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Bodhi
27-11-2009, 07:54
Hello,

I am trying to decide between Empire and Skaven armies for my first Warhammer Fantasy army, and I am wondering do you think that the Empire of Warhammer Fantasy is based on Renaissance Italy with all their city states? Or Cromwellian England? It really dosen't make a diference for the army that I'm picking; just curous,

Thanks

vahouth
27-11-2009, 08:08
I would say neither...
Considering it's place in the map, landmarks and names etc, my guess would be Holy Roman Empire of 1400-1600 AD.

The Red Scourge
27-11-2009, 08:24
Skaven however would be the italians ;)

Agoz
27-11-2009, 08:38
Italy and spain are represented by the dogs of war, bretonnia has more of a french and english feel (mostly french), and yeah, the empire is based on the holy roman empire, you can tell because they have german sounding names, and landsknecht style clothing (and greatsword regiments as well).

Ymir
27-11-2009, 08:44
and ELECTOR LORDS. I can hardly imagine anything more Holy Roman Empire:esque than that.

Gordian
27-11-2009, 08:59
The way I see it is:

Empire: Holy Roman Empire of Germany.
Bretonnia: France
Tilea: Italy
Estalia: Spain?

Hope that helps.

wilsongrahams
27-11-2009, 09:29
Yes most of that is correct, but they tend to be mixed. For example the bretonians have a good ammount of King Richards Crusades in them as well as Robin Hood theme, but are mostly based on King Loius attempt at recapturing Jerusalem etc.

The Empire also includes some elements from the spanish civil war and teutonic knights though is almost a direct copy of the holy roman empire with it's elector counts and names etc. There are also some russian influences from the north of the empire.

You also get Vampire Counts imported straight from Romania with all the Dracula names and theme.

Warriors of Chaos come from Scandinavia as the Vikings.

It is more an issue with timeline than location, as borders in our world changed, and forces were lost, whereas in the Warhammer world, you have 500bc Spartans as High Elves in the middle of the ocean and 1700ad (ish) Empire with 1100ad bretonians.

You also have Orcs as the great persian armies which at some point were a plague to all of europe just like the orcs.

The SkaerKrow
27-11-2009, 13:29
Vampire Counts aren't Romanians...they're Fantasy undead with some campy Bela Lugosi elements thrown in.

Beyond that, the Orcs and Goblins aren't Persians. Like, at all. Persians weren't the scourge of Europe, Barbarians and Eurasian Steppe Nomads were. Persians were at one time a scourge of the Mediterranean, but their role became somewhat diminished after Alexander, and even moreso with the rise of Rome.

If I had to peg Orcs and Goblins as anyone, it would be as the barbarian tribes of Europe such as the Lombards, mixed with Hunnish elements and fantastic joke units.

bludsturm
27-11-2009, 14:37
While it is slightly later than the target period, 'The Adventurous Simplicissimus' by Jakob von Grimmelshausen (published in the 1660s) is an excellent depiction of life during the 30 Years' War and pretty reflective of life in the Warhammer Empire as well.

http://rbsche.people.wm.edu/teaching/grimmelshausen/

DarthSte
27-11-2009, 15:26
Certainly not Cromwellian. I would have War of the Roses, if I were to pick a British era. But really they seem to be more based on the Holy Roman Empire.

Condottiere
27-11-2009, 17:02
Cromwellian/Salem/Puritan only in the sense of "Burn the Witch!"

The Empire lacks the centralism of the English state at any of it's stages of development, and teeters wildly between the urbanism of the Hanseatic League/Netherlands and the wilds of Transylvania.

ZeroTwentythree
27-11-2009, 17:06
Cromwellian/Salem/Puritan only in the sense of "Burn the Witch!"


They don't have exclusive rights to witch/heretic hunting. ;)

I don't see any connection, at all, between the Empire and 17th century England.

Vandelan
27-11-2009, 17:09
I remember having a long discussion with my friends about this matter.

I seem to remember seeing a thread about this before. O&G were supposedly rowdy Britons, along the lines of football hooligans.

I'm trying to remember what we said Dark Elves were. I believe we might have said Persians or something along those lines.

Amornar
27-11-2009, 17:11
Britain is represented in the warhammer world by Albion, which is celtic-age Britian.

Condottiere
27-11-2009, 17:12
Or partially by Atlantis, also sometimes referred to as Ulthuan.

The SkaerKrow
27-11-2009, 18:21
I'm trying to remember what we said Dark Elves were. I believe we might have said Persians or something along those lines.Well, the presence of horse archers, chariots and large quantities of light infantry gives some weight to that observation. I think it goes south once the Hydras hit the board, however...

Sepulcher
27-11-2009, 18:39
The empire is based off Germany. Reiksguard, puffy clothes, mustaches, and witch hunter hats are all German.

Bretonnians are French,
High Elves are English,
Dark Elves are Americans,
Empire are German,
Chaos are Vikings,
Tileans are Italian,
Vampires are Transylvanian, Egyptian, Hungarian, Turkish, and Italian,
Tomb Kings are Egyptian (no really, they are),
Ogre Kingdoms are Huns,
Wood Elves are Native American Indians and Celtic,
Lizardmen are Mayan and Aztec,
Skaven are a splash of Catholic Church, Japan, Circus Folk, and Italian Engineers,
Orcs and Goblins are fairly unique, though they have much in common with many barabarian tribes of history.
Beastmen are Native American Indians and Ancient Greece,
and lastly Demons are, well, Demons.

You need to look beyond the way the models look and read into how they behave and their history. While High Elves don't look English, they clearly are. They were the greatest empire in the world, they have colonies all over, and they were the rulers of the ocean. Thats basically the British Empire. They also had a civil war in which part of their civilization split off and gained its autonomy. That is based on the British perspective of the American Revolution with a twist, and lastly the Dark Elves became the rulers of the sea, much like the USA did post Britsh rule. Note the use of monsters in their fleet, much akin to the iron steam ships America developed during the American Civil War.

Also Albion is more like Avalon/Scottish Highlands/Moors than anything else. A land of British and Celtic Myths.

Lordsaradain
27-11-2009, 19:36
You also have Orcs as the great persian armies which at some point were a plague to all of europe just like the orcs.

Who gave you this misguided impression?
The persians weren't even in Europe, and they have nothing in common with orcs, whatsoever.

Persians in warhammer are (somewhat) represented by chaos dwarves. (the styled beards, the fire worship...)

Tenken
27-11-2009, 20:32
Beastmen are Native American Indians and Ancient Greece,


You seem to have everything right but this. Beastmen are clearly a parallel to Germanic barbarian tribes, maybe with a splash of Irish and Scottish (Visigoths, Ostrogoth, Vandals, etc.) and not Amerindians.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
27-11-2009, 21:09
Let's see.

Bretonnians are a weird, unmanagable mixture of high medieval france and england, late medieval france and england, 19-20-21th century prejudices of medieval society, and a hodgepodge of arthurian legend.

The Empire is the Heiliges Römisches Reich, shone through the lenses of the Salem witch trials, more modern prejudices of late medieval/early modern central europeans, and the usual, and often a bit tiresome GW DoomGloom filter.

High Elves are fantasy mulch.
Dark Elves are evil fantasy mulch.
Wood Elves are sylvan fantasy mulch.

Mortals of Chaos is 80s metal covers, with some historical and ahistorical generibarbarians thrown in for good measure. Also Conan.

Tileans is every Italian and some greeks from prehistory until the 17th century.

Vampires are cheeseballs. They are also, of course, generic Dracula Vampires with zombies set into the Warhammer setting.

Tomb Kings is 19th century Egyptian preconceptions, but skeletal. Way cool.

Ogre Kingdoms are Judge Dredd Fatties fused with steppe tribes stereotypes.

Lizardmen are...criminy. An insult to mesoamerican historical cultures with some dinosaurs thrown in.

Skaven are...pretty original actually. But they suffer under severely silly background execution, a belief that unorganized science is superior to structured science (you know...the natural science that actually work), and an obsession with hamster wheels.

Orcs and Goblins are a parody of a parody of Tolkienese orcs. Did I mention they are also comic relief?

Beastmen....well, look to Runequest for better implementation. Go Broo!

Daemons are an exercise in selling models to people who don't mind the sheer absurdity of the diametrically opposed gods of chaos working together as "chaos undivided". Right.

Kaptajn Congoboy is pretty tipsy at this stage. But he still can string sentences together! :D

carltmc
27-11-2009, 21:33
Which army is Spain? I want to do A Spanish Army, but I'll probably use Historical Models if there's no Equivalent..

Tenken
27-11-2009, 22:09
Which army is Spain? I want to do A Spanish Army, but I'll probably use Historical Models if there's no Equivalent..

Estalia in the warhammer world is fairly analogous to Spain, but there's no army for it.

noneshallpass!
27-11-2009, 22:35
I do not think GW applied some nation or empire to each race in Warhammer..

It's easy to single out certain things and take it quite far:
High Elves are like the jews. They see themselves as a chosen people and care only about themselves. They settled in places all over the world, but have now returned to their old lands.

Bregalad
27-11-2009, 22:52
Hello,

I am trying to decide between Empire and Skaven armies for my first Warhammer Fantasy army, and I am wondering do you think that the Empire of Warhammer Fantasy is based on Renaissance Italy with all their city states? Or Cromwellian England?
Counterquestion: Do Emperor Karl Franz and the capital Altdorf sound more British or Italian to you ;)


The empire is based off Germany. Reiksguard, puffy clothes, mustaches, and witch hunter hats are all German.

Bretonnians are French,
High Elves are English,
Dark Elves are Americans,
Empire are German,
Chaos are Vikings,
Tileans are Italian,
Vampires are Transylvanian, Egyptian, Hungarian, Turkish, and Italian,
Tomb Kings are Egyptian (no really, they are),
Ogre Kingdoms are Huns,
Wood Elves are Native American Indians and Celtic,
Lizardmen are Mayan and Aztec,
Skaven are a splash of Catholic Church, Japan, Circus Folk, and Italian Engineers,
Orcs and Goblins are fairly unique, though they have much in common with many barabarian tribes of history.
Beastmen are Native American Indians and Ancient Greece,
and lastly Demons are, well, Demons.
I thought Ogres were more Mongols, but difficult to distinguish. And Dark Elves were too slim for Americans ;) No seriously, can't follow you on this one: Dark Elves are just evil High Elves, with the usual evil=ice and blood fetish theme mixed in. Remember, the Celtic Sidhe are evil spirits, not the noble Tolkien elves.


Another one:
Chaos Dwarfs: Babylon/Assur (plus some Moloch cult)
Skaven: Eshin->Japan, Pestilence-> Middle Ages Plague, Moulder-> Frankenstein ;) , Skryre -> Italian renaissance crossed with steam punk and nuclear waste.
High Elves: Upper class British.
Orks: Lower class British.

Avian
27-11-2009, 23:52
I'm trying to remember what we said Dark Elves were. I believe we might have said Persians or something along those lines.
Assyrians, for a large part, though mixed in with a lot of other stuff as well.

Tenken
27-11-2009, 23:55
High elves are really obviously Atlantians. Ulthuan even looks like Atlantis. It has a similar history to Atlantis, except that it didn't sink, well not completely. It's even in the "same" location as Atlantis would be as described by Homer.

And I think it fairly obvious GW DID base all their armies/kingdoms/etc on real world cultures. Just look at the old world map, look familiar? It's just a slightly warped world map with the north pole and the south pole switched. Even the location of the kingdoms are parallel to real world culture. The empire is in the center of the old world, to it's west is Britonia, south-west of there is estalia, south of the empire is tilea, north-east of the empire is kislev. It's really blatantly obvious. And in the east you have Cathay (china), Ind (wonder what that is?:rolleyes:) and Nippon (they didn't even come up with a new name, just used it's native name).

Agoz
28-11-2009, 00:06
Which army is Spain? I want to do A Spanish Army, but I'll probably use Historical Models if there's no Equivalent..

Well, as far as I know, estalia (spain) uses the dogs of war army list.

EmperorNorton
28-11-2009, 01:05
Remember, the Celtic Sidhe are evil spirits, not the noble Tolkien elves.
Not evil, just misunderstood.


Skaven: Eshin->Japan, Pestilence-> Middle Ages Plague, Moulder-> Frankenstein ;) , Skryre -> Italian renaissance crossed with steam punk and nuclear waste.
Plus a healthy dose of World War 1.


High elves are really obviously Atlantians. Ulthuan even looks like Atlantis. It has a similar history to Atlantis, except that it didn't sink, well not completely. It's even in the "same" location as Atlantis would be as described by Homer.
Where does Homer mention Atlantis?
Plato does, and he's not exactly precise about the location.
It's still obvious that Atlantis was the main influence for Ulthuan, though.


And I think it fairly obvious GW DID base all their armies/kingdoms/etc on real world cultures.
Most certainly not.
They based their armies on stereotypes based on real world cultures. Which is what makes it fun.

Tenken
28-11-2009, 02:01
Where does Homer mention Atlantis?
Plato does, and he's not exactly precise about the location.
It's still obvious that Atlantis was the main influence for Ulthuan, though.


Most certainly not.
They based their armies on stereotypes based on real world cultures. Which is what makes it fun.

My mistake about Homer. But Plato says that Atlantis was "beyond the pillars of Hercules" AKA the Straight of Gibraltar, so in the Atlantic ocean, which is similarly where Ulthuan resides.

Stereotypes of real world cultures are still the basis for the whole warhammer world. So it really is based on real world cultures, a very one dimensional uninformed view, then mashed up with lots of dark fantasy, but based on real cultures nonetheless.

ZeroTwentythree
28-11-2009, 02:38
Beastmen are Native American Indians and Ancient Greece,



I've got a half serious thought that the Beastmen are at least distantly related to the Swiss. :D Much more so than Native Americans or Greeks. (Barring the obvious minotaur reference to Greek myth.)

Buddha777
28-11-2009, 02:51
Dark Elves are Americans

...They also had a civil war in which part of their civilization split off and gained its autonomy. That is based on the British perspective of the American Revolution with a twist, and lastly the Dark Elves became the rulers of the sea, much like the USA did post Britsh rule. Note the use of monsters in their fleet, much akin to the iron steam ships America developed during the American Civil War.


Ha certainly never though of it that way. Guess I need some reflection cause I certainly never equated Americans with the Dark Elves.

Beastmen are definitely Pre and Post Roman Era barbarians in terms of beliefs and perception from the "civilized world" for the record.

Condottiere
28-11-2009, 03:57
Actually, High Elves are a bastardization of Tolkien's and Moorcock's works, with sources from Atlantis and other Mediterranean cultures.

Tenken
28-11-2009, 03:59
Actually, High Elves are a bastardization of Tolkien's and Moorcock's works, with sources from Atlantis and other Mediterranean cultures.

The entire world is really a poke at Tolkien's works. Wasn't it basically started as a parody of LotR?

Sepulcher
28-11-2009, 06:28
You seem to have everything right but this. Beastmen are clearly a parallel to Germanic barbarian tribes, maybe with a splash of Irish and Scottish (Visigoths, Ostrogoth, Vandals, etc.) and not Amerindians.
The reason I go for Ancient Greece (not city greeks, but rural/barbarian Greeks) is because of their culture. (Herd)Stones, love of wine, ornamentation, and rituals. They are all very Greek-like in their representation. Not to mention the obvious use of Satyrs, Minotaurs, and Centaurs. The native american aspect comes in the use of bone and leather strings as decoration, ambush tactics, hair styles, and fighting style. They are a lot like Iroquois of northwestern america. This group includes the Mohawk indians, for those not familiar with north america indian culture. Plus these indian cultures lived in heavily wooded areas.

Foegnasher
28-11-2009, 06:58
Skaven are a splash of Catholic Church, Japan, Circus Folk, and Italian Engineers,

seriously, dude.

WTF?

Tenken
28-11-2009, 07:01
The reason I go for Ancient Greece (not city greeks, but rural/barbarian Greeks) is because of their culture. (Herd)Stones, love of wine, ornamentation, and rituals. They are all very Greek-like in their representation. Not to mention the obvious use of Satyrs, Minotaurs, and Centaurs. The native american aspect comes in the use of bone and leather strings as decoration, ambush tactics, hair styles, and fighting style. They are a lot like Iroquois of northwestern america. This group includes the Mohawk indians, for those not familiar with north america indian culture. Plus these indian cultures lived in heavily wooded areas.

Alright, while that is all true I have doubts that GW designers were thinking that far into things when they made beastmen. While there are parallels they're likely mostly coincidental. Most ancient human cultures used bones and leather for decoration, and the Germanic tribes were also fond of, and good at, woodland ambushes. Most human cultures have also been fond of alcohol, it's hard wired into our genes to some extent since alcohol helps kill germs in the mouth.

But that is an interesting way to look at the beastmen, that's for certain. I think the parallels to Germanic tribes are obvious but I suppose those more subtle parallels exist as well, though I doubt intentionally.

Condottiere
28-11-2009, 11:41
Skaven is a pot-luck culture - anything really far out turns up there, whether mad scientists or rat ninjas.

Xzazzarai
28-11-2009, 14:40
I think you can only draw parallels between Warhammer armies and our world to the man-like armies. I.e. Empire, Brets, WoC and to some extent the Lizardmen.

And that's all pretty clear.

Empire with all their names, how things look and so on, they are clearly inspired by The Holy Roman Empire.
Brets have the French cavalry power and the Brittish longbowmen and billmen. Allso, there are some stories and legends of old thrown in.
WoC come from the north as big raiders. It's pretty clear they're atleast partly inspired by the Vikings, or rather the stereotype look of them. The myth about the horns on their helms for example...
The Lizardmen are allso pretty obvious, beeing Aztecs, Inca and Maya Indians.

When talking about the rest of the armies, it gets much harder sience there is no obvious right or wrong. You can see some similarities between some cultures and some armies, but there are no strong connections.

Arbiter7
28-11-2009, 15:24
Ok, some stuff here is correct and some is plain wrong.

Let me make some things clear:

a) Influences
b) Regional Correlations on the map

these two should not be conflated, but sometimes they coincide.


Beasts of Chaos: Influenced by pagan cults, as well as the cult of dionysus from Greek/Roman times. No regional influence.

Brettonnia: Clearly a mix of post-norman invasion England & Normandy, with arthurian legend sprinkled on top (the lady e.t.c.). Has crusades, and is feudal. If you look for Britons and Normandy, they're here. Not so sure about the French being part of it though. Normandy yes, France doubtful.

Daemons: Daemons.

Dark Elves: Totally fantasy, tolkien inspired. Can be said to have drawn from the Noldor elves, the clan from which Finwe descended (so one can go from there to Feanor and the story with the silmarillions leading to the elf civil war). Can also be linked to the story of Maeglin, the first "Dark" Elf. Simply happen to coincide geographically with the U.S.A. and Canada (no influence from there).

Dwarfs: Totally fantasy, tolkien inspired. No regional connection.

The Empire: Coincides regionally and is heavily influenced by the Holy Roman Empire. Can be said to be related to central Europe, and modern country-wise, Germany, Austria and german speaking states of the 16th century onwards.

High Elves: Totally fantasy, tolkien inspired. Can be related to the Vanyar and Noldor Elves, the first being the most noble of the elves. Geographically they can be related to the myth of the Island of Atlantis in the atlantic ocean, as well as the tolkien island of Valinor.

Kislev: Russians, obviously! Lore of ICE and all those woolen hats.

Lizardmen: Coincide geographically with central and southern america, and have drawn their influence accordingly. Distinct Aztec and Mayan features. Both Aztecs and Mayas worshipped SERPENTS related to Lizards, ergo lizardmen. Dinosaurs thrown in for more fun.

Ogre Kingdoms: Their imagery is clearly drawn from the mongols.

Orcs&Goblins: Totally fantasy, tolkien inspired. Some inspiration from hammered brit londoners.

Skaven: I have absolutely no idea where these come from. Perhaps they are a novelty for warhammer!

Tomb Kings: Both regional and inspired by ancient egypt.

Vampire Counts: Both regional and inspired by Eastern Europe. Vlad and the vampire myth. Apart from that, drawn inspiration from all things supernatural such as ghosts, wraiths e.t.c., from all around europe.

Warriors of Chaos: Obviously pagan norsemen and skandinavian folk.

Wood Elves: Totally fantasy, tolkien inspired. Can be related to the last of the three original elvish tribes, the Teleri. Thranduil and Legolas were Teleri Elves, and they were the ones that dwelt in woodland kingdoms. The only thing left out was their love for the sea.


If you look for other countries:

Spain: Estalia
Italy: Tilea
Japan/China: Nippon


And that wraps it up!!

Condottiere
28-11-2009, 15:48
Cathay - China
Nippon - Japan

Arbiter7
28-11-2009, 15:51
Cathay - China
Nippon - Japan

Right! Thanks for that!

I also forgot to mention that, -as was already pointed out somewhere- skaven can be related to the various plagues (e.g. the black plague) that have hit europe in the middle ages.

Sugarsw337
28-11-2009, 17:21
isnt, nippon the japanese word for japan? ^^

Skaven is just pure bastardized warfare, Biological weaponry, slaves, experimental devices, assassination.
not saying that they are the only one that do it, it just feels like GW wanted to put all the crazy evil disgusting stuff into one race ^^

Freman Bloodglaive
28-11-2009, 20:33
I'd have thought that Orcs and Goblins derived much of their "feel" from the Gaelic tribesmen. Scots Picts and Irish.

wilsongrahams
29-11-2009, 08:50
Maybe the feral orcs using blue facepaint is a clue here too... Maybe we will see them in tartan loin cloths next?

mweaver
29-11-2009, 15:39
For those who like the Renaissance feel for their Empire armies, Artizan is starting a Renaissance/Landsknecht range:

http://www.artizandesigns.com/prod.php?prod=1739

Lord Solar Plexus
29-11-2009, 18:59
I'd have thought that Orcs and Goblins derived much of their "feel" from the Gaelic tribesmen. Scots Picts and Irish.

'Orcs, wha hae wi' ..uhm..Wallace bled?

kafrique
29-11-2009, 20:42
Brettonnia: Clearly a mix of post-norman invasion England & Normandy, with arthurian legend sprinkled on top (the lady e.t.c.). Has crusades, and is feudal. If you look for Britons and Normandy, they're here. Not so sure about the French being part of it though. Normandy yes, France doubtful.



Well, you're right about the plain wrong part. Medieval France was famous for being the center of knighthoodm chivalry, and feudalism. Bretonnia quite literally is 12th century France ripped from history and dumped into a grimdark fantasy setting, with some Britishism thrown in. It's geography, politics, names, everything scream feudal France. The only big change is the trade of Christianity for the Arthur-inspired grail searching, and a Lionheart-inspired king.

mrtn
29-11-2009, 22:52
Dark Elves: Totally fantasy, tolkien inspired. Can be said to have drawn from the Noldor elves, the clan from which Finwe descended (so one can go from there to Feanor and the story with the silmarillions leading to the elf civil war). Can also be linked to the story of Maeglin, the first "Dark" Elf. Simply happen to coincide geographically with the U.S.A. and Canada (no influence from there).


I'd say it's more inspired by Moorcock's Melniboneans. I can't remember the Noldor being that perverted and evil.

Ymir
30-11-2009, 05:58
Well, you're right about the plain wrong part. Medieval France was famous for being the center of knighthoodm chivalry, and feudalism. Bretonnia quite literally is 12th century France ripped from history and dumped into a grimdark fantasy setting, with some Britishism thrown in. It's geography, politics, names, everything scream feudal France.

France and Occitania, which was not really the same. The use of names like Carcassonne isn't subtle at all.

ZeroTwentythree
30-11-2009, 06:16
Didn't the Skaven thing just come up recently?

They're largely "borrowed" from the Fritz Lieber book "Swords of Lankhmar" in which a race of subterranean ratmen led by a council of 13, plots and schemes against the surface dwellers above, attacking them with magic, lightning weapons, etc.

Arbiter7
30-11-2009, 06:32
Well, you're right about the plain wrong part. Medieval France was famous for being the center of knighthoodm chivalry, and feudalism. Bretonnia quite literally is 12th century France ripped from history and dumped into a grimdark fantasy setting, with some Britishism thrown in. It's geography, politics, names, everything scream feudal France. The only big change is the trade of Christianity for the Arthur-inspired grail searching, and a Lionheart-inspired king.

Plus the longbows and the fey. I guess you know more about medieval france than I do. But post-normandy england, was very...french in some manners :P. The lionheart and all the plantagenets spoke french, not english, and this was the situation in the english court for quite a while, since most of them were born and bred in what is today, france.


I'd say it's more inspired by Moorcock's Melniboneans. I can't remember the Noldor being that perverted and evil.

I just put the Noldor in to show that they had common ancestry with the high elves. And from Feanor onwards it was wicked. Of course not THAT wicked, but it led to an elvish civil war, which to the best of my knowledge, doesn't happen in any other fantasy books at the time warhammer was written. But you are definetly correct, the melniboneans make up much more for the character of the dark elves. It could be said that Dark Elves share tolkien and moorcockean roots!

Also,

zerotwentythree, excellent find on the skaven!

vahouth
30-11-2009, 10:57
The reason I go for Ancient Greece (not city greeks, but rural/barbarian Greeks) is because of their culture.

The irony of your words! Ancient Greeks considered everyone who was not Greek a barbarian. :D
Also there was no cultural difference between city or rural Greeks...


(Herd)Stones, love of wine, ornamentation, and rituals. They are all very Greek-like in their representation.

What stones? I always thought they were menir.:confused:
What ornamentation or rituals?:confused:
Love of wine? You must be reffering to the Centaurs.


Not to mention the obvious use of Satyrs, Minotaurs, and Centaurs.

Dark Elves also use Harpies and Hydras, and Bretonia Pegasus.

Arbiter7
30-11-2009, 12:56
I agree with my compatriot vahouth, if something is influenced heavily by ancient greek imagery in GW products, then it's the 40k eldar dire avengers.

Condottiere
30-11-2009, 16:18
Well, you're right about the plain wrong part. Medieval France was famous for being the center of knighthoodm chivalry, and feudalism. Bretonnia quite literally is 12th century France ripped from history and dumped into a grimdark fantasy setting, with some Britishism thrown in. It's geography, politics, names, everything scream feudal France. The only big change is the trade of Christianity for the Arthur-inspired grail searching, and a Lionheart-inspired king.The original source for the Arthurian mythos is Celtic, then mixed in the pot with some Roman Britain resistance fighters.

It was then ripped-off (homage) by French troubadours and adapted to fit in with the prevailing trend of courtly love, which is why Lancelot is a Frog. The Angevins brought it back this version to England and Malory based his work on it.

Col. Dash
30-11-2009, 22:05
The Empire is very much the Holy Roman Empire, from names to models, its them. Kislev is very heavily influenced by late period Poland and Lithuania. Winged Hussars are a famous Polish troop type from that era, google the name and you will see the models ripped straight from the history books. There is some Russian influence but then look at real life and you see the same plus where was Poland? Right next to the HRE just like Kislev is right next to the Empire. I have been researching medievil Poland all day for armor research and it caught my attention some people were saying Russia.

Beastmen are the Germanic barbarians who fought Rome. I thought GW itself mentioned orcs were basically Scots with some hooliganism tossed in at some point in the past. The High and dark elves are Moorcock's Melniboranians. For wood elves look no further than The Hobbit.

Brets are the 100 years war French and British forces with Arthurian Legend tossed in.

Chaos Dwarves are Persians.

I think the regular Dwarves are simple fantasy stereotypes or based on The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

Chaos is from Moorcock. Undead are from pop-culture.

Tomb Kings are from dum dum dum The Mummy perhaps? Which came first?

No clue about ogres. I cant see any real world analogues which might explain their crappy fluff.

Did I miss any in game races?

Condottiere
30-11-2009, 23:51
You did - Fishmen.

Col. Dash
01-12-2009, 02:02
They are obviously based on visions from a bad experience at a sushi place.

LaughinGremlin
01-12-2009, 04:13
...some more gap filler...

Speaking of Nippon being an actual name: Cathay is the ancient name for China.

Kislev is shortened from an actual city name in Eastern Europe. Warhammer's Kislev is a hybrid of many slavic states -- not just Russia. The capital, Kislev, is like Ukraine's capital, KIEV, but keep in mind that Kiev was the original capital of Medieval Russia before it moved to Moscow. Present day Prague is definitely not in Russia, but it is in a slavic country. Winged lancers are more of a Polish thing - right? They (their progeny) were still around (minus the wings) when the Wermacht's Panzers were rolling through Poland. Never was a lancer charge so "glorious" (and brave?) as when they charged Hitler's armor.

Anyway, west of Normandy, where the northwest corner of France juts out into the North Atlantic, is the region of FRANCE known as Bretony. Sound familiar? Clearly, some people on this thread aren't very good at geography. Despite the blatant clue in the name, there is really no difference between the French and English (really also French) knights. The English longbow, mounted or not, is the main English contribution. The rest is northern France. Even English royalty was French for a long time. The greatest symbol of English middle-ages history is King Richard the Lionheart, and he didn't speak a lick of English -- just French.

Check out the names of some of those northern Chaos tribes and tell me that they aren't also influenced by eastern steppeland raiders such as Mongols.

Lesson over.

Ymir
01-12-2009, 04:44
Speaking of Nippon being an actual name: Cathay is the ancient name for China.

To elaborate a little further; Cathay is derived from the Khitan people, who controlled northeastern China (Liao dynasty) and later Central Asia (Qara-Khitai) for large parts of the high middle ages. The Khitans were rather influenced by chinese culture (but later also persian and islamic), and their lands were a gateway to China from Europe and the Middle East for quite some time, so despite them not being real chinese, their name became associated with China, and simply stuck. I don't know russian, but I've heard people in russian films refer to chinese as 'kathaiski' or something like that, so it seems the term is actually in use still.


They (their progeny) were still around (minus the wings) when the Wermacht's Panzers were rolling through Poland. Never was a lancer charge so "glorious" (and brave?) as when they charged Hitler's armor.

Wasn't that in WW1?


Anyway, west of Normandy, where the northwest corner of France juts out into the North Atlantic, is the region of FRANCE known as Bretony

Also, Bretonnia sounds kinda like briton, cross Britanny with briton and you'll have Bretonnia. Oh, and of course, something from Britanny is breton. Breton + Britannia might be an even better equation.


The rest is northern France. Even English royalty was French for a long time. The greatest symbol of English middle-ages history is King Richard the Lionheart, and he didn't speak a lick of English -- just French.

There's quite a bit of southern France in Bretonnia's concept also. The entire concept of courtly love and chivalry, which Bretonnia relies heavily upon, originated in Occitania, and as I've previously mentioned, the city of Carcassonne has exactly the same name in the Warhammer world as in modern France. Richard the Lionheart did speak a little english, as far as I know, but he was much, much better versed in french and occitan.



Check out the names of some of those northern Chaos tribes and tell me that they aren't also influenced by eastern steppeland raiders such as Mongols.

Kurgan, for example, is a turkic word for a kind of tumulus that has given rise to theories about an ancient eastern european Kurgan culture who according to the Kurgan hypothesis was the original speakers of the proto-indo-european language.

Man-Chu isn't really subtle either. At all.

Condottiere
01-12-2009, 05:05
Brittany is also the home of Celtic refugees fleeing Anglo-Saxon invaders, supposedly attracted by the settlement of Legions withdrawn from England previously by Roman Emperors.

Bloodknight
01-12-2009, 08:27
Kislev is shortened from an actual city name in Eastern Europe. Warhammer's Kislev is a hybrid of many slavic states -- not just Russia. The capital, Kislev, is like Ukraine's capital, KIEV, but keep in mind that Kiev was the original capital of Medieval Russia before it moved to Moscow. Present day Prague is definitely not in Russia, but it is in a slavic country. Winged lancers are more of a Polish thing - right? They (their progeny) were still around (minus the wings) when the Wermacht's Panzers were rolling through Poland. Never was a lancer charge so "glorious" (and brave?) as when they charged Hitler's armor

Kislev is also a Jewish holiday. I guess they just took something that sounded Russian.
And the Polish weren't stupid enough to charge tanks, that was a propaganda effect that, for some reason, worked and still is believed by many, just as the SS super soldiers myth that is perpetuated.

dangermouse425
01-12-2009, 09:27
And the Polish weren't stupid enough to charge tanks, that was a propaganda effect


The much romanticised myth of Polish cavalry charging German tanks is, like most myths, an exagerrated account of a real event.

The Polish cavalry attacked a German position that they believed to consist solely of infantry, but it didn't. Bloodknight is right, it wasn't a stupid decision from the Poles to charge tanks with horses, but instead it was a military blunder that underestimated the composition of the enemy force, which led to the death of many Polish soldiers and a propoganda opportunity that was quickly acted upon by the Germans.

Keeping the post on-topic: I would agree with the consensus that the Empire are based on the Holy Roman Empire, rather than Italy or England. :)

DM

Col. Dash
01-12-2009, 12:56
Ahh you two ninja'd me heheh, I was going to jump on the cav vs tanks myth myself, but you beat me to it.

Ghal Maraz
01-12-2009, 13:58
It could be said that Dark Elves share tolkien and moorcockean roots!


And High Elves too.
Ulthuan = Melnibonč (sleeping dragons, demi-human race, greatest seafarers in the world, excellent sorcerers, greatest city protected by a sea-maze, ancient empire) minus the attitude and the chaos aspect.

dangermouse425
01-12-2009, 14:42
Ahh you two ninja'd me heheh, I was going to jump on the cav vs tanks myth myself, but you beat me to it.

Having studied a History degree that is one thing that really annoys me! People perpetuating untrue stories with a historical basis based on some silly story/myth, argh!

Arbiter7
01-12-2009, 15:00
And High Elves too.
Ulthuan = Melnibonč (sleeping dragons, demi-human race, greatest seafarers in the world, excellent sorcerers, greatest city protected by a sea-maze, ancient empire) minus the attitude and the chaos aspect.

I'm convinced. I guess they reserved the chaos aspect for the dark elves!

As for the france/normandy/brettonia debate, there have been a few of those over the years... I don't know enough myself to have a firm opinion. I do think that normandy and france were sort of distinct kingdoms. I don't know whether the normans had knights before the french did, and the fact that the english court was born and educated in normandy and aquitane for a long time, tells me nothing as to whether names like louen leonceur and gilles le breton are of a norman or a french influence. But perhaps it is wrong to make such of a distinction between france and normandy, I guess that would upset a frenchman just like it upsets me, being greek, to make a distinction between greeks and trojans or greeks and macedonians...

And I'm glad to know that kislev is heavily influenced by poland and relevant countries.

willowdark
01-12-2009, 17:10
Great Briton is essentially the product of generational/cultural flux after flux of pagan barbarianism crashing against the walls (sometimes literally) of classical Roman "civilization," ultimately embodied by France. French culture prevailed over, defined and set the standard for all European cultures that it touched because it was fortified by classical Roman ideology.

Christianity, literacy, education, economics and politics all diffused from the remains of the Roman Empire through France and was imposed on the Barbarians of both Germany and England, as well as Italy and Eastern Europe, flavored by the French who carried it.

Trying to draw clear distinctions between Medieval France and England, as much as France and Germany, is a fools errand. France overlapped its neighbors in every way, defining their cultures by both its influences on them and their reactions to it. This was the trend that drove European history from Charlemagne to Napoleon to Hitler. There are no clear divisions.

It wasn't until the 30 years war and the Peace of Westphalia that the idea of one nation's sovereignty over itself was even acknowledged on any kind of significant scale. Prior to that, European cultures pushed against each other, back and forth, endlessly, spilling over each other like a painter's studio during an earthquake.

To GW's credit, they acknowledge this by freely blending the histories as they see fit. The pastiche is really rather artfully done.