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Dark_Templar
27-11-2009, 23:10
I have been flicking through the C:SM again, and cannot feel that (in the vein of the Tau Empire Codex), it was written as pure Ultramarine propaganda to appease the population of Ultramar and make them feel nice and snuggly when they go to bed at night.

I mean, seriously, Calgar defeating an Avatar of Khaine barehanded? Was the Avatar already dead and Calgar just beatdown on the carcass for fun? Aren't the Avatars all fiery and stuff? But Calgar didn't get burnt?

I don't mind some slight exaggeration in a codex, but I don't think you need to make armies sound so incredibly awesome with stuff like this just to make their players feel better about their choice of force.

Thoughts?

CommissarGuard
27-11-2009, 23:18
in the HH book fulgrim. fulgrim took out an avatar by him self

x2wyckedx
27-11-2009, 23:19
Fulgrim is also a Primarch.

azimaith
27-11-2009, 23:19
Fulgrim is a primarch, Marneus Calgar is a chapter master.

CommissarGuard
27-11-2009, 23:22
ok soz just saying

Irisado
27-11-2009, 23:33
Thoughts?

Exaggerating the 'heroics' of an Ultramarine Special Character shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone in my view. GW has made all these pretty Ultramarine models and they want to sell them, so writing stories about how they are invincible, and will take anything down, no matter how improbable, is just par for the course, especially given that younger gamers, who the product is increasingly aimed at, can be somewhat impressionable.

It's all linked to their marketing policy, and their desire to sell Special Characters in particular in my opinion.

As for whether I think the piece of background is credible. As an Eldar player, I would say that it is very unlikely that any non Daemon/Primarch/Monstrous Creature would have a hope of taking down the Avatar with his/her/its bare hands.

ResidentSteve
27-11-2009, 23:36
Not really barehanded though was it?

Dark_Templar
27-11-2009, 23:44
I would not say I am surprised that this has been written, just disappointed that we are still waiting for a proper Codex: SPACE MARINES, instead of Codex: Ultramarines (and friends).

Seriously though, whether it was barehanded or if he had a tree branch, does not really change the fact that the writers obviously got a tad overexcited in their fan-gasms.

nedius
27-11-2009, 23:49
Fulgrim did it barehanded, Calgar used the gauntlets, I assume! Besides, who want's to read the story of the SM chapter master who heroically defeated a grot in one on one combat?

Mannimarco
27-11-2009, 23:50
this story of how calgar beat the avatar like he was its daddy has been told and retold so many times its almost like a game of chinese whispers for those who have not heard it

so what exactly happened? did he one punch KO it? did they wrestle and smash each other like the gods of old, each one laying several mighty blows each powerul enough to kill a lesser man? did the avatar have to wade through a storm of fire to get to him, heavy weapons blowing chunks out of him until he manages to reach calgar who beats the weakened avatar? you see if you havnt read the story and are just going by what others have said then your likely to have heard at least 2 of the above versions

all armies get hyped up in their own codex, its just the ultra one goes that little bit further than the other races ones

oh and fulgrim is a primarch possessed by a particularly powerful daemon, i gotta say primarch power level + greater daemon = more powerful than chpater master

Irisado
27-11-2009, 23:53
Not really barehanded though was it?

Not literally no, but I have just looked up the relevant passage (p.35 for those who are interested), and it does seem rather over the top, even for a piece of background, in my opinion.


I would not say I am surprised that this has been written, just disappointed that we are still waiting for a proper Codex: SPACE MARINES, instead of Codex: Ultramarines (and friends).

Ultramarines have been GW's favoured Chapter for a long time, partly because they are the 'regular' Chapter, so are the easiest to depict, both in terms of core rules and army structure (the Black Legion fall into a similar category for Chaos).

I don't think it's going to change any time soon, if ever, for that reason, so I think you are probably stuck with it.


Besides, who want's to read the story of the SM chapter master who heroically defeated a grot in one on one combat?

Nobody, but pulling off that sort of attack against a similar sized character, such as a Farseer, Autarch, or even a Phoenix Lord, would have been just as heroic, and a lot more plausible in my view.

Dark_Templar
27-11-2009, 23:56
this story of how calgar beat the avatar like he was its daddy has been told and retold so many times its almost like a game of chines whispers for those who have not heard it

so what exactly happened? did he one punch KO it? did they wrestle and smash each other like the gods of old, each one laying several powerul blows each powerul enough to kill a lesser man? did the avatar have to wade through a storm of fire to get to him, heavy weapons blowing chunks out of him until he manages to reach calgar who beats the weakened avatar? you see if you havnt read the story and are just going by what others have said then your likely to have heard at least 2 of the above versions



So if the Codex is the only place I have read it, then enlighten me as to where I can "read the story"?

I always thought that they stripped down to their togas, oiled up, and wrestled like it was M39.1999 all over again, after which he one-inch-punched it into the warp.

Dark_Templar
28-11-2009, 00:01
I don't think it's going to change any time soon, if ever, for that reason, so I think you are probably stuck with it.


Nobody, but pulling off that sort of attack against a similar sized character, such as a Farseer, Autarch, or even a Phoenix Lord, would have been just as heroic, and a lot more plausible in my view.

Yep, we are all stuck with GW, whether we like their business practices or not, let alone the fluff.

But I have to say that I see Kantor's Rynn's World campaign as more heroic than Calgar's Avatar squirrel-grip. I do not have a problem with the Ultramarines, I just wish that other Chapters got similar attention (although I believe GW are starting to do this).

Anyways, thanks for the replies.

Mannimarco
28-11-2009, 00:02
and you would be right, problem is the ultra hate on the net, there are many who havnt read the story but cite that battle as a reason for the hate then go off retelling the story and getting it either horribly wrong or over exaggerating it to prove their point and reason for their hatred for al things smurfy

Irisado
28-11-2009, 00:08
and you would be right, problem is the ultra hate on the net, there are many who havnt read the story but cite that battle as a reason for the hate then go off retelling the story and getting it either horribly wrong or over exaggerating it to prove their point and reason for their hatred for al things smurfy

I dislike Ultramarines an awful lot, but I don't go around spreading distorted information about them though, so the two are not necessarily correlated ;).

Still, the point you make resonates for a variety of different armies, not just Ultramarines, so I am sure that we could all point to having read something similar online for most armies in the 40K universe.

Dark_Templar
28-11-2009, 00:10
and you would be right, problem is the ultra hate on the net, there are many who havnt read the story but cite that battle as a reason for the hate then go off retelling the story and getting it either horribly wrong or over exaggerating it to prove their point and reason for their hatred for al things smurfy

I was actually really close to starting an UM force recently, as, despite the hate and whining about how popular they are, I have never seen one in the flesh. My biggest problem was always
a: I do not like taking special characters, unless they really appeal to me
b: With 6 or 7 UM special chars in the book, I felt kind of guilty not to be using them.

Therefore, I just axed the idea altogether and decided to go Crimson Fists.


So my point is that I just want to see GW pull in the reigns a bit on the exaggerated fluff. There is nothing wrong with stories in the codex about your chosen army losing a battle or headbutting an Ork boss, but sometimes going that bit too far can just discredit the rest of the writing.

threewolftats
28-11-2009, 00:18
what is the point of yet another whine thread about the Ultramarines/C:SM?

Its been done to death already, and achieved about as much as Canute did when he told the tide to turn......

Death Company
28-11-2009, 00:20
I get so tired of this textual vomit.

He defeated an Avatar with dual, master-crafted, POWER FISTS - he didn't smack it on the nose. He also almost died in the process.

How is that anymore absurd than any other factions codex? (LOL, Tyranid hive fleet owned with zero casualties Tau 'dex comes to mind..)

We get it; Ultramarines are big jerk-faces who get all the spotlight. Deal with it.

Xeno angst fuels me.

Irisado
28-11-2009, 00:30
I get so tired of this textual vomit.

You don't have to read it you know ;).


How is that anymore absurd than any other factions codex? (LOL, Tyranid hive fleet owned with zero casualties Tau 'dex comes to mind..)

Nobody has said that this sort of thing does not happen in other codices as well, it was just the Ultramarines being mentioned in this particular case.

Mannimarco
28-11-2009, 00:31
NOOOOOOOO the tau dex! the mary sue is strong with that one

ok all codex books have their faction winning, what we want is the victory to be more realistic and believable (for a fantasy world thousands of years in the future anyway) its the rampant OTT extremism of some factions that may get some people bouncing around screaming OMFG SPASS MAHREENS FTW!!!!11!!!! but its just as likely to turn people off, perhaps even more so

lets look at another codex and its story of its faction winning, his forces wait to ambush a passing convoy, the manage to board and capture 1 (yes 1 not 10 or 100) 1 strike cruiser after several of its crew turn traitor, thats what we get in the chaos codex, Ii quite liked that story, dont know what anybody else thought of it but im sure many would hate it if it came off as HURON CAPTURES 50 SHIPS AND HALF A CHAPTER TURNS AND JOINS HIM CUZ HES SUPER AWESOME

Dark_Templar
28-11-2009, 00:37
How is that anymore absurd than any other factions codex? (LOL, Tyranid hive fleet owned with zero casualties Tau 'dex comes to mind..)
me.[/I]

Um...I actually did say "in the vein of the Tau Empire Codex" in my very first post. I never said anything about them being any different to other codices, I just feel this is one of the more extreme examples.

Also, you really do not have to read it, and I am not sure that you have provided anything positive to the discussion at all, and am not sure why you have bothered to sit in here and post in the first place.

Sorros
28-11-2009, 00:44
I just pretend that the Calgar-owning-Avatar event never happened. Same with any of the other ludicrous stories from any other codex--although, I don't think that the Eldar codex has any of that sort, though I may be wrong. Having Calgar punch an autarch down or a wraithlord makes much more sense than a piece of a GOD, and a WAR god at that.

I would rather see heroic stories of a few dozen marines storming a warship or such, so that they are indeed outnumbered but they're fighting guys who are ship crew, not trained super-soldiers. And it's only 1 war medium-sized ship, not a freaking craftworld.

Dark_Templar
28-11-2009, 00:50
Yeah, I am pretty sure in another story Calgar punched a planet into a sun and used his psychic powers to turn a squiggoth inside out.

Seriously though, what other crazy codex stories are out there?

I know the Grimaldus tale in the BT codex is a bit of a stretch, and Yarrick should be dead ten times over (that guy is definitely protected by the Chaos gods, he just doesn't know it yet).

Mannimarco
28-11-2009, 01:02
since you ask what other crazy codex stories are out there, even though its not codex its still worth mentioning: vraks 3 - inquisitor rex vs ang'grath the big bad! the ultimate bloodthirster! the guy who has only been summoned twice in the past because it takes a hell of a lot to impress khorne enough that he will let his best warrior go help you

i cant hype this guy up enough he really is that good, or rather he's meant to be.......

d6juggernaut
28-11-2009, 01:07
well...there is that report in the necron codex talking about how a destroyer's shot can easily blow a hole into a land raider, game-wise that's far from the truth, but fluff-wise...I can actually see that been possible since Necrons have the most advanced technology out of all the races and their most basic gauss flayers can harvest molecules and erase enemies from existence altogether.

Sirroelivan
28-11-2009, 01:35
About Calgar killing the Avatar: The avatar first smashed itself through 1st company Terminators and had loads of heavy weapons fire directed at it. Even then Calgar barely managed to kill it, leaving him grievously wounded.

A bit more fluff on the other chapters would have been nice though, it's a bit too much of the ultramarine stuff.

Caiphas Cain
28-11-2009, 02:03
I love how in these threads all xenos player complain how SMs get so much love, and all SM players are trying to defend calagrs awesomeness, and compare it to something unrelated.

yes, all codexes have OTT stuff, but C:SM takes it a bit far.

lord marcus
28-11-2009, 02:04
so what exactly happened? did he one punch KO it? did they wrestle and smash each other like the gods of old, each one laying several mighty blows each powerul enough to kill a lesser man? did the avatar have to wade through a storm of fire to get to him, heavy weapons blowing chunks out of him until he manages to reach calgar who beats the weakened avatar? you see if you havnt read the story and are just going by what others have said then your likely to have heard at least 2 of the above versions




he falcon punched it in the dice.

downundercadet07
28-11-2009, 02:05
IAWTAP-- You consider the Avatar had just waded through the entire first company, and doubtless killed A LOT of them, and then was dueling with Calgar's 30 man honor guard while the big bad blue boss of McCragge circled him and attacked with gauntlets made in a demon forge for an exalted warrior of Chaos. I personally think the Avatar made a pretty good accounting of himself, actually.

I always wonder, as an eldar player, how this passage gets so much hate, but one SM chapter, 1000 marines, manages to single-handedly wipe out an ENTIRE CRAFTWORLD, and no one bats an eye. Seriously, that is the way more outrageous distortion. An entire craftworld? And it wasn't some weird circumstance, but a pretty straight up fight? Please.

Kahadras
28-11-2009, 02:20
About Calgar killing the Avatar: The avatar first smashed itself through 1st company Terminators and had loads of heavy weapons fire directed at it. Even then Calgar barely managed to kill it, leaving him grievously wounded.

The problem is though that most of the 'haters' have never really bothered reading the 'story' in great detail. The tale has simply been boiled down to 'Calgar kills an Avatar'.

Kahadras

Caiphas Cain
28-11-2009, 02:24
I always wonder, as an eldar player, how this passage gets so much hate, but one SM chapter, 1000 marines, manages to single-handedly wipe out an ENTIRE CRAFTWORLD, and no one bats an eye. Seriously, that is the way more outrageous distortion. An entire craftworld? And it wasn't some weird circumstance, but a pretty straight up fight? Please.

I'm sure you allready knew this, but that craftworld was pretty much a short bus.

rabblerouser
28-11-2009, 02:30
Calgar = chuck norris of 40k

Kriegfreak
28-11-2009, 02:36
he falcon punched it in the dice.

Exactly my thoughts.

pazshadow
28-11-2009, 02:45
I am amazed people have such a hard time reading the space marine book. It is Ultramarines with a flavouring of other marines added in. The entire book is told from the ultramarine point of view, as people have said, a propaganda piece. like all of history, told through the distortion of blue power armor. Remember, the wolves, the DA, the BA and the BT get their own 'rahrah' codexes, but people have a problem with the most powerful chapter getting one? I'm just glad I got some rules for non-ultra marines in there.

Israfael
28-11-2009, 03:20
Also, you really do not have to read it, and I am not sure that you have provided anything positive to the discussion at all, and am not sure why you have bothered to sit in here and post in the first place.

I'm not sure anyone can add anything to such a useless, xeno tear thread.

You have managed to reanimate a horse that has been beaten beyond comprehension. Congratulations on that, brah.

I find - as is clearly the case here, that the majority of people never read the story. Because if they did, they'd know he was not only almost killed in the battle, but he wasn't alone in said fight.

It's blatant Ultramarine hatred; nothing more. If it was anything other than that, people would be raging against the "Invaders" chapter owning a Craftworld; but no - it's "Calgar smacked my god in the face! QQ"..

I hate people who hate Ultramarines; I've started the new "trendy" hate party - get in on it now.

Elrond12
28-11-2009, 03:35
I would have to agree with Dark,the codex is very much smurf friendly.I happen to like the codex before this one.When will the Imperial Fist get a codex.They pretty much defended the Imperial palace on Terra:confused:

Writerski7
28-11-2009, 04:47
Not literally no, but I have just looked up the relevant passage (p.35 for those who are interested), and it does seem rather over the top, even for a piece of background, in my opinion.



Ultramarines have been GW's favoured Chapter for a long time, partly because they are the 'regular' Chapter, so are the easiest to depict, both in terms of core rules and army structure (the Black Legion fall into a similar category for Chaos).

I don't think it's going to change any time soon, if ever, for that reason, so I think you are probably stuck with it.



Nobody, but pulling off that sort of attack against a similar sized character, such as a Farseer, Autarch, or even a Phoenix Lord, would have been just as heroic, and a lot more plausible in my view.

I request a retraction of the statement 'ultramarines are a regular chapter'. The ORIGINAL Space Marines GW introduced were the *Gasp*
Crimson Fists


I get so tired of this textual vomit.

He defeated an Avatar with dual, master-crafted, POWER FISTS - he didn't smack it on the nose. He also almost died in the process.

How is that anymore absurd than any other factions codex? (LOL, Tyranid hive fleet owned with zero casualties Tau 'dex comes to mind..)

We get it; Ultramarines are big jerk-faces who get all the spotlight. Deal with it.

Xeno angst fuels me.

Agreed. IT was those annoying Power fists. Just for kicks we play-tested it, and 2/3 times (one on one) Calgar killed the Avatar because of his overpowered Fists and Titanic Might rule . . .


IAWTAP-- You consider the Avatar had just waded through the entire first company, and doubtless killed A LOT of them, and then was dueling with Calgar's 30 man honor guard while the big bad blue boss of McCragge circled him and attacked with gauntlets made in a demon forge for an exalted warrior of Chaos. I personally think the Avatar made a pretty good accounting of himself, actually.

I always wonder, as an eldar player, how this passage gets so much hate, but one SM chapter, 1000 marines, manages to single-handedly wipe out an ENTIRE CRAFTWORLD, and no one bats an eye. Seriously, that is the way more outrageous distortion. An entire craftworld? And it wasn't some weird circumstance, but a pretty straight up fight? Please.

People who base their descisions on a distant future pretty much sums up why . . . Farseers need a better focus on the now; Eldar wouldn't be a DYING race if they did.

AngryAngel
28-11-2009, 04:57
Everyone wants to hear stories in their books of victory. Though the issue is how OTT some stories are written. I play the Tau and the tau story of killing off hive ships with 0 casualties and the like is a bit much. As is most the ultramarine fluff. Hell I throw up in my mouth a little from reading the sillieness in the new wolf codex.

Granted my army of the DA, in the stories they win, they still need to work for it and its always at a high cost they get victory in the end. Not many tales in the guard book of flawless victory.

Though as long as they don't tell me the stories I don't much care.

Edit: These are all opinions, and are as valid as what anyone else thinks.

Reinholt
28-11-2009, 05:53
Actually, with how great Vulkan is, it might be stealth Salamanders propaganda.

Go green!

Dark_Templar
28-11-2009, 06:57
I'm not sure anyone can add anything to such a useless, xeno tear thread.

You have managed to reanimate a horse that has been beaten beyond comprehension. Congratulations on that, brah.

I find - as is clearly the case here, that the majority of people never read the story. Because if they did, they'd know he was not only almost killed in the battle, but he wasn't alone in said fight.

It's blatant Ultramarine hatred; nothing more. If it was anything other than that, people would be raging against the "Invaders" chapter owning a Craftworld; but no - it's "Calgar smacked my god in the face! QQ"..

I hate people who hate Ultramarines; I've started the new "trendy" hate party - get in on it now.

Hopefully you are not claiming that I am some xenos fanboy who hates ultramarines or space marines of any type, because that is obviously not the case.

I also apologise for "reanimating a dead horse". Sorry I am not completely awesome and was not around the last time somebody discussed this.

I was also under the impression that it was okay to ask people's thoughts on the approach of the codex in general. Obviously I was wrong.

But in the end, I am not going to be overly concerned with the opinion of somebody who uses the word "brah".

DT.

Griffindale
28-11-2009, 07:07
Actually the Calgar vs. Avatar story is pretty believable. The Eldar player charged into cover and rolled badly when they went simo. :p

Israfael
28-11-2009, 07:42
I also apologise for "reanimating a dead horse". Sorry I am not completely awesome and was not around the last time somebody discussed this.

At least you're aware of your failings. I respect that.


I was also under the impression that it was okay to ask people's thoughts on the approach of the codex in general. Obviously I was wrong.

Common misconception. Apology accepted.


But in the end, I am not going to be overly concerned with the opinion of somebody who uses the word "brah".

c[_] - The care cup appears to be empty, brah.

NightrawenII
28-11-2009, 09:50
since you ask what other crazy codex stories are out there, even though its not codex its still worth mentioning: vraks 3 - inquisitor rex vs ang'grath the big bad! the ultimate bloodthirster! the guy who has only been summoned twice in the past because it takes a hell of a lot to impress khorne enough that he will let his best warrior go help you

i cant hype this guy up enough he really is that good, or rather he's meant to be.......This is like the Avatar story. The Ang'grath was fighting squad of GK terminators+ captain(or grandmaster, Im not sure now:confused:) first and they give him boody nose. After killing them all, he met a Rex, Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, who is practically a space marine, equipped with force weapon and anti-daemon stuff. Ang'grath give him bloody nose too, but he is banished. Long story in short.

IAWTAP-- You consider the Avatar had just waded through the entire first company, and doubtless killed A LOT of them, and then was dueling with Calgar's 30 man honor guard while the big bad blue boss of McCragge circled him and attacked with gauntlets made in a demon forge for an exalted warrior of Chaos. I personally think the Avatar made a pretty good accounting of himself, actually.The description is there to blame: "Terminators set upon the Avatar with power fist and thunder hammer, but their blows did little than staggered it. Heavy weapons of all kind were brought to bear on the Avatars glowing molten form, yet their fury did little save to anger the creature futher." Also no Honour Guard.

I always wonder, as an eldar player, how this passage gets so much hate, but one SM chapter, 1000 marines, manages to single-handedly wipe out an ENTIRE CRAFTWORLD, and no one bats an eye. Seriously, that is the way more outrageous distortion. An entire craftworld? And it wasn't some weird circumstance, but a pretty straight up fight? Please.There isnt any futher description either of the Craftworld and battle, so we are left in the dark.

Kriegfreak
28-11-2009, 10:09
Clearly the one chosen to be the vessel for the avatar was a guardian, mixed into a group of dire avengers by mistake. The Farseer's faces were red after that one. It is remembered in dance by the harlequins, one wearing the ceremonial giant over-sized blue mittens walks up and slays the one who douses himself in gasoline and lights the match. This fight also clearly ends the debate over which is the better color, blue or red.

Mort
28-11-2009, 10:10
When will the Imperial Fist get a codex.They pretty much defended the Imperial palace on Terra:confused:

And that they did it great, really...one Primarch dead, Big E crippled, Terra in Ruins... :D

On topic:
Of course its propaganda, everybody expects propaganda from his/her codex book, because if you play an army you dont want to hear how said army defeated "normal" enemies, you want to read epic, over the top, stories.

I really dont get why people hate the UMs so much, just because their chapter master did what a chapter master is supposed to do.

Oh, and there are other thing in other codices worth mentioning as "over-the-top"

My top 3:(ascending order)

-Ork ramming a titans head with his bike and destroying the titan

-Hive Fleet taken out by the Tau WITHOUT LOOSING A SINGLE TAU

-Necrons building a "Death Star"

t-tauri
28-11-2009, 10:35
Thread closed.