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Bassik
28-11-2009, 12:00
Now we've had some time to adjust, what does everyone think about the new Skavenlist? Is it hard? Does it suck? Open to abuse? Etc.

In my opinion, it's quite good, maybe ranking with lizardmen and dark elves. The abusing is quite tricky, because everything except the rare choices is so fragile.
The rare choices seem a bit off, tho. In my experience, the doomwheel is vastly undercosted, while the monster is equally overpriced. I bet you'd see more lists with two doomwheels then with a doomwheel and abomination. I'll keep on using the monster anyway, because he is awesome, and when fighting against an army that sucks at shooting (I haven't had the oportunity yet), it should be very horrible to stop.

The most terrible list I have done so far was in a 1k game against dwarves. Not fearing any magic whatsoever, and having my heroes outclassed anyway, I went for the bare minimum of a 15 point engineer as my general, then fill it up with clanrats, slaves, the monster, and censer bearers.
The battle was extremely bloody, with both sides having virtually nothing left at the end of the game. Most fun I had with the game in a long time!

I am not that good (horrible) at the competetive environment, tho, so I'd realy like to hear about that! Tell me everything, from funny anecdotes, to horrible things you've done, and your opinion about the whole army!

*squeek*

Kievien
28-11-2009, 13:09
Untill now I'm quite happy with it. It contains the option to build competative builds without losing out on potential fun. On top of that I'm just glad this isn't a powerhouse book.

Grtz. Kiev

Zarroc
28-11-2009, 13:18
Its an awesome book, and ill be using the duel doom wheels lol, with a plague furnace, thats 3 toughness 6 things for the enemy to kill lol

As for the magic items, they blow, only a few good ones, and anything over 3000 points, youd have trouble getting well equip chars

Few things that are a let down, is plague monks not getting poisoned attacks, i wanted to see the cauldron of a thousand poxes, plague censer bearers should be an upgrade to plague monk units and not use up a specail spot on there own, and PWG as specail suck and assassins should of been made like the dark elves one, and not take up a hero spot, they will never be used........

Other then that like the list as it allows me to build a rather competive all comers list easy and still maintain a horde aspect to the army

Vermin-thing
28-11-2009, 13:33
My one grip is that Skrolk, and Ikit claw are level 3. They seem overpriced.

I must admit the Clan pestilence list is very nasty. :evilgrin:

The plague priest is the best character in the book, hands down.

PARTYCHICORITA
28-11-2009, 14:03
If ur opponent takes the storm banner, double abomination and cencers become almost unstoppable. I have face it twice and if the banner lasts for 2 full turns the darn things will get to combat pretty much unharmed.

The book seems pretty nice, a shame some units (rat ogres for example) are still not worth taking.

OldMan
28-11-2009, 14:10
I am quite worried. I haven't played yet ( my games are really rare, I wouldn't waste so much time on this forum if it was otherwise, would I? :D ), but i am very worried.

My regular opponent plays high elfs, and i really can't see any counter to rats in elfs' list.
The fragile high elf troopers are outnumbered, outshooted, and with help of furnace, abomination, doomwheel and censer berers totally screwed in close combat.
Star dragon is the only unit to be feared, but this is where doomweel, WLC, jezzails, storm banner, and spell from lore of ruin come in. Furnace can also look after itself.

Any experience in skaven vs High Ef battles?

Xzazzarai
28-11-2009, 14:18
The HPA, Doomwheel and the stormbanner are pretty much OT.

The rest is fine.

Though, as a Dark Elf player, I have to recon that most armies have some OT-stuff...

narrativium
28-11-2009, 14:26
The HPA, Doomwheel and the stormbanner are pretty much OT.
OT = Off-Topic?

Vermin-thing
28-11-2009, 14:50
OT = Off-Topic?

OTT? ;) I think that's what Xzazzarai means. 99% sure.

Sylass
28-11-2009, 15:42
I did not play a game with/against Skaven yet, so I can only judge by what I read in the armybook. :)

I'm not going to say something about the units or special rules, cause I think can't really judge that without a few proper games.

However, the one thing I'm really worried about is the tendency to go for more and more special rules. It seems that every new army gets a few more special rules than the last one.

While this may be needed to devide the armies from each other and point out strenghts and weaknesses (is it really the only way to do this?), I fear the mass of special rules may slow down the game.

Can you really remember all these rules as a player? How often will your opponent (who does not play a alot vs Skaven) have to ask about a unit's rules?

wizbix
28-11-2009, 16:32
Too many rats! :)

Agoz
28-11-2009, 17:11
I did not play a game with/against Skaven yet, so I can only judge by what I read in the armybook. :)

I'm not going to say something about the units or special rules, cause I think can't really judge that without a few proper games.

However, the one thing I'm really worried about is the tendency to go for more and more special rules. It seems that every new army gets a few more special rules than the last one.

While this may be needed to devide the armies from each other and point out strenghts and weaknesses (is it really the only way to do this?), I fear the mass of special rules may slow down the game.

Can you really remember all these rules as a player? How often will your opponent (who does not play a alot vs Skaven) have to ask about a unit's rules?

Yep, I can remember them, quite easily in fact.

Xzazzarai
28-11-2009, 17:15
OTT? ;) I think that's what Xzazzarai means. 99% sure.

And you are no less than 100% correct!

Thanks for filling me in! :)

yorch
28-11-2009, 17:52
Well... I don't like it...



I mean, it's not a really bad book, but it's poorly written and has serius balance issues, and yes, it has a lot of space for abusive lists. I don't like that, because I already have problems with my daemons (because I try to play soft lists, but always new players think about flamers+hounds+horrors...)

Poorly written:
If you take a look at the Q&A section it's totally clear that it's poorly written. Whether that is because it's prepared or not for 8 ed it's not an excuse. There are a lot of questions that need to be explained and it's really annoying.



Internal balance issues:

Rare units:
-HPA and Doomwheels are clearly underpriced... yes, all last armies have underpriced units, but that's not an excuse. They should solve the problem once and for all.
-WLC... come on... did it had to be so much unpredictable?...


Special units:
In special units is where the biggest balance issues are. Why would you use another unit that are not plague censers? They are awfully underpriced. A charge of this guys is as terrible as blood knights... but they cost 110 points per unit... come on...

The remaining special units are not bad, but they are totally eclipsed by the plague censers. That is a serious balance issue, and gives a lot of space for powergaming (taking 4 plague censer units, 2 doomwheels, a lot of magic and a lots of slaves can be horrible).

Saying that not all special units are bad is a lie, though. Poisoned wind globadiers ARE bad. In 6th ed nearly anyone used them. If they were used it was because of the minimum unit size of 2. Now the minimum unit size as increased, they can only shoot against friedly slaves or his own unit in combat and they are special... Guess what... they won't be seen the tabletop too often... (and at that daunting price tag...). Plus, if you want to kill monsters, doomwheels are better :D



Core:
Now you can field slaves or giant rat packs as core... You don't even need to field clanrats... (and the only fluffy justification to this is using a pestilens army, but since plague monks are special...). I'm not asking for the mainstay rule (which I find fluffy nonetheless), but slaves and minimun size rat packs should not count as core units.
Stormvermin continue to be a unit without purpose in the army (I'm not saying they are bad as a unit). They are not that expensive points wise, but have no place in the skaven army. Paying nearly the double point cost of a clanrat for +1HA, +1I and +1AS it's just too much if you want them to act defensively, and offensively they really can't beat nearly any unit in the game with security. So much for the "elite warriors". They needed S4 (with a point increase of course) or special rules when joined by a warlord. Both changeswould fit the fluff and will make them more useful. I will use them because the minis are awesome and I always play warlord clans, and with the palanquin for the warlord it would be an awesome looking unit... but well...



Characters:
-Vermin lord... Just too weak, and using it means a -1Ld for yout army. It's like a watered down greater daemon. It should be 550 points, but get T6 and give Ld7 to smaller rats. Greater daemons in DoC are not broken as they are, what makes them broken is the magic item selection (I know them really well as I play them). But well, that's just my opinion.

-I for one think that grey seers should have Ld7 (it's fluffy), but warlords should be able to get a better item selection... it's worse now than in 6th. At least the new mounts are useful. I will be using a warlord anyway, Queek mini is just too awesome.

-Assasins... Yes, they are MUCH better points wise than in 6th ed, but still, what an assasin needs is to kill, not to survive. Any weapon combination makes them real assasins... they are still good with warpstone stars, but I don't think that's the point. I don't think they should be like DE assasins, which are far too good, but well, a guy that for 150 points only does 3 S4 AP attacks, non poisoned, even with D3 wounds just is not worth its point cost (assasin+weeping blade)... I will use them the same as before... warpstone stars and shoot big things


Magic items:
The list is somewhat lacking. It's a good list, but I miss storm daemon and the bracelets of power too much. Magic is just ok. Very powerful but without good support arcane items.



Anyway, I have to say you can still do pretty decent and fluffy lists (as in 6th ed) and the 0.5 point per spear will do my clanrats more versatile (they will all carry spears now). If you forget about censers, rat ogres have become usable, with better damage output, immunity to panic and reduced point cost and the loss of cheap skirmishing units is compensated by the improvement of swarms and cheaper giant rat packs.

To sum it up... as I said, it's not that bad if you play fair, but it's open to abusive lists, and THAT is really BAD.

Foegnasher
28-11-2009, 18:05
I am quite worried. I haven't played yet ( my games are really rare, I wouldn't waste so much time on this forum if it was otherwise, would I? :D ), but i am very worried.

My regular opponent plays high elfs, and i really can't see any counter to rats in elfs' list.
The fragile high elf troopers are outnumbered, outshooted, and with help of furnace, abomination, doomwheel and censer berers totally screwed in close combat.
Star dragon is the only unit to be feared, but this is where doomweel, WLC, jezzails, storm banner, and spell from lore of ruin come in. Furnace can also look after itself.

Any experience in skaven vs High Ef battles?

i just crushed a high elf player last night.

stormbanner took care of his shooting for 2 turns. the HPA ate his firewizard and dragon, the pheonix gaurd put up a good fight but then i flanked them with clanrats adn a doomflayer. the white lions got vermintided and warplightninged. the lion chariot flanked a unit, but did not break it, so lost the following round and got ran down. Korhill miscast twice and blew his head off. end of gme i got 3 units of clanrats, 2 wizards, a hpa, 1/2 str censer bearers to his bolt thrower crew. and i got +700 bonus points for generals, banners, and table quarters.

so yeah. impact hits, flanks and T tests take care of the ASF elfs.

Petey
28-11-2009, 19:20
i quite like it, except for the plague units

AtmaTheWanderer
28-11-2009, 19:30
I'll agree to most points raised here. The doomwheel is awesome, fluffy, and fun, but it's also *waaaaaaay* undercosted for it's abilities. The thing pretty much savages anything it touches. I got rid of my 2nd one to a friend because I primarily run casual, fun games, and I just couldn't run double-doomwheel, people would stop wanting to play the list.

Skaven are potent, but not broken. I've had one game against Chaos where we wiped each other out almost to the man, and one game against HE where I massacre'd him. The High Elves are woefully underprepared for the skaven threat, the sheer volume of impact hits we have now almost completely negates their army.

Though, I will say it's nice to see High Elf players actually have to think tactically as opposed to not caring who gets the charge.

Thunderfist
28-11-2009, 20:20
In my opinion, it's quite good, maybe ranking with lizardmen and dark elves. The abusing is quite tricky, because everything except the rare choices is so fragile.
The rare choices seem a bit off, tho. In my experience, the doomwheel is vastly undercosted, while the monster is equally overpriced. I bet you'd see more lists with two doomwheels then with a doomwheel and abomination. I'll keep on using the monster anyway, because he is awesome, and when fighting against an army that sucks at shooting (I haven't had the oportunity yet), it should be very horrible to stop.

If you think the Abomination is overpriced for what it does (hello 3d6 s6 autohits + I test on all in base contact on the charge) then I have no idea what you expect from a 235pts monster.

Sure, the doomwheel is even more undercosted, but it fills a different role than the Abomination.

Oh, by the way. In the doomwheel rules it says "Each warp lightning bolt has an 18" range and will strike the nearest unit (friend or foe), regardless of terrain or line of sight. Roll for each bolt separately, measuring from the doomwheels base"

At first I thought that they were talking about the artillery dice roll, but later in the rules it says you only roll once for all bolts that phase.

So, do you need to roll to hit? As it says nothing on how to treat the bolts (long range, move and fire etc) and later says that it "hits" I find it unlikely that you need to roll to hit.
So, what do they mean with "Roll for each bolt separately, measuring from the doomwheels base"? Do they mean to wound and stuff?

I find the sentence to be confusing.
But if you don't roll to hit, isn't it ridiculously overpowered?

decker_cky
28-11-2009, 22:47
Roll each bolt separately is the to wound. If you destroy a unit, you shoot at the next closest unit for the next bolt (or if you remove a model and another unit becomes closer).

It's really good against monsters, against most anything else, not so much.

Tenken
28-11-2009, 23:10
Other than the storm banner I have no gripes with the book. I played an opponent in a mega battle and he had a furnace, HPA and doomwheel, but no stormbanner. I didn't have many troubles. His doomwheel spent like half the game shooting his own stuff and his HPA ran like a scared little girl form my skinks after I caused 3 wounds on 1 round of shooting, the plague furnace got in combat with my temple guard and only did about 2 wounds a round.

I could see the stormbanner being a total game breaker though, it effectively makes ranged and flying troops useless until you kill it, and if it's in an unbreakable unit that's gunna be hard. Other than that I don't see any problems in the skaven book that can't be dealt with, especially with their penchant for blowing themselves up.

Lord Malorne
28-11-2009, 23:15
What is HPA?

Lord Malorneken

Kievien
28-11-2009, 23:25
What is HPA?

Lord Malorneken

HellPit Abomination, my friend!

Grtz. Kiev

Nicha11
29-11-2009, 02:32
It's a great book thats poorly written.

Likes: Most units competitive (even if poor choices), really keeps Skaveny theme.

Dislikes: Pretty easy to break the list, 6 units of slaves 2 HPA's A Screaming bell and furnace in big blocks.

Dead Man Walking
29-11-2009, 04:44
The HPA is far over the top. Even the competetive players I have met who field it agree it is far too powerful. Two things that make it over the top is that it can (and usually does) 3d6 str 6 hits, it pulled off 12 str 6 hits on my steggie and turned it into paste. The other is that when it dies it has a chance to get back up with d6 wounds. Nothing I have seen in WH or WH40k ever got up with more than one wound.

I can understand d6+3 or 2d6 attacks but 3d6 is crazy insane with str 6 hits. Its pretty much a train barreling across the table, oh and you can have 2 of them.

Vilicate
29-11-2009, 05:02
Just FYI, cause I've seen it twice on here, you guys do know that the result on the HPA that gives it 3d6 possible hits is ATTACKS, right? It gets 3d6 attacks, which still have to roll to hit on it's WS. I guess it can do 3d6 hits if it gets the charge and the 2d6 hits when it flops...but that's fairly improbable. Its still probably undercosted for what it does though; 3d6" with nice combat stats is pretty rough.

I think that people have to remember that the doomwheel, plague censor bearers, and warmachines while extremely hitty, also have the chance to seriously backfire on your army and destroy your units as well. I'm fine with the risk, because it's fun when my stuff blows it's top, and also it can be satisfying to your opponent, who doesn't have to divert reasources to destroying the threat. In addition, when their stuff misfires, it's not only just destroying the machine, it's usually taking out part your army as well.

My main beef with the book so far is that they really made some of the rules ambigious. Other than that, it's okay, nearer to the top than the bottom, and has a good place amongst Lizards and Warriors.

Lord Inquisitor
29-11-2009, 05:34
I find that one of the big issues with the HPA is that it inflicts automatic hits. It's utterly obscene in this respect. It can eat a 600pt+ greater daemon without breaking a sweat (and we know daemons are overpowered, eh?).

I found playing the HPA for the first time quite an eye-opener.

"Ok, I roll an "avalanche of flesh" result. Everyone in base contact takes a S6 hit unless they pass an initiative test.
"Fair enough." (Much dice rolling)
"...And now it inflicts 2D6 automatic S6 hits."
"What?"
"2D6 S6 hits."
"Automatic hits? Are you sure?
"That's what it says."
"Ouch."

Automatic hits are such a problem because they circumvent all defences that reduce the chance of hitting (much the same reason that things like hellblasters used to be so annoying and why they were changed to a BS weapon). They also make the attack very reliable as there is a smaller distributions as there's only one roll.

The other facets that make it vicious is the 360 charge arc (extremely annoying) and regenerate. If you have flaming shooting, I can see that it shouldn't be too difficult to kill, but if you have to engage it, I can't image any easy way to do it with an equal amount of points.

But I will echo a comment earlier in the thread that there is a trend, both with 40K and Fantasy, for increasingly complex army books with more and more special rules that really don't do much other than complicate the game. Does the HPA really need all those rules? You could give it 3D6 attacks and movement and remove the Shambling Horror, Special Combat Attacks, Too Horrible to Die rules and it would still represent the concept perfectly well without slowing the game down. Fantasy (and 40K) seem to be losing any elegance these systems once had under a crushing weight of exceptions and special rules. It's not a "I can't remember the rules" complaint, more a "why do I have to? what does it add to the tactics of the game? is it absolutely required to represent the character of the unit or army?"

Tenken
29-11-2009, 05:55
I found playing the HPA for the first time quite an eye-opener.

"Ok, I roll an "avalanche of flesh" result. Everyone in base contact takes a S6 hit unless they pass an initiative test.
"Fair enough." (Much dice rolling)
"...And now it inflicts 2D6 automatic S6 hits."
"What?"
"2D6 S6 hits."
"Automatic hits? Are you sure?
"That's what it says."
"Ouch."

Yeah avalanche of flesh is pretty OTT. If making init tests or dying (practically that's what we're talking about) wasn't bad enough they had to spoon on 2d6 auto str 6 hits with it? I don't even want my saurus within 20" of that thing just because of that nonsense. The other results don't see to be as stupidly OTT, but there seems to be a trend toward making the game monsterhammer. Honestly look back a bit, we have stegadon lists, double stank and waralter (not actually monsters per se, but close enough), dragon lord and double hydra lists, and it goes on. What happened to RNF troops? I can appreciate some armies have monster heavy lists from a fluff perspective, but everything needs one now?

Captain Cortez
29-11-2009, 07:36
I like the new Skaven book but I don't love it. Some of the wording in the book is really weird like how DoomFlayers say they have an armor 3+ in the front but not saying its from shooting or close combat?

I play with two HPA's. In one game my HPA came back alive twice? Priceless moment on my opponents face. Everyone seems so afraid of it they try to ignore it so basicely while your whole army is dead the HPA is still alive.

Assasins are useless and what happened to my Gutter Runners?

Vermin-thing
29-11-2009, 09:27
Wile the HPA might seem under priced, it still has some major drawbacks.

1. If you combo charage with it, it will get whooped.
2. feed is a meh at best result.
3. if you roll triples, it's useless for a turn, and can possibly get wounded.
4. the WBB only works if it was not hit by any flaming attacks.
5. fails vs R&F if you get the feed result.
6. unpredictable movement in a straight line.

It's just as under priced as the hydra.

GuyLeCheval
29-11-2009, 10:44
Wile the HPA might seem under priced, it still has some major drawbacks.

1. If you combo charage with it, it will get whooped.
2. feed is a meh at best result.
3. if you roll triples, it's useless for a turn, and can possibly get wounded.
4. the WBB only works if it was not hit by any flaming attacks.
5. fails vs R&F if you get the feed result.
6. unpredictable movement in a straight line.

It's just as under priced as the hydra.

Indeed. I agree it's strong, but this is just the first month's whining from players who get slaughtered by the more powerful things in the book because they don't know how to deal with them. Which is not shameful, it's just natural. You can't blame players for not knowing every detail of a new army they play against.

If we discuss this in about a half year, nearly everyone will say: 'Yes it's strong, but it has it's drawbacks, and anyone who knows those, can fry it when it happens.'

Alathir
29-11-2009, 10:49
Overall, I quite like the Skaven book, I would definitely call it one of the better of the new army books. Sure, there are some strangely priced options and the book is open to abuse but which book isn't?

It gets a thumbs up from me.

Bassik
29-11-2009, 11:12
Well, let me explain how I came to think of it as undercosted, in my first game with it I went against Dark Elves, who murdered it with magic and shooting, and the second game I went up against Dwarves, who nearly murdered it with a cannonshot, and then it charged a unit of Ironbreakers who had an ASF Thane in it. The Thane should have logically killed it, but I made like, 8 Regen saves untill my ratogres flanked and ate the unit, so the monster should have died already under normal circumstances.
Everybody in my group agrees the doomwheel is a much bigger and cheaper thread.

Storak
29-11-2009, 11:13
Wile the HPA might seem under priced, it still has some major drawbacks.

1. If you combo charage with it, it will get whooped.
2. feed is a meh at best result.
3. if you roll triples, it's useless for a turn, and can possibly get wounded.
4. the WBB only works if it was not hit by any flaming attacks.
5. fails vs R&F if you get the feed result.
6. unpredictable movement in a straight line.

It's just as under priced as the hydra.

just as under priced as the hydra?

power creep is a good thing, according to you?

"feed" is NOT a "meh" result. it is in addition to impact hits. and it kills chars, heavy cavalry and ogre type units. without being completely useless against other units. just compare this to the giant attacks..

the abomination eats giants for breakfast. it is simply better, in every regard. the "disadvantages" are a joke, compared with the advantages that come with it. (for example 360 charge arc..)

---------------------

the abomination also is a good example, for what is seriously wrong with the Skaven book. the rules are horrible and full of errors. why is it possible that the abomination gets a strength increase, when the majority of attacks states specifically that they are Strength 6? too many rules, too complicated rules.

why is "warpstone weapon" not an entry at the top of most weapons, but always hidden among flavour text or random rules? this is horrible game design!

i really really hope, that this is not how 8th edition will be like.

Storak
29-11-2009, 11:16
Well, let me explain how I came to think of it as undercosted, in my first game with it I went against Dark Elves, who murdered it with magic and shooting, and the second game I went up against Dwarves, who nearly murdered it with a cannonshot, and then it charged a unit of Ironbreakers who had an ASF Thane in it. The Thane should have logically killed it, but I made like, 8 Regen saves untill my ratogres flanked and ate the unit, so the monster should have died already under normal circumstances.
Everybody in my group agrees the doomwheel is a much bigger and cheaper thread.

so HPA is overpowered, but the DW is better? does this sound like good news to you?

most things that "nearly" killed the regenerating HPA would have easily killed one of those old monsters without the ability.

Vermin-thing
29-11-2009, 11:42
just as under priced as the hydra?

power creep is a good thing, according to you?

"feed" is NOT a "meh" result. it is in addition to impact hits. and it kills chars, heavy cavalry and ogre type units. without being completely useless against other units. just compare this to the giant attacks..

the abomination eats giants for breakfast. it is simply better, in every regard. the "disadvantages" are a joke, compared with the advantages that come with it. (for example 360 charge arc..)

I hate power creep, but sadly we all have to live with it.

I made the mistake of deploying it on my flank, and it got stuck in with a stank for 6 turns. I rolled feed 5 times, and the stank had one wound left after turn six.

The HPA is for killing knights, and R&F. On turn four my opponent sent a unit of 5 knights in, and I rolled feed, they all died.

The hydra is 50 points less than it should be. Does that stop me from taking it? No, I would still use either of those monsters, but only one. Of all the things in WHFB, the monsters need a 0-1 restriction.

Clan moulder was underpowered in 6th, they needed this boost.

Lord Malorne
29-11-2009, 11:50
I hope people realise that the reason monsters are getting so out of hand in WFB is because they have a nice big price tag. I am torn, as the models needs to justify its cost () to be bought, it needs to be a good model and something I would field in the game (I am pretty sure the HPA has no model yet though) but to make them as powerful as I see them to be is just.... well it makes me shake my head.

Lord Malorneing

Vermin-thing
29-11-2009, 12:09
At least you can't put down a empty stand...

Throt had to work his fat ass off to "build" the HPA, so you sould to. ;)

Bassik
29-11-2009, 12:13
Ha, all I bought was the Corpse cart from the VC, for the rest I used spare bits I had lying around! :D

Dead Man Walking
29-11-2009, 14:16
Wile the HPA might seem under priced, it still has some major drawbacks.

1. If you combo charage with it, it will get whooped.
2. feed is a meh at best result.
3. if you roll triples, it's useless for a turn, and can possibly get wounded.
4. the WBB only works if it was not hit by any flaming attacks.
5. fails vs R&F if you get the feed result.
6. unpredictable movement in a straight line.

It's just as under priced as the hydra.

1. It does not get whooped when combo charged, it has a high toughness and regen, then it plows out 3d6 str 6 hits. You must be combo charging with Blood knights or something. I combo charged with two stegadons and still lost 2 stegadons.
3. Whats the chances of rolling tripples? Far less than doubles eh? Yes it can possibly get wounded but it can also possibly get stronger!
4. How often do you get hit by flaming attacks? I can't remember the last time I was hit by flaming attacks outside of the flame cannon or last edition salamander and I have played for 13 years. Some armies dont even have access to flaming attacks.
6. 3d6 averages 10" and in each game against the HPA it was in my deployment zone on turn 2, if placed on the flank it can wipe an entire army.

AlmightyNocturnus
29-11-2009, 23:56
My first reaction as a Ogre Kingdoms and Throgg Trolls army player was: "Wow, everything in this book multiplies wounds into double, d3, or d6 wounds! This army will eat my Ogres for lunch! I think Deathmaster Snicht could beat 2000 points of Ogres by himself!" I was kind of wondering why GW would do this. I came up with the following idea...GW realizes now that Star Dragons, Hydras, Greater Daemons and such are dominating the game and wanted some kind of counter for them in the Skaven list. Things like the Doomwheel, HPA, Weeping Blade/Fellblade (on any character, but especially an assassin), and even the Warplightning Cannon can make quick work of big monsters (as well as Ogres & Trolls). On a side note, I think thePLagueclaw Catapult looks interesting and has good rules (it neither ucks ass nor is OTT), but it will never be seen in any Skaven battles over the next 6 years because the Doomwheel and the HPA are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better. Too bad.

Almighty Nocturnus

Dead Man Walking
30-11-2009, 00:17
Its over the top stuff like the HPA which have caused me to stop playing fantasy, I'm just doing 40k. They have crazy stuff too but not so bad as fantasy.

Vermin-thing
30-11-2009, 01:29
@ Dead Man Walking: You misunderstand, I said that if you combo charge with the HPA it will get whooped because it affects friends and foe. Who's the enemy going to attack? A t5 6W monster or a bunch of clanrats?

I'd think of it as a train, which will smash anything in its way or just derail.

Okay here's a new house rule:

Regardless of the result of the attack, the HPA attacks ALL units in base contact, friend or foe! This doesn't apply to the impact hits.

TombKing101
30-11-2009, 01:42
If the hpa is as rediculous as it sounds, then I think thats a pretty good rule.

warhawk95
30-11-2009, 01:52
i think the new skaven list has removed some of the horde aspect to it and made quite a reliable list. think of all the unbreakable units they can have and how easy ld 10 is now with grey seer being ld 7. i dont forsee clanrats ever being taken with slaves serving the same role for much less. the hpa and doomwheel are also underpriced and censors are amazing. is the stormbanner is changed in the Q&A then i think the list becomes much easier, because the list is very vunerable to shooting. if that isnt changed, then i forsee these guys being right up their in powerlevel for cheeseout lists and will probably be able to fight back the big 3. still pretty early though so well see how it all turns out.

Dead Man Walking
30-11-2009, 02:13
@ Dead Man Walking: You misunderstand, I said that if you combo charge with the HPA it will get whooped because it affects friends and foe. Who's the enemy going to attack? A t5 6W monster or a bunch of clanrats?

I'd think of it as a train, which will smash anything in its way or just derail.

Okay here's a new house rule:

Regardless of the result of the attack, the HPA attacks ALL units in base contact, friend or foe! This doesn't apply to the impact hits.

Good point, I agree that only a ***** would combo charge with a HPA. Since it doesnt move in random directions chances are your not going to have it accidently run into a fight you dont want it to, so your train comment would only be valid if train tracks could only be found inside mega-malls during christmas.

Yes it attacks everything, but since your not going to combo charge with it then it is still broken and not balanced. It would be different if it had to combo charge everything it could. But since no one is that dumb its just going to spend the game raping everything it runs into while the skaven stand back and snicker.

Zarroc
30-11-2009, 02:23
Wow, HPA and Doom wheels are powerful, didnt see that coming :rolleyes: i think by now, we should expect units like this in all the new army books lol

Oh you can still combo charge, just dont put it in based contact with your units, as for the enemy attacking the weaker unit and getting combat res up, odds are you would more then likely still win the combats and auto break majority of enemys anyways

Foegnasher
30-11-2009, 02:24
i think the new skaven list has removed some of the horde aspect to it and made quite a reliable list.

what? the list was hordy and reliable BEFORE. you never played against the wall of LD 10 w/ rerolls before?




is the stormbanner is changed in the Q&A then i think the list becomes much easier, because the list is very vunerable to shooting..

only the big, expendive stuff. if the players realize that if they take just one or two expensive theings, and still fill out with the horde, it wont matter how much they shoot, something is going to get to them.



if that isnt changed, then i forsee these guys being right up their in powerlevel for cheeseout lists and will probably be able to fight back the big 3. still pretty early though so well see how it all turns out.

i agree the list is abuseable. (two hpas, two doomwheels, two plague furnace etc..) but those guys will find thier rock defeated by paper (dwawrf gunlines, magicy elfs with lore of fire, flying stuff to make teh plague furnace chase it) and then it wont be so bad.


i dont forsee clanrats ever being taken with slaves serving the same role for much less.

you lost me here. how do a block of guys, with no banner, and ld 5 away from the general (at best), ws 2, and no armor, WHO EXPLODE if they lose combat, replace ws 3, 4+ ar save in h2h, ld 8 away from the genral, guys who can fight and bog down most anything outside of chaos knights?

the slaves are fodder. the clanrats are soldiers.

Darkspear
30-11-2009, 04:13
The skavenbook is too abusable. The rare choices are too good.

This is the same case as the DE book. Where DE players generally talks about dragon + 2 hydras combos in Warseer. Now we get to read about skaven abusing their doomwheels and HPA.

Seems like everybody just want to win and don't mind losing their friends these days.

SlaaneshSlave
30-11-2009, 05:04
Seems like everybody just want to win and don't mind losing their friends these days.
Is that, maybe, a little premature? How many 2 HPA armies have you seen in the month the book has been out? Enough to qualify as everybody?

On a more general note... HPA is really good, but it isn't autowin from my experience. I think those that have played with it are starting to agree that Censer Bearers are better point for point.

The army with 2 HPA's, 4 units of censers, & vermin lord could really the Ardboys list. "I dare you to shoot at the Vermin Lord."

Now, just because I thought of this list does not mean anyone will actually play it. Or that most will. Or that it won't have downsides of its own.

Lord Solar Plexus
30-11-2009, 09:38
I think it is a very decent book. I've only fought against them once so my experience is limited. What I thought really stood out were PCB's. Ignoring armour is a killer, regardless of anything else. The Doomwheel my knights ran down after getting of a flank charge, although that might have been a bit lucky. There also was a unit with a small bell that replaced I believe 15 models in a unit of Plague Monks I think. This unit was pretty tough too, as it would nearly always outnumber me, had an additional +1 CR, lots of ranks, and lots of attacks to boot. Seeing as this was my first experience against them, I don't think it cannot be handled.

Darkspear
30-11-2009, 09:49
Is that, maybe, a little premature? How many 2 HPA armies have you seen in the month the book has been out? Enough to qualify as everybody?


Not only 2 HPA armies, 2 doomwheel armies are also included. Personally i have come across about 10 army lists in the internet with either 2 HPA, 2 DW or 1 each, and only 2 or 3 lists that do not have this combination.

Nevertheless I have been reading some stuff in the tactics forum. I hope I can turn the tide next time.

Poseidal
30-11-2009, 09:55
The abomination was really bad news in all my games against it. I thought I could magic it to death but a grey seer and 2 level 2 and a healthy dose of dispel scrolls meant it managed to get into combat each game. It managed to hold against a combo charge of warriors and knights too, stubborn was the killer on top of it's abilities.

ZamOne
30-11-2009, 10:32
I dunno about you guys, but the new clanrat plastics are inspiring me to make a redwall army :)

warhawk95
30-11-2009, 10:50
what? the list was hordy and reliable BEFORE. you never played against the wall of LD 10 w/ rerolls before?.

I was more refering to the amount of unbreakable units they could have, my bad wasnt quite clear enough here, yes ive faced the massive horde with a warlord. also with the amount of expensive things like HPA, plague furnace, bell i think we wont be seeing as many horde armies like before. granted there will be some and they will still be popular, but the option to not have 200 plus troops is now viable and much more likely to occur.



only the big, expendive stuff. if the players realize that if they take just one or two expensive theings, and still fill out with the horde, it wont matter how much they shoot, something is going to get to them.

i agree here, but still that big expensive stuff is what is used by most armies to take down HPA making one of their best units much more likely to see combat.


i agree the list is abuseable. (two hpas, two doomwheels, two plague furnace etc..) but those guys will find thier rock defeated by paper (dwawrf gunlines, magicy elfs with lore of fire, flying stuff to make teh plague furnace chase it) and then it wont be so bad.

i wouldnt count on magic being so solid because if they could easily pack 4 scrolls, and with stormbanner shooting isnt as reliable, but i agree there are some pretty obvious weaknesses, frenzy being the big one and eventually a gun line or magic heavy army will get some stuff through, enough to take out the big guys hopefully.


you lost me here. how do a block of guys, with no banner, and ld 5 away from the general (at best), ws 2, and no armor, WHO EXPLODE if they lose combat, replace ws 3, 4+ ar save in h2h, ld 8 away from the genral, guys who can fight and bog down most anything outside of chaos knights?

the slaves are fodder. the clanrats are soldiers.

with priests being so good and giant rats being viable you dont really need them in a tourney type army. 2 furnaces, 2 units of censors, 2 HPA, bell (probaly clan rats here) and then slaves to use to stop baiting. IMO this will be a popular list and has been discussed before, should have enough for stormbanner BSB it will be pretty powerful list. its not that i dont think clanrats arent good its just i dont think youll see them that much, probably shouldnt have said at all, but not as much (mainstay rule loss will probably be another reason, but i think giant rats being good will help out too.)

Stumpy
30-11-2009, 10:51
I definately dislike the book, and I'm not one of the people who cry cheese with a book release (except with Daemons, after flicking through that one was *******' obvious).
I don't mind things other than clanrats counting to minimum core- but slaves? I feel like someone just forgot to put that exception in.
Plague censer bearers- don't know what the deal was here. They were good last edition and no-one argued it. Vulnerable to magic, had to be bought with plague monks, baitable but powerful. Now they're stupid- I can't think of any other unit that could charge 20 chaos warriors in the front and win on average for under 100 points (96 points for 6 of them). Sure they're frenzied, but points-wise they aren't worth baiting.
The hell pit abomination is alright fluff-wise, however the 360 charge and ability to get up again are major problems. Even releasing rat swarms could be nuts, as they are able to charge in your next turn. The hittiness would be ok if you could try and outmanouver it.
The doomwheel is problematic in that it is a powerful, terror-causing, auto-hitting warp-lightning cannon.
The stormbanner will clearly was not intended to go for the whole game. Unless the designer only ever uses skaven, who don't have fliers and doesn't see the problem in rendering some of the enemy's units worthless for no effort.
Skaven in 6th were the death of enemy ranked infantry- or at least that was what I found and my skaven-using friend agreed. They could cause repeated panic tests, tie units up with slaves (most normal infantry can't break slaves alone), outmanouver and thus flank, use warp-lightning, plague, ratling guns and so on. Now they've become even better at it (no partials being a biggie, tunneling night runners, new availability to stubborn/unbreakable, the frankly broken doomrocket). Not only are they the doom of infantry, they themselves don't have to field them.
RANT OVER

...And now onto hard evidence. The book is too complicated and overloaded with special rules. There are 15 charts of various origin (mostly misfire tables) compared to the one or two that most armies have. In addition, there are 60 skaven (ie non-rulebook) special rules. That is almost (or actually IS) triple dwarves, empire, vampires or lizardmen.

Vermin-thing
30-11-2009, 11:24
As long as it's not a DoC mirror I'm happy.

Arjuna
30-11-2009, 11:32
...And now onto hard evidence. The book is too complicated and overloaded with special rules. There are 15 charts of various origin (mostly misfire tables) compared to the one or two that most armies have. In addition, there are 60 skaven (ie non-rulebook) special rules. That is almost (or actually IS) triple dwarves, empire, vampires or lizardmen.

LOL play something like chinese checkers if warhammer is too hard/complicated for you. Of course if you find chinese checkers a bit too taxing because there are more than two deployment zones you can always ramp down to regular checkers.

Warhammer as a hobby is for the long haul. Army books and models cycle in and out. I really think people need to stop their complaining and pick a paintbrush or some dice. If you cannot deal with change, ambiguous rules and armies that are not exactly balanced, then warhammer is just not the game for you. No one is making thier living playing this game on a tournament circuit. None of the problems people complain about are less than ten years old so you really have no excuse if you are disappointed with GW products.

Perhaps everyone that really enjoys warhammer should buy and play demons exclusively until we drive all the weak whiny red haired step children away from the game.

yorch
30-11-2009, 11:39
If finally storm banner is FAQd and it's one use only, I don't understand why so much complaining... seriously. It was more powerful in the last ed. The only complain that has any logic is that it can be now be used by plague monks and stormvermin, but otherwise is the same banner, but less powerful and cheaper than the 6th ed storm banner. I used it back then and I am going to use it know. No one complained in 6th, and hell I seriously hope no one complains this time, because I'll star an arguing if it's needed.

The really "broken" things in the book are HPA, Doomwheels and plague censer bearers and core slaves. That's it. The other things are fine.

Furnaces and Bells are not broken, and units carrying them go from 500 points (furnace) to 600 - 700 points for the bell. Seriously, units with that point cost ought to be really powerful and or have good habilities, because they are deathstars point's wise. For that amount of points a lot of armies can field deathstars as good as these ones, but usually more manouverable and/or less prone to flank charging. The problem is not using these deathstars, but that you can field a lot of skavenslaves units to overcome that huge point sink.

A FAQ with things like this will solve a lot of problems (not all, but well):

-Storm banner: One use only.
-Slaves do not count as core
-Units of giant rat packs with less than 20 models do not count as core
-Doomwheel has to roll to hit for it's warp lightining bolts
-All HPA attacks affect friend or foe
-Plague censer bearers cannot have to be fielded at the start of the game in the range of 6" of a plague monk unit

yorch
30-11-2009, 11:44
LOL play something like chinese checkers if warhammer is too hard/complicated for you. Of course if you find chinese checkers a bit too taxing because there are more than two deployment zones you can always ramp down to regular checkers.

Warhammer as a hobby is for the long haul. Army books and models cycle in and out. I really think people need to stop their complaining and pick a paintbrush or some dice. If you cannot deal with change, ambiguous rules and armies that are not exactly balanced, then warhammer is just not the game for you. No one is making thier living playing this game on a tournament circuit. None of the problems people complain about are less than ten years old so you really have no excuse if you are disappointed with GW products.

Perhaps everyone that really enjoys warhammer should buy and play demons exclusively until we drive all the weak whiny red haired step children away from the game.

I really think you should moderate that tone of yours. One of the thing is getting people off WHF is the complicated rules it has... not only for the sheer number of them, but for the big holes they have in their writen. Because there are a lot of holes in the rulebook and each army book it's becoming insulting, and books like this add salt to the wound. Getting games into the 2 hour range is getting increasingly difficult and not everyone has a lot of time to play, because we have a life outside the warhammer world (mainly because we have to pay our bills and all that)...

Plus, this is a game of little toy soldiers... no need for being so "grown up"

Dead Man Walking
30-11-2009, 12:59
Seems like everybody just want to win and don't mind losing their friends these days.

Thats right, people make killer lists so they can loose thier friends. :rolleyes: These kind of knee-jerk comments are more destructive to our hobby than all the WAAC players combined could ever be.

Sorry but its immature to assume that a competetive player is purposely trying to drive people away. Competetive players are good people too, they dont go around murdering people and syphoning gas off thier nieghbors vehicles so they can ride thier dirt bikes. Play who you like to play but lets cut out the asinine anti-competetive comments. In this day and age its far too easy to attribute evil characteristics to people you don't agree with and thats not helping the situation.

They may have a different way of playing the game but so long as they are playing the game, supporting the hobby and supporting the game shops then they are just as blessed as you to walk up to a table and sling dice.

fubukii
30-11-2009, 13:16
I think alot of people are theory hammering with the skaven book.

I have played skaven since 5th edition and have already got a goood amount of games under my belt with 7th ed rats.

In all the games i have played, honestly the HPA hasnt done much. Now i am a highly competitive player and so are the people i play against. Everyone is over hyping this thing honestly. Sure when it makes it into combat it will hurt, but honestly with how this thing moves its not hard to get in its way or get a charge on it.
- Must move in a straight line
- 3d6 movement is both a curse and a benefit, Nothing like pivoting hoping for that 9 -10in charge, then you roll a 8 and fall short to have the enemy unit either get away (if they manueverable) or charge you ( even ranked infantry can beat a abom, depending on what it rolls for its attacks, feed for example, even with the 3d6 str 6 attack result he will lose on average, and be forced to take a ld test) I will admit the 5-6 result is good, and is your best bet for beating most infantry but lets be honest, its not too much different from jump up and down.

People will use clanrats still due to how much fear is in the the meta game, slaves just cant cut it outside of general range, ld5 will not ensure those flank charges u want on DOC/vc units.

With the way the current game of warhammer works, skaven needed to be able to bring a punch to the table, hell every other army can but when skaven get things that allow them to do this people obviously freak out. Apparently most people wanted them to just get nerfed into oblivion with no boosts. Examples, Nerf warped lightning, Nerf ratling guns, nerf jezzails, well with out those things the previous list was horrendous.

THey toned down sad, and made skaven have some teeth in cc deal with it :)

Odin
30-11-2009, 13:25
It seems to me from just having read the book and tried to write a few lists, that the book is generally pretty good. Plenty of variety and ability to theme your lists or just go for a bit of whatever you fancy. But there seems to be a major lack of decent magic items. Where are the decent magic weapons? There's the Fellblade which will kill the wielder even if the enemy don't (he'll only have a pathetic armour save to protect him though (4+ at best), so will he even survive long enough to use it? Apart from that, there's nothing particularly useful. There is only one magic armour that actually provides any additional protection, one 5+ ward save under talismans, and virtually nothing in the way of Arcane items (those Grey Seers don't have much in the way of items, do they?). I guess this was to make room for the clan-specific items, but it still seems a bit weak.

Poseidal
30-11-2009, 13:32
Even if it loses combat it's stubborn so has a good chance of staying. 3D6 attack is average 11! What else can boast something like that, especially at s6!

fubukii
30-11-2009, 13:36
a charging unit of 4 blood knights? but str 7 and 8 str 4 attacks too

Oh all at a higher ws? :)

how about chaos knights?

Most things with str 6 or higher, have a much better ws and net more hits.

and ld8 while good is still failable, make him take a couple tests im sure it will run.

Poseidal
30-11-2009, 13:56
11 Attacks from 1 model, but even so:

But what is the points cost for a Blood Knight/Choas Knight unit? Especially as they lose effectiveness as wounds go down.

My friend who was playing it even thought the HPA was OTT.

fubukii
30-11-2009, 14:06
200 pts for 5 knights of chaos, and 220 for the bloods, so same ball park.

Granted they also always move thier flat rate of 7, and march/charge 14 which is what they paying for.

the HPA with some luck can be really powerful, but its no hydra by any means.
1 bad move roll on the first turns can leave this beast falling short and playing catch up the next few turns. Honestly its role is filled much better by PCB ( i can get about 15 of these for the same cost) and they will smash infantry and knights pretty well.

the only thing about the HPA that i will admit is broken is that you get a chance to get free rat swarms and for it to come back to life once its dead, despite its rare its still a game changing thing.

Storak
30-11-2009, 14:15
a charging unit of 4 blood knights? but str 7 and 8 str 4 attacks too

Oh all at a higher ws? :)

how about chaos knights?

Most things with str 6 or higher, have a much better ws and net more hits.

and ld8 while good is still failable, make him take a couple tests im sure it will run.

"bad in comparison with chaos knights" is going to become a proverb.

sorry, but a comparison with those frenzy knights doesn t make a lot of sense. they need to be played very differently.

Ld8 stubborn is about as good as things get.

fubukii
30-11-2009, 14:19
"bad in comparison with chaos knights" is going to become a proverb.

sorry, but a comparison with those frenzy knights doesn t make a lot of sense. they need to be played very differently.

Ld8 stubborn is about as good as things get.


you are right that they will be used differently but that is not the point, the point was offensive output.

While stubborn ld8 is good i admit, its not all its cracke up to be, and theres much better out there

- see lizardmen
- see dark elves
- UD/instabilty for daemons

to name a few.

Poseidal
30-11-2009, 14:24
Average is 10.5" move though, and much less weak flanks than the knights along with 360 motion.

I think it might synergise with the Storm Banner too well. It didn't make it to combat, but with -2 for shooting against it it's much more likely to keep most of it's wounds.

Then, it can actually take a charge. Something very hard hitting (like Choas Knights), 2 units hitting it in the side/rear or side/front will only do an average of 2.9 (4.7 with khorne knights) unsaved wounds. Because it's stubborn, it's likely to stick around even though they've got a huge static advantage on top of those wounds leaving the flanks of those expensive knight units exposed.

Thing is, it's not only hitting hard, it can take charges too.

You are right about offence for PCB though, but I'm not sure they have the staying power as they go down to S3 on something they don't break.

EndlessBug
30-11-2009, 14:25
My issues with it are:

HPA - it's FAR too hitty for a stubborn, regenning T6 monster. Tone down it's special attacks and it'd be ok.

Doomrocket - yes it's random, it's also only 30 points, a trebble 1 for a missfire? I'm not going to do the maths but that is ridiculously rare. It only needs to touch a unit to do its points back.

i.e. in my gaming area i've seen it in use 3 times, twice against me, completely missed the first time (it's only 30 points so not the end of the world). the other time it hit my entire unit of 18 Black Guard and 4 harpies, killing 15 BG and 4 Harpies! I also saw it get a direct hit on another DE BG unit, wiping out 10 of them.

a 30 point item should NOT have the ability to kill near 200 points of the opponents army in one go. It's not even that hard to hit with. sure a direct hit is rare (not what I've seen, but statistically it is), but even hitting 1/3 of a unit will usually get its points back. average range of 14" to 24.5", minimum none missfiring range of 6", maximum of 42".

fubukii
30-11-2009, 14:46
its toughness 5

All you need is 1 flcikering fire to go off then mop it up with a unit of knights, or horsemen, its not exactly too difficult.

sure it has mr1 but that doesnt grant it spell immunity by any means!

Trust me PCB spam, and doomwheels are a far worse fate then fighting a HPA :)

Poseidal
30-11-2009, 14:55
If we can figure out how the Doomwheel works. (RAW, it can't initiate combat)

What characters are generally run in Skaven? I see more casters than combat characters. Sure, flickering fire would wreak it (though you're in 18" of it if you can get it off) but casting it off 1 dice or 2, against MR1, 6 DD and scrolls is pretty tough.

EDIT: PCB definately are a huge thing, as is the Doom Wheel. In 2000, you can run both, but would you say 2xDW is stonger than DW/HPA?

decker_cky
30-11-2009, 14:56
HPA is T5.

And anyone calling HPA as broken as a hydra is off their rocker. Hydra is nasty because it can hide from damage, shoot with an incredible breath weapon, shrug off all small arms fire (armour on top of regen) and dominate in combat. The HPA getting the charge is basically going to win if it gets the charge off or rolls avalanche in combat, but it can't dodge around terrain to reduce damage, nor can it shrug off incoming fire the same way. Random movement mean things like charging for 10" will fail about 40% of the time. 360 degree charging probably compensates, but on average, it really doesn't have the speed to take advantage of that.

IMO, it's scary and good, but it's about balanced for it's points (similar value for it's points to a treeman).

The skaven army can do anything, just not all at once. The scary lists all suffer from severe lack of numbers.

EndlessBug
30-11-2009, 14:58
its toughness 5

All you need is 1 flcikering fire to go off then mop it up with a unit of knights, or horsemen, its not exactly too difficult.

sure it has mr1 but that doesnt grant it spell immunity by any means!

Trust me PCB spam, and doomwheels are a far worse fate then fighting a HPA :)


So if you're Daemons or WoC. Lore of fire if not. Still you'll need a strong magic phase seeing as more often than not a greyseer is the lord of choice (still giving Ld 10 with ranks - which is also wrong IMO), usually backed up by at least a warlock engineer and sometimes a plaque priest, so 6 DD and 1-2 scrolls.

I wasn't complaining at its toughness, I was complaining as it is far too hitty while still having a decent toughness/protection.

warhawk95
30-11-2009, 15:00
I think the fact it has to move in a straight line is a big disadvantage for fast armies because they can quickly re-deploy to get out of its way, but it is still under priced (not by much) IMO mainly because it can come back alive and because its special attacks are really good. these are left for the dice gods, so i guess i can start to see why it might suck to have it do nothing for a turn or two by just moving say 5 and then 4 inches, thats not alot. once it gets into combat though watch out.

I think it is good though as fubukii said that someother clans now have their time to shine. so it does give the list some variety and I have to give GW some credit, skaven, DoC, DE, LM all have lots of variety in their list and if you look at the tournament builds for those armies they can vary quite a bit because each unit more or less is worth taking (there are some exceptions of course). So even though there are some things that are quite obviously bent and possibly broken is still a good book and Im glad that some variety was given to skaven. hopefully this will be a trend that continues.

Poseidal
30-11-2009, 15:00
No, that's the problem with the HPA. It has it's cake AND eats it.

It isn't quite the powerhouse of the Hydra, but I would say it's more potent than a Treeman (50 or more points more expensive) or Giant (around the same cost).

I think the fact it has to move in a straight line is a big disadvantage for fast armies because they can quickly re-deploy to get out of its way,
It can choose to move any direction, so units have to move well away.

yorch
30-11-2009, 15:08
The skaven army can do anything, just not all at once. The scary lists all suffer from severe lack of numbers.

Well, 2 doomwheels and 4 units of 7PCBs are 800 points... with plenty of space for getting a horde and good magic. THAT is scary :p

Anyway, the HPA is getting al the attention, but I think doomwheels and PCBs are far more underpriced in my opinion.

The thing is, now that missile fire has be toned down, skaven need those kind of heavy hitters to cut the mustard, because some things can't be taken out by sheer numbers, and this kind of things are getting more common every armybook revision. I don't think skavens in general are so broken as some say. They have undercosted units, but they certainly won't crush any of the big three easily, so it's ok.

fubukii
30-11-2009, 15:10
ahelpit is 250 points, only 35 less then a treeman who gets a shooting attack and a bound spell.

warhawk hit my thoughts on the HPA on the head, manueverable armies will avoid it like the plague and it will never see combat.

I generally run for my characters
grey seer, plague priest on furance, warlock
Or seer 2 priests 1 furnace
I will soon try seer 2 priests, 1 furnace and a warlock.

Yes woc/doc, and any mages who can use the lore of fire will be effective vs the HPA. Even with 6 dd if you spend some points on magic, ( i think you really need at least 9+ pd in todays meta game) you will be able to get off spells. Just have to manage your dice right.

decker_cky
30-11-2009, 15:16
Well, 2 doomwheels and 4 units of 7PCBs are 800 points... with plenty of space for getting a horde and good magic. THAT is scary :p

No....you really CAN'T get good magic and a horde with the remaining 1200 pts. The magic is surprisingly tame since there's no casting bonuses or free power dice. With the protective items you take, getting a 10 power dice magic phase will likely cost you around 700+ pts. Barring going all out with slaves, there's not enough points to horde out there, and 10 power dice isn't even an incredible magic phase. And going all out on slaves when you have 4 units of PCBs is a bad idea, since slaves will eat your PCBs up.

EvC
30-11-2009, 15:50
Only one game against them so far, pretty balanced but two Doomwheels, which was mighty scary. I saw a Skaven Assassin in action and he actually killed a Wight King so that was pretty cool. I like that I didn't win my first game against them, indicates they're tough, but it was only a minor loss so wasn't stomped. Helped that in my turn 1 I got off Wind of Undeath with IF, whilst my opponent miscast and lost Plague, mind you ;)

DarkTerror
30-11-2009, 16:19
Doomwheels aren't OTT, but only because they're not allowed to charge.

HPA are ridiculous once they get into combat. I think the problem Fubukii has is that he IS playing in a competitive environment, where everyone is expected to be able to take down multiple big nasties (face it, monsters/cavalary are what makes most armies "competitive" :( ). If I had to face even one with my Beastmen I think I'd have to hide for the game, or pack up and leave. Otherwise the HPA(s) would just get plopped down in the middle, then let them go to work.

The HPA is (IMO) more broken than a Hydra. They're probably equal in terms of value, with the Hydra being massively underpriced. However, there are few, if any, units I'd match up against a HPA... EVER. It's capable of taking on most anything. If you don't wound it before combat be prepared to die with whatever it touches.

fubukii
30-11-2009, 16:23
No....you really CAN'T get good magic and a horde with the remaining 1200 pts. The magic is surprisingly tame since there's no casting bonuses or free power dice. With the protective items you take, getting a 10 power dice magic phase will likely cost you around 700+ pts. Barring going all out with slaves, there's not enough points to horde out there, and 10 power dice isn't even an incredible magic phase. And going all out on slaves when you have 4 units of PCBs is a bad idea, since slaves will eat your PCBs up.

i run

grey seer
Plague priest - furance
warlock
3 x 25 clanrats full cmd
4 x 21 slaves - mus
2 rat swarms
25 monks full cmd storm banner
3 x 6 pcb
2 wheels

in 2250 id say thats pretty hordey and magic heeavy :)

dark i think you nailed it pretty good, i fight against armies like Tournament daemon lists, Vc magic heavy combat vc, Dark elves, Eotg spam lizzy, stankpire, to name a few. the abom vs the armies i play is just either in trouble from turn 1 (cannons, magic, flamers, infinite zombie tarpit etc), or has trouble catching these fast armies.

yorch
30-11-2009, 16:35
No....you really CAN'T get good magic and a horde with the remaining 1200 pts. The magic is surprisingly tame since there's no casting bonuses or free power dice. With the protective items you take, getting a 10 power dice magic phase will likely cost you around 700+ pts. Barring going all out with slaves, there's not enough points to horde out there, and 10 power dice isn't even an incredible magic phase. And going all out on slaves when you have 4 units of PCBs is a bad idea, since slaves will eat your PCBs up.

Ok, let's see:

1 Seer with dispel scroll
3 Lvl 2 engineers. One with supercharged accumulator

18 Stormvermin with standard and musician. Storm banner :cool:
20 Clanrats with shield. Standard and musician
20 Clanrats with shield. Standard and musician

21 Slaves. Musician
21 Slaves. Musician
22 Slaves. Musician
22 Slaves. Musician

1 Minimun size rat pack
1 Minimun size rat pack
1 Minimun size rat pack
1 Minimun size rat pack

4 Units of 7 PCBs
2 Doomwheels


That's 2k exactly. 202 Minis, 17 units, 12PD, 7DD, storm banner :p:p:p

Rhellion
30-11-2009, 16:39
If we can figure out how the Doomwheel works. (RAW, it can't initiate combat)

"The Doomwheel moves and maneuvers like a chariot with a few exceptions"

A Doomwheel declares charges in the Declare Charges phase of Movement (like a chariot).

The exceptions are that it moves 3d6" and in compulsory. And that it can charge if it hits an enemy unit while out of control.

warhawk95
30-11-2009, 16:57
No, that's the problem with the HPA. It has it's cake AND eats it.

It isn't quite the powerhouse of the Hydra, but I would say it's more potent than a Treeman (50 or more points more expensive) or Giant (around the same cost).



See here is the thing that i think we are all seeing the good, and not the bad. it happens with every army. we all look at the HPA and say oh wow it can move 15 inches and attack me turn one, it can do 2D6 S6 attacks on top of an I test. yes well it could also move 4 inches one turn and then wound itself the next. I think the thing is all of its special attacks are rather good. So yes it is good and a bit under priced, but it is also random and could end up doing nothing the entire battle because it moves radomly. Thats not to say that once you get into combat with be prepared to die, and this is why i think it is underpriced because it will tear any unit it touches up, but but the problem is that getting it into combat isnt always a guarantee.

Poseidal
30-11-2009, 17:04
The Doomwheel also moves randomly ( as for the charging thing, I have no idea: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229349 )

Thing is, the average is 10.5 (slightly more than a Skaven March), and can't be marchblocked. Also, the chances of rolling 3 or 4 for each of it's movement phases is very very low. You might as well say it's possible for Hydras to miss all their attacks in a close combat phase.

The thing is, it has a 360 charge so it makes it much more difficult to outmanoeuvre. (Standard infantry who get into LOS and their own charge range would be charged on an average dice roll for it's movement).

decker_cky
30-11-2009, 17:19
Ok, let's see:

1 Seer with dispel scroll
3 Lvl 2 engineers. One with supercharged accumulator

18 Stormvermin with standard and musician. Storm banner :cool:
20 Clanrats with shield. Standard and musician
20 Clanrats with shield. Standard and musician

21 Slaves. Musician
21 Slaves. Musician
22 Slaves. Musician
22 Slaves. Musician

1 Minimun size rat pack
1 Minimun size rat pack
1 Minimun size rat pack
1 Minimun size rat pack

4 Units of 7 PCBs
2 Doomwheels


That's 2k exactly. 202 Minis, 17 units, 12PD, 7DD, storm banner :p:p:p

A key problem is that:

1.) PCB can never be the closest unit to either doomwheels or you'll likely zap them.

2.) PCB are being risky by remaining close to slaves, since breaking slaves will kill your fragile PCBs.

3.) If you get your doomwheel shot, it risks rampaging into your lines, making it harder to organize 1 and 2.

4.) A breaking slave block stands a good chance of knocking out the packmaster of any nearby rat packs.

4.) The leadership in the entire army is incredibly fragile (you have virtually no padding on your leadership 10).

Honestly....that's 200 models, but it's not a scary army.

Rothkeen
30-11-2009, 17:35
It's pretty nice

EndlessBug
30-11-2009, 17:41
The Doomwheel also moves randomly ( as for the charging thing, I have no idea: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229349 )

Thing is, the average is 10.5 (slightly more than a Skaven March), and can't be marchblocked. Also, the chances of rolling 3 or 4 for each of it's movement phases is very very low. You might as well say it's possible for Hydras to miss all their attacks in a close combat phase.

The thing is, it has a 360 charge so it makes it much more difficult to outmanoeuvre. (Standard infantry who get into LOS and their own charge range would be charged on an average dice roll for it's movement).

Agreed.

If you're going to argue that it could go 4" then 5", I'll argue it could go 18" then 16". 34" in 2 turns isn't bad! Realistically over 2 turns it is likely to go 21", or thereabouts.

Your points that its random movement is its weakness can be countered by the fact that it's random movement is its advantage. I see a HPA 24 " from me in the first turn, can I get away with moving 13" away from it to avoid a charge? Not comfortably, no. Can I do so with a hydra? Yes (ofc it can still flame me). Can I put a unit of fast cav/fliers 8" away from the Hydra to march block it? Yes. Such a tactic wouldn't matter for the HPA, it would still go 3d6 inches in any direction it likes.

I am not trying to say it's better than a Hydra in terms of movement, just that it's random movement does not make it worse. Overall though I dobelieve it's stronger than a hydra.

options for its attacks (IIRC):
2d6 S6 hits
3d6 S6 attacks (WS 3)
I test for all models in base contact or a S6 hit (4 usually) and 3d6 S6 attacks

All of the above produce an average 5 S6 hits.

Is that better than 7 S5 hatred WS 4 attacks and 6 S3 AP hatred WS 4 attacks? I'll leave that open.

The HPA still has stubborn Ld 8 even if it fluffs.

decker_cky
30-11-2009, 18:10
Hydra is better for free movement through woods, faster movement and a flame weapon at 60-75 pts cheaper. Abomination is combat and only combat. Yes...it can potentially move 18", but it'll likely move 10.5 on average, and even planning for 10, it stands a significant chance of falling short. Planning for a high number is a gamble at best, and will lead to it getting countercharged.

In combat the abomination is better than a hydra, but not by that much. BTW, aren't the attacks S6 D3 wound hits on base to base models, 3D6 attacks, or initiative test and 2d6 wounds? Aside from the impact hits, that makes the hydra better in combat 2/3 of the time in my books.

Melkirich
30-11-2009, 18:16
In one game my HPA came back alive twice? Priceless moment on my opponents face. Everyone seems so afraid of it they try to ignore it so basicely while your whole army is dead the HPA is still alive.

I am also finding that even when games go badly the HPA survives to the end.

My only criticism of the book, and it's been mentioned several times already here, is that Censer Bearers trump all other special choices: I don't like it when that happens in an army book; diversity should be a strength.

Foegnasher
30-11-2009, 18:35
I am also finding that even when games go badly the HPA survives to the end.

My only criticism of the book, and it's been mentioned several times already here, is that Censer Bearers trump all other special choices: I don't like it when that happens in an army book; diversity should be a strength.

the only draw back to the censers is the fact they are frenzied with 360 degree charge arc. fastcav and fliers can pull them into all sorts of problems.

you need to use tehm in a horde style army, if you want to get them to go where you want. and even then... it's iffy. plus mine routinely kill themselfs on important charges. now though, it's not so bad, when 4 of them can still wipe the floor with a lance of brettonians knights? yeah they are badass.

sulla
30-11-2009, 18:53
In combat the abomination is better than a hydra, but not by that much. BTW, aren't the attacks S6 D3 wound hits on base to base models, 3D6 attacks, or initiative test and 2d6 wounds? Aside from the impact hits, that makes the hydra better in combat 2/3 of the time in my books.To be honest, the abom is likely to get the charge, so you can't really ignore those impact hits.

It's such a solid choice vs any army isn't it. Even hard hitting armies like HE, DE, WoC and Daemons have to be scared of it because none of them can kill it in one combat phase and are gonna lose a handful (or a big handful) of expensive hard hitters in return. Sending SCR units to tie it down doesn't look a solid strat becasue it is stubborn and likely to beat them on the charge whatever attacks it rolls. Probably the safest thing to do is to feed it junk/bait and flee for the whole game while chipping away with shooting/magic/suicide chariots. Fast cav parked 1" in front of it give the owning player the ability to control the direction it travels if you are willing to sacrifice them as neccessary.

yorch
30-11-2009, 18:54
A key problem is that:

1.) PCB can never be the closest unit to either doomwheels or you'll likely zap them.

2.) PCB are being risky by remaining close to slaves, since breaking slaves will kill your fragile PCBs.

3.) If you get your doomwheel shot, it risks rampaging into your lines, making it harder to organize 1 and 2.

4.) A breaking slave block stands a good chance of knocking out the packmaster of any nearby rat packs.

4.) The leadership in the entire army is incredibly fragile (you have virtually no padding on your leadership 10).

Honestly....that's 200 models, but it's not a scary army.

Yeah decker, I am such a bad player I never thought of that points... I would put the seer between the doomwheels to see if he recharges energy or at least gets a fancy hair... :rolleyes: :p

It's not an autoplay army, but even the cheesiest daemon list neither. It's still a list I won't like to face by any means, and not a list I am using nonetheless (I play warlord clans always... been years without using seers). If you don't see the power in that list...

Whatever...

About the HPA, it's attacks are:

1-2: Feed: All models BtB suffer an S6 D3 no AS hit
3-4: Flailing fists: 3D6 attacks. All units suffering a wound get -1 to hit for the remaining combat
5-6: Avalanche of flesh: BtB models do an I test or suffer an S6 hit. In addition, they suffer 2D6 automatic hits

Let's do math-hammer

So, vs anything T4 or less (all infantry, cavalry and ogre sized) and NOT charging
Feed: 3.3 wounds no AS (6.6 vs ogres and the like)
Flailing fists: 4.375 -3AS wounds (WS3 or more)
Avalanche of flesh: 6.7 -3AS wounds

If charging add 3 extra wounds -3AS :rolleyes:


Hydra:
WS3-, T3=> 5.19 -2AS (hatred), 3.89 -2AS (not hatred)
WS4+,T3=> 4.58 -2AS (hatred), 2.92 -2AS (not hatred)
WS3-, T4=> 4.15 -2AS (hatred), 3.11 -2AS (not hatred)
WS4+,T4=> 3.5 -2AS (hatred), 2.33 .2AS (not hatred)
Packmasters:
WS3-, T3=> 2.67 -1AS (hatred), 2 -1AS (not hatred)
WS4+,T3=> 2.25 -1AS (hatred), 1.5 -1AS(not hatred)
WS3-, T4=> 1.78 -1AS(hatred), 2.33 -1AS (not hatred)
WS4+,T4=> 1.5 -1AS(hatred), 1 -1AS(not hatred)

So, whith the numbers all I can say is that if you are charged by and HPA, you are totally screwed, as you'll get an average of 7 -3AS wounds. The rest of the turns (with less static resolution due to soldiers killed) you will have to be lucky to survive, because the damage output of the HPA is quite brutal.

However, if the HPA is not charging, which is more likely than the hydra due to it's movement, it can be destroyed with a bit of luck.

The main difference in damage output with the hydra is that the hydra excells at mowing down weak RnF blocks, while struggles against heavily armored units. HPA, due to its high strenght attacks and practically ignoring enemies WS is more all rounded, but also risky (too dice dependant).

Anyway, the "brokenness" of the HPA is it's hability to charge 360 and not be march blocked. But with the numbers I'd say it is no way as broken as de hydra (which is cheaper, has 4+AS and a template weapon).

fubukii
30-11-2009, 19:02
daemons dont need heavy hitters to kill a abom

Although a bloodthrister should kill it in 1 round.

Flamers down it fast
Flickering fire also does nice work.
Plaguebearers with herald tarpit it like champs.

and vc do great vs the abom
Flaming banner
tarpit with zombies banshe howl it

Storak
30-11-2009, 19:18
a bloodthirster can kill it?

flamers can?

i did not think that it was that weak....

sorry, but all this comparisons are pretty evil power creep in action. "not as broken as a hydra" is just a bad thing. all those units are completely broken. the abomination fits in rather perfectly.

just tough luck for those armies, with no access to flame attacks...

Emissary
30-11-2009, 19:40
Personally I think it's hilarious to watch skaven and DE players have a slapfight over who's monster is most broken. Yeehaw, you won, doesn't change the fact that both are too good.

warhawk95
30-11-2009, 19:46
ya sorry fubukii your not exactly talking abou the weakest units that can kill it, most armies have trouble with a BT and cant take it out, so the fact it can destroy a HPA is not really a big deal as i dont think much besides a DE dragon or star dragon can (and those are streches because of the guy on top). Alright well after reading the argumets I will admit that I really dont have anything to counter your guys points and will admit that it is better than i thought at first glance. I do agree anything that is charged by that thing is going to be destroyed it is a beast in CC and next to dragons and BT is one of the strongest units in the game in that category. also I do agree 360 charging is an issue because it greatly increases its threat range. so points taken.

as for vs the hydra, I think i would take the hydra mainly because its cheaper and it is much better in movment than a HPA. that being said i think both are in terms of equal power because the increased strength the HPA has compared to they hydra and its ability to come back alive is enough to outway its lack of beath weapon and movment abilities. so it seems that hydras and HPA are here to top warhammer.

blackjack
30-11-2009, 20:05
I just had a battle last night against an Abom, Wheel, Furnace list.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229078&page=2

The wheel was no problem but the Abomination was pure murder.

The WOC have exactly one flaming weapon available to them and it costs 75pts....

Bac5665
30-11-2009, 20:06
PCB aren't that scarry at all. Sure, on the charge they will wipe you, but they should never get the charge (against something important). They should either be shot or magic'd, which isn't that had to do given the pretty bad magic defense the new skaven have. And as long as you go first, you'll win combat big. Sure, you might take a few casualties, but chaos knights will wipe out a unit of 8 on the charge easy.

Kuroi
30-11-2009, 20:10
Hmm, how does the HPA work with VP's? If it dies but comes back as rat swarms, do you
a) Get full victory points for its death?
b) Do you have to kill the rat swarms to get all the Vp's?
c) if you kill the rat swarms, do you get VP's for killing the HPA and then VP's for the rat swarms?

Also, I'd rather face a hydra, or dubbel hydras over HPA/dubbel HPA. Say what you will, but i prefer monsters that stay dead when I kill them.

decker_cky
30-11-2009, 20:30
I seem to remember reading it and the wording being that it was dead and rat swarms were put where it died, so the HPA is dead, and there's no VPs for the swarms.

SlaaneshSlave
01-12-2009, 00:09
I think alot of people are theory hammering with the skaven book.

I have played skaven since 5th edition and have already got a goood amount of games under my belt with 7th ed rats.

With the way the current game of warhammer works, skaven needed to be able to bring a punch to the table, hell every other army can but when skaven get things that allow them to do this people obviously freak out. Apparently most people wanted them to just get nerfed into oblivion with no boosts. Examples, Nerf warped lightning, Nerf ratling guns, nerf jezzails, well with out those things the previous list was horrendous.

THey toned down sad, and made skaven have some teeth in cc deal with it :)
Seconded.

HPA is good. Really good even. But it cannot win games by itself, unless your opponent freaks out. It's use to me, is to hold my opponents full attention & let my army earn the points.

So, it makes the Skaven army better overall, not on its own. I think that is decent army building. But it could be weaker & still fulfill the same role.

My recommendations to HPA opponents. Don't Panic. Shoot the crap out of it or slow it down with disposable units.

Zarroc
01-12-2009, 00:52
Its actaully good seeing more CC skaven army, fighting SAD list was a horrible experience, worst games i ever played, boring lol

Foegnasher
01-12-2009, 04:54
PCB aren't that scarry at all. Sure, on the charge they will wipe you, but they should never get the charge (against something important). They should either be shot or magic'd, which isn't that had to do given the pretty bad magic defense the new skaven have. And as long as you go first, you'll win combat big. Sure, you might take a few casualties, but chaos knights will wipe out a unit of 8 on the charge easy.

any idiot that lets you charge his pcbs with your knights desrves to lose.

your kights are the baddest scariest thing in warhammer right up there with blood knights and the rest. THEY BETTER kill them if they charge!

if however, said censers are burild in a mass of tangled slaves, and clanrats... then all of a sudden are comeing in from your flank? well... the outcome may not be what you are looking for.

ChaosVC
01-12-2009, 09:16
I wish I will find the time to read it instead of burying my head in Dragon Age Origin.

Melkirich
01-12-2009, 11:15
your kights are the baddest scariest thing in warhammer right up there with blood knights and the rest. THEY BETTER kill them if they charge!

Ironically, PCB's are one of the best units for withstanding a charge from heavy cavalry because of the gas attacks before combat and being toughness 4 (3's to wound instead of 2's).
And then there are relative costs to consider: If 5 Knights of Khorne charge 5 PCB's they better hope to make 4 of those toughness checks or they've already lost more than they can kill going by points.

fubukii
01-12-2009, 21:23
as for people complaining about how hard it is plenty of armies of things to kill it

- doc
stated earlier
vc - stated earlier
Empire -
Cannons, handguns, lore of fire, crossbows, steam tanks
dwarves - bolt throwers, cannons organ guns, dwarf heroes
LM - skinks with blow pipes, lore of fire, razadons, saurus char with unit support.
SKaven - doom wheels jezzails wlc
WOC - flickering fire, chaos knights, gateway, can even sacrafice Light horse into it with MOK and flails to do some dmg.
Dark elves - RBT, shades, pendant lord, dragons etc
High elves RBT, lore of fire, dragons,
Orcs - bolt throwers

So most armies have tools to kill it, but people act like this thing is unkillable ; / a bit of a over reaction is all im saying.

blackjack
01-12-2009, 21:56
WOC - flickering fire, chaos knights, gateway, can even sacrafice Light horse into it with MOK and flails to do some dmg.


4 chaos knights (which is all that can get into base to base with a 50mm monster) charge an Abom, assuming they pass fear check. 8 attacks, hit on 3s wound on 4s, regen on 4 = 1.33 wounds, 4 horse attacks hit on 4, wound on 5, regen on 4 = .333 wounds.) MOK knights do 50% more.

Abom attacks back and kills every knight or every knight in base to base with most results. Knights out numbered by terror causer break and flee.

Sacrifice light horse is right, if they pass terror and dont runaway, will do less than half the damage then the knights would.

WOC have exactly one flaming weapon and it costs 75pts.

A fully tooled Khorne lord with a daemon blade costing 370pts does an average of 2.5 wounds to it and very likely dies to the return attacks over two turns if he does not chop his own head off.

H33D
01-12-2009, 23:19
if you are getting into cc with it, you better be using disposable units. shoot and run like heck if it gets close to your valuable troops. and use fire people. it wont come back...

decker_cky
01-12-2009, 23:56
4 chaos knights (which is all that can get into base to base with a 50mm monster) charge an Abom, assuming they pass fear check. 8 attacks, hit on 3s wound on 4s, regen on 4 = 1.33 wounds, 4 horse attacks hit on 4, wound on 5, regen on 4 = .333 wounds.) MOK knights do 50% more.

Abom attacks back and kills every knight or every knight in base to base with most results. Knights out numbered by terror causer break and flee.

Sacrifice light horse is right, if they pass terror and dont runaway, will do less than half the damage then the knights would.

WOC have exactly one flaming weapon and it costs 75pts.

A fully tooled Khorne lord with a daemon blade costing 370pts does an average of 2.5 wounds to it and very likely dies to the return attacks over two turns if he does not chop his own head off.

*Yawn*

S6 hits to everything in base to base does about 1.67 wounds to the knights. 3d6 attacks averages to about 2 wounds to the knights. It's only the 2D6 hits result that really hurts the knights (and that won't on average kill all of them).

Tzeentch, nurgle and khorne knights will all do better than those calculations (nurgle is hit on 5's on a 3D6 attacks, tzeentch has a ward reducing all results and khorne does 50% more damage). With tzeentch and nurgle, the banner of rage means they'll absolutely slaughter the abom (and how often is that banner not somewhere).

fubukii
02-12-2009, 00:02
*Yawn*

S6 hits to everything in base to base does about 1.67 wounds to the knights. 3d6 attacks averages to about 2 wounds to the knights. It's only the 2D6 hits result that really hurts the knights (and that won't on average kill all of them).

Tzeentch, nurgle and khorne knights will all do better than those calculations (nurgle is hit on 5's on a 3D6 attacks, tzeentch has a ward reducing all results and khorne does 50% more damage). With tzeentch and nurgle, the banner of rage means they'll absolutely slaughter the abom (and how often is that banner not somewhere).

Ah finally someone who sees common sense like me :)

As for the light horsemen, try mok and flails, what terror check :)?

105 pts for 10 str 5 10 str 3 attacks? yes plz. Also who said you have to fight the thing at full wounds? hit it with flickering fire first then mop him up in combat, its a game of tactics, fighting full strength units isnt normally a good idea.

Zarroc
02-12-2009, 01:23
Ah finally someone who sees common sense like me :)

As for the light horsemen, try mok and flails, what terror check :)?

105 pts for 10 str 5 10 str 3 attacks? yes plz. Also who said you have to fight the thing at full wounds? hit it with flickering fire first then mop him up in combat, its a game of tactics, fighting full strength units isnt normally a good idea.

Logical approach...... and one id use if fighting a HPA

Storak
02-12-2009, 06:19
*Yawn*

S6 hits to everything in base to base does about 1.67 wounds to the knights. 3d6 attacks averages to about 2 wounds to the knights. It's only the 2D6 hits result that really hurts the knights (and that won't on average kill all of them).


you are wrong. feed does not give an armour save. that is 3.3 dead knights. and the attack causes multiple wounds, not a good idea to bring a char along.

the 2d6 S6 attacks, coupled with the ini check hit, it kills about the same number. on average...

if they fail fear, the abomination might get the charge, and do additional S6 impact hits.

and let us remember, that chaos knights are considered under priced. this comparison to other broken units doesn t make a lot of sense.

Kayosiv
02-12-2009, 07:24
The hellpit abomination can win games by itself.

15 sauru, completely decked out oldblood on a cold one, hydra (team game) and stegadon with skink chief and warspear, charge it. They kill it, it comes back to life.

it charges (because it can charge the turn it can come back to life, I guess) the flank of the hydra, proceeds to demolish it, and hits the stegadon from the over run. Sauru unit and oldblood charge in. Sauru and character do a few wounds, they proceed to get obliterated. something like 8 Sauru die, and the Oldblood gets hit once, his armor is ignored, fails his ward, and takes 3 wounds because he rolled a 5 on his d3 wounds. It then proceeds to kill the skink chief and grievously wound the stegadon before finally dying a second time.

Yes it was lucky because he rolled the 6 to bring it back to life, but it scored 175 points for the hydra, over 200 for the sauru unit, and over 300 for the Oldblood (he was my general, bonus 100 points).

Quite frankly, it did win the game by itself. Marginal Victory on his part. Why only a marginal victory? He picked a doomwheel instead of another hellpit abomination.

Storak
02-12-2009, 07:26
105 pts for 10 str 5 10 str 3 attacks? yes plz.

they do 2 wounds on average. and the unit will be wiped out afterwards.

and that is, if the skaven player does not know how to handle frenzy cav, that can be blown up by slaves.

sorry, but these attempts to demonstrate the weakness of the abominations are backfiring.

Crenshaw
02-12-2009, 07:40
Haven't read the book yet, but the new models (Doomwheel & that bell) make me want to start a new skaven army. Which is sort of bad since i already have 3 rather large armies, and i just started playing WH a year ago.

Infurion
02-12-2009, 07:40
Remember if it takes just one wound from a fire attack, it can not roll to come back to life.

fubukii
02-12-2009, 18:21
they do 2 wounds on average. and the unit will be wiped out afterwards.

and that is, if the skaven player does not know how to handle frenzy cav, that can be blown up by slaves.

sorry, but these attempts to demonstrate the weakness of the abominations are backfiring.

true but the chaos player can use warhouds to keep his frenized units in check, its a common tactic honestly.

And theres generally more then 1 unit of MOK horsemen, followed by khorne knight spam, and tzeentch wizzys. Weaken it with magic, finish it in cc. 2 wounds may be all thats needed to finish it off, after a flickering fire

yorch
02-12-2009, 19:11
Yes, but still, you are losing a unit of 105points for causing 2 wounds at a 6 wound 235 point monster... so no.

The HPA is underpriced... maybe it's less underpriced than the hydra, but still it's no excuse. We have to get over with it...

I will, for example, field 2 doomwheels as I really like the new mini, and they are as undercosted as the HPA (they shoud cost 175 - 200 points) but that's life. I will compensate it with one or two big blocks of stormvermin in friendly games :)

Anyway, at least I do not complain when someone fields underpriced units. Every new army has them, and at least, for us, skaven players, one of them is an awesome mini.

selone
02-12-2009, 19:54
Why are people saying Chaos Knights are Strength 6? I mean, why would you pay an extra 5 points to lose ensorcelled weapons ;) ?

I like the Skaven book though I fear I won't liek the HPA when I finally face it.

Storak
02-12-2009, 20:04
true but the chaos player can use warhouds to keep his frenized units in check, its a common tactic honestly.

And theres generally more then 1 unit of MOK horsemen, followed by khorne knight spam, and tzeentch wizzys. Weaken it with magic, finish it in cc. 2 wounds may be all thats needed to finish it off, after a flickering fire

and skaven shoot at fast cav units.

doing 4 wounds with a flickering fire is a little optimistic. on average the magic missile does 4.5 Strength 4.5 hits. it will very rarely do 4 wounds against T5.

and if this should happen often, the abomination can buy magic resistance for a pretty cheap price. (plus magic weapons, something that was identified as the one disadvantage of the hydra..)


I like the Skaven book though I fear I won't liek the HPA when I finally face it.

i agree with this Selone!

i actually think that Skaven fit in well, with other recent books. my main problem with the book is not power level, but how unclear the rules are.

fubukii
02-12-2009, 21:27
and skaven shoot at fast cav units.

doing 4 wounds with a flickering fire is a little optimistic. on average the magic missile does 4.5 Strength 4.5 hits. it will very rarely do 4 wounds against T5.

and if this should happen often, the abomination can buy magic resistance for a pretty cheap price. (plus magic weapons, something that was identified as the one disadvantage of the hydra..)



i agree with this Selone!

i actually think that Skaven fit in well, with other recent books. my main problem with the book is not power level, but how unclear the rules are.

actually skaven shooting is pretty Ineffective in the new book. Jezzails will not be taken often due to the storm banner, and thier toning down
Ratling guns will be left at home
plague mortars may be taken, but arent good vs hounds really
WFT may also be taken, but pretty random range and probably wont be wasted at shoooting hounds. Could also be a target of a Flickering fire to finish it off
WLC - probably wont be used on hounds or taken much
Doomwheels - could work i suppose?


that about sums up skaven shooting, you wont see many slaves with slings, or night runners or gutter runners fielded at all. THe shooting will be tone greatly in most skaven lists, granted some may take it still but i dont think they will be used much in tournaments.

EvC
03-12-2009, 12:53
*Yawn*

S6 hits to everything in base to base does about 1.67 wounds to the knights. 3d6 attacks averages to about 2 wounds to the knights. It's only the 2D6 hits result that really hurts the knights (and that won't on average kill all of them).

Ah. That would explain why my opponent rolled that result in both rounds of combat against my Chaos Knights then- it's the best, so of course it will happen every time :( Also hadn't noticed that Feed denies armour save until now- I'd been praying for my opponent to roll that one. Gee that would've sucked.

Yeah the Abomination is broken and the only hope for most armies is to shoot it/ magic it.

Poseidal
03-12-2009, 13:01
3D6 attacks at S6 averages at 2.2 wounds to the knights. Less for Nurgle and Tzeentch knights though, who are hit on 5s or get a ward save respectively.

2D6 hits at S6 (no armour save) does on average kill the knights, with a massive 5.8 unsaved wounds!

yorch
03-12-2009, 14:18
Nope, it would do half the wounds, as the only attack that ignores AS is feed.

So, it is:

1-2) 4 S6 no AS: 3.3 wounds (2.78 tzeentch)
3-4) 5.25 (average) impacts -3AS (3.5 nurgle): 2.19 wounds (1.46 nurgle, 1.82 tzeentch)
5-6) 7 S6 impacts -3AS (not counting on failing a single I test): 2.92 wounds (2.43 tzeentch)

So on average it will kill like 3 knights... a bit less if they are tzeentch or nurgle marked (tzeentch specially).

Poseidal
03-12-2009, 14:29
Ah, I thought that ignored saves as well. 2D6 ingoring saves did seem a little *too* insane.

EvC
03-12-2009, 14:52
One thing I also tried to do was ensure that my champion was the only one fighting the best (it had flank charged them), as results 1-2 and 3-4 only affect models in base contact, which would have limited mister gribbly to one kill (+ flank, vs standard and outnumber- hey, it's survival!!).

Storak
03-12-2009, 16:36
Nope, it would do half the wounds, as the only attack that ignores AS is feed.

So, it is:

1-2) 4 S6 no AS: 3.3 wounds (2.78 tzeentch)
3-4) 5.25 (average) impacts -3AS (3.5 nurgle): 2.19 wounds (1.46 nurgle, 1.82 tzeentch)
5-6) 7 S6 impacts -3AS (not counting on failing a single I test): 2.92 wounds (2.43 tzeentch)

So on average it will kill like 3 knights... a bit less if they are tzeentch or nurgle marked (tzeentch specially).

true. and if the abomination gets the charge (after a failed fear test, for example) it adds another 1.5 wounds. which would leave basically no return attacks.. terror would autobreak the sole survivor, and it couldn t rally....

and we are talking about chaos knights. a unit that is considered pretty strong. and that costs more than the abomination...

Malorian
03-12-2009, 16:46
The abomination is a real monster and when thinking about how to beat it sending in knights will never be the answer no matter if they are even chaos knights.

The answer to taking that thing down is with warmachines, which unfortunately WoC just doesn't really have.

So the only other thing to do is to avoid it while you can and then tie it up with a big block.


We all learned how to adapt to the hydra, now the same must be done with the abomination.

TheMav80
03-12-2009, 16:50
I'm not too worried about the HPA with my Lizards. My standard Oldblood build should make short work out of it. Say hello to my Blade of Realities.

Course if it survives that and my Carnosaur I am screwed.

fubukii
03-12-2009, 18:07
actually a abomination is 235-250 points both costing more then your unit of chaos knights. even with a mark.

Poseidal
03-12-2009, 18:31
Knights with command (sans champion) and a Mark is at least 240, realistically it's going to be higher because you'll probably not use the cheapest mark.

fubukii
03-12-2009, 20:26
Most chaos knight units do not get command, or maybe just a musician

5 knights of khorne is 230 pts.
Only time i can see command is the MON banner of rage combo, as the +1 cr from banner isnt needed with units as hitty as chaos knights. You could try the warbanner banner combo, which will cost you the same as another knight, who would do the same thing but add a extra wound, and not give up 100vp for being captured.

Storak
03-12-2009, 20:38
Most chaos knight units do not get command, or maybe just a musician

5 knights of khorne is 230 pts.
Only time i can see command is the MON banner of rage combo, as the +1 cr from banner isnt needed with units as hitty as chaos knights. You could try the warbanner banner combo, which will cost you the same as another knight, who would do the same thing but add a extra wound, and not give up 100vp for being captured.

i took a quick look at the army section, and most knight units seem to come with musician and/or standard.

the khorne knights, that you chose to use now, might actually not need those most of the time.

so let us see:

when the abomination gets a lucky roll and the charge, it will wipe out the unit, without it even doing a single point of damage.

if the knights charge, they do about 3.3 wounds. the abomination will do about 3 wounds back. and it will outnumber and autobreak them..

perhaps they should have brought that banner AND the musician?

ps: frenzy knights will not be able to delay the chage, if your magic missile failed to do enough damage to finish it of...

Malorian
03-12-2009, 20:40
I still vote for a block of slaanesh marauders to just tie it up...

fubukii
03-12-2009, 20:48
i took a quick look at the army section, and most knight units seem to come with musician and/or standard.

the khorne knights, that you chose to use now, might actually not need those most of the time.

so let us see:

when the abomination gets a lucky roll and the charge, it will wipe out the unit, without it even doing a single point of damage.

if the knights charge, they do about 3.3 wounds. the abomination will do about 3 wounds back. and it will outnumber and autobreak them..

perhaps they should have brought that banner AND the musician?

ps: frenzy knights will not be able to delay the chage, if your magic missile failed to do enough damage to finish it of...

well yes theres alot of x factors. It will coem down to who can play better and what spells get casted. Gateway will do a number on the abom as will flickering fire. In addition woc has tons of throw away units such as hounds and light horsemen to keep the abom busy for a while, while my other units can killl clanrats capture banners and such. The average competitive WOC list has at least 10pd, so im sure i could harm the abom with my magic phase before engaging it.

blackjack
03-12-2009, 20:50
Bottom line, the thing is basicly another hydra. The hydra is still better as it is much cheaper, moves through terrain, has a breath weapon and is utterly controlable. The abom is, on the other hand, much scarier in combat.

Storak
03-12-2009, 20:53
I still vote for a block of slaanesh marauders to just tie it up...

it might work, but i am unconvinced.

avalanche of flesh is brutal. it kills about 7 marauders. the fists kill 4.4 and feed only 3.3, so with the impact hits each attack will force a breaktest.

not really bad, but not great either. i would not expect the unit to hold it up for 2 full turns.

Malorian
03-12-2009, 21:27
it might work, but i am unconvinced.

avalanche of flesh is brutal. it kills about 7 marauders. the fists kill 4.4 and feed only 3.3, so with the impact hits each attack will force a breaktest.

not really bad, but not great either. i would not expect the unit to hold it up for 2 full turns.

What would you suggest a WoC player do then?

decker_cky
03-12-2009, 21:35
Flickering fire is the best weapon. Flail horsemen are great at knocking off a wound here and there. There's several available hammers which could finish it off.

And yes...those marauders would work pretty well too. Any setup works, so the cheaper the better if possible. Have two possibilities. If the abom gets range to charge, flee and countercharge with the other one. The extra marauders are an overall useful unit, so no worries there.

Storak
03-12-2009, 21:41
i think magic is the best chance, but i would expect the skaven to bring the resistance, if playing against WoC.

redirecting it with dogs could work.

preventing it from getting a charge on a valuable unit will be important, and a high movement roll can be pretty bad news.

i think it will get pretty much attention by the WoC player...

yorch
03-12-2009, 21:43
EDIT: Ninja'd... 2 times

Flickering fire and/or gateway to soften it a bit, then charge... But mainly flickering fire, because you can't afford the chance of it resurrecting...

When I play daemons (:D) I cast 4 times per turn flickering fire and I've never had any problem with Hydras (I use 8PD... so 4FF with 2 dice, 2 units of 10 horrors and 2 heralds).

Storak
03-12-2009, 21:59
When I play daemons (:D) I cast 4 times per turn flickering fire and I've never had any problem with Hydras (I use 8PD... so 4FF with 2 dice, 2 units of 10 horrors and 2 heralds).

well, if even daemons can handle it, i guess it is not that strong....

yorch
03-12-2009, 23:07
well, if even daemons can handle it, i guess it is not that strong....

That's why I put the smiley :p I won't smile so much when I play skaven VS skaven, since the only flame attack we have is the warp-fire thrower and I don't use jezzails. So much work for my doomwheels :rolleyes:

But well, I think more or less every army can do something, but fo course it's better to kill this beast at the distance... HtH is far too risky

Anyway, the metagame is steering to "every army has to have a big monster terror causer" so I think we all have to include something to kill beasties.

Rynar
04-12-2009, 11:40
I've recently played twice against skaven using my dwarfs. My oponent is a good Friend and as players we are somewhat each others equal.

On both occasions I got hammered.

Our first game was a 2100pts, I could nullify most of his Magic untill I lost a runesmith to the Initiative test spell. (Dwarfs aren't too great on them) But it mostly was his firepower who costed me many dwarfs. His warp lighting cannons were horrible, in one phase they detonated in the middle of my units with str 8 and 10, a Dwarf army just can't soak that kind of casulties. Then the Plaguefurnace arrived and kept my two best units in combat for most of the game (hammerers with a lord & Iron breakers with a BSB)

The second game (3000pts) was even worse, In his first 2 casting phases he got 5 miscasts, his first 2 shooting phases were minimal (only 5 dwarfs died) And still I lost badly, My left flank crumbled because of Queek (He's realy super against Dwarves! 6 attacks hitting on a 2 (unless he faces a lord) and wounding on a 2 and no armour saves are alowed+ he hates dwarves)
I had Thodrek and his Anvil shooting lighting bolts like a madman in the first 3 turn but he let me down in the 4th when I lined up my lord with his hammerers and another unit to break the skaven lines when he failed to hit the Oath and Honour rune thus stranding my units horribly exposed. Then the 3 to 1 outnumbering realy came into play and I was assaulted on all flanks and had no chance of surviving.

A basic dwarf is nowerdays to overcosted, a unit of 19 with a full command and shields costs 196pts. Ok they have heavy armour and a good LD, thus staying around for a good long time but a basic skaven is far cheaper and this leaves more points for exotic stuff and magic.
A dwarf army can't stand up to an army with lots of magic targeting Initiative, taking away toughness and so on. And with very good war machines who ignore armour saves or reduce them alot (lighting cannon, ratling gun, jezails...)

Skaven always where an assault-en-masse army and now they can even stay on their half an schoot the crap out of the opponent...

There are some army's who can stand up against them, but they are few.

I think this book is a missed opertunity to make a good balanced army out of the Skaven.

yorch
04-12-2009, 12:23
By the way... dwarfs need a boost...

I haven't lost a single game against dwarfs since 6th ed... Playing skavens, daemons (both HoC deamons in 6th ed and DoC 7th ed) nor imperium...

Maybe it's my style of play, I don't know, but it's the only army I've never lost playing against... and I am not THAT good... (I am usually a lucky player, though :D)

Malorian
04-12-2009, 13:22
By the way... dwarfs need a boost...

I haven't lost a single game against dwarfs since 6th ed... Playing skavens, daemons (both HoC deamons in 6th ed and DoC 7th ed) nor imperium...

Maybe it's my style of play, I don't know, but it's the only army I've never lost playing against... and I am not THAT good... (I am usually a lucky player, though :D)

Sorry but there is already a thread for whining about dwarfs located here:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231384

Please leave this thread for whining about skaven.

Melkirich
04-12-2009, 23:09
What would you suggest a WoC player do then?

As a Skaven and Chaos Warrior player I'd suggest using Marauder Horsemen with throwing axes.

Each unit throwing axes will on average do .55 wounds a turn (5 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 5's, regenerating on 4's) which isn't much, but all you're really doing is softening it up for magic/combat.

Also, don't forget the Slaanesh Sorcerer with Hellshriek, used in conjunction with well placed fast cav' has about a 1/3 chance of auto-killing, (or 1/2 if it's a slaanesh lord with Diabolic Splendour): it worked against Hydras and it will work against Abominations too!

Poseidal
04-12-2009, 23:17
As a Skaven and Chaos Warrior player I'd suggest using Marauder Horsemen with throwing axes.

Each unit throwing axes will on average do .55 wounds a turn (5 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 5's, regenerating on 4's) which isn't much, but all you're really doing is softening it up for magic/combat.

Also, don't forget the Slaanesh Sorcerer with Hellshriek, used in conjunction with well placed fast cav' has about a 1/3 chance of auto-killing, (or 1/2 if it's a slaanesh lord with Diabolic Splendour): it worked against Hydras and it will work against Abominations too!

Hitting on 4s, actually. 0.41 wounds, but you end up 6" away from something that has an effective 360 degree charge.

Lord Inquisitor
04-12-2009, 23:36
average do .55 wounds a turn (5 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 5's, regenerating on 4's) which isn't much, but all you're really doing is softening it up for magic/combat.
So after the abomination eats 11 units of marauder horsemen, you should be able to kill it with the twelfth? :eyebrows:;):p

Xynok
05-12-2009, 00:04
There's a load of fun things in the book, though I never had a problem with the mainstay rule. Annoyed at the shoot at your own people thing being removed too...

Still it's a fun book, some good fun things in it which is nice to see. Tonnes of rules gaps though it's actually rediculous.... If it's not geared for 8th then it's reallly badly written.

Dungeon_Lawyer
05-12-2009, 00:45
Other than the storm banner I have no gripes with the book. I played an opponent in a mega battle and he had a furnace, HPA and doomwheel, but no stormbanner. I didn't have many troubles. His doomwheel spent like half the game shooting his own stuff and his HPA ran like a scared little girl form my skinks after I caused 3 wounds on 1 round of shooting, the plague furnace got in combat with my temple guard and only did about 2 wounds a round.

I could see the stormbanner being a total game breaker though, it effectively makes ranged and flying troops useless until you kill it, and if it's in an unbreakable unit that's gunna be hard. Other than that I don't see any problems in the skaven book that can't be dealt with, especially with their penchant for blowing themselves up.

kill that rat holding it? Lore of metal--rule of burning iron the bearer or commandment of brass to nullify the banner?

Poseidal
05-12-2009, 09:08
kill that rat holding it? Lore of metal--rule of burning iron the bearer or commandment of brass to nullify the banner?

If it's in an unbreakable unit, then it's not going to be on a BSB (as he can't join it) so it's either on Plague Monks with a Furnace or Stormvermin with a Bell.

If you Rule of Burning Iron it, as per the command rule wouldn't another rat be assumed to pick up the banner? (as it's not a character/champion model).

If you use Law of Gold he could reveal an item on his Grey Seer or Plague Priest... something like a Warpstone token or anything else.

Melkirich
05-12-2009, 11:14
Hitting on 4s, actually. 0.41 wounds, but you end up 6" away from something that has an effective 360 degree charge.
Throwing weapons get no modifiers for range or movement and +1 for large target, did I miss something?


So after the abomination eats 11 units of marauder horsemen, you should be able to kill it with the twelfth? :eyebrows:;):p
lol, yes, if the fast cavalry decide to hold, but I usually prefer to make mine flee in cases like this, if nothing else the fast cavalry have kept the abomination away from your warriors and knights for a turn, and in a 6 turn game that's not bad.

Admittedly marauder horsemen are no-where near as useful vs the Abomination as bolt-throwers/cannons with fire runes... But when playing Chaos Warriors vs a big monster you don't really have a lot of options.

Poseidal
05-12-2009, 11:46
Throwing weapons get no modifiers for range or movement and +1 for large target, did I miss something?


Forgot the large target bonus, you're right; though I still don't think it's an effective option. Fleeing from it at 6" away means they run a reasonably risk of just getting caught.

fubukii
05-12-2009, 13:20
Forgot the large target bonus, you're right; though I still don't think it's an effective option. Fleeing from it at 6" away means they run a reasonably risk of just getting caught.

average flee roll on 3d6 is 10-11 inches + the 5-6 inch range = roughly 15-16 inches away from the abom.... who would be hard pressed to move 15+ inches in a single turn to say the least.

Poseidal
05-12-2009, 13:39
average flee roll on 3d6 is 10-11 inches + the 5-6 inch range = roughly 15-16 inches away from the abom.... who would be hard pressed to move 15+ inches in a single turn to say the least.

On average, you're not catching them, true. But you're not slowing down the Abomination in any way with them (unless you want it to eat them, in which you can redirect it). In fact, with the amount of wounds they cause it'll hit your slower units and does well to totally ignore the horsemen.

danny-d-b
05-12-2009, 14:12
by the sounds of it my nugle army has nothing that will kill an aboniation

I think the possibly closesed is combi charged it with knights, drogers and a giant, and hope one of my 3 wizzards gets the regen spell off

yep I'm going to have to throw 1500 points of my army (rest is marrauders, an exatled, horsemen and dogs) to kill something worth 235??

that sounds fair

Lord Inquisitor
05-12-2009, 16:32
Of course, perhaps the best unit to take on an Abomination is the humble bretonnian peasant. At 125 points for 20 with bows and flaming arrows, you can have two of these units for the cost of the abom. These guys will take down the abom in three turns of shooting, easily. Since it's a large target, they can rank up and all models can still shoot (a neat little trick my bretonnian opponent has used against my greater daemons). Two units of these guys will kill an Abomination outright (and no pesky getting up again) in one turn at 11% chance, in two turns at 66% probability and by three turns the chance the abom is dead is 94%.

As long as the bretonnian player can actually restrain the urge to charge the abomination with his knights, he should be good.

Foegnasher
05-12-2009, 18:13
Of course, perhaps the best unit to take on an Abomination is the humble bretonnian peasant. At 125 points for 20 with bows and flaming arrows, you can have two of these units for the cost of the abom. These guys will take down the abom in three turns of shooting, easily. Since it's a large target, they can rank up and all models can still shoot (a neat little trick my bretonnian opponent has used against my greater daemons). Two units of these guys will kill an Abomination outright (and no pesky getting up again) in one turn at 11% chance, in two turns at 66% probability and by three turns the chance the abom is dead is 94%.

As long as the bretonnian player can actually restrain the urge to charge the abomination with his knights, he should be good.

which is why as long as im fielding the a-bomb, i will ALWAYS bring the stormbanner.

Dungeon_Lawyer
05-12-2009, 19:20
If it's in an unbreakable unit, then it's not going to be on a BSB (as he can't join it) so it's either on Plague Monks with a Furnace or Stormvermin with a Bell.

If you Rule of Burning Iron it, as per the command rule wouldn't another rat be assumed to pick up the banner? (as it's not a character/champion model).

If you use Law of Gold he could reveal an item on his Grey Seer or Plague Priest... something like a Warpstone token or anything else.

Yeah-thats why I had question marks next to my posts, since I havent read the new book yet. I was not sure of the the banners cost and wether only a bsb could take it---By your post I assume other units can afford /have access to taking the storm-banner?

Can gray seers or P.priests hae additonal magic equipment beyond a magic standard? Again Im speaking from ignorance just brainstorming here...

Poseidal
05-12-2009, 19:26
Yeah-thats why I had question marks next to my posts, since I havent read the new book yet. I was not sure of the the banners cost and wether only a bsb could take it---By your post I assume other units can afford /have access to taking the storm-banner?

Can gray seers or P.priests hae additonal magic equipment beyond a magic standard? Again Im speaking from ignorance just brainstorming here...

They can't take magic standards themselves, but they can be a unit with a magic standard (on the standard standard bearer). If he has some normal magic items, like some power stones, dispel scrolls etc, then he can reveal one of those when Law of Gold is cast on the unit.

sroblin
05-12-2009, 20:36
I think it's hilarious that so many arguments in defense of the HPA go like this: "yawn...all you have to do is use one of the BEST UNITS IN THE GAME and you'll win more than half the time (if you charge.)" Or "naw, the the HPA is actually not quite as good as ONE OF THE BEST UNITS IN THE GAME. No sweat for me." In addition to the sillines factor of arguments that go "if my bloodthirster can kill it, I don't see why anyone is complaining', the utility of these strategies is particularly low when you're talking about a unit available to one or two army books.

But seriously, the reason why Hydras and Chaos Knights, Bloodthirsters, Blood Keep knights etc. keep coming up is that the HPA and PCBs are another example of super-high damage output units that have been showing up in fantasy army books lately. These units will generally annhilate any regular, average unit they hit pretty thoroughly, which means they only end up getting compared to other crazy-powerful units in their class.

Realistically, the best counter-strategies are not going to meet their strengths head on, but defeat them with regard to movement and shooting. One flavor of ultimate-close-combat death is not really that different from another in the end, the best result is to out-maneuver and neutralize at range if possible.

Awilla the Hun
05-12-2009, 21:01
Of course, perhaps the best unit to take on an Abomination is the humble bretonnian peasant. At 125 points for 20 with bows and flaming arrows, you can have two of these units for the cost of the abom. These guys will take down the abom in three turns of shooting, easily. Since it's a large target, they can rank up and all models can still shoot (a neat little trick my bretonnian opponent has used against my greater daemons). Two units of these guys will kill an Abomination outright (and no pesky getting up again) in one turn at 11% chance, in two turns at 66% probability and by three turns the chance the abom is dead is 94%.

As long as the bretonnian player can actually restrain the urge to charge the abomination with his knights, he should be good.

Thank you, Comrade Lord Inquisitor! I will be sure to try and hunt down the Under-Imperialist with his despicable banner as soon as possible. (Is that not what Pegasus Knights/Communications Commissariat are for?) I happen to have three units of archers with braziers, which may well add sufficient weight of fire to counter this Magocratic sorcery. Or, failling that, a lucky trebuchet stone to the head could deal with it.

fubukii
05-12-2009, 22:05
I think it's hilarious that so many arguments in defense of the HPA go like this: "yawn...all you have to do is use one of the BEST UNITS IN THE GAME and you'll win more than half the time (if you charge.)" Or "naw, the the HPA is actually not quite as good as ONE OF THE BEST UNITS IN THE GAME. No sweat for me." In addition to the sillines factor of arguments that go "if my bloodthirster can kill it, I don't see why anyone is complaining', the utility of these strategies is particularly low when you're talking about a unit available to one or two army books.

But seriously, the reason why Hydras and Chaos Knights, Bloodthirsters, Blood Keep knights etc. keep coming up is that the HPA and PCBs are another example of super-high damage output units that have been showing up in fantasy army books lately. These units will generally annhilate any regular, average unit they hit pretty thoroughly, which means they only end up getting compared to other crazy-powerful units in their class.

Realistically, the best counter-strategies are not going to meet their strengths head on, but defeat them with regard to movement and shooting. One flavor of ultimate-close-combat death is not really that different from another in the end, the best result is to out-maneuver and neutralize at range if possible.

People just have to except that this is the direction that fantasy is going, all the new books have this, so why shouldnt skaven? In fact to suddenly stop this trend wouldnt be fair to the other armies. There have been plenty of ways to deal with it, or help lessen the dmg it does i suggest follow them instead of whining, as the HPA/DOOMWHEEL/PCB arent going anywhere fast.

A quick recap of things armies have that are effective vs HPA and you may have to use them in tangent with one another but thats called using tactics :)
DOC - Flamers, Thristers, Any model with flaming cc attacks, flickering fire, bolt of change, Lord of change, etc,
Vc - blood knights, zombie tarpits, skel tarpits, Banshee screams, frost blade char, Wraiths assuming it doesnt have the MR1 upgrade, Unit with flaming banner
DE - Dragonlords, RBT, mass rxb shots, Manbane/rending stars, Black guard (though depending on who charged they may take a hurtin, but lets be honest the chars kill everything before it swings anyway lol), Hydras, units buffed be cauldron of blood, harpies redirecting, lore of fire.
Skaven - WLC, Doomwheel, wither then PCB charge, another HPA :D
LM - razodons, Lore of fire, Units with hero, can finish it with eotg/warpsear charge, Skinks
HE - Lore of fire, RBT, star dragon, some other options if you dont get charged.
Empire - cannons, Steam tanks, Handguns, crossbows, Outriders, Pistoliers, Lore fire, certain lore of light spells
Dwarves - Heroes, Bolt throwers, cannons, organ guns, Thunderers, Crossbows, Anvil
Brets - flaming arrows :D, Killing blow lance vs large targets
WOc - knights preferably with mark, Lighthorse with mok, Flickering fire, gateway


The only armies that cant really deal with it at all are..

We - massed bow fire?, hail of doom arrow? (wood elves always have had trouble vs large monsters of any kind), spirit sword highborne?
OK - Leadhblechers?, TYrant with tenderizer?
TK - scc, posioned bows?
orcs - bolt throwers.... lots of them :)

Storak
05-12-2009, 22:34
fubukii, your argument is circular.

"the new army needs overpowered stuff, because other armies have it as well"

and

"overpowered stuff from older armies can still beat it"

what you describe is the very basis of power creep.

the list you wrote above, in parts, is a pretty good summary, of what is wrong with WHFB.

but still, the pretty broken chaos knights will not win the fight against the abomination, as we showed before...

fubukii
05-12-2009, 23:36
I think my intentions are being misunderstood storak, i am not saying that its right that these particular units are better then all other units of the same type ( we justh ave to accept it and deal), but i am just listing ways to deal with this monster, and try to say that its not the unstoppable onslaught people make it out to be although it can be a very powerful combat force.

As i have stated before i am a mostly competitive tournament player, although i do play casual(friendly) games as well. In my gaming enviroment the above units are extremely common, and as opposed to complaining about such units i find ways to over come them. Every army minus the LOW tier/outdated armies of things of similar power. In fact i wish all armies were more internally balanced but for some reasons most books have worthless units (minus the top army books who only have subpar units). In closing the abom is strong, its not unkillable, with proper tactics and the right tools you can dismantle it, but hey it may come back to life >.< ( i admit that rule is op when it works but oh well at least its only on a 6)

Kievien
05-12-2009, 23:41
WOc - knights preferably with mark, Lighthorse with mok, Flickering fire, gateway, Glaive of Putrefication

Added a little for ya.
Grtz. Kiev

StarFyreXXX
06-12-2009, 00:25
I love the skaven book but cancelled plans to do a skaven army....

I like the book alot more than the lizardmen book...about as much the Warriors of Chaos book...(which i think is great)

I think the best thing about is the options..lots of units, without restrictions can do many combinations of things. The core, in large groups are very good, especially with the screaming bell...and the rare slots (not sure on catapult) are sickening... Add to that the option of 2 lores (which are both fluff) and it's all win.

Sanjay

taughttoxique
06-12-2009, 02:37
Anyone knows a place where I can download the rulebook without all the troups infos? I just want to read the skavens cool story hehe

Zarroc
06-12-2009, 03:19
Go buy the book, and support the hobby :rolleyes:

Going to be sweet playing a plague furnace and duel doom wheel list ^^ a doom wheel would be able to pwn a hell pit any day lol, let alone majority of other big units and it comes in at 150 points, thats a bargain, for what it can do :D

Lord Inquisitor
06-12-2009, 03:59
I've not yet faced a doomwheel, but on paper I don't quite know why anyone would take one over an Abomination. It's a lot cheaper, I grant you, and it has T6 and it can shoot - but otherwise it seems very inferior. It can't charge 360-degrees, it doesn't have regenerate, it's only Ld7 and not stubborn and it can't put out anywhere near the horrendous damage output that the HPA can. It's just a big, scary, shooty chariot, but unless you are very lucky, it can't really stand up to a fully ranked elite unit. It can't even hurt a T6 or higher unit except with shooting and impact hits.

The HPA on the other hand terrifies me because I can't sneak round it, and it can destroy everything from monsters, heroes and virtually any kind of unit you care to throw at it.

Really, the one thing that really marks the HPA as overpowered to me is the 360-degree charge arc. Virtually every other game-dominating monster-type thing (greater daemons, stanks, hydra) can be outmaneuvered, baited or misdirected. The HPA cannot, meaning that it can reliably deny a 10" (potentially 18") radius around itself - either you take it head on, or you are at the mercy of its random charge distance. With two HPAs you can control a huge portion of the board.

Not saying that the HPA is unbeatable, but it dominates the table in a way that few models can. The hydra is similar, while you can circumvent its charge arc, it can simply breathe fire all over units that get close. It's an area-denial force of nature - and its randomness actually helps it here. Sure, it may move an average of 10" and it might not move at all - but am I prepared to wager that it won't stampede 18"?

The Doomwheel? Meh, it's a big scary chariot. I can deal with that.

Foegnasher
06-12-2009, 05:20
well, for the orcs, dont forget "Mork wants ya." where you take d6 str 10 hits. that will polish off just about anything.

Storak
06-12-2009, 08:08
well, for the orcs, dont forget "Mork wants ya." where you take d6 str 10 hits. that will polish off just about anything.

not the abomination. with ini 4, you only have a 1/3 chance of scoring wounds. regeneration will reduce the wounds taken to 1.5 on average.

so you will do about 0.5 wounds, with the average successful cast of a 10+ spell with a GOBBO...

Zarroc
06-12-2009, 09:03
Ive been reading alot of skaven list that include a HPA, would actaully love to start seeing all these players conversions/model there using for the HPA, if a gamer couldnt bring a decent model to the board, and trys to field a empty base, id laugh my *** of at im, and have him rewrite a list, we actaully models he can field

yorch
06-12-2009, 10:37
Inquisitor, Doomwheels have 360 charge also... In fact it's movement is better than HPAs because they can pivot freely (charriot-like movement).

But what makes doomdwheels stand out is shooting... they on average inflict 3 S6 D6 wounds hits to the nearst target, and that can be very nasty.

And, unlike the abom, they can charge in combat with allied unites, because they don't attack them.


Of course an HPA is better, but it cost also 66% more. You can play dual doomwheels and still make massive armies...

Zarroc
06-12-2009, 10:58
Inquisitor, Doomwheels have 360 charge also... In fact it's movement is better than HPAs because they can pivot freely (charriot-like movement).

But what makes doomdwheels stand out is shooting... they on average inflict 3 S6 D6 wounds hits to the nearst target, and that can be very nasty.

And, unlike the abom, they can charge in combat with allied unites, because they don't attack them.


Of course an HPA is better, but it cost also 66% more. You can play dual doomwheels and still make massive armies...

Exactly the reason i intend to make a duel doom wheel list ^^ The shooting can absolutely devastate any multi wound model, with out actaully getting into combat with it, id rather shoot a DE black dragon or hydra, then attempt to beat one in combat...... regardless of how good the HPA may be......

Lord Inquisitor
06-12-2009, 15:54
Inquisitor, Doomwheels have 360 charge also... In fact it's movement is better than HPAs because they can pivot freely (charriot-like movement).
I would direct your attention to this thread here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233199), where the rules for the Doomwheel are discussed. The one thing we can all agree on is that the rules are extremely badly written!

However, to recap briefly:
-> The Hell Pit Abomination states that you choose a direction, and then if while moving you hit an enemy unit, you count as charging. The Doomwheel does not.*
-> The Doomwheel states that other than the listed exceptions, the Doomwheel moves like a chariot. This includes 1) declaring a charge and 2) being able to see your target, just like a normal chariot.*

*The Doomwheel does state that when moving Out of Control, if it hits an enemy unit it counts as charging, but this does appear to explicitly only for OOC moves.

So while I'd welcome a FAQ to confim this (who even knows what the author's intent was in the middle of all those exceptions and special rules?), for the time being it does appear that the Doomwheel does need to both see and declare a charge against its foes.

Which of course brings us back to my no#1 gripe with the new skaven armybook. It's an overcomplicated mess of unnecessary special rules. Virtually every unit or model has a host of special rules and many units seem to have special rules for the sake of them (e.g. the HPA or Doomwheel!). 40K seems to have been moving in the same direction. I personally think this is a very bad thing - an elegant wargame is a simple one. I've played several experienced Skaven players recently who are trying to get to grips with the new book and "oh, I forgot about this special rule" or "we should have done it this way" tend to crop up very often.


Of course an HPA is better, but it cost also 66% more. You can play dual doomwheels and still make massive armies...
That's another thing. Two HPAs would eat into the unit count of any normal army - but we're talking skaven! You could buy two HPAs and still have a massive army! :D



Ive been reading alot of skaven list that include a HPA, would actaully love to start seeing all these players conversions/model there using for the HPA, if a gamer couldnt bring a decent model to the board, and trys to field a empty base, id laugh my *** of at im, and have him rewrite a list, we actaully models he can field

I saw a very nice looking HPA at the last tournament I went to. Wasn't painted, but it looked huge and dribbly enough. I was impressed. Indeed, the prospect of being able to create such a model alone is almost enough to make me consider starting a Skaven army, regardless of the :cheese: factor (pun intended!) :D

GuyLeCheval
06-12-2009, 18:59
I just came back from a tournament. 750+750 double teams. So I brought a HPA which cost me about 1/3 of my army. But as I had converted it, I really wanted to game with it and see how strong it really is.

First battle he got pwned by 9 grail knights. not a really good start, but to be expected. Not to self, don't make up plans with the HPA as random movement destroy those.

Second battle it solely crushed 600 pts of DE :D And it didn't die in the end.

Third battle it ate 20 longbeards + a dwarf hero and another 10 warriors before it was shot down by a flaming cannonball.

All in all it is indeed really strong, but it's not unbeatable. Random movement just ruin your best laid plans, and 1-2 isn't that good against elves either...

But you are in big trouble if you don't have the right tools to defeat it.

So when you all are playing against Skaven, use something that destroys large targets. Preferably with flaming attacks.

unwanted
07-12-2009, 00:45
To drag this discussion back from Hell Pit or whatever abyss it has been in for the last 8 pages, I'll give you my perception of the ARMYBOOK, rather than one or two models I may not even be using...

All in all, I am very fond of the opportunities afforded by the new book, especially the new weapon teams and increased flexibility for heroes and lords that comes with the Scavenge Pile. The removal of some of the restrictions are very nice, particularly fond of multiple units of Swarms and Stormvermin, although all the competitives will be weeping at the mere suggestion...

On the downside, I think it was a mistake to increase the LD of the Grey Seer, and I think the Gutter Runners and Night Runners lost a lot of potential. The complete abusability of some units is annoying, but I can ascertain that you won't see me doing the whole double-team rutine in any way, shape or form, but that's because I play for love of the dirty rats, rather than any desire to out-cheese the cheesiest. And last, the Magic Items got culled rather severely, while the inclusion of more wacky, Clan-specific items was really characterful. I will still miss my Bands of Power/Blade of Black Fury Warlord.

Lord Inquisitor
07-12-2009, 00:52
you won't see me doing the whole double-team rutine in any way, shape or form, but that's because I play for love of the dirty rats, rather than any desire to out-cheese the cheesiest.
To be fair, if anyone were to out-cheese the cheesiest, it would probably be a dirty rat. :D

Kuroi
07-12-2009, 01:06
Sigh, I actually forgot the hydra I use for a HPA aswell as my Doomwheel at home today when I went to a mtes house to have a game ><. Ended up using a Warp lightning cannon and a plagueclaw catapult against an OnG player (aswell as a plague priest on a furnace :3).
Some of the highlights included the Cannon taking out the Orc BSB's chariot, and later my plague furnace unit bumbed into a unit with orcs, an orc hero on a boar, the previously mentioned BSB and a lvl 4 orc shaman <.< Smashed their heads in and ran them into the ground xD.
It's only been 2 games where I actually got to use the plague furnace but I'm really enjoying it :3.

unwanted
07-12-2009, 01:43
To be fair, if anyone were to out-cheese the cheesiest, it would probably be a dirty rat. :D

Yes-yes, that's obviously the case, but that was not the point :p

Zarroc
07-12-2009, 07:49
I just came back from a tournament. 750+750 double teams. So I brought a HPA which cost me about 1/3 of my army. But as I had converted it, I really wanted to game with it and see how strong it really is.

First battle he got pwned by 9 grail knights. not a really good start, but to be expected. Not to self, don't make up plans with the HPA as random movement destroy those.

Second battle it solely crushed 600 pts of DE :D And it didn't die in the end.

Third battle it ate 20 longbeards + a dwarf hero and another 10 warriors before it was shot down by a flaming cannonball.

All in all it is indeed really strong, but it's not unbeatable. Random movement just ruin your best laid plans, and 1-2 isn't that good against elves either...

But you are in big trouble if you don't have the right tools to defeat it.

So when you all are playing against Skaven, use something that destroys large targets. Preferably with flaming attacks.

Dont suppose you could post pics of your HPA conversions?

GuyLeCheval
07-12-2009, 16:14
Dont suppose you could post pics of your HPA conversions?

Of course I can. When I've the time, so maybe this evening I'll post a pic on the other HPA thread here in general!