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Malorian
25-11-2009, 23:10
7 Habits of Effective Gamers

Last weekend I took the course Ď7 habits of highly effective peopleí (great course and I think everyone one should take it at some point in their life) and the whole time I couldnít help relate it to gaming.

For those that have taken the course this will be easier to follow, but for those that havenít please just read along and Iíll try to explain as best I can.


Link to the model: http://unixgu.ru/7habits-pyramid.png


The purpose of this is to describe how you get someone from being dependant to being independent and then finally to interdependent.


The Dependence Stage:

Relating this to gaming the dependant stage would be when we first learned the game. We needed someone to tell us everything, know the rules and stats for us, and basically hold our hands while we play the game. Hell youíre probably using someone elseís models!

Habit 1: Be proactive

The first step then to being a better gamer is to be proactive. Go out and read the rules, buy some dice/ruler/templates, buy your own army, and make up a list.

This first step is critical as you are basically dedicating yourself to the hobby.

Habit 2: Begin with the end in mind

In this step gamers start thinking about what they are actually suppose to be doing with their army. They need to go out and defeat their opponent or capture that objective.

Although this might sound like simple logic, and in a way it is, I think we all know or have heard about that kid that shows up with his army but then seems to doing things randomly as though they didnít have a tactical bone in their body.

Habit 3: Put first thing first

Here the gamer learns to prioritize. He knows he should use the cannon on the chariot, the stone thrower on the block, and shoot down those fast cav before they are a problem.

In truth you could call this the tactics page. The gamer learns what works and now has their own complete plans as to how to win the game.


The Independence Stage:

This is where you will find the majority of gamers, even veteran gamers. They now have all the mental tools they need to play the game and play it well. For this reason many gamers donít go beyond this point, they are happy just playing and perfecting their army and strategies until they are the best oiled machine they can be.

This isnít the final step however, and a gamer that stops here will soon either get bored of playing or my even run out of players willing to play against him.

Habit 4: Think win/win

You can go and crush some one over and over but eventually the loser isnít going to want to play any more. Taking up a win/win attitude will help keeping everyone happy and everyone having fun.

This could include making your list weaker, not using certain tactics or game loopholes, or even setting up minor victories for your opponent such as letting him kill something with his favorite unit rather than avoiding it completely.

Habit 5: Seek first to understand and then to be understood

Itís all too easy for us to assume what other players want from a game, and in trying to implement habit 4 you might even make things worse if you donít understand where your opponent is coming from.

Maybe he likes playing a more combat focused game, maybe he likes to see the generals duke it out, maybe he likes to try new things, or maybe he just wants an ultra-competitive game.

By talking to your opponent before the game you can then use that knowledge as to how to play the game and make sure it ends as a win/win.

Habit 6: Synergize

Once you are in a win/win mindset, and you and your opponent both know what you want from the game, the next step is to use that information to bring about the best games possible.

This would mean things like using armies that are classic match ups for each other, finding new and interesting ways to incorporate your armies and skill sets towards game objectives you havenít tried before, or even just setting up the most exciting game you can.


The Interdependence Stage:

Finally, once youíve completed all the steps and are in control of all the habits you will be at interdependence. Your games will be under your control and yet they are also the culmination of the goals and wishes of you and your gaming group.

Habit 7: Sharpen the saw

In the end gaming isnít everything and in a funny way the best way to improve your game is to back away some times. Donít go all out until you are burned out and tired of your models, donít read army books and fluff until you canít get them out of your head, take some time with your family, recharge, and come back ready for another great and exciting game.


The reason why I decided to post this is because I really feel too many of us are stuck at the Independence stage. We are all simply concerned about how to make out list better, what to do to crush out opponents or beat the latest army book, and basically just centered on purely competitive tournament play.

I myself was clearly in this spot just a year ago and have slowly been moving further along in my gamer development. I no longer care about my win/lose record, I play more of my Ďweakerí armies, and I even have gone so far to sit down with some of my fellow gamers to plan games a month in advance to make sure it turns out to be the best experience possible.

So now take a second and decide where you fall in this? What stage are you in? What habit are you on or am having trouble with? Are you even at the stage that you want to be a better gamer?

As I said a year ago I considered myself an ultra-competitive gamer and I mocked people who wouldnít try to win and would rather go for Ďa fun gameí. The trigger that changed things for me is 1. no longer being able to find people who wanted to play against me, and 2. reading some of the (once similar) extreme views of other on Warseer.


And there you have it. Thatís all I wanted to say and I hope it will be usefully as a tool of self reflection to my fellow gamers.

The Red Scourge
25-11-2009, 23:39
Congrats. You seem to have realized that this isn't a game of skill, but an excuse for shoving around cool looking models :)

warhawk95
26-11-2009, 04:16
Very good article and it was intresting to read. Personally I think im in between independence and win/win. I still go out in everygame and aim to win, this is a game and I want the best from my oppenent and the best from myself and IMO the only way you can truely do your best is if you try to win. But on the other hand I do still aim to have fun and that is also very importan, and if I loose while having fun, so be it. I learn my mistakes and try and get better. Luckily Im part of a very competitive gaming group and we all aim to have a good time, but also to win. And I think what your gaming group is like can really determine what stage your at or how long it takes you to get to that stage. If you have a group that hates ultra competitive people then you will quickly be forced to the win/win stage or not play. If you are in an ultra comepetitive group though then you will be in the independence stage for while, or atleast as long as your enjoying it.

WhiteKnight
26-11-2009, 06:55
Wow, this post actually got me thinking about my hobbying and gaming. I also think I'm in the independence stage. For me, I like winning, everyone does, but in the end I'd rather have an awesome looking army that pulls draws then a gray-camoed army that pulls massacres. I find no real achievement in massacres but I find more achievement in pulling draws or minor losses against the best people in the store or area. For example:

I played my Beastmen against a REALLY good Empire player. By the way, EVERYONE loves playing him because he always has a great attitude and makes some of the best jokes. So anyways, we duked it out for about 2 hours and then we tallied up the victory points, he beat me by 350 points, meaning a minor loss. Until I remembered that I captured 2 banners and had 3 table quarters and 1 contested. So it ended up being a draw.

In the end, I just find it better to have close games then 1 way battles.

Condottiere
26-11-2009, 07:48
You've figured out the secret of war - it's a continuation of policy, not an end to itself.

Zilverug
26-11-2009, 09:01
Some environments are far more competative than others.

I remember joining an existing AD&D group 10 years ago with my "let's roll all stats from STR to CHA and see what character I can make out of that" ranger a group where min-maxed INT 22 half-dragon mages were the norm. It wasn't a success, both ways.

But there is always someone needed to start the maturitization process... it's worthwhile..

yorch
26-11-2009, 12:19
Good post! I like it!

Well, I supose this 7 rules can be extrapolated to all aspects in life... love, friendship, work, gaming... but they are far easier to achieve in gaming :D I think the line is quite blurry, though, and you can go backwards also :rolleyes:


I've been usually between 3th and 7th states for years, going from one to the other directly. I sharpened my lists and then quit playing... and come back, and quit playing all over the years. I just concentrated too much in the game so I fed up easily.


It's funny because for me, the army that made me a better player (not speaking of competitiviness now) is 7th ed DoC. I used to play with the cheesiest daemon lists you could use with 6th hordes of chaos book. In Spain you usually couldn't field a daemonic legion army (Storm of Chaos list), so I had to use the cheesiest lists I could to achieve a 50/50 win ratio with my pure daemon army. I didn't enjoy the game that much... every game was like a test for me. I got better games with my skaven, but even though I love those little evil ratmen, daemons are soooo cool (I love 6th ed DoC minis).


Then 7th ed book came, and I just crushed everyone in front of me for months (No one in my gaming group had daemons before, and they are an expensive army to collect, so I was the only DoC player by then). And winning started to be boring. I will always remember how sad was a tourney game VS 6th ed dark elves when I crushed his 2k army in 45minutes... I didn't lose any unit. I did not have any fun in that game, neither my opponent.


I started to realize that winning was not all that good. I mean, it's good to win, but when you win so many games in a row the good feeling starts to fade away. There's no challenge, and what's more, people starts playing against you in an awkward mood, because they know it will be painful.


Then I started to soften my lists a lot, not mixing the 4 gods, only 2 or even going mono-god. And I started to lose some games (I've lost only when going mono god, but it's something at least), but the game was more challenging. People stopped thinking that my daemons were a pain in the a$$ to play with, and both, them and me, started to get more enjojable games.


Now I've been out of the game for 4 months, as I haven't been in my home since then (not because I got tired of the game), but my last games were clearly in step 6. I've even learned people how to improve their style of play (I'm not Napoleon, but after 13 years of competitive play I know some tricks :) ) and even lost games when doing it (and not on purpose :eyebrows: ). Now when playing I almost look for draws, and do some filmic attacks that make the combat interesting (usually with a dead skaven warlord in the process, when playing skaven :D ). The game just got better for me, and as I know I am not using use the most competitive of all the builds, I don't feel "forced" to win, but just to perform well enough.


I don't do it as often in WHF as it's more difficult to do it, but in 40k I usually play "fluffy battles" both in apocalypse and normal play and they are really interesting. You know you are not fielding the optimum army, but your enemy neither, and you use some cool looking armies. For example an entire Emperor's Children army (no daemon princes) with every one armed with sonic weapons that cost me a lot to buy but it's impressive while fielded... not for my (lack of) skill in painting, but because they all wear big weapons and the Emperor's Children shoulder pad :rolleyes:


I think when the 7th ed Skavens I'll paly with some crazy stuff also (when I got the time, that is).


To sum up... It's hard, but learn how to loose while being in a good mood and have fun is the way to play this game. In the end, it's the purpose itself, that both players have fun.

Onisuzume
26-11-2009, 12:48
You've figured out the secret of war - it's a continuation of politics, not an end to itself.
Fixed it for ya.

Dead Man Walking
26-11-2009, 14:12
The stages of a Dwarf player

1. Beardling : Your eyes light up at the concept of a dwarf army, you can't wait to buy one up and get it killing things!

2. Denial: After several games you still think Dwarves are the bees knees. You havent won a lot of games, mostly losses and draws, but you blame your inexperience not your army.

3. Frustration: Your yanking your beard out or starting to think that the army is static and boring because you cant move like other faster shinier armies.

4. Acceptance: You accept that perhaps Dwarves were not the bees knees, your going to try another army.

5. Grey Beard: You come back and play the dwarves again but your more experienced and you don't really care if you win or loose as long as you can blacken some eyes and knock some teeth loose. Your a Dwarf damn it and your going to guzzle ale that would kill a manling after a single sip, tell bawdy stories and make anyone regret ever stepping up to you! GAAAAAR!!!

Malorian
26-11-2009, 15:24
I was thinking about this while I was watchin a 40k game yesterday.

On one side you had a brand new eldar player where this was his FIRST ever game with them (plus he hadn't played anything else since 4th) and then on the other side you had a guy that was going to have a 'friendly' game with him by taking his space wolves and going mech with a bunch of assault cannons and heavy bolters... and then he didn't put any terrain on the board to give the eldar at least some cover...

Ya... guess where he falls :rolleyes: Certainly isn't thinking win/win...

I would be surprised if that new eldar player even comes back to play with them again as he now thinks his army sucks.

Dead Man Walking
26-11-2009, 15:47
I was thinking about this while I was watchin a 40k game yesterday.

On one side you had a brand new eldar player where this was his FIRST ever game with them (plus he hadn't played anything else since 4th) and then on the other side you had a guy that was going to have a 'friendly' game with him by taking his space wolves and going mech with a bunch of assault cannons and heavy bolters... and then he didn't put any terrain on the board to give the eldar at least some cover...

Ya... guess where he falls :rolleyes: Certainly isn't thinking win/win...

I would be surprised if that new eldar player even comes back to play with them again as he now thinks his army sucks.

There are guys like this in my game club too, I have actually seen a waac player not only celebrate tabling the new guy but then tell the new guy every single step that he messed up in a jerky way. Guy never came back, I then asked the club that if they couldn't tone down the game for a noob then they should send the guy to me first.

PhalanxLord
26-11-2009, 15:59
I would be at number 4 and i have been there for pretty much as long as I can remember. One thing I don't like, though, is that you make it seem like people who don't want to win are superior. For me, I like for both people to have an enjoyable game but I relish a challenge and there are few things better for me than winning a difficult game. I don't hold back in the game- to hold back is to imply that the opponent isn't a challenge. I'll change my list around and weaken or strengthen it at times just to shake things up a bit and see how enjoyable some other units and stuff are, but once that game starts I go all out and I would expect my opponent to do the same. Now then there is something awesome about seeing a HQ choice battling another HQ choice or an MC and I like setting up those kinds of fights, but I won't do that if it would lose me the game. Winning isn't everything, but holding back is an insult to the opponent's skill as a player.

Its certainly important that everyone has fun, but if I go out of my way to play towards my opponent's army's advantages then not only would I be holding back but I likely wouldn't have much fun either. If you leave your favorite shooting unit open to be charged by one of my fexes or my wolf guard, I'm going to crush it even if not doing so would make for a more interesting game as if I didn't it would seem condescending as I would once again be holding back rather than respecting your skills as a the commander of an army of toy soldiers. Say what you will, but I don't think the ultimate finishing point is the same for everyone and not everything will fit into that list very well.

GuyLeCheval
26-11-2009, 16:31
I was thinking about this while I was watchin a 40k game yesterday.

On one side you had a brand new eldar player where this was his FIRST ever game with them (plus he hadn't played anything else since 4th) and then on the other side you had a guy that was going to have a 'friendly' game with him by taking his space wolves and going mech with a bunch of assault cannons and heavy bolters... and then he didn't put any terrain on the board to give the eldar at least some cover...

Ya... guess where he falls :rolleyes: Certainly isn't thinking win/win...

I would be surprised if that new eldar player even comes back to play with them again as he now thinks his army sucks.

These things are just so common nowadays. My own gaming group still think you are a idiot to not send in the best you have in your army books...

And when I say I don't want to go double HA in 2000 pts, they just laught at me and think I'm a noob...

*sigh*

TheGreatWhiteRat
26-11-2009, 16:41
Some environments are far more competative than others.

I remember joining an existing AD&D group 10 years ago with my "let's roll all stats from STR to CHA and see what character I can make out of that" ranger a group where min-maxed INT 22 half-dragon mages were the norm. It wasn't a success, both ways.

But there is always someone needed to start the maturitization process... it's worthwhile..

Are the 7 steps about maturity? Or a linear progression from competitive gaming to fun gaming. I don't think it is fair to say one point of view is less mature than another.

Reaching that 7th habit means being able to create and enjoyable game or all people involved. Both competitive and fun gamers have problems with this from time to time.

Malorian
26-11-2009, 17:05
Very true and that's why habit 5 is so important. Once you want to be in a win/win situation the next step is to find out what that even means for your opponent.

CommissarGuard
26-11-2009, 17:12
I whould say i am at 3 as i dont play many games to get better but i will one day

Dr.Clock
26-11-2009, 17:27
I kind of like this...

To be frank, I really only play against one good friend. We have learned the hobby together and have both become pretty good generals.

I do think alot about formations that will win games and write tonnes of lists. These lists, however, always have a strong theme in mind and we both know in advance what our opponent will bring.

The win/win stage doesn't have to be about 'deliberately' hamstringing your own playing. It can simply be about changing your list once it becomes tiresome. I've basically slaughtered my opponent's chaos lists in the last few games we've played.

I'm busily polishing off my salamanders so that I get a fresh list to play around with and he doesn't have to face down my wave serpents anymore. I COULD continue playing my eldar but, by this point, I know my list inside out and basically run my eldar on auto-pilot. I probably won't field them again until I have a couple new units to throw down (I'm almost at the point where I can field my long-planned 'arachnid' army focused on warp spiders and scorpions).

But before I get there, I have my Sallies. All the work I put into them over the years is going to pay off when my new 3000 point list hits the field. I haven't used them in a couple years, having been focused on building up my eldar and DIY marines instead.

We also plan out 'special' units we want to use well in advance. For instance, I've decided against Vulkan... I don't like the idea of some random guy who falls outside the command structure leading my army. We tend toward low fantasy instead of high fantasty... Vulkan is too 'individual' to my mind.

Hence, I want to use the BoLS character from the Badab book... a Master of the Forge who allows Vulkan's chapter tactics and isn't a crazy assault character to boot... he loses master of the armoury but he fits way better with my list that Vulkan does. Now I can keep the converted Captain I've had for years as the leader of the list and have a reason to field the techmarine in servo-harness that has been languishing in disrepair (being a pretty useless unit otherwise... and stuck in highly contested FOC area). My opponent agrees on all these points.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Eldoriath
26-11-2009, 17:27
I'm in a kind of step four with the foot hanging over step 5 I guess, with some minor fluxuations of the other steps at times. After I won a tournament I stopped being focused on making "Da greetest lizt evah!!!one!!!11!!" and started just playing for the fun of it. An example that proved this very clearly for me was when I got a pick-up game against some random guy who played a DH force. At first I thought about using one of my standard lists until I heard he had something like 16 models in the whole army, no vehicles and practically no other AT besides CC. So, instead of running a banewolf and some other stuff I tried to go for a CC oriented guard list utilizing Straken and lots of infantry, backed-up by two chimeras. It was a fun game and he ended up with a win =)

And now I'm planning an apocalypse game with some friends, starting with laying out the general rules for the game. Last time it became too heated and I thought that this time I want none of it, so we will declare rules that might seem ambigius and just make a general check that both the armies that are going to meet one another actually has a chance of winning.

Deetwo
26-11-2009, 17:51
I started playing with my little brother some decade and an odd ago..
And from the get go I have always been the one teaching the "dependent" gamer.

I did go through the first three habits, but I don't think I've ever been in a dependent stage in the time I've spent on this hobby.

But even so, this is rather interesting :)

Gabacho Mk.II
26-11-2009, 17:52
Great thread Malorian!

Let's see how many posters respond in earnest and share their thoughts. :)

Sons of Alaitoc v.2
26-11-2009, 18:03
I wish I had read this ages ago. I had just got my younger brother to collect an army, and began to teach him, but I didn't go easy on him.

In the end he got bored, and gave up.

Anyway awesome, and I hope by the end of the year I will be on the final stage

Lord Nestron
26-11-2009, 18:11
I am at step 4 and still working on toaning down my lists to make games more exieting while helping friends build there lists stronger

yorch
26-11-2009, 18:15
By the way, the best thing to do is meeting more people, not just get centered in a gaming group. I, for example, have 1 gaming group but when I go to a tourney I try to meet everyone that seems to be a good pal. Then we probably play some games and if all goes well become common rivals. You don't have to be his friend or be from the same gaming group, just for 3 - 4 games a year with this person is enough. And having this variety is the easier way to get the best from the game, because sometimes you want to play a fluffy game, massive games, weird lists, competitive play... and this way you can have it all, even if your opponents are single minded in gameplay terms(which, fortunately, are not all) :)


About the WAAC players... well, we usually dismiss them in our tourneys (we have a tourney every 3 months or so, which has no economic prize for the winner), or hell, I play daemons... tailored daemons are horrible :evilgrin:

t-tauri
26-11-2009, 18:18
I posted this in the fantasy section but it certainly applies to 40k as well.




17) Please do not post duplicate threads. Posting the same thread in more than one forum (including The Chaos Wastes) is not allowed. Please choose the most appropriate forum for your thread and post it there. However, it is acceptable, to include a link to a thread in your signature.
Do not open the same thread in two locations. Threads merged and moved to other GW.

Pokpoko
26-11-2009, 19:14
7 habits of effective people have nothing on 7 habits of highly effective pirates, which are far more relevant to real life situations.

6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

12. A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head

1. Pillage, then burn.

And so on. As I said, very practical;)

Chaos and Evil
26-11-2009, 19:24
Congrats. You seem to have realized that this isn't a game of skill, but an excuse for shoving around cool looking models :)

QFT, that exactly describes all three GW Core Games. :)

outbreak
27-11-2009, 02:56
I'd like to play more fun and less competetive but with my tomb kings i get stuck in a rut of where if i change anything up the list feels too underpowered and i don't have fun losing while thinking if only i had this or this here. That being said my tomb kings list isn't over powered anyway it's just some of the less tactical players (or people who don't play tk often as i'm the only guy at my club with them and i'm new myself) get their ass kicked against it.
That being said when i play my dwarfs my list isn't min maxed and is a more fun list (my skaven list will be too, no bell, no furnace, no abomination in my 2k list but i still think it should be a decent list).
The hard part is when your playing multiple people every week if you take a soft/fluffy list you end up facing someone who isn't and they dominate the game and afew guys here will gloat when you lose even if you weren't really trying to win. It's a hard middle ground to find against people your not friends with.

Vermin-thing
28-11-2009, 15:08
Stages of a Skaven player


1. Slavedom

Your just starting up on your army of vile ratmen, your super exited about crushing the things of the surface world. This is the first time you paint your unit of slaves, you then realize that that only gave you 100 points. The shock of the work, and reward reaped resounds though your bones.

2. Rising though the ranks

You've stabbed many a man-thing, and fellow slave in the back, your almost a clanrat, but not just yet. You've hand a few (three) games, and are starting to understand the basic tactics behind being a skaven general.

3. Rusty flea-ridden blade

Now your well on your way though the ranks of the clanrats, stabbing in the back, left, right, and center. Your still having trouble with a few units (most likely the work of Ehsin spies), and have won a few well planned (from the back) games. You now realize that it's going to take a long-long time to rise to be a warlord, or a seer, which ever way you go. Most give up or are slain at this stage.

4. Thirst for power

Your now a stormvermin, and have a good number of games, and cunning victories under your tail. The pressure is on for the race to the top. It's getting near impossible to find a reliable rat. Now you must wait for the perfect time to strike, just when the warlord is down. You've honed you're skills, and sharpened your blades, the man-things fear you, but it is not time to show your full strength. All the pieces are set up... You chalange your warlord to a duel to the death, and you surpass him, and deal the death blow.

5. Internal paranoia

You've now grabbed the seat of authority, and are commanding vast armies to do your dirty work. You spend every few moments looking to the side, and back for any who might prove a threat. You make your subordenates fear you though ruling with an iron tail. You keep your stormvermin -the ones you trust the lest- next to you at all times, and strike down any who you see fit. A wise warlord would leave no mouse holes. You are a master of your trade, killing, and or enslaving thousands of man-things, the time is now that you start a war with the surface world, for that is the only thing left to concur.

unheilig
29-11-2009, 22:03
now tell me the 7 habits of effective model painters.

OrcsandGobbos
01-12-2009, 10:12
So im still a dependent i guess. My army rocks, but i know o and g isn't the best, but man i have fun every single game against so many better armies. But man do i have a low w/l record

Malorian
01-12-2009, 17:47
So im still a dependent i guess. My army rocks, but i know o and g isn't the best, but man i have fun every single game against so many better armies. But man do i have a low w/l record

If you have your own army and know your rules then you aren't dependent.

You know what you what (to have fun) so you are at least at the independent stage but the question is if you are playig that way for it to be a win/win situation or if you are doing what you want because you think it makes an interesting army with no regard for if the opponent wants a more serious game.

Thoume
01-12-2009, 19:57
now tell me the 7 habits of effective model painters.
Could give a quick try, lets see...

STAGE 1
Habit 1
You get some paint pots / sprays / decent brushes and find a space to work on..

Habit 2
You figure out how these all work, or rather just have a go at slapping thick loads of paint on your first model and seeing what happens!

Habit 3
You look up some techniques and learn what order a model should be painted (undercoat -> base colour -> highlight etc.)

STAGE 2
This is more in context of a gaming group. Outside of that (i.e. display pieces) its a little trickier, so if anyone can fill in on that... :p

Habit 4
The group identifies what the standard should be (without being ridiculous!) and from that get more enjoyment out of games.

Habit 5
This coexists with habit 4, as the group would have also identified why those standards are being met; not to give each other a hard time, but to enhance the game for everyone (for example)

Habit 6
Dunno if I can elaborate enough on this; given habit 4 and 5, painting and gaming are synergetic at this point anyway, or would I be taking this too literally? :p

STAGE 3
Habit 7
During time away from the painting table, draw inspiration from other work and sources (architecture, textures, lighting etc)

Might be too basic a way of putting it, but just an idea... :)

The Dude
03-12-2009, 01:47
Fantastic post Malorian!

I think I can say without a word of a lie that I am well and truly in the Interdependant stage. I hope more people read this and understand how progressing through the stages will help the SOCIAL aspect of the hobby for them.

silverstu
04-12-2009, 18:29
Brilliant post Mal.. I'm pretty much in the interdependant stage- a battle both myself and my opponent enjoys is always the best way to go.[mind you haven't played in a while- hope I haven't picked up any bad habits!].

Relconic
09-12-2009, 06:19
I have to say as a new player who is trying to learn what I want to play before I go and spend a lot of money on an army. I play with several players, a fun new ork player who never runs the same thing twice and builds his army right before combat, another new player, who is buying his forth army after rejecting Space Marines, Eldar and Tau.

Of course then i have the other three that i play with, One runs a mechanized Eldar force or a Salamander list with Vulkan. Another runs a Black Templar army and the last runs Blood Angels. These three are the ones that are teaching the game to us. However, they never go easy or relaxed to teach us the rules. Versus the Blood Angels and Salamanders myself and dave never make it past turn 3.

If, I hadn't met the ork player I don't think I would still be interested in this game. The three of them are still definitely in the third stage of gaming

Toshiro
15-12-2009, 23:54
Really great post Mal and very worthwhile for everyone in this hobby to read. :)

Stegadeth
08-02-2010, 23:33
I am new here and followed the link from your Lizardmen Itchy Buum batreps. This is great stuff. Thanks for posting this. Stephen Covey is a neat guy and to see his Habits adapted to wargaming is really fun and reminds me why I play.

frozenwastes
09-02-2010, 03:46
In the introduction to the anniversery edition of 7 Habits, Mr. Covey compares and contrasts the different approaches to success. The personality ethic and the character ethic. The character ethic is about integrating principles of effective living into your being. The personality ethic is about learning techniques and strategies that you use.

Might I suggest that 90% of what's being talked about here is taking ideas in the 7 habits that are character ethic ideas and then putting them into a personality ethic framework?

Going through these stages and learning/doing what you need to in order to fit into the next stage is all about the personality ethic.

In the character ethic (the approach of the 7 habits), you don't figure out how to use your army, you don't figure out how to shoot the cannon at the chariot. You don't figure out it's more fun for everyone if you don't try to win at their expense.

Instead you fundamentally change who you are and make principles the core of your identity.

Talking about it in terms of your development as a gamer is missing the boat and falling back into the personality ethic. It's not surprising though, as it's been the dominant ethic for nearly a century.

If you want to function as a habitually effective person in miniature wargaming, you need to make the principles of success part of your character in all areas of life-- not try to figure out the techniques to apply them to the game/hobby.

Blueshift
11-02-2010, 20:22
I took about a 2 year break and have come back in a zen-like state. it feels really, really good when you lose that overly-competitive drive. i'll admit, i was a total dick. i even turned my good friend who was a blast to play with into a hard-ass rules lawyering jackass. its the wargaming equivalent to a cheesy sports movie.

tezdal
11-02-2010, 20:26
You forgot stage 8, quit GW games, find something nobodys ever heard to play, join TMP, attain elite angry old grognard status.

frozenwastes
12-02-2010, 06:48
The 8th habit - going from good to great! LOL :D

Midevil216
18-02-2010, 18:15
I just like to roll dice :)

gwarsh41
18-02-2010, 19:09
This is a good example of why I like friendly games. Why I go PuG, I run into the guys who will play like a sloth so that we get less turns in. This might be slow people, but some of these guys are hardcore and know that my daemons need more turns to come in. When I play with friends though, we have the HQs throw down in fisty cuffs, we modify objectives for fun, we might say that deepstrike mishap never happened because I want to punch a bloodthirster in the jaw.

i wish more people would stop caring about winning, and do stuff that is silly. Test out builds that dont make any sense and whatnot.

skullkandy
25-02-2010, 01:19
good article. I humbly add "don't take yourself too seriously."

the reason being, no matter how well you know rules you will be wrong sometimes. If you don't take everything too seriously and play relaxed there is less of a chance of getting so hung up on one little thing that you start making mistakes. Also taking yourself too seriously ruins the mood of a lot of games.

metal bawks
25-02-2010, 11:34
+1 to "don't take yourself too seriously".

frozenwastes
25-02-2010, 22:54
+2 for sure. It's such a good principle to live your life by.

Kaos
02-03-2010, 22:57
I think i climb up and down this ladder between step 5 and 7 from time to time. Sometimes i just really want to smash an opponent (most likely in a tournament though) and sometimes i go soft like a teddybear. Sometimes we prepare the battle before and comes to terms with what to use. Been playing for some 15 years and moving around alot have made me experience very different gaminggroups and enviroments so it might have helped in me going up and down those steps on a whim.. At the moment i think im in step 5 and i feel i need to go up..

Good article!

Cheers-Kaos

P.S Talked a little about this with my Girlfriend who studies psychology a bit and she said this reminded her about this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erikson%27s_stages_of_psychosocial_development

Just thought it might be interesting to compare.

Elusive90
14-05-2010, 16:13
This is a great thread and I agree with it. At first you'll primarily want to improve yourself and whoop some ass, but in the end in the end the bigger picture is the most important. To be sure BOTH sides have fun and to encourage people to pick up the hobby. After all, you're the wise and seasoned general, you should be an example!

On a different note: I'm still stuck at habit 1. Just started off with my skaven. Currently reading the rules (I think I got a grip on the basics now though) and waiting for some last supplies to be delivered so I can start assembling / painting my army. :)

Justicar Valius
18-05-2010, 18:43
I suggest that you change your original post to either hobbyits rather than gamers or put this in.




7 Habits of Highly Effective Gamers

Despite the title, I don�t actually see a lot of people doing the things on the list, but as they have helped me, I shall pass them on. I�m leaving out things that you commonly hear about (know your codex, etc.), and focusing on the more obscure.


1) The Pause.

As in chess, a game of 40k starts off with infinite possibility (actually, chess is only near infinite, whereas 40k achieves infinity). However, as with chess, permutations decrease sharply as pieces are removed, and certain possibilities are discarded as obvious poor choices. This is why people become �better� players as the game progresses; their finite processing power is applied to progressively simpler problems, with greater chance of arriving at a successful conclusion. This accounts for many of the amazing �comeback� games that we have all seen (freakish dice rolling accounts for the rest).

As Grey Knight players, we are in the unusual position of starting the game with relatively few models on the table, so it behoves us to turn that perceived weakness into an advantage. Spend a while in silence at the beginning of each of your turns, while you figure out what you want each unit to do, and how you want to set about doing it. Move around if you need to; check LOS, gauge distances, that sort of thing, but don�t start making moves until you know what all your moves are going to be. And don�t chat... it can all to easily distract you.

We are not playing orcs or guard here. We don�t have 100 models on the table. I have less than 20. So there is no good reason why I shouldn�t know EXACTLY what I�m doing before I start doing it.


2) The Monologue.

Once I know what I�m going to do, I don�t shut up. I narrate EVERYTHING. Here is a sample of one unit at the start of the shooting phase:

�All right, that�s it for my movement, I�ll start my shooting phase now. I�m starting with squad Eddard here, and I�m going to roll to see if I can target that marine squad instead of the nearest target. I need 9 or less. I rolled a 7, so I�m shooting at the marines.

I have 6 men in the squad, with no specials, so I get 12 dice, needing 3�s to hit. 8 hit. Now I need 4�s to wound. 4 wounds. You save on 3+. OK, that�s it for this squad.�

The reason I do this is twofold. First off, it helps me know where I am and what I�m doing (game-wise). I�m not likely to forget much. Second, though, is that it allows my opponent to correct me BEFORE we have a problem (�Uh, actually, you need 5�s to wound, they have Mark of Nurgle.�) This makes my turns run very smoothly, with the added bonus that I get a reputation for being an honest and forthright player. We all know how hard it can be to distinguish between honest mistake and attempted cheating.


3) Agree LOS.

With a Water army, denying the enemy LOS is often critical. I determine LOS by using my tape measure, but with the blank side up, so no distances are being measured. I�ll then mark that line with a couple of dice and ask my opponent whether they agree that I have marked the line of sight correctly.

Example: �Do you agree that this is the LOS for your marine with the lascannon and that he cannot see anything to the left of this line?�

I�ll do this with all relevant enemy lines of sight, and then I�ll do the same for LOS that I DO want.

Example: �Do you agree that this is the LOS to your lead two tactical marines, including the vet sgt� and anything to the right of this line can see them?�

I can now move my Land Raider out from behind the trees, to the left of the first line, but to the right of the second line, secure in the knowledge that he can kill the lead marines without worrying about return fire from the lascannon. I may even confirm this with my opponent, depending on the quality of the player (poor ones can sometimes really need you to spell it out for them).

The huge benefit of working this way is that it avoids those heated LOS arguments that we�ve all had at one time or another. This makes the game more enjoyable and helps it run smoothly.


4) The Walk.

Periodically, you should walk a full circle around the table, stopping at various points to get a good look at the table from different vantages. Like Ender Wiggin, we must learn to shed our traditional "up-down" view of the table, and see what our enemy sees. Stand in his spot and ask yourself what you would try to have each of his units do. In this way you anticipate him, while perhaps seeing some LOS's that you would otherwise have missed.

I know some gamers who go so far as to play recon games entirely on what would normally be their opponent's side, with their troops advancing to meet them as the game progresses.


5) Always Measure.

Always measure the distance to your target, even if you know that it is within (or out of) range. Distance measuring is a limited commodity; you get to do it once per firing unit. Don't waste it.

Imagine an assault squad bearing down on your PAGK. You know it is within range, but measure anyway. It is 19" away. Now you know it cannot assault you next turn, allowing your other units to fire on more immediate threats.

Imagine a devestator squad in the far corner. You declare you are firing at it, although it is clearly out of range. You measure anyway, and learn that it is 42" away. Now you know you can safely leave cover, as the plasma cannons cannot reach you.


6) Victory Point Denial

In 2/3 of all standard games (Gamma and Omega), the winner is determined by victory points. While these will be examined in more detail later, there are two ways of getting VPs: you can take objectives, and you can kill the other guy.


If I can make one suggestion, you may want to mention that both Air and Water style combat usually has an emphasis on VP denial tactics while Earth and Fire typically do not. VP denial is a critical aspect of the 4th edition game, and deserves definite mention in just about any strategy article, in my opinion.

Ezzeran

Brother Ezzeran is quite right. In any given game, the Control player (usually us, see post 19) has to go to great lengths to deny their opponent the VPs that their superior raw killing power will give them. This is especially true for Grey Knight players, as our units are so expensive. A GK squad reduced to below half strength will often give the opponent more VPs than the entire value of the unit we are targeting. We must always weigh the VPs we are risking against the VPs we hope to gain, and use our greater mobility and conservatve tactics to minimise what risk we must take.

Thanks to Brother Ezzeran for raising the point.

this was 4th of course
7) Agree Terrain.

At the beginning of each game, before sides are chosen, point to each piece of terrain and agree the following points with your opponent:

-area terrain or WYSIWYG?
-if area, what hight?
-what is the cover save?
-what defines the limits of the terrain (important where terrain is mounted on a base)?
-is it difficult/dangerous/impassable?
-are any special rules being used (CoD, swamps, etc)?

It may seem tedious to do this before each game, but it avoids conflict later in the game when your Deepstrike scatters into terrain you think is merely dangerous (which is why you were deepstriking near it), but your opponent swears is impassable (thus killing your HQ unit).

Brother Runya
12-12-2010, 21:31
well i can't put my self in any place and thats just cuse i really wouldn't know where i am. i like to win not going to lie, but i have found my self likeing surten games were i lost or came so close to loseing that i can't say i really won the battle (one sergeant on each objective is a real knuckle bitter and hilarious to see) those tend to be my favorite games as my guys seem to die for the most random reasons some times. but you can still find me in my competitave mode were i don't nesisariously throw the rules in your face, but keep the realistic to the game.

i think i'm just a step off from the interdependent, but i don't know if that since i'nm re-learning the rules as of not played in a year. in any case cool thread, really made me look on my self as a gamer and a general guy :D

sigur
12-12-2010, 21:53
Still an interesting read at least. It's not a bad thing to take a step back once in a while and look at how one plays his games.

@Brother Runya: Welcome to Warseer. Please use proper English (including capital letters, punctuation, spelling and grammar) when posting on Warseer. The use of any sort of text speak is generally frowned upon. Remember that there are many people on Warseer whose first language isn't English and "writing as it's spoken" doesn't exactly help those people when they try to read a post. It helps not to "submit reply" immediately but re-read through your post again and make corrections if necessary. Enjoy your stay. :)

Brother Runya
12-12-2010, 22:23
sorry, i didn't even notice what i did till you pointed it out

FoigOfWar
25-01-2011, 03:56
:clap: Excellent work!

I for one am glad you posted this, and hopes everyone reads it.

I think at times even the best of us get sidetracked back into bad habits, and this is a beautifully concise way to describe how to combat them.

If you're ever unfortunate enough to be down this way, let me know... I'd love a game man.

Good luck with your hobby journey... because that's exactly what it is.

stonehorse
26-01-2011, 10:09
Thanks for posting this, it is a good read.

Bigbot
27-01-2011, 13:39
Lord I hate the 7 Habits book and the Authors overly smug face.

Scaryscarymushroom
31-03-2011, 05:11
Good article. Thanks for sharing!

thesheriff
30-05-2011, 20:30
This was a good read. Not sure where id put myself though....

See, i have multiple armies for what i want to achieve. All themed. My Mono-khorne daemons are my win army. My Skink army is for fun. My world eaters are for giggles. So, either i fall into a catagory im missing, or i am a unique case?

thoughts?

thesheriff

The bearded one
30-05-2011, 22:25
I'm between habit 6 and the interdependance stage. No break yet because I'm enjoying it too much. It's great how I actually recognise everything on the list as having gone through myself, and trying to subtly stimulate others to develop as well.

Malorian
30-05-2011, 22:31
This was a good read. Not sure where id put myself though....

See, i have multiple armies for what i want to achieve. All themed. My Mono-khorne daemons are my win army. My Skink army is for fun. My world eaters are for giggles. So, either i fall into a catagory im missing, or i am a unique case?

thoughts?

thesheriff

Given the limited info you are at least a stage 4 ASSUMING those armies you play for fun and giggles are there to be fun for your opponent as well and not just fun for you.

thesheriff
31-05-2011, 10:35
The skink army I like to bring when my mates are losing alot. Almost to cheer them up. There are lots of jokes associated with them, like all my stegadons are putting there foot across rivers in the bases, and the skink on the palanquin is the lv4, not the frog.

There meant to be mostly fun for my opponent. I've enjoyed painting them more!

frozenwastes
31-05-2011, 17:02
See, i have multiple armies for what i want to achieve. All themed. My Mono-khorne daemons are my win army. My Skink army is for fun. My world eaters are for giggles. So, either i fall into a catagory im missing, or i am a unique case?

thoughts?

thesheriff

The categories are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of Steven Covey's work in 7 Habits of Highly Effective people. So don't feel bad if they don't map to reality for you.

In fact, that's one of the earliest points Covey makes in his book. The map is not the terrain. So when the map doesn't reflect reality, you may want to operate based on reality and chuck the map for one that actually does represent the terrain to some reliable degree.

stonehorse
31-05-2011, 17:14
Hope you don't mind Malorian, but I've quoted the first post on this you made on my club's forum.

Cheers!

Malorian
31-05-2011, 17:18
Hope you don't mind Malorian, but I've quoted the first post on this you made on my club's forum.

Cheers!

That's no problem at all :)

Easy E
01-06-2011, 18:52
Good read.

I'm at 6, but I skipped Habit 1 and 3. :)

Also, for those who say this makes it seem like not wanting to win is better, you missed a habit. The one called Win/Win.

You can want to win all you want, but it is only a pyrrhic victory if your opponent feels like they LOST (You see LOSING is different than not simply not winning). Contary to the design of the rules, this game is not a zero-sum game.

Kallstrom
27-07-2011, 01:48
The stages of a Dwarf player

1. Beardling : Your eyes light up at the concept of a dwarf army, you can't wait to buy one up and get it killing things!

2. Denial: After several games you still think Dwarves are the bees knees. You havent won a lot of games, mostly losses and draws, but you blame your inexperience not your army.

3. Frustration: Your yanking your beard out or starting to think that the army is static and boring because you cant move like other faster shinier armies.

4. Acceptance: You accept that perhaps Dwarves were not the bees knees, your going to try another army.

5. Grey Beard: You come back and play the dwarves again but your more experienced and you don't really care if you win or loose as long as you can blacken some eyes and knock some teeth loose. Your a Dwarf damn it and your going to guzzle ale that would kill a manling after a single sip, tell bawdy stories and make anyone regret ever stepping up to you! GAAAAAR!!!


Wow, this is me in a nutshell. I'm on stage 2 but I can already see stage 3 and 4 on the horizon! :eek:

Warrior of Chaos
14-02-2012, 13:23
Here are my thoughts as a Warriors of Chaos player,

The Stages of a Chaos Player:

1) Lure of the Ruinous Powers / Marauder: You've committed to following the Dark Gods and seek victory in their name (not to mention some personal glory for yourself)! You strap on your marauder loin cloth, horned helmet and complain incessantly about said loin cloth riding up to give you a power wedgie because you have to trudge all the way across the battlefield for a fight.

2) Affiliate: You give yourself over to one of the big four and feel empowered by the bonuses they grant. The loin cloth still chafes, but you have your eyes on that new shiny suit of chaos armor! It has a 1 millennium or 1 edition warranty (which ever comes first), and somehow you're sure it's air conditioned with built in foot massage inserts...those long walks are getting painful (not to mention incoming missile fire).

3. Chaos Warrior: Woo hoo! Chaos armor! Life has never been so good. The missile fire doesn't sting as much anymore and the evil black-knight-with-skulls theme does wonders for your reputation. You begin to wonder why you're still walking and what the hell is that strange tentacle growing out of your backside? Oh well, it must be good because it pulls the chair up for you when you sit down....

4. Chosen: "Bwa ha ha ha! Fear me mortals! With my warshrine and magic items I am nigh unstoppable! I am the next Everchosen! I will crush yo.....wait a minute.....what is that strange purple glowing ball?" It is a tragic outcome as you run back to the chaos wastes, that new armor rattling the whole way. You scratch your head and run through every move you made (mostly walking across the battlefield drunk with power), but have a nagging feeling you had it coming...

5: Chaos Lord: Ahem....after the unpleasant incident with the purple glowing ball, you've grown wiser and more powerful. You pick your battles and crush your enemies under iron-shod boots. You debate on getting a mighty mount (perhaps a dragon or a manticore), but the sight of cannons, bolt throwers, and their ilk across the battlefield make your eye twitch. Perhaps walking isn't so bad after all?

LOL. Anyways, great post Mal!