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NovaScotius
29-11-2009, 09:48
Hi all,

Looking at adding an airborne wing to my Guard in the shape of some Elysians. As the best way of fielding them appears to be Veterans inside Valkyries, with plenty of Melta Guns to boot!

Now... the only issue with Elysians is their under-abundance of Melta Guns in their regular infantry squads, and the rather odd situation of their two-man Melta Gun teams!

So, looking for a solution, I found these...

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/elylascutters.htm

Those are Las-Cutters, which I think could stand-in as Melta Guns for the list... But I was wondering whether generally people would be cool with me using them as such (Obviously, I would explain to my opponent before the game, and will be using Codex: Imperial Guard to represent the army!).

Alternatively, does anyone know how easy Elysians are to convert to have real Melta Guns from the weapons pack, or is it a nightmare?

Thanks!

TGaunt
29-11-2009, 10:09
the weapon pack you mentioned is the solution. Providing you have the skill to try out an all FW army, switching weapons should not be any problem to you.

meno1
29-11-2009, 10:27
Wow these have great detail! Only issue I'd be worried about if I was you is cost, as I don't see anyone having issues if you explain beforehand. Not sure on the scale of the weapons pack to the scale of these models, but it'd look better with the proper meltaguns IMO. Plus those lascutters would make awesome hellguns! Good luck and have fun:D

NovaScotius
29-11-2009, 10:34
meno1... you fiend! I never considered using the Lascutters as Hot-Shot Lasguns! Well that solves the problem of getting Storm Trooper models!

meno1
29-11-2009, 11:25
Hell, why buy stormtroopers when you can convert! Jeez, I just looked at the other Elysian models as well as DKoK on FW, now I want to start a regiment of each!! And here I was, thinking I'd only do two IG armies (not counting traitor guard). A bit dissapointing the squads only come with limited special weapons though:(

Kriegfreak
29-11-2009, 11:29
You can also always use Death Korp of Krieg weapons pack. With some green stuffing and cutting it shouldn't be to bad. Combined with the Elysian pack and regular guard bits, I'd say your good to go.

Personally I think the weapons are unique looking enough to represent melta-guns so long as you notify your opponent beforehand.

Have done plenty of Death Korp conversions (basically the same; resin guard) it CAN be a pain. The extra work is always worth it though in the end. The easiest conversions to do were the weapon swaps - so don't be intimidated. Just make sure you have green-stuff for gap filling. Tamiya putty and other gap fillers that go on more like a wet concrete work wonderful as well.

As an aside... don't hate to much on Plasma-Guns, those things can put out some hurt to!

DaSpaceAsians
29-11-2009, 12:44
If you read the IA3: Taros Campaign, there's a little something about lascutters in the Tau Auxillary Force that would interest you. I would divulge more if it's not against the rules.

Spacker
29-11-2009, 13:29
Now... the only issue with Elysians is their under-abundance of Melta Guns in their regular infantry squads, and the rather odd situation of their two-man Melta Gun teams!

It's not odd - they're Special Weapon teams, which get 3 Meltaguns per 6 man squad. That's not only a hangover from the 3rd ed IG codex, which the Elysian list is based on, but that same unit is still in the 5th ed IG codex too on page 97 (albeit now attached to infantry platoons rather than command platoons).


Alternatively, does anyone know how easy Elysians are to convert to have real Melta Guns from the weapons pack, or is it a nightmare?

I've used the Elysian meltaguns on some Cadians, as they have no arms/hands already attached they're not hard to use. You shouldn't have much trouble using them on Elysian infantry as that's what they're intended to be used with. Certainly would be a better choice than the Death Korp weapon pack suggested by Kriegfreak as half of the weapons in that set have DK arms/hands attached that would also need to be removed, plus the weapon designs don't fit with the rest of the Elysian models.

If you don't want to do much converting, how many Elysians were you thinking of using? If two squads of 10 with 3 meltas in each, you could buy 2 Elysian meltagun teams, and 1 Elysian infantry squad - that gives you 6 meltaguns, 1 grenade launcher, and 15 lasgunners (including the sgt), which you could split into two 10 man squads with 3 meltas each, and you'd have 2 men spare (although you'd have to proxy laspistols for the sgts). If you were only going to use one squad, then you could get a Melta squad plus a command squad, and that would give you a total of 11 men (the spare one being the extra melta from the command squad). In both cases, conversion is either not necessary or minimal (pistols for the sgts).

NovaScotius
29-11-2009, 14:52
It's not odd - they're Special Weapon teams, which get 3 Meltaguns per 6 man squad. That's not only a hangover from the 3rd ed IG codex, which the Elysian list is based on, but that same unit is still in the 5th ed IG codex too on page 97 (albeit now attached to infantry platoons rather than command platoons).

I meant that it's a little irritating that two of the Melta Gun operators are in prone positions, and share a 60mm base with another Guardsman. I don't deny they're special weapon teams, I'm just put out about the models - The prone chaps with their larger base 'footprint' don't lend themselves to the idea of mobile infantry with short ranged weapons (In my opinion). Prone snipers and heavy weapons teams I understand, but prone chaps with melta guns?! :p

I think I may have to do some conversions... but I'll feel dirty, slicing up those lovely Forge World models :cries:

Bunnahabhain
29-11-2009, 17:21
Any infantryman who wishes to live will make full use of cover. Lying down isn't as good cover as a properly built defensive position, but it's alot better than standing about in the open. If you're going after a tank at close range, then lying down to take advantage of it's limited visibility, to let it get close before taking your shot makes sense- google panzerfaust tactics-. It's why tanks unsupported by infantry die.

Looking at the models, it should be easy enough to fit the prone guys onto 40mm or cavalry bases, or just sensible sized plasticard ones.
I recommend doing so, to get away from the rules problems of two separate guys on one base.

UrielSynthesis
29-11-2009, 19:14
Not to hijack or anything, but I'm starting elysians and can't find much info on that weapon pack.

Is it just like the picture, just weapons with no hands or anything? It would suck to have to do all that converting (since not just the handle but most of the stock of the lasrifles are part of the Elysians' right arm).

Kriegfreak
29-11-2009, 19:58
I think I may have to do some conversions... but I'll feel dirty, slicing up those lovely Forge World models :cries:

Don't feel dirty! A lovely converted Forge World model is a work of art man!

Petay1985
29-11-2009, 20:15
I have the makings of a small Elysian army and i have used the Elysian Weapons pack to convert some of my Elysians to carry Meltaguns, worked a treat, was straight forward really!! :) check out my log to see if you like!! :)

NovaScotius
29-11-2009, 20:25
Petay1985,

Just seen your awesome, awesome models. I posted in your army thread, asking to see a close up of your Melta Gun chap - Hope that's ok.

:)

Kriegfreak
29-11-2009, 20:30
Petay1985,

Just seen your awesome, awesome models. I posted in your army thread, asking to see a close up of your Melta Gun chap - Hope that's ok.

:)

Yes, quite the awesome Elysian log. Check out Bungaroo's as well. Between the two of those you should be set for inspiration.

AndrewGPaul
29-11-2009, 20:52
I recommend doing so, to get away from the rules problems of two separate guys on one base.

It's not a huge rules issue to overcome; draw LOS to each model individually rather than the base as a whole, and use spare dice or other counters to mark when one member of the team dies. Presumably that's how players with Steel Legion troops used them in 3rd and 4th editions.

Bunnahabhain
29-11-2009, 21:20
It's not a huge rules issue to overcome; draw LOS to each model individually rather than the base as a whole, and use spare dice or other counters to mark when one member of the team dies. Presumably that's how players with Steel Legion troops used them in 3rd and 4th editions.

I know it's not a huge problem, but unless you really like the look of them as they are, it is simpler to re-base them. Avoids having spare dice as markers that get picked up by accident, and assorted other minor difficulties...

Deamon-forge
29-11-2009, 21:25
the las cutte r squad is nice. i was going to use mine as stormtroopers but changed my mind at last min. a good kit.

Zanzibarthefirst
29-11-2009, 21:27
I have the same p[roblem but I'm putting the guys with meltaguns on bike bases apart from the one thats already single. That way you do not have the problem of two models on a base. As for the other 3 models that come in the packj I dont know to be honest, conversions maybe or jsut fillers for your squads

Rovert
29-11-2009, 23:07
Anyone got any idea if the d-99 vet rules can still be used or if they will update them to keep them in line with the 5th edition of the rules

Bunnahabhain
29-11-2009, 23:14
Anyone got any idea if the d-99 vet rules can still be used or if they will update them to keep them in line with the 5th edition of the rules


Yes they can be used, but are now showing their age.

FW will probably get round to updating them, they have done so for some of their Guard lists, but when is anybodies guess...

Onisuzume
30-11-2009, 00:03
If you read the IA3: Taros Campaign, there's a little something about lascutters in the Tau Auxillary Force that would interest you. I would divulge more if it's not against the rules.
There's a bit about it in IA4 as well.

FW will probably get round to updating them, they have done so for some of their Guard lists, but when is anybodies guess...
Well, they've done IA1 and 2 already, so one could expect IA4 a few months after the new tyranids are out... with IA3 following the tau release.

Lyonator
30-11-2009, 03:54
Providing you have the skill to try out an all FW army, switching weapons should not be any problem to you.
by skill you meant money, right?

Those elysians are cool models, same for most FW stuff...
I just wonder how much business they lose out on by not having more of a bitz approach.
(aka Lyon would be all over elysian heads but doesn't care for the backpacks that you also have to buy... thus, does his own heads.)

NovaScotius
30-11-2009, 08:20
(aka Lyon would be all over elysian heads but doesn't care for the backpacks that you also have to buy... thus, does his own heads.)

Lyon, they do a head pack - All of them are wearing respirators, but the heads do just come in a pack of 12.


So more on topic, does anyone have any pictures of converted Elysian Melta gunners?

MajorWesJanson
30-11-2009, 08:47
I have a bunch of melta gunners, but no pictures, sorry. they are still in the assembly phase. Elysians make up the Veteran squads of my army.

All Elysian special and heavy weapons are loose, except for flamers, and so the arms and guns are interchangable. you can take the plasma gunner model or grenade launcher and simply swap in melta guns easily.

As for the grav chutes, you can buy units with or without them model wise, and rules wise I don't know what function they have right now. I don't use them myself, I buy the versions of squads without grav chutes, save some money.

As for updated rules, I doubt it. Elysians are getting new models and a new rules set to match the guard codex in the next IA book.

Spacker
30-11-2009, 09:31
Anyone got any idea if the d-99 vet rules can still be used or if they will update them to keep them in line with the 5th edition of the rules

You can still use them, if your opponent lets you, although they are based on the 3rd ed codex so some options are a little overcosted in comparison to the new one. FW have stated numerous times that they will be updating all the existing IA hardback volumes with PDF releases to bring units/lists into line with 5th ed codexes, but as yet they've only done this with IAv1 and IAv2.

UrielSynthesis
30-11-2009, 09:53
All Elysian special and heavy weapons are loose, except for flamers, and so the arms and guns are interchangable. you can take the plasma gunner model or grenade launcher and simply swap in melta guns easily.

This confuses me slightly. No hands on the weapons and no arms in the weapon pack either? So far I've got one infantry squad of elysians and the one grenade launcher is part of the arm, not loose. Of course chopping off the launcher, cutting a hole in the melta's handle, and fitting it over the hand wouldn't be a huge deal. You'd just think that if you have to buy this big pack of weapons, you wouldn't have to perform surgery to use any of it and wouldn't need to get one of these one-out-of-ten-dudes grenade launcher arms for each special weapon you wanted to use (this is speaking purely in terms of buying infantry squads).

I guess buying the special weapon squads (flamers) and converting those would be the one nearly sensible way of doing this?


As for the grav chutes, you can buy units with or without them model wise, and rules wise I don't know what function they have right now. I don't use them myself, I buy the versions of squads without grav chutes, save some money.

Grav chutes have no rules (can only speak for actual codex). They aren't wargear for anyone, and are only mentioned in the "grav chute insertion" you can make when disembarking from a moving flat-out valkyrie. This is something that anything which can fit in a valkyrie automatically has the ability to do.

I ordered grav chutes and, although this is anecdotal experience, I advise against it. I sent back the first set for being wildly mis-cast and the second set is just as bad. They are coming out very brittle (the resin itself, not just because of the fine shape), and every single millimeter of every grav chute is either misaligned, warped, or missing big chunks of the actual material (maybe two of all twenty " exhaust nozzles" are actually intact). To fix them with putty would require the skills of the guy that sculpted them to begin with.

Now I could have gotten a bad batch, but this might be case of the mold reaching the end of it's life and needing replacement. I'm hoping this will happen for IA8.

Petay1985
30-11-2009, 10:53
'urielSynthasis' is quite corerct that the current Guard codex has no rules for Grav Chute, Imperial Armour 3 & 4 are the only rules left for them, thus Imperial Armour 8 is set to remedy this! Indeed grav chutes do not need to be modelled, as in theory the guardsmen takes it off on landing (much like a parachute) anyway, most because its heavy and encombersome.

In regards to replacing weapons with 'weapons pack' weapons i will talk you through an example:
Replacing Grenade Launcher with Meltagun - The grenade launcher is attached to the right arm, i simple cut the launcher from the hand, leaving behind the gun grip and trigger.
The for the meltagun i cut the grip and trigger off (exactly as you would with a standard plastic spacemarine meltagun) and then placed the meltagun on the arm. Fits like a peach :)
The left arm is a universal holding arm, thus simply has the meltagun rest on it. Hope that is as clear as mud :)

i will post some pics of my meltagun Elysians in the near future!

guillimansknight
30-11-2009, 16:44
No those lascutters look way too much like grenade launchers

NovaScotius
30-11-2009, 18:07
No those lascutters look way too much like grenade launchers

I don't see where you're coming from with this... compare them to the Grenade Launcher in the Weapons pack... they don't look even slightly similar?

UrielSynthesis
30-11-2009, 19:26
I dont mind cutting a grenade launcher off of a hand and replacing it with a meltagun.

What disappoints me is that you can spend good money on a weapon pack, but your number of special weapon guardsmen is still limited to how many you buy that already have special weapons to begin with!

If I want to get a 10 man vet squad with 3 meltas, I have to buy the weapon pack, plus a command squad (for the 3rd melta), plus a flamer squad (to get two additional special weapon arms). There is no good reason for that pack not to include arms so I can just put any weapon on any guardsman.

Or I can swallow my pride and buy melta-gunners that are lying down....

Petay1985
30-11-2009, 22:10
I dont mind cutting a grenade launcher off of a hand and replacing it with a meltagun.

What disappoints me is that you can spend good money on a weapon pack, but your number of special weapon guardsmen is still limited to how many you buy that already have special weapons to begin with!

If I want to get a 10 man vet squad with 3 meltas, I have to buy the weapon pack, plus a command squad (for the 3rd melta), plus a flamer squad (to get two additional special weapon arms). There is no good reason for that pack not to include arms so I can just put any weapon on any guardsman.

Or I can swallow my pride and buy melta-gunners that are lying down....


I quite agree with your sentiments. I must confess i really like the elysian melta teams, i think the lying down guardsmen with the melta bi pods are pretty ace!! :)
Combining them with a bike base works nicely!!

Imperius
30-11-2009, 22:15
Lascutters? Honestly, you would not even have to explain they are meltaguns, I would already assume they are.

Rovert
30-11-2009, 22:24
I was looking at doing a german panzer camo on my Valk and maybe a smaller version on my troops ....what do you think ?75847

Rovert
30-11-2009, 22:26
or maybe this ?75848 I think i preffer this actually :)

NovaScotius
30-11-2009, 22:49
Returning to the original topic, I've spent a little while looking at the Melta Gun teams... I don't know how many pieces the Elysians come in (Whether the arms are attached or not?), but do you guys think it would be possible to take the arms and gun off the prone guy (Provided they're not attached to the body), and put them on a crouching chap, then model a convenient piece of scenery for him to rest the bi-pod on?

It would look like a crouching guy taking cover behind a low wall or something, resting his Melta Gun on top and blasting away.

Sorry to be persistent in this, but I feel that the the infantry and veteran squads for the Elysians are very dynamic and appear to be in the middle of either running, landing or taking aim... I'm just not quite so sure how dynamic the prone chaps would be amongst a squad of fellows carrying out all kinds of faster-paced actions?

DaSpaceAsians
30-11-2009, 22:50
I just read my copy of the Taros Campaign and it says that lascutters count as melta guns.

NovaScotius
30-11-2009, 22:58
I just read my copy of the Taros Campaign and it says that lascutters count as melta guns.

Well that simplifies matters considerably!

I'm still interested in converting up some Melta Guns though... ah well - I guess I'll have both types in the Army!

DaSpaceAsians
30-11-2009, 23:05
Well that simplifies matters considerably!

I'm still interested in converting up some Melta Guns though... ah well - I guess I'll have both types in the Army!

It could be explained that your army was involved in a battle for a mining complex or something and scavenged some tools that could be converted for military use.

Bunnahabhain
30-11-2009, 23:11
How long does it take to drop into a prone position? or to get up from one?

About one second. You get down fast, and then wiggle into position if needed. If the NCO tells you to move on 3, you get up and move on 3, and you don't think about it, you do it.

Ask anyone who's done basic infantry training. Or prove it to yourself. Go find a decent paintball range. Getting hit by those things hurt, and I imagine live ammo provides rather more of an incentive, I hope never to have to find out.
If a round hits next to you, you get into cover as fast as you can, which normally means you get down lower.

A few scrapes and bruises from throwing yourself down are much better than the alternatives.

EDIT. The Guard should have more prone and kneeling models. I use as many as I can make, convert, or otherwise get my hands on.

Lyonator
01-12-2009, 04:08
Lyon, they do a head pack - All of them are wearing respirators, but the heads do just come in a pack of 12.
Well I'll be.
I stand corrected

UrielSynthesis
01-12-2009, 09:21
I've got the respirator heads and they look sharp!

Plus they keep my Elysians from looking like cops from The 5th Element.

Petay1985
01-12-2009, 10:50
Returning to the original topic, I've spent a little while looking at the Melta Gun teams... I don't know how many pieces the Elysians come in (Whether the arms are attached or not?), but do you guys think it would be possible to take the arms and gun off the prone guy (Provided they're not attached to the body), and put them on a crouching chap, then model a convenient piece of scenery for him to rest the bi-pod on?

It would look like a crouching guy taking cover behind a low wall or something, resting his Melta Gun on top and blasting away.

Sorry to be persistent in this, but I feel that the the infantry and veteran squads for the Elysians are very dynamic and appear to be in the middle of either running, landing or taking aim... I'm just not quite so sure how dynamic the prone chaps would be amongst a squad of fellows carrying out all kinds of faster-paced actions?

The elysian meltagun teams do not have the arms attached to the body, it would very simply to put these arms and gun on a differently posed body, crouching, standing, etc...

I like your idea of modelling scenery onto the base to support the bipod too :)

NovaScotius
01-12-2009, 18:50
The elysian meltagun teams do not have the arms attached to the body, it would very simply to put these arms and gun on a differently posed body, crouching, standing, etc...

I like your idea of modelling scenery onto the base to support the bipod too :)

Nice one! I think I'm going to give it a go, it'll just be a case of Guardsman Jenkins carrying a small piece of city-fight ruins with him, wherever he goes! :p

meno1
02-12-2009, 01:32
Hmm I love the idea of taking aim on a piece of scenery...Now I'm thinking of a sniper in a tree resting his rifle on a branch, or a kneeling sniper using a mound of rocks...

Not sure about other boxes, but if you pick up some Catachan heavy weapons squads they have some great kneeling legs, which could be used for any army really (they're just normal boots and combat pants). I've used them for a kneeling servitor taking aim with his multi-melta:D