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megatrons2nd
25-11-2009, 16:41
I've seen and been involved in games where the DE player goes second. The Raiders then tend to be deployed empty or hidden as best they can. The problem remains that they are vulnerable to most weapons fire from the opposing force. My thought is that maybe Raiders should have the scout special rule attached to them and not the unit they are purchased for. Maybe with a limit of only if they are the second player do they get this rule. This would allow them to move prior to the first turn to receive the cover save for moving fast on the first turn. Maybe a limit to the outflank usage for said unit would be necessary.

jlmb_123
25-11-2009, 16:51
The problem with that solution is that you're adding a special rule, then modifying it further with two more special rules.

I agree, though, the Scout rule would be good addition to the Dark Eldar army in general, perhaps on Raiders, Ravagers, Reavers and Hellions, where it could represent their lightning raids quite well.

Thud
25-11-2009, 16:54
How about just putting everything in reserves? ;)

megatrons2nd
25-11-2009, 17:01
Tau battle suits have a special rule attached to their jet pack usage. The core book gives them relentless for using jet packs. The Tau Empire book limits it to rapid fire weapons and doesn't extend to heavy weapons(not that they can currently mount a heavy weapon). A conditional use of only if the player is going second would not be to much to add. The outflank rule might be a bit much but could be along the lines of the Necrons rule that only allows the warriors taken beyond the required two to be able to use the Monolith portal. Neither of which is hard to use and only adds one sentence each to the rule.

marv335
25-11-2009, 17:05
How about just using a webway portal?

megatrons2nd
25-11-2009, 17:05
How about just putting everything in reserves? ;)

I find the loss of the first turn of the game boring. You might as well just set the turn counter on turn 2 and move your troops on from there. Also the piecemeal way in which your troops would arrive can be tactically hampering.

megatrons2nd
25-11-2009, 17:07
How about just using a webway portal?

Same problems as above. Plus the WWP character must be on the board and has to survive the first turn, and it is pointless to open the WWP in your own DZ.

the1stpip
25-11-2009, 18:22
They need their rules updating. A Night Shield should force your opponent to shoot it using Night Fighting rules.

Urath
25-11-2009, 18:32
How about just putting everything in reserves? ;)

Then you kill the one model on the table with the Webway Gate; I've seen it happen to the only other guy I've ever seen at my store who plays Dark Eldar; suffice to say, we coupled up for a few battles and creamed most of the store before he had the idea of putting most of his army in reserve, only to have his Dracon killed off.

kokujin_atsuhara
25-11-2009, 18:48
megatrons2nd, I have been playing DE since GW publish 3rd edition (I purchased DE codex before the rulebook).
You can't add a new rule, ignoring all the tactical posibilities that this army have. Raiders are, at the same time, a weakness and a strength of the DE army.
You can't alter them :( wheather you like them, or not.
So, find a way to use their strengths, solving their weakness.

At least, until DE have a new codex (a very long time ahead).

Urath
25-11-2009, 18:49
At least, until DE have a new codex (a very long time ahead).

I think that's what this thread is partially about.

The Orange
25-11-2009, 18:55
Tau battle suits have a special rule attached to their jet pack usage. The core book gives them relentless for using jet packs. The Tau Empire book limits it to rapid fire weapons and doesn't extend to heavy weapons(not that they can currently mount a heavy weapon).
There codex was also made before the current rulebook.

jlmb_123
25-11-2009, 19:41
Tau battle suits have a special rule attached to their jet pack usage. The core book gives them relentless for using jet packs. The Tau Empire book limits it to rapid fire weapons and doesn't extend to heavy weapons(not that they can currently mount a heavy weapon).

But nothing's been modified. The battle suit gets to use the relentless rule: this isn't a modification of either the Jet Pack or Relentless rule, the unit has been given both. And, as you've said, the limit on Rapid Fire weapons is actually not a rule at all, just an obsolete bit of text.

There's nothing in your example that actually deviates from the 'core' rules.

Chem-Dog
25-11-2009, 20:10
How about just putting everything in reserves? ;)

QFT

If you want them to last a long time, Hold them in reserve.
If you want them to get you somewhere in double quick time, take your chances on the table from the start.

If you're talking new Codex stuff, I could see them getting Shadowfield generators, a turn 1 reserve roll or even Deep Strike, Scout really wouldn't help a model that big, would it?

Nehemiah
25-11-2009, 21:20
If you're talking new Codex stuff, I could see them getting Shadowfield generators, a turn 1 reserve roll or even Deep Strike, Scout really wouldn't help a model that big, would it?

Yes it would. Scout lets them move not move 6", so they could move pretty far to get behind cover or at least become obscured, or move fast enough to get their cover save.

marv335
25-11-2009, 21:28
Except that they wouldn't.
the vehicle cover save specifically states "previous movement phase" IIRC.
Turbo boosting jetbikes get it because their rules have different wording.
All the scout move would do is get them closer.

jlmb_123
25-11-2009, 21:57
Although not useful in game, that does sound like a rather fluffy rule: I imagine that the first turn of the game represents the Dark Eldar's enemy becoming aware of them, so the option of the opponent getting a shot in represents the first few opportunistic shots.


the vehicle cover save specifically states "previous movement phase" IIRC.

Then it's up to the controlling player to hide their vehicles as best as possible during deployment, surely? WIth a fast skimmer, deploying completely out of the way shouldn't be a problem, due to the distance that can be moved and the terrain that can be ignored.

megatrons2nd
26-11-2009, 00:49
But nothing's been modified. The battle suit gets to use the relentless rule: this isn't a modification of either the Jet Pack or Relentless rule, the unit has been given both. And, as you've said, the limit on Rapid Fire weapons is actually not a rule at all, just an obsolete bit of text.

There's nothing in your example that actually deviates from the 'core' rules.

Codex trumps core book. So if they allow heavy weapons on a Battle Suit and leave that line in then they could not fire a heavy weapon. Also marker drones in said unit may not move and shoot the Networked Marker Light as they have the same movement as the parent unit. So it does affect the current rule, unless I missed an FAQ entry.

Nehemiah
26-11-2009, 01:24
Except that they wouldn't.
the vehicle cover save specifically states "previous movement phase" IIRC.
Turbo boosting jetbikes get it because their rules have different wording.
All the scout move would do is get them closer.

Or behind cover as the first part of my comment stated or as jlmb_123 also points out.


Codex trumps core book. So if they allow heavy weapons on a Battle Suit and leave that line in then they could not fire a heavy weapon. Also marker drones in said unit may not move and shoot the Networked Marker Light as they have the same movement as the parent unit. So it does affect the current rule, unless I missed an FAQ entry.

In the codex it states drones have the same unit type as the unit they are attached to. In the case of battle suits they are Jump Pack (Jump Jet). It is the Battle suit itself wich does not allow one to fire heavy weapons, so jump-jet marker drones are still relentless by the new rules.

megatrons2nd
27-11-2009, 15:49
From kanluwen on Dakka: He probably said Craftworld Eldar just to make sure that people realize there's a chance for the Dark Eldar codex to find itself a slot in 2010.



From Brimstone on Dakka: Give that man a cigar

Thread title An Eldar rumour with admittedly very little substance...

Luisjoey
27-11-2009, 16:06
outflank would make the dark eldars great!

Dark eldars new codex!!!

ShaiAhlude
27-11-2009, 16:35
The biggest tactical change has been the LOS for 5th edition. Before you could plunk down a tree stand, deploy a Raider behind it, and while it was'nt foolproof, it worked most of the time. Only very big terrain can hide a Raider during deployment, so us DE players have had to adjust.

Personally, I have 2 WWPs. And deploying them in your own zone isn't as bad as you think, although it's not great either.

Bottom Line: Dark Eldar needs a new codex! I feel like suing GW for lack of support, and I'm not going to believe any rumors on a new codex until I see it with my own eyes. 11+ YEARS would be a joke if it was'nt so pathetic:mad::mad::mad:

bigcheese76
28-11-2009, 18:46
I cant help you much on the question but its nice to see someone with a Dark Eldar army for once. In 3 years or Warhammer iv seen about two Dark Eldar armies at my local store.

Shifte
29-11-2009, 01:38
I'd like a way to have Dark Eldar vehicles have a little more protection. Played on a forest board once, and there was physically no way to get my raiders out of LoS without reserving them (which is not handy, at all. I need to attack the board in most games, and my 'ground support' can't survive enemy onslaughts when my raiders struggle to come on in time).

I ended up hiding every raider, and had a 4+ cover (or 3+) on all of them. With rolls that were favouring my opponent, but not in an unreasonable way, I lost all 4 raiders on the first turn. Before I could move.

It just felt very.. unfun? I don't know if that's the right word, or if people take that as a valid concern. But eh, it's the truth of it. Dark Eldar Raiders should be flimsy compared to most vehicles; but I also want my Archon to be able to fart without risking a glancing hit.

ShaiAhlude
29-11-2009, 04:55
It's funny, but when I started playing DE back in 3rd, the store I was at, had little terrain. I immediately "fixed" that oversight. :cool:

Once the LOS rules sorted themselves out, my store did'nt have big pieces of terrain. I am in the process of "fixing" that oversight.....

The shyshield pad on a hill, broken cliffs, even "half-piece" 3 story buildings (no holes or windows, but broken in half) are a huge help in this regard.

the1stpip
29-11-2009, 09:35
I agree, that Dark Eldar have been heavily nerfed since 5th ed. TLOS screws us over royally (and don't get me started on Wyches consolidating into combat).

But, we adapt. My army is still fairly successful (managed to table a Marine player in 4 turns and lost a single Raider the other day) but I can't wait for a new codex. It will make choosing an army more tactically challenging.

Bloodknight
30-11-2009, 15:08
I still win most of the time with my DE, so I can't really complain. I don't even feel nerfed, I just don't take a lot of Wyches anymore although I used to play a Wych Cult in 4th. My biggest wish would be 11 front on the Raider. It doesn't have to be a flying Rhino with all round small arms protection, just the front angle would be nice. Or make it cheaper to bring it in line with other transports. 40 points or so. And some actually usable vehicle upgrades would be nice. Scythes my ***.

the1stpip
30-11-2009, 17:54
No, I think the Raider is correctly priced. It is basically a flying Lascannon.

But I agree, some decent upgrades would be nice, but then the current ones were home brew rules which GW nicked because they forgot to do any.

Bloodknight
30-11-2009, 18:57
As were the "Arcane Items". The phrasing is pretty obvious fanwork. :)

DeadlySquirrel
30-11-2009, 19:46
Hmmm... on the original post: It would be nice, but i doubt it. This is kinda general wishlisting here but we will have to see what they do in the new 'dex

jsullivanlaw
03-12-2009, 18:00
I've decided webway portal sucks. Just face an army with a couple drop podding dreads and then you will know why. The best way to play DE in 5th is with as many skimmers as possible and if you go second, put everything in reserves. The only time coming out of reserves sucks is if the deployment is pitched battle. Going second on pitched battle is a pretty tough game for me. But going second in DOW is great for any army as everything comes on and avoids a bunch of shooting. Going second in spearhead is also great because your reserves get to use the entire long table edge and first turn assaults are pretty easy to get. Every unit needs its own raider, sniper squads suck by the way.