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Krueger Condail
28-11-2009, 18:35
So with the new release of the skaven my lil brother is interested in starting up fantasy again but he really wants to use the vermin lord and when I took a look at the rules I don't really think it was that great what is the communities opinion on it and the new skaven in general

AtmaTheWanderer
28-11-2009, 19:22
So with the new release of the skaven my lil brother is interested in starting up fantasy again but he really wants to use the vermin lord and when I took a look at the rules I don't really think it was that great what is the communities opinion on it and the new skaven in general

I like the new Skaven a lot. The new additions like the Doomwheel and Hellpit Abomination are good, but they're not scary broken like a lot of things that come out these days are. The nerf to Jezzails, while harsh, was necessary - they were just too good before. The Bell making a unit unbreakable is amazing.

As for the Vermin Lord, I've never run it and probably never will. It's inability to join units and inability to be the general make it an unusable piece in my eyes - Skaven need that leadership 7 more then any army in the game.

Krueger Condail
28-11-2009, 21:58
So if you had to reccomend some new things for him to bring to the table what would u reccomend

Zarroc
28-11-2009, 23:59
Duel doom wheels, plague furnace, dont waste your time with the vermin lord, its utterly useless

Throw in lots of plague censor bearers and the storm banner, and watch people panic ^^

Buddha777
29-11-2009, 00:02
Not sure how you guys think a Keeper of Secrets lite is not just a god send. Its a lvl 4 wizard that's fast and deadly as hell.

Zarroc
29-11-2009, 00:04
Not sure how you guys think a Keeper of Secrets lite is not just a god send. Its a lvl 4 wizard that's fast and deadly as hell.

Its a total waste of points, and uber fragile, woot a toughness 5 large target with a 5 plus ward save

sulla
29-11-2009, 00:25
Its a total waste of points, and uber fragile, woot a toughness 5 large target with a 5 plus ward save...in an army that can easily be built to take out the Vermin lord's ranged threats, letting it pick favourable fights.

Just because it isn't the best lord option in the list, doesn't make it garbage. Build your list around it and you will reap rewards. Chuck it into a standard skaven army and watch it get shot down in turn one or two or spend the entire battle hiding behind a tree.

Zarroc
29-11-2009, 08:38
...in an army that can easily be built to take out the Vermin lord's ranged threats, letting it pick favourable fights.

Just because it isn't the best lord option in the list, doesn't make it garbage. Build your list around it and you will reap rewards. Chuck it into a standard skaven army and watch it get shot down in turn one or two or spend the entire battle hiding behind a tree.

Regardless if you build your list around it, still a no go, only in large friendly games were it would be for kicks would any decent player use it, you want a greater deamon, build a DoC army, vermin lords blow....

Wednesday Friday Addams
29-11-2009, 08:41
Let him use the models he thinks are cool it's alot more fun then optimization hammer.

Foegnasher
29-11-2009, 15:25
no lie. play with what you like, and make it work. you can show up with 4 units of pcbs, two doomwheels and a plethora of poison wind launchers. if you want to be a min-maxing punk.

or you can pick the things you love and play with them. use what you like, disregard the rest. the book is flexible and there's more than one way to play. i perfer horde tactics. but you could go gunline, magic heavy, or tons of gadgets and gizmos.

horde is best though. 300+ mooks ftw.

enygma7
29-11-2009, 17:34
I've only seen the vermin lord used once and yes, it did suck (it got challenged by someone with the pendent of khaeleth, ran away and got shot). However, seeing the bashing it is getting here I feel I must defend it, especially as I'm planning on using one myself.

Yes, it is fragile and can break. You need to combine it with the storm banner and capability for getting rid of the enemies ranged threats like clan eshin troops. You also need to be careful about the combats you pick - you can't just put it into the front and expect to win. Pick on small, vulnerable targets like missile troops and war machines or hit the flanks in support of another unit.

If all that sounds a little unimpressive in such an expensive model then consider both that the vermin lord is extremely fast and mobile and so *can* pick his fights and also that he is a level 4 sorcerer with access to plague spells - all of which are super deadly at short range. Only the vermin lord has the mobility to pull them off properly. Get on the enemies flanks and unleash vermintide (comboed with wither perhaps) or pestilent breath, or run into the middle of his army and let off cloud of corruption.

Basically, treat him like a combat monster great daemon and he will suck, but properly supported in a magic heavy army and used intelligently I can see him being amazing. No other skaven wizard option has the ability to get quite so much out of the plague list.

sulla
29-11-2009, 17:55
Basically, treat him like a combat monster great daemon and he will suck, but properly supported in a magic heavy army and used intelligently I can see him being amazing. No other skaven wizard option has the ability to get quite so much out of the plague list.

...Pretty obvious from this post that some players just can't play the game like this. If they pay that many points for a single model, they want to run it straight up the field shouting, "HULK SMASH!" every turn.

Foegnasher
29-11-2009, 20:50
...Pretty obvious from this post that some players just can't play the game like this. If they pay that many points for a single model, they want to run it straight up the field shouting, "HULK SMASH!" every turn.

around here, we call them demon players.

skaven require tactics and cunning in everything they do.

even thier expensive demon -rat-thingy.

Taishar
29-11-2009, 22:42
It's playable, but certainly not the best choice. As mentioned, it requires some tactics to use well. You should be looking for combats you can destroy, and flanks. He's pretty nasty against multiwound models with the D3 wounds.


Cheers

PeG
29-11-2009, 23:03
the new skaven seems like a solid choice. They are capable of cheesy lists if you want to go that way but you can also build a lot of different versions of a friendly list. This gives good possibilitis for variation. for example they can build a l horde list, a list with lots of warmachines, a list with rather few models and several T6 units (doomwheels, abdominations, furnaces etc).

GenerationTerrorist
30-11-2009, 00:55
I've played against them recently with my WoC. My opponent used 2 Doomwheels and 3 massive (35+) units of Clan Rats and some other funky stuff. Some banner/item/spell (I forget which it was) he had made my Disc Rider find that Gravity was his worst enemy. Was a really really fun and quirky game. My Knights killed scores of his Rats but the little furry buggers would not run away. Ever! Then one of his units went frenzied and blew up after eating my Giant :-)

I really hope to play them again soon because it was a total hoot and both of us were in tears at times from laughing so much.

skavenSte
30-11-2009, 09:25
I used the Vermin Lord in one of my games just to see how he fared (2kpts). And it wasn't a pleasing result. He got magically charged by a chaos lord and lost the resulting combat and fled. then he rallied and got charged again, lost the combat, ran, rallied, charged again lost and died. all in the first four turns.
It was probably my own fault for deploying him out on the flank but thats by-the-by.
If you're gonna take a Virmin lord then only take one in a 3000+pts battle, that way the rest of your army are not gonna feel the sting of his massive 500pts. Try using him in conjunction with a doomwheel and getting them behind the enemy lines and close enough for the enemy to have to take them terror tests on the off chance that some of the units will fail. if your timings right then you should have some slaves or clanrats infront of the scared enemy units and if they flee far enough they'll run into and consequently get wiped out without you having to fight a combat. If this tactic works then the Virmin lord could quite easily earn his points back.