PDA

View Full Version : WoC - Hero on Chariot and Marks



GWItheUltimate
25-11-2009, 15:46
If you put an Hero with the Mark of Tzeentch on a chariot, does the chariot is automatically "of Tzeentch" or you have to pay 20 pts more to put the mark of Tzeentch on the chario too ?

theunwantedbeing
25-11-2009, 15:48
You have to pay, seeing as marks do not transfer to mounts.

Milgram
25-11-2009, 16:36
allthough some effects transfer to the mount, such as -1 bs for shooting at nurgle, frenzy and slaanesh-itp (as long as the bearer of the mark is alive).

GWItheUltimate
25-11-2009, 17:00
allthough some effects transfer to the mount, such as -1 bs for shooting at nurgle, frenzy and slaanesh-itp (as long as the bearer of the mark is alive).

So if I put the Mark of Nurgle on a Hero with a Chariot... The enemy would have -1 to Hit for his ranged attack against the Chariot/Hero even though the Chariot dosen't have the Mark of Nurgle ?

Same thing with the Dragon ? A mounted Hero of Nurgle on a Dragon, you would have -1 to hit with Ranged Attack ?

Are you sure ? This seams strange...

stiggie
25-11-2009, 18:13
yes thats how it is,,

whenever a mount or its rider have frenzy it is passed onto the other,, so if a character is frenied so is the mount and vice versa,,

the same applies with nurgle and the -1 to hit,,

the tzeentch doesnt work though because ward saves arent conferred onto monstorous mounts

GWItheUltimate
25-11-2009, 18:28
yes thats how it is,,

whenever a mount or its rider have frenzy it is passed onto the other,, so if a character is frenied so is the mount and vice versa,,

the same applies with nurgle and the -1 to hit,,

the tzeentch doesnt work though because ward saves arent conferred onto monstorous mounts

Dude... You just give me 90pts more to spend on my 3xKhorne Hero on Chariot army... Cause I don't need the Mark of Khorne on the chariot since it's going to be frenzy because the Hero is Frenzy ?

What about the crewman ? Is he Frenzy too ?!?

Harwammer
25-11-2009, 20:56
Frenzy is passed from mount to rider and vice versa.

If you mark the chariot its not entirely free frenzy on the rider as the chariot may die before the rider loses combat.

Milgram
26-11-2009, 06:35
The enemy would have -1 to Hit for his ranged attack?

wrong - according to the WoC faq/errata, the MoN does not give -1 to hit but rather -1 BS and -1 WS when attacking the MoN bearer. This is quite a difference because it does most certainly not influence an DE assassin while it has an impact on khemri archers.

also in close combat it only reduces WS when attacked, not when the MoN model attacks back.

Sepulcher
26-11-2009, 08:09
wrong - according to the WoC faq/errata, the MoN does not give -1 to hit but rather -1 BS and -1 WS when attacking the MoN bearer. This is quite a difference because it does most certainly not influence an DE assassin while it has an impact on khemri archers.

also in close combat it only reduces WS when attacked, not when the MoN model attacks back.

The Mark of Nurgle (with errata)

Any enemy unit targeting a model with the mark of nurgle is at -1 Ballistic Skill for shooting attacks and -1 Weapon Skill when in base contact with the bearer.

It says nothing about when attacking the bearer in hand to hand, it just says when in base contact. You are applying the wording from the shooting portion of the rule to the CC portion of the rule. Whether or not they attack the bearer, they are still at -1 WS, even when the bearer strikes back.

nosferatu1001
26-11-2009, 08:56
In addition it does not work when you shooting a dragon with MoN- as you randomise after rolling to hit the model, and the model does not have MoN, only a portion of it.

Milgram
26-11-2009, 10:27
It says nothing about when attacking the bearer in hand to hand, it just says when in base contact.

just plain wrong.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350036_WarriorsofChaosFAQFeb2009.pdf

nosferatu, the bs thing is the same whether you have a dragon or a chariot. now you also get +1 to hit for shooting at a large target if you roll afterwards a 5+ to hit the character with MoN, right? so you also get the -1 for shooting at a character or a chariot with MoN, even if you hit the other part afterwards.

nosferatu1001
26-11-2009, 10:39
Milgram - when you shoot at the model (dragon + MoN character) the -1BS cannot apply, as you only determine which parts of the model you hit after you have rolled to hit - in other words you only determine if the -1BS applies after the point at which you use ballistic skill. Same for chariots.

Only if both the rider plus monstrous mount / chariot have MoN can it ever apply against shooting

You randomise to determine where the Hits go, not where you initially roll to hit, and as such the -1BS cannot apply

inq.serge
26-11-2009, 15:27
Dude... You just give me 90pts more to spend on my 3xKhorne Hero on Chariot army... Cause I don't need the Mark of Khorne on the chariot since it's going to be frenzy because the Hero is Frenzy ?

What about the crewman ? Is he Frenzy too ?!?

Your chariot must have the same mark as the rider.

Ophidian
26-11-2009, 15:33
Unless it is unmarked.

Ophidian
26-11-2009, 15:37
Milgram - when you shoot at the model (dragon + MoN character) the -1BS cannot apply, as you only determine which parts of the model you hit after you have rolled to hit - in other words you only determine if the -1BS applies after the point at which you use ballistic skill. Same for chariots.

Only if both the rider plus monstrous mount / chariot have MoN can it ever apply against shooting

You randomise to determine where the Hits go, not where you initially roll to hit, and as such the -1BS cannot apply

But by this argument*, wouldn't you not apply the +1 for a large target, as not all parts of the model are a large target?


*ludicrous, I know, but it uses the same logic

stiggie
26-11-2009, 16:00
for MoN id say you should get the -1 Bs for shooting,, because you are shooting at the model with MoN,, just like the large target rule,,

however in CC the -1 WS would only work if you directly attack the lord and not the dragon

nosferatu1001
26-11-2009, 16:26
It is however how it works....

Read the rules for MoN: Are you shooting at a model with MoN? No? You are shooting at a model where part of it has MoN, and you dont determine wher eyou hit until after rolling to hit.

You get teh +1 to hit for "large target" as the rules for it specifically state you do.

GWItheUltimate
26-11-2009, 17:03
Your chariot must have the same mark as the rider.

Wrong...

It must not have a different Mark from the Rider... quite different.

GWItheUltimate
26-11-2009, 19:49
Ok let's do a little Résumé !

-Mark of Khorne

If either the Rider or the Chariot has the Mark of Khorne, the whole model is Frenzy. (Though, if the Rider had the Mark but not the Chariot, if the rider is slain, then the chariot that remains won't be frenzy anymore and vice versa).

This works for any mount, but the chariot is the only mount that can have a Mark.

-Mark of Tzeentch

Mark of Tzeentch doesn't pass from the Rider to the Chariot (or any mount).

-Mark of Slanesh

Works as Mark of Khorne.

-Mark of Nurgle

Not clear...

nosferatu1001
27-11-2009, 00:52
MoN: clear

If you are on a chariot or monstrous mount the entire model needs to have MoN to benefit from it. As this is impossible on a dragon you gain no benefit at range froma MoN lord, howev er you do gain the benefit if both the chariot AND the character are marked - as you are then targetting a model with the MoN.

kyuzo
27-11-2009, 02:11
It is however how it works....

Read the rules for MoN: Are you shooting at a model with MoN? No? You are shooting at a model where part of it has MoN, and you dont determine wher eyou hit until after rolling to hit.

You get teh +1 to hit for "large target" as the rules for it specifically state you do.

Shooting at a monstrous mount "As a single model, the monster and its rider are considered to be a single target"

Since the rider has the mark you will be shooting at -1, no rule anywhere indicates otherwise.

stiggie
27-11-2009, 16:03
i agree with the last guy,, thats what i tried to explain but not well enough haha

Whaagnomore
27-11-2009, 17:07
MoN: clear

If you are on a chariot or monstrous mount the entire model needs to have MoN to benefit from it.

Where exactly does it state that? The wording of the rules is as follows handed from the errata: When rolling to hit against a model with the
Mark of Nurgle, the attacker suffers -1 to its Ballistic Skill and Weapon Skill, to a
minimum of 1

As the sequence for shooting is to first choose target, then roll to hit THEN RANDOMIZE, it seems that getting -1 to hit against a chariot where only the rider has the mark of nurgle is completely legit.

theunwantedbeing
27-11-2009, 17:20
When rolling to hit against a "model".
The "model" is the rider & dragon.
The rider has the mark of nurgle, the dragon does not.
However as both are considered the same "model" then the "model" has the mark of nurgle.

That said, this opens up all sorts of silly abuses of the word "model".
eg. Dark elf potion of strength
The "model" gets +3 strength, so both the rider and his mount would get it.

Hence why people go with "model" just meaning the bit of the model with that particular rule. So the Rider with the mark of nurgle on a dragon is not -1bs when being shot at as the dragon doesnt have the mark of nurgle.
Same for chariots and other monstrous mounts.

EvC
27-11-2009, 18:57
Well kyuzo's post does quote very nicely that you should consider it to be a single model for shooting, so why not? Mark of Nurgle is pretty useless for a Chaos model without actually letting it make use of the -1 to hit. It's a bit different to other things like Potion of Strength as there's no rule saying to treat it as one model for the use of magic items.