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View Full Version : Marauder Horsemen - better off without LA?



Khemed
30-11-2009, 18:50
Hey, so to get to the point - let's consider some of the most common Horsement builds used all around (excluding the MoK w.flails build):

5 x MoS Marauder Horsemen w. flails
and

5 x MoS Marauder Horsemen w. th.axes


Now, after playing several games vs. my VC, DE and chaos dwarfs opponents, I began to wonder wether Light Armour on the Horsemen is even worth the fuss - it'd seem that most of the time, the humble 6+ gets totaly ignored by anything heavier than a bow and even then it provides a marginal advantage.

Question being - aren't the points better off somewhere else? I wondered if I shouldn't keep the LA at least on the default flail flankers, but then again - if they decide to flank, they should be pretty sure to break the unit in turn 1 anyway.

Why I'm asking that is that I see a lot of people fielding their Horsemen with LA (that's why I did that in the first place), but lately - I fail more and more to see the purpose of the upgrade.


Your thoughts?

Cheers,
Kmd.

willowdark
30-11-2009, 18:53
You said 6+. You realize that because they're mounted with LA, it's 5+? Just covering that basis right away.

Harwammer
30-11-2009, 18:55
It depends on what you face.

Against str 3 5+ armour is pretty nice. Against anything penetrating armour isn't worth the expense.

willowdark
30-11-2009, 19:12
My Glade riders have the 6+ save and fail it against everything that hits them. My Wild Riders have the 5+ save and always land a few, letting only about half through to be cleaned up by the Ward Save.

It's a matter of where the hits are coming from. My fast Cav are always targeted by small arms fire, like skinks or archers, as well as Magic Missiles. against that stuff, the 5+ save has proven useful everytime. I even notice it with my Dark riders, who have the 5+ Armour but don't have the Ward to back it up.

I'd always prefer the lite armour on fast cav, especially against Magic Missiles.

MarcoPollo
30-11-2009, 19:35
I use 5 horsemen (MoS) with flails. Sometimes I use la and sometimes not. Here's how I approach the decision.

1) Start the list with the LA on the horsemen.
2) As you go through the list, if you need the 5 extra points, take them off.
3) If you have pts left over, put them back on.
4) Rinse and repeat till happy.

At best it is a marginal decision compared to the rest of the construction of the list. So if I have room, they stay, if not they don't.

Ymir
01-12-2009, 03:57
I'm personally more interested if there is any kind of build ever where it would be worth it to give them both light armour and shields, giving them an extremely useful 4+-save, but making them lose the fast cavalry rule.

Is that ever viable? And if so; when?

blackjack
01-12-2009, 04:27
Unless you are running some kind of fluff for them, never give them both shields and Light armor. Being fast cav is what makes Horsemen worth the price. Take that away and you have overpriced light knights which can't really use flails (as that loses the shield you just bought) so are stuck with str 4 on the charge with a spear.

So for the same price you can either have,

Fast cav with a 5+ save and a str 5 first turn hit.
Or Block cav with a 4+ save and str 4 first turn hit for the same price.

I know which I would choose...

SatireSphere
01-12-2009, 04:56
Shields are useless on them, light armor is a must buy.

a 5+ save gives you armor against 80% of the massed shooting in the game.

Unuhexium
01-12-2009, 05:35
I'm with Ymir on this one. We all know that flails are made of win and good, but stopping for a second to think about the LA+shield+spear combo, one could argue that it might be nice for mowing down those huge infantry blocks. 15 horsemen with MoK, FC and said combo cost a little bit more than 5 knights with FC and MoK. In return you get two more ranks and a highly probably outnumber (US 30) and two more inches of charge range.

I probably wouldn't send knights to clean up a unit of orcs/skeletons/clanrats (because it would be overkill), but 5 guys with flails wouldn't have the SCR to break unless charging the flank and we know how easy that is when there's a bunch of infantry blocks standing close together.

Got to go, but anyway, this is my highly theoretical answer. LA+shield+spear can be usefull, but is highly situational.

Avian
01-12-2009, 07:37
I'm with Ymir on this one. We all know that flails are made of win and good, but stopping for a second to think about the LA+shield+spear combo, one could argue that it might be nice for mowing down those huge infantry blocks. 15 horsemen with MoK, FC and said combo cost a little bit more than 5 knights with FC and MoK. In return you get two more ranks and a highly probably outnumber (US 30) and two more inches of charge range.
You forget that you only get 2 WS4 S4 attacks and 2 WS3 S3 attacks while Knights of Khorne have 3 WS5 S5 attacks and 2 WS3 S4 attacks. And if you don't charge you are at S3.

And you die a whole lot quicker than the Knights, with -1T and -3 armour.
(So don't bet on having two more ranks when you get into combat.

For 300 pts, that seems like a quite bad buy.

Unuhexium
01-12-2009, 16:31
True that. Thought a bit about it during the day and it seems the general advise would be "get more knights so you CAN throw them at useless units that are just in the way".

kyuzo
01-12-2009, 17:30
warriors of chaos is all about min/max on your units in order to fit as much units in as possible with the high price cost of our units. Spending points on a unit that is going to die anyway will just give up more victory points on a throw away unit.

willowdark
01-12-2009, 17:35
Nothing says they have to be throw away units. They have more attacks than regular Fast Cav and have access to marks. they should survive often enough to play the bait/flee game right away then actually start killing things.

They even have the Horselords rule, which shows they were meant to be in combat. Without any meaningful ranged weapon, Horsemen aren't really great harassers, so shouldn't be treated as cheap and expendable.

they are, of course, cheap and expendable. But it serves you well to treat them as effective enemy support hunters as well.

BenTheRat
01-12-2009, 17:52
I always run my fast cav with MoSl, Lt Armor, Flails, throw axes, mus. For 106 points you have a very useful and versatile unit that can put out 5 str 4 missile shots, charge small units, including warmachines and some archer units. Str 5 whether you are charged or not.
And a 5+ armor save. Not to mention the fast cav abilities to flee, rally, move/march and shoot again.

They worked great for me. I ran 6 units just like that.

kyuzo
02-12-2009, 01:21
Nothing says they have to be throw away units. They have more attacks than regular Fast Cav and have access to marks. they should survive often enough to play the bait/flee game right away then actually start killing things.

They even have the Horselords rule, which shows they were meant to be in combat. Without any meaningful ranged weapon, Horsemen aren't really great harassers, so shouldn't be treated as cheap and expendable.

they are, of course, cheap and expendable. But it serves you well to treat them as effective enemy support hunters as well.

Nothing says they have to be throw away units.... except for the large portion of shooting armies that can and will kill them by turn 2 if not turn 1. Giving yourself a +6 armor save(most shooting will -1) is not going to save them. Once you starting adding any equipment at all they are no longer cheap. I sometimes like the group of mok/flail of course but usually end up running them naked or slaanesh as expensive warhounds with better movement/core fillers.

Rosstifer
02-12-2009, 11:01
We are WOC players. We have a collective hard-on for armour saves.