!WTF!!!!!!!!!!) Army and one half hearted try to use the codex with Iron Warriors.

Now, since we (or at least most of us) live in free countries, anybody can play the he wants, can use the models he wants to use and can use the codex book he wants to use as well. I dont have any issues with that, i even encourage people i meet to write codices for , say Genestealer Cults, or to try to give their miniature collection some uniqueness. Furhtermore, i play a homebrew chapter myself, so i would never call anybody names for developing own fluff for his/her army.

But, sadly the thing with the SW Codex is that the book got hyped up like no other book before. Sure, everybody was afraid of 9 Leman Russes, or 3+ Stormshields, dirt cheap Orkboys or Plague Marines with FNP. In the Weeks before the release of the SW Codex, many people were complaining and exaggerating.

Now many Players that felt that their respective codex was/is underpowered decided that they would try to proxy their armies with the new SW book. The problem was that there are quiete a lot power armoured armies that can be proxied by using the SW Codex. (Witch Hunters, Demon Hunters, BA, Chaos in all flavors, loyal marines)
The result was that a whole lot of folks jumped on the SW bandwagon and soon found out that they werent the only brilliant individuals trying to improve their lots in gaming by using a list supposed to be the best the game has to offer at the moment. (as the internet said it was the best, it had to be true)

Many people on said bandwagon didnt want to admit that the only reason for their choice of the SW codex was that they wanted a stronger List, so they made up reasons (and still defend them with a demonic fury) why the SW codex fits their army better than the armys own codex book. And thats my (and i think not only mine, but that of many others) only problem i have with the SW codex.

to make it short:

NOBODY HAS A PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE USING THE SW BOOK FOR THEIR MODELS, BUT PLEASE JUST ADMIT THAT YOU WANT A STRONG LIST AND GIVE A F(/&%%) ABOUT THE FLUFF OF YOUR ARMIES.

There surely are lots of people who just want to play SWs, and i would play them any day, but there are also a lot of lazy people that want to use the good rules but dont want to invest time in a new army. The same people will find reasons to justify the use of the BA codex as soon as it comes out, just because for the sake of power gaming, and that is just plainly wrong and has nothing to do with sportsmanship.

Sorry for the long text, but im a bit angry over the whole subject and had to write it down.

ehlijen
24-11-2009, 23:50
See my sig as to why I dislike (but not really hate) the SW codex's existance. But apart from some seriously dodgy rune priest stuff I don't actually see any problems.

mightymconeshot
24-11-2009, 23:53
so wait i can use my sw as nids. i mean they both chop things up and drink alot.

no in all seriousness it is because the world almsot stopped before the release do to the cries of broken. it started the bandwagons the band wagon haters then the haters of the band wagon haters and a never ending list of hate is born. give the nid dex time to release and everyone will drop the topic.

WH40KAj
24-11-2009, 23:54
I just read this and worry i'm going to see Chaos and Tau lists running around in a Tyranid Suit in 2months time O_o

Inquisitor Kallus
25-11-2009, 01:20
Except that those things that regular SMs have aren't nearly as good as the stuff SW get.


@ Hicks. This is exactly my point about the broken. For 1 point less, who cares if you loose combat tactics?

I care if i want a more 'tactical' force, a command squad that has feel no pain with an Apothecary, Terminators that can Deep Strike, and a host of other different units/wargear/options coupled with more adaptability than a SW list. I collect both Space Wolves and Space Marines.

Pooky
25-11-2009, 01:24
SW troops are pretty far from broken to be honest.. (just csm with counter-charge, yay)


You forgot to mention that they also have TSKNF as opposed to CSM.

I believe that the SW codex is broken.

gwarsh41
25-11-2009, 01:30
I dont get how people get mad about the wolf theme being stronger. Thats like me getting mad that Orks are green and angry.

As for that CSM player who just listed off how everything in his army sucks. Why do you still play them if not to complain about it all. I have seem plenty of CSM players destroy everything in their path, its not all about points, dont forget strategy.

ilikebmxbikes
25-11-2009, 01:30
my only gripe is that they now can ride huge wolves... i think that is sooo corny and just over the top... just made them way to blatant.

Curufew
25-11-2009, 01:51
I kind of dislike them due to their slight overpowerness. In a recent inaugural local club meeting, 3/4 of the armies present were space wolves. So most games ended up in a Wolf v Wolf affair.

After the gathering was over, I found that 2 more person are starting Space Wolves from the club.

pom134
25-11-2009, 02:21
I dont get how people get mad about the wolf theme being stronger. Thats like me getting mad that Orks are green and angry.

As for that CSM player who just listed off how everything in his army sucks. Why do you still play them if not to complain about it all. I have seem plenty of CSM players destroy everything in their path, its not all about points, dont forget strategy.

Not why my army sucks. Why SM stuff is better. There is a difference. And I play CSM because I love the models and being badass. And you are completely missing the point of my post. Given an evenly match opponent skill-wise, he has an advantage simply because he plays SM and I play CSM. That is the very definition of unbalanced.

Troah
25-11-2009, 02:31
I hate them because they're another space marines army, and space marines are more overrated in my opinion then the crappy xbox.

Arakanis
25-11-2009, 02:40
I hate them because they're another space marines army, and space marines are more overrated in my opinion then the crappy xbox.

You misspelled your name there, remove the "a" and the "h" and add "l" twice. ;)

Count de Monet
25-11-2009, 03:58
What's the problem? I thought a bunch of folks wanted all the power armored armies to use one codex? So what if it happens to be called "Codex: Space Wolves" instead of something else? :D

Phelix
25-11-2009, 05:17
Oh.... my post was against people who play it (not all people mind you)

honestly.... my beef is more of the fact that they get a codex all to themselves... just seems silly (but I guess a company does whats profitable, isn't that right Dark Eldar Players!)

Deetwo
25-11-2009, 07:28
honestly.... my beef is more of the fact that they get a codex all to themselves... just seems silly

You suggesting that Wolves should be in the vanilla codex, while practically everything about their structure is different from the codex marines?
Yeah, that makes sense.

It's like saying "CSM, SM, Sisters and Grey knights should be in the same book because they all have Power Armor".

Badger[Fr]
25-11-2009, 08:16
I kind of dislike them due to their slight overpowerness. In a recent inaugural local club meeting, 3/4 of the armies present were space wolves. So most games ended up in a Wolf v Wolf affair.
How does the Bandwagon syndrom prove that Space Wolves are indeed broken? Blame your opponents lack of imagination, not the game.

Narf
25-11-2009, 08:44
@Urath - By broken I mean they get a bolt pistol, a ccw and counter attack AND acute senses for 1pt LESS than a codex marine. Broken enough for you?

ok but take 10 of them, no other weapons, and take 10 tactical marines

the tactical marines get an extra LD can combat squad, use combat tactics and chapter tactics

the grey hunters cost 15 points less, have 1 less leadership, cant split up, have somthing that is useful in the first turn if an enemy is within 24" and the GH dont move, and something that helps if someone is silly enough to charge them.

the tacticals can claim two seperate objectives, meaning 6 troops choices can take 12 objecives, or at least have some redundency as at most there are usually only 5 objectives

the wolves can take 6 objectives, meaning our redundency is 1 unit, not 7 combat squads like the tactical squads.

but at the end of the day THEY ARE TWO DFFFERENT ARMIES omg orks are broken you can take 30 for the same price as a tactical squad! see how silly this gets?

Lord Solar Plexus
25-11-2009, 11:44
Why?


Why..what? You might not have realized it in your adolescent desire to vent some steam but "Why Haters of Spacewolves and their codex" is grammatically incorrect. It lacks a main verb. :angel:



Ive had a glance and it's not too bad.

Oho! A glance! A full glance or just a cursory one? I really, honestly think this is the point at which we can start to pour on the ridicule.

GrogDaTyrant
25-11-2009, 12:02
I hate the Space Wolves codex, because it seems excessively over-the-top. Wolf Claws? Wolf-Cavalry that somehow get Str 5 and a natural T 5? What, does the frakking dog swing the Wolf Claws or Thunderhammer!? The Psychic Powers, extra HQ selections... The whole codex seems to me to be written by some Space Wolf fanboy with little to no regard for such concepts as 'too-much'. Hell, the Space Wolf character named Canis Wolfborne, wielding Wolf Claws, riding a giant Wolf... Frakk I'm surprised he doesn't have a wolf-gun that shoots wolves as well!

Cheeslord
25-11-2009, 12:11
Why?

Ive had a glance and it's not too bad. The troops are broken as hell but really thats it? And why does everyone seem to think that every army uses the spacewolf codex?

I think what people hate is the "Codex Creep" whereby new codexes make the army significantly more powerful (per point spent) than the old codex. Therefore people will generally hate new codices, and expect them to all be overpowered (its more a case of having to prove that a new codex is NOT overpowered, since it will be assumed that it is).

The point is that this sells codices and models, as players woth lots of money are prepared to spend teh cash to get the new more powerful armies. Sort of like with computers only GW doesent have to invest bilions to make the next generation "must have" superior.

Mark.

player21
25-11-2009, 12:14
I hate the Space Wolves codex, because it seems excessively over-the-top. Wolf Claws? Wolf-Cavalry that somehow get Str 5 and a natural T 5? What, does the frakking dog swing the Wolf Claws or Thunderhammer!? The Psychic Powers, extra HQ selections... The whole codex seems to me to be written by some Space Wolf fanboy with little to no regard for such concepts as 'too-much'. Hell, the Space Wolf character named Canis Wolfborne, wielding Wolf Claws, riding a giant Wolf... Frakk I'm surprised he doesn't have a wolf-gun that shoots wolves as well!

Sounds like you had a run in with Mr Wolfborne was his wolf riders.

Deetwo
25-11-2009, 12:17
I think what people hate is the "Codex Creep"

Which is a complete and utter myth anyway.
Has no logic behind it, plenty of evidence against it and still people continue to believe it exists.. :rolleyes:

Thylacine
25-11-2009, 12:22
ok but take 10 of them, no other weapons, and take 10 tactical marines

the tactical marines get an extra LD can combat squad, use combat tactics and chapter tactics

the grey hunters cost 15 points less, have 1 less leadership, cant split up, have somthing that is useful in the first turn if an enemy is within 24" and the GH dont move, and something that helps if someone is silly enough to charge them.

the tacticals can claim two seperate objectives, meaning 6 troops choices can take 12 objecives, or at least have some redundency as at most there are usually only 5 objectives

the wolves can take 6 objectives, meaning our redundency is 1 unit, not 7 combat squads like the tactical squads.

but at the end of the day THEY ARE TWO DFFFERENT ARMIES omg orks are broken you can take 30 for the same price as a tactical squad! see how silly this gets?

Well said that man.

Now that I have played a few games under the new codex, I preferred the old one! I miss the Leman Russ Exterminator, Wolf Pelts (no test required) , two Plasma Pistols in my GH and BC packs. The choice of taking either two Power Fists of two Power Weapons or mixing to have one of each. Imagine a combat based army with only one Power Weapon in each pack!

A V-dread for a HQ that is not over expensive, Healing Potion and Balms for my Wolf Priest and Master Crafted Weapon for my WGBL's that last one was such a good bit of kit.

I have yet to see a counts as SW army, there was a bit of chatter on the local forum as the fan-boys had a rush of blood to the head but that was all. I doubt that any will turn up at next years tournaments as they are sure to earn the owner a low composition score.

Some people must think the new list is good as I know a few powergamers have leaked lists that rely on FW items/rules so it will be interesting to see if any try to powergame with a Wolf codex. Lucios Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pods, carrying quad auto-cannon Dreadnoughts! Damocles Rhinos for the HQ, should be interesting and one clown wants to take Grey Knights as an Elites choice, if the list is so broken why are the extras being added?

'If it ain't broke don't be fixing it!'

Xelloss
25-11-2009, 12:33
Grey Hunter : broken ? no. Severely underpriced ? Yes.

primarch16
25-11-2009, 13:08
I just can't wait for space wolf blood angels, death company wulfen anyone?

Wicksy
25-11-2009, 13:49
I rather like the SW codex. I havent got it, i wont get it and i wont be using it to "better represent my forces". I think what GW have done is look at some of the stuff in the vanilla dex and improve its usefulness. Anyone take techmarines using the vanilla list? No....they're crap. However in the SW list they're back to being how they were in the 4th ed. codex....useful again. I'm not sure what to expect for Blood Angels Codex. Knowing my luck they'll be nerfed to uselessness after all the out cries about the SW codex :D I dont care though,. so long as i get new models to paint ;)

Brimstone
25-11-2009, 13:52
I really fail to see the point of this thread beyond the extensive bitching that we've already been through more than once.

A thread really needs to have more than that so it's now closed.

The Warseer Inquisition