PDA

View Full Version : regarding the single troll



rtunian
25-11-2009, 02:40
wouldn't it almost always be better to use 2 trolls?

as i understand it, the point of using single troll is for maneuverability, but a single troll doesn't have enough unit strength to really take advantage of the maneuverability it can have...

adding a 2nd troll doubles the frontage to 40mm, which makes it a bit more difficult to squeeze between units, but isn't the ability to break ranks and provide flank bonus more valuable?

perhaps i misunderstand the use of the single troll?

also, ding 1k :p

threewolftats
25-11-2009, 02:48
wouldn't it almost always be better to use 2 trolls?

as i understand it, the point of using single troll is for maneuverability, but a single troll doesn't have enough unit strength to really take advantage of the maneuverability it can have...

adding a 2nd troll doubles the frontage to 40mm, which makes it a bit more difficult to squeeze between units, but isn't the ability to break ranks and provide flank bonus more valuable?

perhaps i misunderstand the use of the single troll?

also, ding 1k :p

you have trolls on 20mm bases? WOW!

w3rm
25-11-2009, 03:02
single troll gets free pivots and two trolls do not. Simple as that.

rtunian
25-11-2009, 03:29
oh yeah, zing on my typo :p

yes, it's a bit more maneuverable. i acknowledged this, but so what? a troll has 3 ws3 s5 attacks or 1 s5 autohit. without unit strength to flank/break ranks/destroy fleers, all you can gain from the troll is a tiny boost in damage output. what good is being able to easily put it anywhere (lol stupidity) if wherever you put it, it does very little?

Avian
25-11-2009, 05:32
You don't take a single Troll for its ability to kill Dragons in close combat. It's a support unit and does that very well. The greenskin army has heaps of other units who are much better at doing flank charges anyway and by getting US6 Trolls, they can suddenly cause Panic in nearly everything in the list.

rtunian
25-11-2009, 13:39
it does support very well? care to expound?
won't it average 1.5 hits, less than 1 wound?

i don't understand how this is worth a rare slot. maybe my interpretation of "support" is wrong? doesn't it essentially mean combo charge with a weaker unit? because it won't hold off a charging unit solo for a counter charge. anything with any scr will easily break it, heavy cav will mow it down, though fast cav it can probably repel. it brings almost nothing to combat with a counter charge of its own so i don't see that. the only thing i can see is that it can force an enemy to make a fear test before charging... if they are not itp or cause fear already.

heaps of other units much better at flanking?
you mean fast cav/chariots/hoppers which don't get a flank bonus or break ranks?
you mean heavy cav which isn't very good for its points and certainly isn't better than the other specials available?
you mean giants, another rare choice?

the point of this thread is because i don't understand the usefulness of the single troll. this is a tactics forum, so it stands to reason that tactics would be discussed. so, please be less vague, or save your time.

edit: i read your page on small monsters tactica, which my estimation of the troll's ability generally agrees with. although, i don't see how it is going to hold off ranked infantry... it literally can't win against ranked infantry. you will be having break tests at -2 at least (5 scr from fully ranked inf) assuming you deal 3 wounds and take 0, which even if you have an orc warboss general nearby gives you less than average chance of holding, and if you don't, forget about it. unless, you didn't mean fully ranked inf, but other cheap units such as 10 marauders w/o standard or something.

maybe i'm just expecting too much to qualify it as "useful" or "good". /edit

Tambarskjelve
25-11-2009, 14:37
Well, it can quite unexpectedly take out a warmachine if left alone for a few turns. And it can suicide charge and take out an enemy wizard with some luck.

But all in all it's not a brilliant choice, but it can be nice if you don't have anything else to use the rare choice for. A single troll is so cheap that you can afford to loose it, while two trolls are too expensive to be used as basically a confusing element that the opponent have to decide if he should do something about.

If he wants to use a cannon to take out your troll, then that's all good for you!

It can also do fairly well against a small missile unit. They get +1 CR, but are unlikely to wound. While he is likely to at least kill one a turn. When you have a general closeby he can hold his own.


So not a brilliant choice, but if you have a rare choice you're not using, then why not take a single troll! If nothing else, it's fun :P

Avian
25-11-2009, 15:10
it does support very well? care to expound?
won't it average 1.5 hits, less than 1 wound?
Sometimes that is all you need. Against a war machine crew, for example, you should win by one, outnumber with fear and break them. In a combat with another unit it's another point of CR (which is nearly always handy) and an extra pursuit move if the opponent breaks (very handy for anything that doesn't roll 3D6 for pursuit).


i don't understand how this is worth a rare slot. maybe my interpretation of "support" is wrong? doesn't it essentially mean combo charge with a weaker unit?
It may involve all manner of tasks. It can mean a combo charge with a stronger unit if that is what you mean.


because it won't hold off a charging unit solo for a counter charge.
Hopefully that is not the benchmark for a useful support unit in your book! ;)


heaps of other units much better at flanking?
you mean fast cav/chariots/hoppers which don't get a flank bonus or break ranks?
Eh? Fast cav and hoppers can get a flank bonus. Fast cav can break ranks. A chariot with a character can do both.


edit: i read your page on small monsters tactica, which my estimation of the troll's ability generally agrees with. although, i don't see how it is going to hold off ranked infantry...
If you read that section more closely, you will see that it mainly talks about units that are Stubborn or Unbreakable, though a Troll can do a decent job of holding up missile units.


it literally can't win against ranked infantry.
If you read the article again you won't find it suggested anywhere that a small monster can win against ranked infantry.


I must admit that I don't really see what you are on about. From what you write it seems you are surprised that a single, 40 point Troll can't beat enemy units costing five times as much and that this fact doesn't make them useful in your mind.
"A single Troll can't do Impressive task A!"
"No, it's a 40 pt unit."
"A single Troll can't do Impressive task B!"
"No, it's a 40 pt unit."

There is a reason you pay 205 pts for a Giant, you know! :p

theunwantedbeing
25-11-2009, 15:37
Redirect?
Either by sitting in the way and an unhelpful angle, or running into the flank of an enemy unit, losing very badly, almost guaranteed to run off and then the enemy has to take a test to see if it runs after you and exposes their flank, or sits still and lets the troll get away.

Suicide mission to kill a lone mage/character?
3 st5 attacks, 2 hits should kill a mage, 2 hits isnt that unlikely.
St5 vomit attack that auto-hits instead.

Go after really weak pathetic things it can conceivably beat?
Like war machines.

If you kill it, you get 40pts which is next to nothing.
It's toughness 4 with regen so killing it takes a bit of effort, effort you'de rather spend elsewhere. It wont cause panic, it causes fear so even charging the damned thing can be problematic. Its got a small 40mm frontage so your looking at 3-4 models being able to fight it, so it'll often survive untill the break test.

Extra persuit chance.
Extra point of combat res.

Malorian
25-11-2009, 15:52
Yup the single troll is amazing and taking two would only double the cost of a throw-away unit and make your own army take panic tests when it dies or is beaten in combat.

rtunian
25-11-2009, 16:07
why did i start thinking fast cav doesn't break ranks?
must be confusing with skirmisher...

there are too many rules in this game :p good thing 8th is coming. should be here right around the time i get really settled in. :rolleyes:

anyway thanks for indulging me :)

Fredmans
26-11-2009, 19:45
I am a great fan of the single troll. Two trolls might seem better, but one troll does not cause panic, and if you fail that Stupidity test, one troll is easier to leave behind. Here are two other tactical benefits...

Throwaway/redirect: When a nearby unit squabbles or fails a charge, you can still protect its flank by angling it correctly. A troll also has the benefit of causing a fear test if your opponent should wish to charge. (Not that some armies care about Fear, but anyway).

Support: Apart from the extra wound, the Troll adds a whole unit to the fight. If you win, that is one more pursuit roll (like Avian said). If you lose, you have one more break test. The general (and probably the BSB) should be close by, meaning that you have four break tests for one unit to stay. Against fear-causers this can really save your day since the Troll does not auto-flee. Since you decide in what order break tests are taken, start with the troll (with general and BSB), then you auto-flee with the other unit. The lone troll has saved my warboss' hide several times.