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Zoolander
30-11-2009, 18:52
My group that I normally play with has run into a debate with the Doomwheel. The rules state that it moves like a chariot, 3d6" during the compulsory movement phase. If it happens to run into another unit, it does impact hits. No problem. However, part of our group feels because it moves as a chariot, it cannot "charge" a unit from the rear or side if it started out facing the target originally. Basically, they are stating that the target must be in the Doomwheel's front arc. They believe it's rather cheesey to be facing a unit, but if you roll high enough to end your movement in the rear of the target unit, gaining a +2 CR bonus.

The basic problem with the DW is that it is allowed to turn and wheel like a chariot, as most other compulsory units simply move in a straight line. However, it technically does not declare charges, so it could perform such crazy maneuvers to gain a flank or rear "charge". This is causing such heated debates, that two people have refused to play against a Skaven opponent if it includes a DW, even though these people are all "friends".

Now I know that noone here will really have the answer, and it will need to be FAQ'd, but I am just trying to gain a consensus as to the number of folks that feel one way or the other, hence the poll.

If you can, please leave a reason for your belief one way of the other.

Thanks!

<sorry - this should be in the rules forums, not tactics. My apologies!>

Cambion Daystar
30-11-2009, 20:28
It doesn't matter where it ends it move, but where it starts. That goes for ALL units (incl spawn, hellpit abomination,...)

Zoolander
30-11-2009, 21:21
It doesn't matter where it ends it move, but where it starts. That goes for ALL units (incl spawn, hellpit abomination,...)

True, but in this context, because it can turn, and things that move randomly don't ever "charge" things, I can see one making an argument that the DW can run into things that are not in its front arc. I don't plan on using it that way, however, because I view that as cheesey (even for a ratman).

x1xx1x
30-11-2009, 21:21
voted move like a chariot, think it makes it too powerful without this rule.

Lord Inquisitor
30-11-2009, 21:52
Hmm, tricky one.

The Hell Pit Abomination can certainly charge backwards if it wants to. The rules are very clear. However, the HPA must nominate a direction and then move in that direction, which is different to the Doomwheel, which can turn.

The Doomwheel is far less clear, given that it moves "as a chariot." Which would imply that it would have to declare a charge against a visible unit. It also does not say (with the exception of an Out Of Control result) that if it runs into an enemy unit it counts as charging.

That said, if it has to declare charges, how would that work? Would it fail the charge if the movement roll is not sufficient? The line "should a Doomwheel come into contact with a unit (friend or foe)" seems to imply that it can just run into an enemy unit although this may just be there to cover the event of an Out of Control result.

So I don't know. Being a random compulsory unit does suggest that, but then again while random it doesn't have to move in a straight line, unlike the HPA. For this reason more than any other, I would say that it has to be the case that the Doomwheel has to obey the normal restrictions on charging (must be able to see the target, no more than one wheel, etc) even though it charges in the compulsory movement phase. Otherwise you could have all sorts of silliness like a Doomwheel starting in the front arc of a unit and moving round to charge it in the rear. This is also the more conservative approach, as it is the less powerful of the two possibilities (and from what I gather the Doomwheel is plenty nasty enough as it is!)

bizzar6311
30-11-2009, 21:53
You must charge the arc you started in as per the rule book.

Seth the Dark
30-11-2009, 21:54
If it moves like a chariot it should only be able to turn once right or am I am wrong?

Zoolander
30-11-2009, 22:10
You must charge the arc you started in as per the rule book.

You may be correct, but sadly, there is nothing in the rule book that handles the moving of a unit such as this, hence the debate. Unless you can point to a rule that I haven't considered...?


If it moves like a chariot it should only be able to turn once right or am I am wrong?

I assume you mean during a charge, but the problem is, the Doomwheel does not ever technically charge anything. If it happens to move into another unit (note that this is friend or foe), it does impact hits and is considered charging. But technically, it does not ever charge, so it can arguably turn as many times as it likes. This does make for a very nasty weapon, and again, I refuse to use it that way simply because it's ridiculous. But I can definitely see the argument for it, because the rules are not very clear.

RanaldLoec
30-11-2009, 22:33
It moves like a charoit, essential part is ''it moves like a charoit'' that includes how a charoit charges.

Yes it may not declare a charge but if your opponent intends to connect with a unit this has to be decalred. I will repeat that connecting with any enemy unit in WFB classes as charging a charge has to be declared and charge the arc your facing.

If your oppenent does not declare his charge with all his other charges he cannot come with in 1 inch of an enemy unit This is perfectly clear in the rule book no charge declaration no moving with in 1 inch of a unit so the doomwheel can't charge unless it decalres it intention to connect with said unit before it moves.

Stumpy
30-11-2009, 22:35
How about rules as intent? You really think the designers intended to have a shooty, terror-causing chariot charge people in the flank/rear from the front arc?

Blueskies
30-11-2009, 23:05
The doomwheel never actually charges, it has a compulsory movement, which means when you manoeuver and move like a chariot, you will never utilise it's charging as a chariot rules and you don't even need line of sight, you are not charging, you are just moving which under the book is measure and move .... except that as stipulated by the doomwheel rules if you are brought into contact with a unit, friend or foe, you stop... and impact hits.

Blueskies
30-11-2009, 23:14
It moves like a charoit, essential part is ''it moves like a charoit'' that includes how a charoit charges.

Yes it may not declare a charge but if your opponent intends to connect with a unit this has to be decalred. I will repeat that connecting with any enemy unit in WFB classes as charging a charge has to be declared and charge the arc your facing.

If your oppenent does not declare his charge with all his other charges he cannot come with in 1 inch of an enemy unit This is perfectly clear in the rule book no charge declaration no moving with in 1 inch of a unit so the doomwheel can't charge unless it decalres it intention to connect with said unit before it moves.

The 1 inch apart rule stops units from being closer then 1 inch if NOT enguaging... USUALLY (not always) you need to declare a charge to enguage... compulsory moves will let you come in contact and enguage... and then he doom wheel has rules for contact.... stop and impact hits (friend or foe). When doing compulsory movement, you have not declared charges yet that is a whole different part of the movement phase, you cannot declare charges in compulsory movement, only do the compulsory movement and both charging and compulsory movement allow you to enguage. This is pretty simple, but I guess the trolls want it to be faq'd. What confuses people is that the wheel is a more controlable compulsory movement then the usual pick a direction and move that far, here the controller can control the directions while moving the rolled distance, yes it is more powerful.

Normally the rule "if this takes it into combat then it counts as charging is used" however with the doomwheel they already have "should the doomwheel com into contact.... you get impact hits.... see grinding down the foe" yes this also means that is does NOT count as charging so in hth, they do not strike first, they use their initiative... all your getting is the impact hits and as per grinding down the foe, you only move it an inch back if it was a friendly unit.

thechosenone
30-11-2009, 23:23
See here's the thing, which do you want more, the ability to roll around into your flank or rear and call that a charge or the ability to have a charge range of 6D inches? If it charges based on charge rules it gets to double its movement as chargers do right? If it just charges what it rolls into you may get an ugly roll around to your rear.

personally i think its better to have a 3D6 moving unit that can hit me in the back rather then a terror causing impact hitting unit that can get me from on average 21 inches away.

RanaldLoec
30-11-2009, 23:36
The doomwheel never actually charges, it has a compulsory movement, which means when you manoeuver and moe like a chariot, you will never utilise it's charging as a chariot rules and you don't even need line of sight, you are not charging, you are just moving which under the book is measure and move .... except that as stipulated by the doomwheel rules if you are brought into contact with a unit, friend or foe, you stop... and impact hits.


READ GRINDING DOWN THE FOE THE DOOM WHEEL DOES CHARGE ITS IN THE SKAVEN BOOK.

PG 67

The Doomwheel itself does a Grind Attack at the beginning of each round of combat in which it did not CHARGE. <<<<<<<<< ITS THERE IN YOUR SKAVEN BOOK THE WORD CHARGE.
So the doomwheel does charge thats how its does impact hits so it is governed by the normal rules of movement and charging.


ANY repeat ANY move which brings you into contact with an enemy unit in a movement phase is classed as a CHARGE. If a charge is not decalred you cannot repeat CANNOT come with in 1 inch of an enemy unit. READ YOUR FANTSEY RULE BOOK ITS THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE.


Rule Book

PG 20 Complusory Moves

Generally speaking, a player can move his units however he wishes within the confines of rules governing movement. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
within the confines of rules governing movement
within the confines of rules governing movement
within the confines of rules governing movement

PG 12 1 inch Apart

Units may only engage in close combat by means of a charge.



PG 67 Skaven Book

Rolling Doom
THE DOOMWHEEL MOVES AND MANOEUVRES LIKE A CHARIOT.





Where the Skaven book may be vague the Rule book is very very very very very clear about this point argue if you wish but the FAQ will rule this way because its how the rules are already written. This is very simple and forms the basis of the combat system for Warhammer Fantsey Battle

RanaldLoec
30-11-2009, 23:40
See here's the thing, which do you want more, the ability to roll around into your flank or rear and call that a charge or the ability to have a charge range of 6D inches? If it charges based on charge rules it gets to double its movement as chargers do right? If it just charges what it rolls into you may get an ugly roll around to your rear.

personally i think its better to have a 3D6 moving unit that can hit me in the back rather then a terror causing impact hitting unit that can get me from on average 21 inches away.

Anything which moves you into contact with an enemy unit is classed as a charge. Complusory movement such as a spawn, or doomwheel or a decalred charge by a normal unit.

RanaldLoec
01-12-2009, 00:03
READ GRINDING DOWN THE FOE THE DOOM WHEEL DOES CHARGE ITS IN THE SKAVEN BOOK.

PG 67

The Doomwheel itself does a Grind Attack at the beginning of each round of combat in which it did not CHARGE.

IN which it did not charge. So from this we take that in a turn it comes into contact with a unit its CHARGING.

This just happens the complusory movement phase but it is still governed by the rules for chariot.

Just because it happens out of the charge declaration phase does not mean it enters some mythical zone where the rules no longer exist.

Again read your Skaven book more closely charging is mentioned TWICE, in the doomwheel entry.

RanaldLoec
01-12-2009, 00:06
Note if the doomwheel does not charge it wont get impact hits as impacts hits are caused on the cahrge so shoot your self in the foot if you wish but the doomwheel is a balanced effective unit not the harbringer of doom you wish it to be.

RanaldLoec
01-12-2009, 00:07
Please move to RULES FORUM

Zoolander
01-12-2009, 00:18
READ GRINDING DOWN THE FOE THE DOOM WHEEL DOES CHARGE ITS IN THE SKAVEN BOOK.

PG 67

The Doomwheel itself does a Grind Attack at the beginning of each round of combat in which it did not CHARGE. <<<<<<<<< ITS THERE IN YOUR SKAVEN BOOK THE WORD CHARGE.
So the doomwheel does charge thats how its does impact hits so it is governed by the normal rules of movement and charging.


ANY repeat ANY move which brings you into contact with an enemy unit in a movement phase is classed as a CHARGE. If a charge is not decalred you cannot repeat CANNOT come with in 1 inch of an enemy unit. READ YOUR FANTSEY RULE BOOK ITS THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE.


Rule Book

PG 20 Complusory Moves

Generally speaking, a player can move his units however he wishes within the confines of rules governing movement. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
within the confines of rules governing movement
within the confines of rules governing movement
within the confines of rules governing movement

PG 12 1 inch Apart

Units may only engage in close combat by means of a charge.



PG 67 Skaven Book

Rolling Doom
THE DOOMWHEEL MOVES AND MANOEUVRES LIKE A CHARIOT.





Where the Skaven book may be vague the Rule book is very very very very very clear about this point argue if you wish but the FAQ will rule this way because its how the rules are already written. This is very simple and forms the basis of the combat system for Warhammer Fantsey Battle

Actually, they don't declare a charge, but once they encounter another unit, they are considered charging, so that is possibly why that paragraph mentions charging. Just a thought.

If you look a the turn sequence, you declare charges and then move compulsory movement. Therefore, they technically can't declare charges, can they? Hence, more reason to hate the writers of the Skaven book.

"Units may only engage in close combat by means of a charge."

This would technically mean that the DW would never encounter an enemy because they don't declare charges!

Red Metal
01-12-2009, 00:27
ANY repeat ANY move which brings you into contact with an enemy unit in a movement phase is classed as a CHARGE. If a charge is not decalred you cannot repeat CANNOT come with in 1 inch of an enemy unit. READ YOUR FANTSEY RULE BOOK ITS THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE.


I'd just like to add that page 18 of the rulebook states the following: "Charging is the only way that models are normally allowed to move into close combat."

One could assume that GW uses the term "normally" to indicate that there are abnormal situations where a unit or model could enter base contact with another and not involve a charge. Personally, I think if the DW moves like a chariot and charging is part of the grand scope of movement, that the DW must charge like a chariot.

RanaldLoec
01-12-2009, 00:32
Originally Posted by RanaldLoec
READ GRINDING DOWN THE FOE THE DOOM WHEEL DOES CHARGE ITS IN THE SKAVEN BOOK.

PG 67

The Doomwheel itself does a Grind Attack at the beginning of each round of combat in which it did not CHARGE.

In which it did not charge so to enter combat it has to charge this happens when it moves in the Compusory movement phase.

If the doomwheel doesn't charge NO IMPACT HITS, NO CONTACTING THE ENEMY UNIT

That Guy
01-12-2009, 01:30
I think this is more straightforward than we all think.

Declaring charges happens before compulsory movement. If you want you Doomwheel to get into combat, you need to declare a charge. You can only declare a charge at a unit that you can see, and you must engage that unit in whichever arc you begin your movement.

Then in the compulsory movement sub-phase you roll to see how far you go. If you make it, great! If not, then you move your standard movement value, which is still 3D6" (like how fliers still move 20").

To summarize: declare a charge, roll for your movement value, move the model. There is no opportunity to wheel around towards the back.

Right?

Lord Inquisitor
01-12-2009, 01:47
The Doomwheel itself does a Grind Attack at the beginning of each round of combat in which it did not CHARGE.

In which it did not charge so to enter combat it has to charge this happens when it moves in the Compusory movement phase.

If the doomwheel doesn't charge NO IMPACT HITS, NO CONTACTING THE ENEMY UNIT

You've posted this three times now, to the point of trolling.

This is hardly conclusive, as the Doomwheel obviously does not charge exactly as a normal unit. Indeed, it specifically says under Out of Control that if it contacts an enemy unit it "counts as charging."

Now, the normal movement says "Should a Doomwheel come into contact with a unit (friend or foe) the Doomwheel will come to a stop, causing Impact Hits." It's clear that if you contact the enemy then you are charging. It is not at all obvious whether a Doomwheel can "come into contact" with an enemy unit as part of its "normal" movement (as opposed to an Out of Control movement).

I am still unsure about how many of the charging rules actually apply to this thing. I would guess that it must adhere to the "one wheel max" and "charge the facing whose arc you are in" rules, otherwise this thing would be utterly broken. Other than this, I would guess that you declare a charge (requiring LOS to the target as normal) and simply move the Doomwheel the full distance towards the target, counting as charging if it makes contact. However, this is just me making up rules I feel are appropriate. There are just no rules to cover how this thing charges.

Edit: ninja'd on this last point. Looks like That Guy agrees exactly with me in terms of the best way to play it.

Rodman49
01-12-2009, 01:51
What is all the hub-bub about? The Doomwheel and other units such as Spawn must obey all the normal rules for charging - they just do it in the compulsory part of the movement phase. Its been FAQ-ed already:

Warhammer Rulebook FAQ FEB 2009
Page 2
Q. Does a unit that moves via compulsory movement have to obey the normal charging conventions regarding Front/Flank/Rear? Or may such a unit (e.g. Chaos Spawn) hit a side of an enemy unit different from the one where they began their move?
A. They must obey the normal rules, and so if they would hit a side of the enemy that they cannot charge, they must stop 1" away from the enemy.

kaintxu
01-12-2009, 01:53
Originally Posted by RanaldLoec
READ GRINDING DOWN THE FOE THE DOOM WHEEL DOES CHARGE ITS IN THE SKAVEN BOOK.

PG 67

The Doomwheel itself does a Grind Attack at the beginning of each round of combat in which it did not CHARGE.

In which it did not charge so to enter combat it has to charge this happens when it moves in the Compusory movement phase.

If the doomwheel doesn't charge NO IMPACT HITS, NO CONTACTING THE ENEMY UNIT

Sorry to tell u, no impact hit if not charging, would mean you would never cause impact hits on your units because since su dont charge you will never cause them impact hit and the Skaven book says:

"Should a Doomwheel come into contact with a unit (friend or foe) the Doomwheel will come to a stop, causing Impact Hits"

So i dont think it has to declare charge, but the charge has to be from the front angle when it starts

Emissary
01-12-2009, 01:56
Exactly. This really is a non-issue with the Feb 2009 FAQ

Seth the Dark
01-12-2009, 02:15
Finally a definitive answer.

Lord Inquisitor
01-12-2009, 03:28
Exactly. This really is a non-issue with the Feb 2009 FAQ

Except that the FAQ doesn't address the core question. Spawn (and the abomination) do not need to be able to see their target in order to charge them. Effectively, they have a 360-degree charge arc.

The Doomwheel lacks the explicit stipulation that you nominate a direction, move, and if you hit an enemy unit you count as charging (except when Out of Control of course). Which leaves us with the question, does it need to declare a charge/see the target enemy or does it move in the same manner as the spawn?

Indeed, if it has to declare and move as a chariot when charging (as seems to be the overwhelming opinion, including mine) then that FAQ actually has absolutely nothing to do with the Doomwheel unless it suffers an Out of Control result as it wouldn't be allowed to perform the maneuver suggested by the FAQ anyway.

Taishar
01-12-2009, 04:08
It's not up for debate unless you're intentionally trying to twist the rules for your own benefit (like saying you can have multiple sets of armor). It says it moves like a chariot, so you simply follow the chariot rules. It tells you where to go to look for rules. Just do that.


Cheers

TheRaven
01-12-2009, 04:12
Considering I had my GW staff tell be about the trick with moving the doomwheel to attack from the rear/flank and that's how they rule it in our tournaments I think it's the official word.

The Skaven book is very specific, IT DOES NOT CHARGE. As stated in the book it moves during the "COMPULSORY" part of the movement phase, and when it moves, if it comes "INTO CONTACT" with anything it causes impact hits. To me the rules couldn't be simpler, the doomwheel does not charge, not only that, it CANNOT charge and is not restricted by normal charging rules. You roll to see how far you can move it, you move it said distance, however you want and at the end of the movement phase BAM impact hits and combat is resolved. NO reason why you can't move around a unit and impact the the rear/flank. Everyone I've talked to at GW see's it the same way.

Seth the Dark
01-12-2009, 05:20
People saying GW staff said something is no basis for reasoning. The FAQ clearly states the way units with compulsory movement move.

Rodman49
01-12-2009, 06:48
[COLOR="Magenta"]Except that the FAQ doesn't address the core question. Spawn (and the abomination) do not need to be able to see their target in order to charge them. Effectively, they have a 360-degree charge arc.

Warhammer Rulebook FAQ FEB 2009
Page 2
Q. Does a unit that moves via compulsory movement have to obey the normal charging conventions regarding Front/Flank/Rear? Or may such a unit (e.g. Chaos Spawn) hit a side of an enemy unit different from the one where they began their move?
A. They must obey the normal rules, and so if they would hit a side of the enemy that they cannot charge, they must stop 1" away from the enemy.

Spawn and Abominations cannot charge (contact) any enemy unit which they cannot see at the beginning of their turn, because you must be able to see the unit and you must be within reasonable range to charge something. They also cannot move to the side of units and charge from the flank if they started out in the units front or rear arc.


The Doomwheel lacks the explicit stipulation that you nominate a direction, move, and if you hit an enemy unit you count as charging (except when Out of Control of course). Which leaves us with the question, does it need to declare a charge/see the target enemy or does it move in the same manner as the spawn?

Regardless if it moves in one direction its entire movement, zig zags or whatnot it moves via Compulsory movement. For all you who think that the Doomwheel contacts the enemy without charging look at this statement from page 18 of the rulebook:

If you want to attack an enemy then you must charge him - you cannot simply move your model into close combat . . .

Thus we class the Doomwheel contact as charging - and with both compulsory movement and charging having been shown to be attributes of the Doomwheel the FAQ statement is applicable to it.

Done, done, and done!

(Also a GW Judge once told me that you get to take Regen saves after killing blow. But page 95 of the rulebook clearly states "No armor saves or regeneration saves are allowed against this wound . . ."

So put that in your pipe and smoke it fellas.)

Seth the Dark
01-12-2009, 07:58
Amen. It really can't be much clearer.

Necromancy Black
01-12-2009, 10:01
The FAQ is basically saying this: There is a rule in the BRB saying you must charge a unit in the arc you start in.

You move differently. Do you have a rule that address/deals/changes the above?
If the answer is no then you still must abide the rule in the BRB. This is what the FAQ is saying.

Now, apply this to if the doomwheel can charge something it can not see. Does the Doomwheel have a rule, similar to spawn, saying if it comes into conact with something it counts as charging?

If not, then it's forced the use the BRB rules. Else, it's got it's rule, in that it simply has to reach an enemy to charge it.

It's not the most perfect answer but it seems logical and abides by RAW. The LOs part is still foggy though, as RAW cna be argued either way.

So yeah, more for the FAQ.

RanaldLoec
01-12-2009, 10:11
amen thanks emmisary for the faq

Ishivia
01-12-2009, 10:43
Personally when using my DW, I tend to move it more like the Abomination - ie. declaring a direction, and move it it's full movement rolled - If it at any point smashes into something, it've charged. Keeping in mind the hits taken from moving into difficult terrain - like a chariot.

Why? Well if you could manouver it like a chariot, how would you bash into your own units? It's supposed to be somewhat out of control - yet still less 'out-of-control' compared to the misfire result, thus choosing the direction insted of scattering.

~Ishivia

nosferatu1001
01-12-2009, 10:47
Ishivia - read your armybook more carefully, specifically the "Out of Control" table - which allows you to come into contact with friendly or enemy units without declarign a charge.

You must declare a charge as you are not given permission to come into contact with enemy units otherwise. You are told what happens if you do, but must stay 1" away unless charging or "Out of Control"

kaintxu
01-12-2009, 12:34
nosferatu you dont have to declare a charge, you move, and if you touch something that you could charge aplying normal rules you go into combat, if not, you stop 1" away, so lets say, you could move straight to a unit and charge it in the side, but you have enough movement and you decide to go for its rear, then you dont charge, you stop 1" away since you could not charge the rear at the beginning

theunwantedbeing
01-12-2009, 13:02
1. Pick the direction you want it to go.
2. Roll the dice.
3. Measure how far it will move
4. If you reach an enemy then it counts as a charge
5. Resolve charge reactions
6. Move the model

One would assume that is how it works.
Same for spawn, same for the abomination.
Simple.

Poseidal
01-12-2009, 13:09
The Spawn and Abomination have clauses in their rules specifically saying if they would contact an enemy during this move, it counts as a charge.

The Doomwheel is lacking this.

Ishivia
01-12-2009, 13:16
Let's be honest here... It's not the only unit in this paticular book (let alone the game) with bad / lackful wording / describtion of the special rules.

Taking this into account, taking other random-moving-units' rules as a guideline, as to how it's supposed to work, is (at least in my personal opinion) a legimiate and good-enough way to do it.

That is, untill the famous FAQs is released.

~Ishivia

nosferatu1001
01-12-2009, 13:20
nosferatu you dont have to declare a charge, you move, and if you touch something that you could charge aplying normal rules you go into combat, if not, you stop 1" away, so lets say, you could move straight to a unit and charge it in the side, but you have enough movement and you decide to go for its rear, then you dont charge, you stop 1" away since you could not charge the rear at the beginning

Sorry, how are you overriding the BRB "must stop 1" away from units except during a charge"?

Oh wait, you aren't,m as I said you have no permission to do so except when rolling the right result on "Out of Control"

So no, you must declare charges as normal otherwise you may not contact another unit. The DW only gives, in the normal movement rules for the DW, rules for what happens if you come into contact, it does not let you do so in any way apart from charging OR rolling correctly on "Out of Control"

Please provide a rules quote to prove you have permission otherwise you are incorrect.

Nekrodamus
01-12-2009, 13:44
Right now the DW does not act like a spawn. This is only true when it gets out of control which is in no way a reference for it's 'controlled' movement.

Until the FAQ is out, the DW works exactly like a chariot/monster with just two exceptions:

- it has a variable movement rate, which is of course doubled while charging (on average it's as fast as a Slaanesh chariot)

- it moves before all (other) chargers (because of it's 'speed'?) and may therefore cause real problems for other charging Skaven units

I really hope the FAQ will replace this chariot nonsense by the full(!) standard (simple and well known) spawn ruling. (This and a few words on how a non fleeing and non pursuing unit shall be able to leave the table in the 7th edition.)

Lord Inquisitor
01-12-2009, 13:45
Warhammer Rulebook FAQ FEB 2009
Page 2
Q. Does a unit that moves via compulsory movement have to obey the normal charging conventions regarding Front/Flank/Rear? Or may such a unit (e.g. Chaos Spawn) hit a side of an enemy unit different from the one where they began their move?
A. They must obey the normal rules, and so if they would hit a side of the enemy that they cannot charge, they must stop 1" away from the enemy.
You posted this already. Is there really the need to post it again? You know I read it, there is no need for doubleposting, especially not with oversized text.


Spawn and Abominations cannot charge (contact) any enemy unit which they cannot see at the beginning of their turn, because you must be able to see the unit and you must be within reasonable range to charge something.
Incorrect on both counts. You simply choose a direction and roll the dice, if you hit an enemy you count as charging. The FAQ does not in any way contradict this.


They also cannot move to the side of units and charge from the flank if they started out in the units front or rear arc.
This is true, and what is meant by the FAQ. And does not in any way help us with the original quandry.


One would assume that is how it works.
Same for spawn, same for the abomination.
Simple.
However, the spawn and abomination pick a direction and move in a straight line. The Doomwheel maneuvers like a chariot, so it can turn as it moves. It really is a different beast. It also lacks the "if you move into contact, count as charging" clause, except when Out of Control.

It IS the simplest mechanic - but it doesn't look like it is the right one.

Zoolander
01-12-2009, 15:05
Thank you for your posts Inquisitor. You are correct on every count. And I agree that is how the DW should be used, but sadly, there are no rules in the game (either FAQ or BRB) to support this. I am going to continue using it like we have been, because it seems to be the most fair option. As you pointed out, it would be crossing the line into Brokenville if it was allowed to move all over the board in such a way. However, I do see many instances where it should be able to charge sideways or backwards like a Spawn or Abomb. But allowing it to do so means the funky rear charge maneuver that we all hate, so...

The FAQ posted (twice mind you, as if the first 50 pt font post was missed somehow) is not very helpful simply because the Spawn and the Abomb do not follow normal charge rules either! They don't declare charges at all, they pick a direction and move, and if they encounter an enemy unit, they are considered charging. They can even charge units behind them or to their side (360 charge arc). The Doomwheel works the same way. The problem is that the DW can wheel and turn. It is not limited to straight line movement as the Abomb or Spawn. So that is why this problem arose. And again, I doubt we will see an answer until they release a Skaven FAQ.

Thanks for all your thoughts, it was good to see a that there is as much confusion about it elsewhere than just in our group. :rolleyes:

Lord Inquisitor
01-12-2009, 15:25
While we do need a FAQ on this, I would point out that the method suggested by Zoolander is in my opinion by far the most sensible and fits best with the rules as they are presented:


Declaring charges happens before compulsory movement. If you want you Doomwheel to get into combat, you need to declare a charge. You can only declare a charge at a unit that you can see, and you must engage that unit in whichever arc you begin your movement.

Then in the compulsory movement sub-phase you roll to see how far you go. If you make it, great! If not, then you move your standard movement value, which is still 3D6" (like how fliers still move 20").

To summarize: declare a charge, roll for your movement value, move the model. There is no opportunity to wheel around towards the back.

TheRaven
01-12-2009, 15:51
[COLOR="magenta"]However, the spawn and abomination pick a direction and move in a straight line. The Doomwheel maneuvers like a chariot, so it can turn as it moves. It really is a different beast. It also lacks the "if you move into contact, count as charging" clause, except when Out of Control.


It does lack that line, however, it does say "If you move into contact it does Impact Hits" in the movement section. So if a doomwheel doesn't charge, but by the way it moves it comes into contact with a unit, does it just do impact hits but not count as charging? Seems odd.

Zoolander
01-12-2009, 15:56
[COLOR="magenta"]However, the spawn and abomination pick a direction and move in a straight line. The Doomwheel maneuvers like a chariot, so it can turn as it moves. It really is a different beast. It also lacks the "if you move into contact, count as charging" clause, except when Out of Control.


It does lack that line, however, it does say "If you move into contact it does Impact Hits" in the movement section. So if a doomwheel doesn't charge, but by the way it moves it comes into contact with a unit, does it just do impact hits but not count as charging? Seems odd.

No it clearly states in the movement section that if it encounters a unit, it does impact hits. It's not missing at all.

nosferatu1001
01-12-2009, 15:57
TheRaven - it cannot come into contact with a unit unless it counts as charging that unit - that is the only way you can contact a unit in WHFB.

TheRaven
01-12-2009, 16:04
TheRaven - it cannot come into contact with a unit unless it counts as charging that unit - that is the only way you can contact a unit in WHFB.

What I was trying to get at is that the book never says, if it comes into contact with a unit while moving is counts as a charge, the book DOES say that if it comes into contact with a unit while moving it does impact hits. I was just seeing what people thought about cuasing impact hits being basically the same as charging.

I also think that that line clearly overrides the rule in the warhammer book that says a unit can't come into contact with a unit unless charging. Otherwise the wording would seem too wierd "Move the doomwheel, if it comes into contact with a unit while moving in the movement phase it does impact hits, but ignore that line becuase it can't come into contact with a unit". Doesn't make sense.

Zoolander
01-12-2009, 16:09
What I was trying to get at is that the book never says, if it comes into contact with a unit while moving is counts as a charge, the book DOES say that if it comes into contact with a unit while moving it does impact hits. I was just seeing what people thought about cuasing impact hits being basically the same as charging.

I also think that that line clearly overrides the rule in the warhammer book that says a unit can't come into contact with a unit unless charging. Otherwise the wording would seem too wierd "Move the doomwheel, if it comes into contact with a unit while moving in the movement phase it does impact hits, but ignore that line becuase it can't come into contact with a unit". Doesn't make sense.

Clearly, if the unit is doing impact hits, it is counted as charging. I doubt many of us would argue against that.

Yes, units that move in the compulsory phase have their own rules for movement and charging and do not follow the normal rules in the BRB.

Poseidal
01-12-2009, 16:11
Doesn't it has permission to 'count as charging' when it goes out of control (causing impact hits) but doesn't include this permission in the normal movement text?

nosferatu1001
01-12-2009, 16:11
No, it does not "clearly override" it - the BRB states you may not come within 1" unless you are charging, and nothing in the rule for DW overrides this.

Please look at Out of Control - that is why that line is there, as that does allow you to make contact without declaring a charge. To prevent having to print the rule twice (once saying "if you charge, then....." and once for "out of control") they gave a blanket "IF you come into contact do X" rule - but this does not, in any way, shape or form override the nromal requirements that, to come into contact, you have to be charging.

It makes sense in that, if you have control over a unit, you are expected to declare charges in order to come into contact with another unit. Same here - unless you are "Out of Control" you an move the chariot exatly as you wish, jsut a random distance.

TheRaven
01-12-2009, 16:15
It also says that in the basic movement section of the doomwheel that if it comes into contact with a unit it does impact hits. Why would they put that rule in there if it can't come into contact with a unit while moving.

Atrahasis
01-12-2009, 16:19
Guys, there is absolutely no point in discussing the rules as they are written, because they are of absolutely no help whatsoever in reaching a conclusion. They give pointers, but nothing conclusive.

My take is that the Doomwheel declares charges (as is normal for a chariot) but moves in the compulsory movement phase. Strictly speaking this means it charges 2x3D6", but I think we can all agree that treating it somewhat like flight is more sensible, ie the 3d6 rolled is both the charge and the failed charge distance.

TheRaven
01-12-2009, 16:33
Who knows, maybe 8th edition will come out and radically change the moving/charging rules and the doomwheel will suddenly make sense and we will all go "ahhhhhh". lol

Lord Inquisitor
01-12-2009, 16:51
It does lack that line, however, it does say "If you move into contact it does Impact Hits" in the movement section. So if a doomwheel doesn't charge, but by the way it moves it comes into contact with a unit, does it just do impact hits but not count as charging? Seems odd.

That line may simply be there to cover Out of Control movement, although that is somewhat redundant as it also says it there too. (Looking at it another way, the Out of Control section is redundant with regard to impact hits in any case). It may also be included to consider the possibilities of hitting a unit when fleeing/pursuing (although again this is redundant as "move as a chariot" already covers these situations).

But the line does reference Grinding Down the Foe, which clearly implies that if you move into contact with the enemy this means you are in combat.

All of which doesn't resolve whether the Doomwheel can move into combat, or whether it has to declare a charge. This stuff happens when you write overcomplicated rules. Keep It Simple, Stupid GW!:rolleyes:

TheRaven
01-12-2009, 17:01
I really think the intent was to have the doomwheel be able to slam into a unit while moving. I know this argument does not have any merit one way or the other but it seems silly that if I roll say 15' for movement I come around a corner, and instead of hitting the enemy my engineer slams on the breaks 1' away from the enemy unit and just sits there. I mean if he can slam on the breaks an inch away from a unit, why can't he slam on the break's when he's about to hit a brick wall? And what's more, why the hell would he want to stop instead of slamming into the unit.

I guess we'll have to wait until an FAQ for this to be resolved. The RAW are too ambiguous one way or the other, both arguments can be giving legitimate support.

Cambion Daystar
01-12-2009, 17:04
I really think the intent was to have the doomwheel be able to slam into a unit while moving. I know this argument does not have any merit one way or the other but it seems silly that if I roll say 15' for movement I come around a corner, and instead of hitting the enemy my engineer slams on the breaks 1' away from the enemy unit and just sits there. I mean if he can slam on the breaks an inch away from a unit, why can't he slam on the break's when he's about to hit a brick wall? And what's more, why the hell would he want to stop instead of slamming into the unit.
.

Remember, logic is not really compatible with GW rules ;)

Atrahasis
01-12-2009, 17:06
why can't he slam on the break's when he's about to hit a brick wall? he can, just not when "Out of Control", which is pretty self-explanatory.

willowdark
01-12-2009, 17:11
Remember, logic is not really compatible with GW rules ;)

Not just in matters of laziness, but sometimes logic must bend to game mechanics.

Charging the flank or rear has many benefits, as we all know. So while it seems logical that the DW wouldn't stop 1" away, it's also prevents unfair advantages that it would gain by being the only model in the game capable of hitting the flank from the front.

BretonniaorDeath
01-12-2009, 18:59
Ok lemme get this straight: your question is "Can a Doomwheel charge a unit in the side or rear if it begins its move in the front"

and someone already answered you that "a unit that moves with compulsory movement follows the same rules with regards to the front/side/rear as everything else in the game"

and we already know that the Doomwheel moves 3d6 inches in the compulsory movement phase as per the quote "the doomwheel does not have a fixed movement rate but instead moves a random 3d6 inches at the beginning of each friendly turn" from page 67 of the skaven book....so i think a doomwheel then falls into the category of "unit that moves with compulsory movement"

so then where along the line does this break down? seems like pretty baseline logic here clears this right up.

unless you just really want it not to so the game can be broken...?

willowdark
01-12-2009, 19:02
People have convinced themselves that "moves like a chariot" means more than just free pivoting, and that it somehow obsolves the DW of the requirement of other compulsory movers to follow the normal charging rules.

jaxom
01-12-2009, 19:53
Which is, of course, immaterial because if it does not move as compulsory movement then it charges as a chariot which cannot charge outside the facing it starts in either.

Zoolander
01-12-2009, 23:34
I cannot wait for the FAQ on Skaven. So many questions... :cries:

kaintxu
02-12-2009, 01:20
Clearly, if the unit is doing impact hits, it is counted as charging. I doubt many of us would argue against that.

Yes, units that move in the compulsory phase have their own rules for movement and charging and do not follow the normal rules in the BRB.

Actually they dont unless other wise stablised, there is no place on the BRB that says that because of moving in compulsory phase everything is diferent, it has to be stated on the unit rules.

thechosenone
02-12-2009, 01:52
Just so i can keep up, missed out on the last two pages, are we saying that the doomwheel declares charges as regular? Does that mean we're saying its move value is still doubled?

xragg
02-12-2009, 07:53
To me, the only thing up in the air for the doomwheel is whether to double the 3d6 when charging. The rest seems rather straight foward by the rules. I agree with Atrahasis that its probally best to just treat the "3d6" in a similar fashion as flight.

Adran
02-12-2009, 10:50
The way I would play it is I would declare charges with it in the Declare charges phase if I hoped to charge. I would then always move it 3d6 inches regardless of charging or not. It would then follow all the line of sight/pivioting rules chariots are subject to.
My reagular Skaven opponent uses the spawn rules for its movement, which I can live with.

Darkened_Image
04-12-2009, 05:29
So, I had a friendly game with a friend of mine earlier where I was playing VC and he was playing Skaven. We've both been out of Fantasy for sometime and we're both still new to the Skaven codex so we've had a lot of questions about the Doomwheel.

Let me explain what really frustrated/confused me, largely due to bad luck but it didn't "feel right."

His doomwheel had charged a skeleton unit and ended up losing combat and fleeing that phase.

In my following movement phase, my vampire lord on dragon ended up flying nearby his fleeing doomwheel in order to prepare for a flank charge on another unit of his.

In his subsequent turn, his doomwheel rallied. He positioned it to face towards my vampire lord/dragon, rolled his distance, and came in contact with my dragon, fired his weapons in the shooting phase and severely hurting my vampire, only to end up killing my vampire with impact hits.

This allowed him to pursue further into an ongoing combat, helping him kill that unit as well.

Based on the movement phase order, he rallied and we didn't come across anything that prevented him from doing any of those maneuvers. As he moves like a chariot, his movement wasn't spent on reforming with rallying, which further seemed to indicate that he could shoot as well. As well, because his movement is random and seems to allow him to charge without having to declare a charge, that seemed to work as well.

Perhaps I'm asking for a lot here, but is there anything in either the skaven codex or, better yet, the BRB (as it's at least been FAQ'ed) to suggest this should or should not have happened?

Your thoughts are appreciated!

Atrahasis
04-12-2009, 07:53
There is so much wrong in your post it's hard to say where to begin :)

The Doomwheel rallied, and so could not move that turn. Rallied units are forced to reform - chariots do not have an exception to this.

You also say that your Vampire, riding a dragon, died to impact hits. Unless the dragon died to shooting, then no impact hits would hit the vampire, as impact hits always hit the mount and not the rider (with the exception of stegadons; only Sotek knows why).

The lightning should also technically roll to hit, as there is no exception listed and the default for missile weapons is that they roll to hit.

You're also talking about a unit which is highly contentious in many ways, so asking us to tell you how it works is largely pointless - until an FAQ comes along the best you can do is agree with your opponent/gaming group.

shadow hunter
04-12-2009, 09:13
I thought the lightning hits automatically? At work so cant check - but I thought I saw that (or similar) mentioned.

Glad you pointed out rallying, I would have probably fallen foul of that too, and moved it afterwards.

Does it still shoot after rallying though (since it is automatic)?

Autobot HQ
04-12-2009, 09:36
Atrahasis, the Warp-Lightning automatically hits, close combat or not, but besides that yes you're right on everything else.

Atrahasis
04-12-2009, 10:43
Did you actually check the book before posting? The word "automatic" does not appear in the Zzzzap! rules.

This also explains "roll for each bolt separately".

nosferatu1001
04-12-2009, 12:46
Roll for each bolt seperately is because, unlike pretty much every other unit, if it wipes out the closest unit (say, my weapon team that was next to it...as it always is when it fails its Ld test) it can then go on to hit another unit.

You are also told it will "strike the closest unit" - not attempt to strike, but WILL strike. this is taken by msot to mean it must automatically hit.

Atrahasis
04-12-2009, 13:06
It is just as easy (lacking any other information) to assume an implicit "will strike [if it successfully hits]" as it is to assume "it strikes [with no need to roll to hit]".

Thankfully, we have other information, namely the shooting rules in the rulebook.

The normal rules for shooting require LOS, range, and a roll to hit; Zzzzap! has exceptions for LOS and obstructing terrain, a range, but no exception for rolling to hit.

Without being told that it hits without such a roll, we cannot assume that it does so.

Blkc57
04-12-2009, 13:17
Atrahasis,

What about the next line in the book where it says 'If the closest unit dies from the first bolt, the second bolt hits the next closest unit in range" ? Seems it doesnt "roll to hit", but instead just hits the next unit. I admit they could have made the whole "roll for each bolt separately" much more clear as to what the heck you are rolling for, but in our gaming group we play it as the Zzzzap auto hits as well.

Bac5665
04-12-2009, 15:30
I would would say that the second line means that the second bolt auto-hits, but jeez, the whole section is extremely badly written.

And Atrahasis is right that either assumption is valid, and the wording makes it far from clear to me, one way or another.

Blkc57
04-12-2009, 16:52
The FAQ can't get here soon enough. When our group was voting on house rules to cover all the problems in the Skaven book, we finally ended up with something totalling like 15 pages. As one player said, its like having an army book to explain your army book.

Atrahasis
04-12-2009, 16:57
Last count I had 133 questions in the FAQ list, and I've been restraining myself from including some of the sillier ones.

Lord Inquisitor
04-12-2009, 16:59
I would have said it hits automatically, but it isn't very clear.

Wow, the Doomwheel really has to take the biscuit for "worst written unit entry ever." It looks like it hits automatically ("Each...bolt...will strike the nearest unit"). But then it says "Roll for each bolt separately". What's that line for? It's not for the Strength, because it says that "this is the Strength of all the bolts for this turn." Then again, if you roll a misfire "No more shots are fired this turn" ... no more shots? So we can have already fired shots?

Methinks the cut-and-paste daemons have had their way with the Doomwheel. Looks to me that it was originally playtested to roll for the strength for each bolt separately and perhaps they decided this gave too much of a chance of misfire and changed it, leaving the remnants of the old wording there.

But while it doesn't say it hits automatically, there's no reference as to how to deal with modifiers, and it does say "strikes the nearest unit" so I would say it is three automatic hits.

Atrahasis
04-12-2009, 17:02
There's no problem with modifiers - it ignores terrain (and therefore all cover), and all other modifiers apply. Why wouldn't they?

Lord Inquisitor
04-12-2009, 17:09
No, I'm pretty convinced now the three bolts hit automatically. Nowhere does it say that you roll to hit. "If the closest unit dies from the first bolt, the second bolt hits [not attacks] the next closest unit in range."

It doesn't require line of sight, I'm pretty sure it doesn't require a BS roll.

Atrahasis
04-12-2009, 17:12
How can you take a specific exception to LOS to mean an exception to something else?

As previously stated, the default for shooting is that it requires a roll to hit. Without a specific exception, the default rules apply.

Lord Inquisitor
04-12-2009, 17:24
*Shrug* I agree the rules are badly written, but it says that the unit is struck/hit by the bolt. The Zzzzap! is a special shooting attack, I think trying to apply the normal shooting rules for a weapon that goes against virtually every rule in the shooting phase is futile.

Honestly, you can play it any way you like. It still seems clear to me after reading it carefully that no "to hit" roll is required otherwise it would have been mentioned. The Zzzzap! has no profile and it clearly says that the target unit is "hit" not "attacked" or "shot at" or whatever. However, it remains ambigious as the phrase "automatically hits" is absent from the paragraph, and the whole entry seems to be ridden with copy/paste artifacts. I'm not going to argue it any further, it really isn't worth our time as it's always going to be something that has to be resolved by the two people playing. You're entitled to your opinion until we get a FAQ, but can we at least agree that there is no clear-cut answer, even if we disagree on the "best" way to play it?

Bac5665
04-12-2009, 19:20
How can you take a specific exception to LOS to mean an exception to something else?

As previously stated, the default for shooting is that it requires a roll to hit. Without a specific exception, the default rules apply.

At some point, with GW rules when they are written badly enough, you just have to shrug and pick a way to read the rules. I'm not sure if the DW has hit that point or not but it sure comes close. I have no idea what RAW says about DW shooting; the second attack hits. It uses that keyword, intentionally or not. That makes a difference to me. But I don't know what (if anything) that says about the first shot. When the rules break down that badly, it doesn't seem to me to be a bad thing to play it the way nearly everyone assumed it worked at the beginning, and autohit.

BretonniaorDeath
04-12-2009, 20:10
Personally I believe the Doomwheel can teleport, I mean the rules don't specifically say it can't teleport.

[edit] I wish I had the time in my day to day to write 155 questions about...anything.

enygma7
04-12-2009, 22:24
But then it says "Roll for each bolt separately". What's that line for?

I think it is trying to get accross the idea that you fully resolve each bolt seperately, i.e. roll to wound, deal with any saves or other affects, then resolve the next bolt. Agreed that it is extremely poorly worded. I'll be playing that it auto hits -"each warp lightning bolt has an 18" range and will strike the nearest target", which I infer to mean it WILL strike, i.e. no possibility of it not striking (i.e. missing).

Aljoman
12-02-2010, 04:44
Good read, mostly in good spirits too.

Yes i think the "roll for..." is in reference to the very next sentence "If the closest unit dies..." next one is hit.

As for the movement I have been playing 1. charge in the arc the wheel is in 2. a conservative only charge things you can see (my reading of the rules is different dut i'm happy to play like this till we get word) 3. 'declare' a charge after you roll the distance, not doubling the movement. This is the most friendly i can play it even if i think the last 2 are bull.

Thats what i get for following links in threads, excuse my minor necromancy.

Skyros
24-02-2010, 20:30
The doomwheel never charges. It only moves.

It moves like a chariot, and can wheel and turn as much as it wants. The restrictions on only wheeling once for a chariot have to do with charging...note that the doomewheel does *not* charge like a chariot.

Any restrictions on charging do not apply to a doomwheel. It enters combat by moving into someone.

So, RAW, yes, a doomwheel can 'charge' people out of LOS, it can spin 360 degrees and charge people behind it, it can zip around and charge people in the rear even if it was in their front flank, etc etc etc.

It's probably the single biggest example of fubar'ed rules in a book full of fubared rules. It's current RAW capabilities are ridiculously overpowered so try to come to an understanding with your opponent before hand.

And then there's the HPA...

Basically whoever was in charge of the Skaven book needs to be flogged, along with whoever is in charge of GW's playtesting (or utter lack thereof).

Poseidal
24-02-2010, 21:01
Any restrictions on charging do not apply to a doomwheel. It enters combat by moving into someone.

Where does it give an exception to this?

The rulebook clearly states that the only way to get into combat is a charge.

The HPA and Spawn both have a clause to 'count as' charging, as is pursuing into a fresh enemy.

Where's the Doomwheel's exception?

Lord Inquisitor
24-02-2010, 21:18
Charging isn't movement?

Poseidal
24-02-2010, 21:27
The rulebook (page 18) says the following: If you want to attack an enemy then you must charge him - you cannot simply move your model into close combat without declaring a charge first.

o0-NattyMcFatty-0o
24-02-2010, 21:44
Even though it doesn't declare charges as such, i still believe that if u intend to impact a unit (basically charging) you ought to charge in the original arc you were facing in, but thats from a more sporting perspective. you could reasonably argue against that though, but all we can really do is wait for an FAQ or agree with your opponent pre game how you intend to use it.

Haravikk
24-02-2010, 21:45
Well, doesn't the rule say somewhere that it counts as a charge if it hits another unit? The charge rules are fairly clear that the arc used is the one the unit started in when it began the charge.

Really if you take such a circuitous route you could end up counting as a failed charge as you didn't end up anywhere near where you should have :P

I'm curious if people think that the Skaven army book might seen an updated edition along with an FAQ? It seems that there's just so much that has been poorly worded or generally messed up that it could warrant one. I'm interested because I don't currently own a copy, so I'm trying to decide if I'd be waiting for nothing if I hold off on getting the army-book?
I'm not an exploitative player anyway, I intend to play warpstone tokens and banner of storms as one-use, avoid the hellpit abomination (since it's only an abomination in the sense that it has no place in the army IMO), and play the Doomwheel as the crazy hamster wheel that it is and just crash it into the first juicy target I see :)

Lord Inquisitor
24-02-2010, 21:56
Well, doesn't the rule say somewhere that it counts as a charge if it hits another unit? The charge rules are fairly clear that the arc used is the one the unit started in when it began the charge.
There is no such rule in the Doomwheel special rules, except when moving Out of Control.

Haravikk
25-02-2010, 10:21
Hmm, I'd still probably argue that it has to count as a charge to be a charge, otherwise the Doomwheel just happens to be touching an enemy unit, or has to stop 1" away like similar units do when they hit an invalid target (to avoid confusion).

So if it's valid to do so then the Doomwheel could trundle its way around behind a unit in one turn, then charge the next. Obviously rules as written there's no such stipulation, but as already noted the Skaven book is an absolute mess of poorly worded rules, and items that should probably only be one-use.

[edit] Actually I had a look, the entry for Rolling Doom specifically states that the Doomwheel moves like a chariot with exceptions, but none of the exceptions listed state that it can ignore the normal restrictions on charging, which implies that it must still follow them as with any chariot.

Covalent
25-02-2010, 12:03
Stop arguing, wait for the FAQ.. Don't you see there are 4 pages before this one and everything that had to be said was said? :shifty: