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EvilIncarnate
27-01-2006, 17:38
Well it seems that the Empire is going to be the next army redone after O&G are release. So, What do you guys think that needs changing in the list. Here are some of my ideas.

1. Magic items: Most of these can just be dropped about 75%. Some are useless and others are way overpointed.

2. Engineers: I like how the Dwarfs ones are but I don't want them to do the same thing.

etc......

Keller
27-01-2006, 18:26
I'd like to see some new magic items too. I have neer been one to take many magic items in my Empire army, so my usual selection was limited to the White Cloak, Holy Relic, Doom Fire Ring, Rod of Power, and the occasional Rung Fang. I've begun exploring the magic items now though, especially the weapons, and rather like some of the less than spectacular ones.
The Sword of Fate can be fun, though I don't like 1 use only things, which this more or less is. I take it from time to time and hope I will be fighting a big monster to whoop up on.
The WrymSlayer, for a mere 20 points, is actually pretty handy to have. It doesn't gaurentee a kill for a dragon or anything, but it does make wounding a bit easier, for a cheap price. I use it in larger games, where monsters are more common.
The Sword of Righteous Steel is also nice to have sometimes, especially with the abismal WS of the Count. A little expensive maybe, but you can't argue with a 2+ hit.

As for the Engineers, I like em the way they are. I'd like to see them increased to BS 5 or 6 though, so atleast they are good as the standard battle Captain. I would also like them influence the number of warmachines, at the very least the Steam Tank, so that we don't have to see any more 4-mage gunlines.

I would really like to see Inner Circle knights dependent on having a Grand Master. Maybe then you'd actually see some regular knights on the table. Also, I hope they make the Knightly Orders options they printed in WD legal in the new book. Customization = fun!

As with all books, I hope they remove 0-1 limitations. Composition slots should limit enough, but if not, limit them 0-1 per character type, as the Gnoblar Trappers are to the Ogre Hunter. I like playing 3000+ games, and I hate not being able to have more Great Swordsmen and Flaggelants, even when I have 2 Counts, or 4-6 Priests.

Speaking of Priests, I hope they add in a Lord level priest, such as the Arch Lector of Sigmar. I also hope for more dieties to worship, so you have even more options when taking them. Perhaps limit it to 1 god per army, as the VC are limited in blood lines.

DarkTerror
27-01-2006, 18:27
I'm not one to support special characters in normal games, but they need a boost for sure.

gunlinetastic
27-01-2006, 19:15
I would love to see the empire have engineers as an upgrade choice for artillery, like dwarves, so that its a 15pt upgrade and can reroll misfires and count as an extra crewman, or something like that. Master Engineeers being able to entrence warmachines would be good as well, give them BS5, maybe make them a bit cheaper. It would be brilliant to be able to have loads of engineers and warmachines, with a Steam Tank in there. Lots of enginners that are viable would be great.

Musician option for Pistoliers, and a decrease in points for them or they get heavy armour. As it is, they suck.

Huntsmen to have blunderbuss/pistol upgrades as an option would be cool.

Empire halbediers to become viable.

Im not a fan of imposing restrictions based on character selection. Making Inner Circle a Grand Master only thing would be bad in 4000pts games, where an Elector Count is probably your general, and you want some Inner Circle Knights as well. I really hope GW dont impose restrictions based on your character selection, that would be really bad.

Remove the 0-1 restrictions. Make them 0-1 per 1500pts or something. One unit of Greatswords in a 200000pts game?? Madness....

Special Characters need a boost.

And for the love of Sigmar, I want a normal general! Why does my Elector Count only have 3 attacks and weapon skill 5. Even goblins are better! He has the same number of attack as a gnoblar head honcho! Let us be honest about this- an Elector Count is going to be better at fighting than a gnoblar or a goblin. Why cant we have 4 attacks and weapon skill 6 like any other half decent general? Why is it assumed the Elector Count is terrible at fighting?? My Elector Count have proven unable to defeat a single Chaos Knight by himself. He brings shame to the Empire!

Okuto
27-01-2006, 19:43
-please lower the point cost of the Runefang!
-let halberdiers use their shields together?
-Give use a better engineer.....
-Make our count somewhat decent I guess, maybe a xtra something, though I'm ok with him now
-Please fix Luthor Huss!(he's soooo helpless)
-I don't want character dependant knights, nonononononono
-Let us take DOw as special?
-Fix our greatswords!!!(my goodness they are a pt stink)
-maybe some sort of gunpowder weapon on our huntsmen would be cool
-Let our Free company actually use pistols?

RGB
27-01-2006, 19:49
1. Agree with Pistolier musicians...other than that Pistoliers need no help.

2. Make Halberds both better and cheaper.

3. Re-view 0-1 restrictions

4. Engineers, done like Dwarfs

5. IC knights not Core anymore

6. Drop the EC. EC = Marshall. Upgrade to EC by taking the Runefang; however, this is not subtracted from his magic allowance. Make Runefang cheaper, maybe.

7. Power down the tank, perhaps.

8. Hunstmen have bows, archers have longbows! That makes sense!

9. Swordsmen at I3, cannot field all-swords.

10. Skirmishing CC detachment.

11. Magic item selection worst in the game. Review, make more fun, make more useful.

12. The Moot Allied Contingent; expand Kislev. Add both into the Empire book, as well as Stank rules and Middehnheim.

Calgar
27-01-2006, 20:28
1. Engineers to be like Dwarf Eng.

2. A new unit of PIKEMEN (afterall itīs the traditional weapon in the Empire as stated in the current book)

3. Huntsmen to be armed whit blunderbusses

4. Make a "knight on foot" option for the Empire Knights (like bretonnian heroes can use vows to dismount from mount). Same goes for White Wolfs. Kinda like the Teutogen guard-(ish)

5.Include an "Make your own state doctrines", just as the IG or SM chapter option.......to customise your troops. Both to have different advantages / disadvantages to choose from.

6.Better warrior priests!!

7. New / revised magical items.

8. Make the Mortar St 4.

Cherrystone
27-01-2006, 20:40
Musician option for Pistoliers, and a decrease in points for them or they get heavy armour. As it is, they suck.


I find that theyre one of the best troops in the army and possibly the game, they always do exceptional in the games i play, with and against.

A return of Halflings, even as a sublist. Imperial Dwarfs would also be a welcome return.

gunlinetastic
27-01-2006, 20:51
I find that theyre one of the best troops in the army and possibly the game, they always do exceptional in the games i play, with and against.


A single magic missile, a single volley of archer fire, 1 warmachine shoots at them, they get tied down in combat, they have low weapon skill, they die just as easily as empire spearmen with shields, they take up a special slot that should be occupied by a Cannon...all of this means that they are some of the worst troops you could ever field.

The Judge
27-01-2006, 21:11
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree *sarcasm*


that should be occupied by a Cannon

This is worrying to me...

But as for Pistoliers, they're also fast cavalry, and have two S4 armour piercing attacks each - making them one of the most power fast cavalry in the game. You should notice that all of these weaknesses are present in ALL fast calvary units, and yet I don't believe Dark Riders, Marauder Horsemen and others are "weak," nor are Ellyrion Reavers, who do also take up a special slot.

But this wasn't the subject... give the option for more flagellents - either make them like slayers (extra unit per priest) or just not 0-1. Maybe that should only be in a specialised religious army...schmeh.

Razhem
27-01-2006, 21:34
halbeds being decent (armor penetrating??), greatsword limit off or 1 per 2 normal infantry combat units , more interesting enginer, burn the steam tank, or at least make it reasonable.
And the mortar is fine in strenght 3, this coming from a ratman who most of the games he played his good old frined hawkeye, he nailed the center of the unit without moving the template... all the times that happened, I had half a unit dead and panicking rats, theyīr wonderful infantry killers, donīt need a boost, and donīt need a price hike, maibe could accept it if an enginer joined

Sayu
27-01-2006, 21:42
I wouldn't mind seeing the Middenheim list more integrated into the core Army Book by allowing multiple kinds of Warrior Priests and removing the 0-1 restriction on White Wolves.

I'm happy with the spread of Core/Special/Rare units - though I could see making Inner Circle Knights either Special/Rare or 0-1 per Grandmaster in the army.

gunlinetastic
27-01-2006, 21:53
But as for Pistoliers, they're also fast cavalry, and have two S4 armour piercing attacks each - making them one of the most power fast cavalry in the game. You should notice that all of these weaknesses are present in ALL fast calvary units, and yet I don't believe Dark Riders, Marauder Horsemen and others are "weak," nor are Ellyrion Reavers, who do also take up a special slot.


All fast cavalry are rubbish. Why take Pistoliers when you could take a Great Cannon? Why take Flagellents when you could have a Steam Tank or a Helblaster? Why take anything else when you could have artillery?

Razhem
27-01-2006, 22:00
cause tactics exist, and not everybody likes to just throw dice, the threads about what youd liked changed, you donīt like pistolers, fine youīve said it. Oh, and if you think fast cavalry is bad, face a dark elf army based on dark riders or a gobo army based on wolfs or a bat army based on wolfs, itīs uber fun

Cherrystone
27-01-2006, 22:50
Fast Cavalry - manoeuvre and tactics, dont like it? stick with the static "what shall i do next" gun line, pistoliers are exceptional fast cavalry.

Improving the halberdiers i would hope would be in the core rules for 7th edition.

jerrytown
27-01-2006, 23:41
(i am not a empire player, but here are some of my thoughts, might be good, might be bad)

personally, i'd like the empire engineers to be different than the dwarf ones, i think it would add flavor and style to the army, and not just be a "taller dwarf engineer" (i view it like the dark elf bolt thrower, it's like the HE's but with darker colours, you know)

the mortar looks fine to me, it is str 3, but you do get a LARGE template for it, i'd take the mortar Vs rock lobber anyday. (how many max hits can you get off a large template anyway ? 45, no ? vs 20 for the rock lobber? pretty good deal methinks)

the steam tank, i must say, i liked it better in 5th ed, it had wounds it had toughness, and if i recall correctly, you could tie it up in combat; there were ways for EVERY army to defeat it. now, for some armies, it's not possible to cause enough structure damage. i think that is what is important about the steam tank, empire is already a very strong army without it, i'd add it for "relic" reasons (i think that it was there ever since 5th or 4th ed), but if you are going to put it, make it so that it is possible for all armies to take care of it.

just some thoughts

jerrytown

Sayu
27-01-2006, 23:47
Yep, for the Steamtank I think it would be better to approach it as a tough chariot (T7 or 8?) with a special rule exempting from the normal S7 = Instant Death rule.

Leave it's weapons options the same. Maybe a standardized move of 6 or 7".

Maybe cut the points a bit too. It would fill a gap in the Empire list that way.

Keller
28-01-2006, 01:26
cause tactics exist, and not everybody likes to just throw dice Lets not start that argument again. Its already ruined another thread.

I would also very much like to see province-dependent options. I'm not terribly familiar with the IG list that was refered to, but being able to select general options which would alter the army a bit would be great. It would certainly allow for much more diversity between Empire lists, something that the fluff really supports too.

Trunks
28-01-2006, 03:33
All fast cavalry are rubbish. Why take Pistoliers when you could take a Great Cannon? Why take Flagellents when you could have a Steam Tank or a Helblaster? Why take anything else when you could have artillery?

Your posts get funnier by the second. HILLARIOUS.

There isn't one bad fast cavalry choice in the game, and Pistoliers are one of the strongest fast cavalry.

Of course, someone who thinks "needing tactics lowers your chances of winning (as opposed to relying soley on dice rolls)", probably woudn't see why.

The tactical advantages you can get out of these units are great. "Gunlines that require no thought or skill" become significantly better when you have maneuverable options to slow down the enemy to get more shooting in, hunt down their lone characters and warmachines, and generally be a nussance.

Trunks
28-01-2006, 03:38
Oh, and what I'd like to see is the ability to take more Flagellants. I don't play Empire, but the ability to take more would make it very tempting since I really like the models for the Flagellants. I might just buy them and use them as Dogs of War Norsemen.

Sayu
28-01-2006, 03:42
I do expect you'll get that wish (more Flagellants). They've been pushing them in various cult themed lists and articles. The religious aspect of the Empire seems to have been emphasized more at the tail end of 6th than the beginning, so I'd expect to see them play a bigger role in the list.

Razhem
28-01-2006, 09:31
Has long as they take rare choices, fine by me, just donīt wan to see too many unbreabkable units flying arund, making them preist dependant would be good, you can take 1 and another extra if you have a priest.

Dr Death
28-01-2006, 11:28
As an overall request i would like to see the empire get that little bit extra special, they have become rather bland with all these "new exciting and different" armies that have started making their way into warhammer from about the release of the skaven onward. How you do that is what i hope to explain.

Lords

I would say the Elector count is pretty cool as he stands, i certainly dont want to see him improoved but rather said goblins ability decreased. The Elector count is pretty much the benchmark Lord, and his magic banner rule gives him a little flavour.

The Grand Master option i think should be linked to the Knights of the Inner circle. Taking inner circle knights is just too predictable to go without some kind of limitation, so having it as a rule under the Grand Master (if you take one you can upgrade a unit to knights of the inner circle) would be a good option. Another thing i would like to see are subtle rules differences for the big Knightly orders- Reiksguard, Knights Panther, even Knights of the Blazing Sun. A little difference is good but i dont want to go "doctrine" on the empire.

I dont particularly see the need for a Lord level religious figure so keep it to the 3 choices we have.

Heroes

Captains are good. Again, they are very much the "benchmark". Perhaps we can add a "Grand Master" type entry (like the seneschal of the cult of ulric list) to the heroes, but that's just a thought.

Warrior priests are a solid choice at the moment, though adding the option for them to be priests of a variety of gods could be cool, or at least priests of Ulric. This is all part of my opinion that variation should be catered for "within the list" rather than having to make grand choices of which god or whatever you are following with your selection of generals and the like.

Engineers are a bit of a matter of contention. I like the way they were handled with the dwarves but again, you dont want them to be "tall dwarves" but have something different about them. Personally though, in the absence of any better suggestion, the dwarven way would be a good move.

One hero i did feel was missing was "witch hunter" but rather than being a hero, that could be a choice for free company regiments.

Core

State troops- Give them all heavy armour (perhaps except handgunners) and possibly drop the effectiveness of swordsmen a little, definantly push the humble halberdier as the state troop of choice.

Skirmishing detatchments makes sense to me, but i've not looked into the rules closely enough to see any unbalance that could occur due to it. I think it would look quite cool in a battle line to have closely ranked regiments flanked by pockets of skirmishing troops and certainly makes sense from a historical point of veiw where battle lines have been flanked by them.

Huntsmen with blunderbusses?:eyebrows: They're stealthy woodsmen, using their hunting skills to pick off enemies from difficult terrain, they're most certainly not going to go in there with a gun packed with nailsand start blowing the head off anyone who comes close.

Knights should get rules for the known orders back, while i like the annonimity of it, as it allows you to use your imagination, why knights of the white wolf should get special mention when the Emperors bodyguard do not i dont know. I like the idea of allowing them to dismount as well, saves space from making it a separate entry.

Special

The special slots are largely pretty balanced and good. One unit of Greatswords is one of the few 0-1 choices i agree with, though maybe you could increase it to one per elector count. You could even make the option to upgrade those to either foot Reiksguard or Teutogen Guard if you dont fancy the option of taking away points to dismount your knightly orders. Like Inner circle though, that could become too much of a default option.

It might also be worth incorperating, in limited amounts, some of the units "snubbed" in 6th ed. Halflings, Kislev and suchlike could all find there way into special, however, to make apsolutly clear these are a very much separate entity, i would probably slot them in as a semi-separate list at the back. "Optional" is very much the key word to avoid swamping the empire with too much outside influence again.

Rare

The Helblaster is fine, leave it.

Flaggellents are a bit of a tricky option as i think its a choice between either alleviating the restriction on number you can take, or taking away the 0-1 limit. My gut reaction is to take away the restriction, allowing you to feild a larger unit, and also because it seems unnatural to say "right 30 frothing madmen, thats your lot" wheras lumping them all in one block isnt quite as unjustified, i doubt any general would risk comprimising the concentrated effect of the flagellents or have trust a rabble of frothing self mutilating fanatics in any grander plans for battle.

The Steam tank i feel should make its way into the core list, simply as a relic or novelty peice. I actually really like its current rules and think that that is the manner in which it should be presented, if streamlined and balanced slightly. This could also warrent a 0-1, or at the least a 0-8 to represent its extremely rare status.

Dr Death

EvilIncarnate
28-01-2006, 15:36
I think it would be nice to make a Captain in a huntsman. Have the number of huntsman units be based on the number of captains with the scout special rule like the OK hunter and trappers are. Plus they can't be the army general.

ROCKY
28-01-2006, 15:56
I would actually like to see GW lower the point cost on the Templar Granddmaster. 160 points for what? A horse? and the warrior priest needs to gain 1 attack.

samw
28-01-2006, 16:21
If the warrior preist gained an attack captains would be far less common. He's currently a halfway house between wizard and warrior, which is as he should be.

I hope they include the Arch-Lector, the rules are there so there's no reason he couldn't be slotted in.

The EC should stay the same, he's a leader, not a fighter. People forget that EC's are politicians as much as fighters. If a Bretonnian isn't up to scratch he never gets passed knight errant, an Ogre, Skaven or Greenskin runt will be eaten, weak Drucchi will be bumped off by ambitious siblings etc. But if he's born into the right family a guy will become EC whatever. Only the HE have a similar system, and they have Intrigue at Court because of it. If you want a dedicated warrior, you've got the GM.

A bump in the price of handgunners, halberdiers getting heavy armour, the removal of 0-1 choices and the Tank would be good. Also making Hellblasters 1 per engineer to represent both their rarity and complexity.

I personally like the more religious tone the Empire is taking, but think it's gone about as far as I'd want it to. No-one wants the theocratic madness of the Imperium.

As a final thpught, it occurred to me that the Hochland Long Rifle was original used by hunters. An empire rare unit, huntsmen, all armed with hochlands, would be very cool.

ROCKY
28-01-2006, 16:46
well then samw, what about the grandmaster? He IS too expensive! I mean that if you give the elector the same crap he will still be cheaper! It is so unfair.

Nitron
28-01-2006, 17:02
Lords-

Elector count: A3.
Grandmaster: Affects taking of inner circle, like royal blood.
Wizard: As he is.

Heroes-
Captain: As he is.
Wizard: As he is.
Priest: Higher level spells.
Engineer: Battery fire rather than entrenchment.

Core-
Halberds: Something to make them more attractive, heavy armour.
Spears: Heavy armour.
Swordsmen: As they are.
Knights: One unit of inner circle per knights.
White wolf: No 0-1, but army may not contain standard knights.
Free company: Mixed weapons, including pistols, which must be placed in the front rank. Champion must be first to get pistol.
X-bows: As they are.
Hutsmen: 1 for every archer unit.
Archers: As they are.
Gunners: Heavy armour?

Special:
Greatswords: Core, 1 unit per count.]
Pistoliers: Heavy armour.
Cannon: As it is.
Mortar: S4.

Rare:
Hellblaster: Less prone to misfire.
Flagellants: 0-1+1 unit per priest.
Steamtank: Simplified, M3.

samw
28-01-2006, 17:04
On the GM issue:

A Bret Lord (exact same stats) is 110. His horse will cost you 21pts, a lance 6pts, a shield 3pts and add 2pts because the GM is wearing full plate instead of heavy armour. This makes 142pts. If I were to make my lord Immune to Pyschology with the Grail Vow, that's a further 28pts. While I understand that the G-Vow gives a little bit more (magical attacks and access to some extra weaponry), I feel this is countered by the fact the knightly unit the GM will doubtless accompany also becomes immune to pyschology.

Hence, we come to a rounded 170pts. In fact therefore, the GM is undercosted, the developers giving you 10pts back for the flexibility you lose.

Nitron
28-01-2006, 17:12
Yeah GM are immune to psych I forgot that!

ROCKY
28-01-2006, 17:26
Yeah I guess, but *sniff* It .....WAAAAA! I want him cheaper! oh well, i guess you are right about the immune to psychology thing. By the way Razhem, is that a Xenogears Avatar!!!! where you get that? Spill it! I love Xenogears! I loved it so much that i trained to level 70 something before i fought Rico!!!!

mageith
28-01-2006, 17:58
Overall I think the Empire is a very nice and balanced army. It only needs a few tweaks. This is the best list I saw.
[RGB]1. Agree with Pistolier musicians...other than that Pistoliers need no help.

2. Make Halberds both better and cheaper.

better or cheaper, maybe.

3. Re-view 0-1 restrictions

4. Engineers, done like Dwarfs

Yes, anything to make Engineers and priests more prevalent. If they have to be downgraded to champions, fine with me. This will add flavor.


5. IC knights not Core anymore
Probably won't happen but I think lots of folks would like to see something happen here. Perhaps a bigun or mainstay rule.


6. Drop the EC. EC = Marshall. Upgrade to EC by taking the Runefang; however, this is not subtracted from his magic allowance. Make Runefang cheaper, maybe.

7. Power down the tank, perhaps.

Amen on the tank. Probably the biggest complaint on the web, after High Elves, of course. :) Not so much power down, but bring into line with the rest of WFB rules, a super chariot perhaps with guns.


8. Hunstmen have bows, archers have longbows! That makes sense!

Agree


9. Swordsmen at I3, cannot field all-swords.

How does this make sense?


10. Skirmishing CC detachment.
This already exists with archers. Or are you thinking of something like skirmishing militia? A very minor tweak, but OK.


11. Magic item selection worst in the game. Review, make more fun, make more useful.

:) Dogs of War!!! I'm sure your wish will happen.


12. The Moot Allied Contingent; expand Kislev. Add both into the Empire book, as well as Stank rules and Middehnheim.[/QUOTE]

I too hope that their is much more flavor added to the Empire in terms of appendix armies that become legal and armies based on provinces. I already expressed my opinon on the Stank.

Ith

Keller
28-01-2006, 19:52
Lords-
Elector count: A3.
Grandmaster: Affects taking of inner circle, like royal blood.
Wizard: As he is.

Heroes-
Captain: As he is.
Wizard: As he is.
Priest: Higher level spells.
Engineer: Battery fire rather than entrenchment.

Core-
Halberds: Something to make them more attractive, heavy armour.
Spears: Heavy armour.
Swordsmen: As they are.
Knights: One unit of inner circle per knights.
White wolf: No 0-1, but army may not contain standard knights.
Free company: Mixed weapons, including pistols, which must be placed in the front rank. Champion must be first to get pistol.
X-bows: As they are.
Hutsmen: 1 for every archer unit.
Archers: As they are.
Gunners: Heavy armour?

Special:
Greatswords: Core, 1 unit per count.]
Pistoliers: Heavy armour.
Cannon: As it is.
Mortar: S4.

Rare:
Hellblaster: Less prone to misfire.
Flagellants: 0-1+1 unit per priest.
Steamtank: Simplified, M3.
E-gads! You'll make the Empire far too mighty!
The Elector Count already has 3 attacks, so I am not sure what you mean by that.

The priests are good as they are now, but I would like to see more gods available to choose from. They are a nice bridge between fighting characters and magic defense, with the good Ld to boot.

I like the current Engineer, but an added bonus might be nice. Just up his balistic skill at the very least, so a common Captain can't outshoot him. I definately do not want to see them become upgrades for warmachines, like the Dwarves now have.

Halberds, Swordsmen, and spearmen are all fine in the list. The problem comes from an imbalance in weapons in the core book, which hopefully will be adressed in 7th Ed.

Free Coms... I like them as they are now, but being able to select weapons/equipment would be nice. I am not sure how well mixed weaponry would work, as it tends to complicate things.

I would like to see a skirmishing, non-missile unit of militia added. Perhaps just have an upgrade of Free Coms dependent on normal, independent militia units (even normal Free Coms themselves).

Heavy armor on gunners? Thats crazy! They are already one of the best ranged units in the game, and they don't come with any armor. Heavy armor would make them atleast 10-12 points/model, and make them too expensive to be viable.

I would like to see a change in the Knightly Orders. I hope they incorperate the customization rules from WD, so as one can make an Order for their particular army. The standard knights just don't fit into my non-state armies.

Greatswords should stay Special, just lift the general 0-1 restriction. I'd be happy with an additional unit per Elector though. Perhaps more options on them such as making thme Tetugen Guard or Foot Rieksguard in selecting them, so as to theme the lists a bit more to your province/army.

Pistoliers need no help. I don't even see the need for a musician. They are supposed to be impetuous nobles, so not having command makes sense from a background point of view. Also, they are one of, if not the, hardest hitting fast cav unit in the game. A unit of 6 can devistate units with a proper charge.
The only change I would like to see is to be able to select different guns for a cavalry unit, such as the old Out Riders.

Mortars are already devistating with S3 on the large template. Most stonethrowers are only S4... I would like to see them follow the same targeting rules as stone throwers though. Either they can all shoot without LoS or they all need it. There's not reason a Mortar does but a Trebuchet doesn't.

The Helblaster is fine. I should be the last person to say that, but it is. Its extremely devistating when (if) it works, and is worth the risk of misfiring. Plus its more of a psychological weapon against your enemy, since no one wants to risk its wrath.

I agree with you on the Flagelants, but perhaps make them dependent on a Lord level Priest, should one be included. That way you have to really push the religious theme to get more unbreakable troops, which are pretty darn good with their 2 S5 attacks, even at WS2 (I'm used to skeletons and zombies anyway!)

Since I often play a militiabased / witch-hunter army, I would like to see some attack dogs included, much like in the Cult of Ulric. However, I fear this would go so far as to giving Empire too much. Its probably for the best that they don't have access to something other armies rely on.

Nitron
28-01-2006, 20:04
Elector count should have LD10.

gunlinetastic
28-01-2006, 20:12
Ive had enough of this. Everyone says the Elector Count is a politician, not a fighter, blah blah blah, but come on people, even gnoblar head honchos have 3 attacks! Politician or not, the Elector Count should be better at fighting than a gnoblar. Why cant he be like the DOW general, or the Bret lord? Or at least have the option for a 4 attack, weapon skill 6 lord on foot. These changes are not to much to ask for surely.

And dont power down the tank! Im happy as it is!

And dont make army selection be based on which lord you choose. Restrictions are bad.

The idea of upping the point cost of Handgunners is sickening. They are well costed for their abilities.



A bump in the price of handgunners, halberdiers getting heavy armour, the removal of 0-1 choices and the Tank would be good. Also making Hellblasters 1 per engineer to represent both their rarity and complexity.


This is a bad idea. Having to take a master engineer to have a helblaster is just...wrong. Like saying you have to take men at arms before you can have a trebuchet or mounted yeomen. Master engineers are crap.

Removal of 0-1 choices sounds like a good idea...but why remove the tank. Have pity on all of us that went out and bought one! Besides, I know they wont get rid of it, so it doesnt matter.



As a final thpught, it occurred to me that the Hochland Long Rifle was original used by hunters. An empire rare unit, huntsmen, all armed with hochlands, would be very cool.


And you would take thss over a Helblaster or a Steam Tank because...?

The Mortar is fine at strength 3.

To be honest, I dont really want to see many changes. Im perfectly happy with the Empire as it is. Except Pistoliers.....



There isn't one bad fast cavalry choice in the game, and Pistoliers are one of the strongest fast cavalry.


They are the worst fast cav in the game. Everything else is armed with 24 inch range bows, or 16 inch range shortbows...in other words, longer range than pistoliers. Pistoliers die as easy as empire spearmen with shield. An Empire spearmen is 7pts, a Pistolier is 19!




Of course, someone who thinks "needing tactics lowers your chances of winning (as opposed to relying soley on dice rolls)", probably woudn't see why.


It does lower your chances of winning. I can say this from experience, the more stuff you move in your movement phase, the worse it gets. Empire was meant to sit back and shoot the enemy.

And relying solely on dice rolls is fine, as long as the statistics are on your side. And I do have a tactic...1...flee from charges, and that leaves the enemy stranded in front of my volley guns. Simple.



The tactical advantages you can get out of these units are great. "Gunlines that require no thought or skill" become significantly better when you have maneuverable options to slow down the enemy to get more shooting in, hunt down their lone characters and warmachines, and generally be a nussance.


Gunlines, normally have all special slots filled with artillery. In fact, I now call my special slots "artillery slots". There is nothing else viable to put in them.

And I can slow down the enemy with Huntsmen and/or a Pegasus captain thanks.

And hunting down warmachines? Why bother to do that, when an extra Great Cannon can just target said warmachine and blow it up. No point moving all that long way across the board.

Hunting down lone characters can easily be done with cannon sniping and overguessing.

mageith
28-01-2006, 20:21
E-gads! You'll make the Empire far too mighty!

I agree. Almost all changes are improvements in an army that already is pretty much balanced.


Halberds, Swordsmen, and spearmen are all fine in the list. The problem comes from an imbalance in weapons in the core book, which hopefully will be adressed in 7th Ed.
Probably not in a way you hope. But heavy armor all around is a particularly bad idea, especially if the HW shield bonus remains (which it probably won't). But even if it doesn't, I don't think its necessary nor does it feel realistic (If that's a concern).

There's probably too much armor (saves) now in the game.

Ith

Razhem
28-01-2006, 20:54
RKATTAN, youīve guessed it, the good old wiseman is my avatar, you can find them in http://ffworld.free.fr/ffworld/images/avatars/xen/ , hope you like them :)
Going back to the empire, people might think of cutting my head for this, but a way of making the engineer more interesting (apart from upping th bs) is that only he can take hochland long rifles, apart from making him necesary for using hellblasters, also Iīd give special upgrades for units and such if thereīs one in the army (sick little inventions of his) or extra experimental gear from him, repeater long rifle or grenade and such, could be fun, but this is just to spice him up
The lord level preis I think would be a nice adittion, anda defenitely, no extra armour on infantry, theyīre based on using light infantry in vast numbers with their coordination to take out their enemies, not by armour saving them to boredom, although a foot knight unit I think would be fine (has special), that or greatswords getting options (although another 2+ save infantry unit in the game could be a pain, but hell, the empire ainīt one to not be worthy of it).
Has for the steam tank, slappyīs got a point about buying the thing, in that case, a putting it in line with the general warhammer rules (it gots wounds ladie) would be necesary, that and to tone it down or cost it correctly,Iīd also prefer it restricted to one for each 3000 pts or so if itīs still very powerful. The handgunners Iīd increase the cost in 1 point, theyīre too damn good has is, one of the best if not the best pure shooting unit in the game, might give interest of people on crosbowmen for point saving factor
Oh, and slappy, do you run too if your priceless hellblaster is charged?

gunlinetastic
28-01-2006, 21:01
Oh, and slappy, do you run too if your priceless hellblaster is charged?

First of all, please can you just tell me why you are calling me slappy???

And yes, I do run if my Helblaster is charged. Because then I can nuke them with some more heavens magic and Handgunners/Cannon grapeshot. And my Helblasters aint normally charged. One is on the tank, so is fine and safe. One is setup in the gap behind my handgunners, so it can see, but a serious infantry/cavalry unit cant charge it, so it gets to shoot some more.

Of course, I only run if I can see that the enemy is in range. I wouldnt flee from a charge that came from around 40 inches away.

And about increasing the points of Handgunners so more people would take crossbowmen...it would certainly make me think about taking Crossbowmen..and thats a bad thing. Painting all those Handgunners was enough, thankyou, I dont want to have to paint even more shooty stuff....ive only just got all my shooty stuff painted (well, about 3 months ago).

Sayu
28-01-2006, 21:35
"but a way of making the engineer more interesting (apart from upping th bs) is that only he can take hochland long rifles"

Long Rifles are only good in large numbers already. This would make them completely useless unless you dramatically changed the rules for them.

Pokpoko
28-01-2006, 21:46
well,i don't play empire(no,i'v played it twice for fun of it),but i can say one thing-make the godddamn steamtank in line with other units in the game-it's rules are so terribly different than anything else that it hurts.give it loads of speical rules(stable platform,to alow it to shoot after move, immune to psych etc.)but ones that don't require fiskload of tabels and more rolling dice than entire magic phase.
also,there is nothing wrong with pistoliers, when i took them(4 units,not a single damn cannon in the list:) )they simply rocked-they accounted for full unit of pegasus knights, some knight errands, and other "here and there" casulaties.and he couldn't do a damn due to the lenght of his lance formations.sweetness.if i could take them in core, i'd begin empire army on the spot(i'd even live with losing the Fast Cav. rule for heavy armour if the were Core choice)
Gunline(or is it slappy:D?)-the Count has low profile because Empire is not about chracters, it's about units.you want strong hereos, you play BD VC or Chaos.damn,even dwarves(and you still can have your gunline)

Lafeel Abriel
28-01-2006, 22:06
Lets see..

Drop the Steam tank, period. It's far simpler than actually trying to make this oversized block of cheese work with the game.

Greatswords: 1 per 2k points sounds fair enough to me.

Pistoliers: no change is needed what so ever, these guys are just perfect as is.

If I think of any other suggestions I will post them, but these are the ones I can think of from the top of my skull, and I am proud to say "I play Empire (and don't use a Steam tank, ever, either)"

ROCKY
28-01-2006, 22:15
Thank you Razhem (wiseman)! Although i am a fan of Grahf....errrr anyway, about the empire... I also say drop steam tank, and not make innercircle knights core, and finally up the price on repeater handguns! (Yes, I am a chaos player!)

jerrytown
28-01-2006, 22:39
Ive had enough of this. Everyone says the Elector Count is a politician, not a fighter, blah blah blah, but come on people, even gnoblar head honchos have 3 attacks! Politician or not, the Elector Count should be better at fighting than a gnoblar. Why cant he be like the DOW general, or the Bret lord? Or at least have the option for a 4 attack, weapon skill 6 lord on foot. These changes are not to much to ask for surely.

i've got no problem with upping the stats for the elector count, but you do know what it means, no ? upping the stats means upping the price; if that's cool with you, that's cool with me; but i must say, i always liked better the cheaper options of getting a lord,



And dont power down the tank! Im happy as it is!

And dont make army selection be based on which lord you choose. Restrictions are bad.


trust me on this, the tank is NOT fine the way it is, and mostly because it doesn't follow any normal rules. one thing that really bothers me for example, is the fact that you can't tie it down in CC and it can charge 360*.
that means that you can never effectively take care of it in any way. if you tweak it well, it'll never have a malfunction (29 strcuture points will see to that).





And you would take thss over a Helblaster or a Steam Tank because...?


and this does proove that the steam tank needs to be changed.
that's why i love my dwarfs, all three of our rare choices are just as good as the next (without be overpowerfull); the flame canon, the organ gun and the gyrocopter are all great and you chose which one you want according to personal preference (and style) and the army you're up agaisnt; there's no no-brainer overpowered option.



It does lower your chances of winning. I can say this from experience, the more stuff you move in your movement phase, the worse it gets. Empire was meant to sit back and shoot the enemy.


no, dwarfs were meant to sit back and shoot (having movement of 3 with no cavalry), and even then, not that much.
empire has heavy cavalry as core units (for example), empire has a lot more to offer than just gunline; and no, having to use tactics does not lower your chances of winning, it just means you have to think a little more, that's all.





And hunting down warmachines? Why bother to do that, when an extra Great Cannon can just target said warmachine and blow it up. No point moving all that long way across the board.

Hunting down lone characters can easily be done with cannon sniping and overguessing.

overguessing...
wasn't there a line in the main rulebook about sportsmanship...:rolleyes: ?

i've never used cannons for character snipping, bolt throwers yes (if the guy is alone), but with a cannon, just seems too unrealistic in any perspective for me to go for it.

jerrytown

Sayu
29-01-2006, 05:27
"i've never used cannons for character snipping, bolt throwers yes (if the guy is alone), but with a cannon, just seems too unrealistic in any perspective for me to go for it."

Me either, unless they're on a dragon/wyvern/griffon/chariot/etc., or if they're a Minotaur or something like that. Then they're just begging for a cannon ball in the chest. ;)

Overguessing is difficult to prove, but I would certainly ban someone from my league if they abused the rules in that manner.

Dr Death
29-01-2006, 10:37
*************: Please for the love of all thats holy dont turn this into a thread purely devoted to increasing the effectiveness of your one, rather ill advised style of play.

This is a thread for people to share their veiws on what would make the empire a more entertaining and possibly marginally more competitive army to play, it is not a chance for one person to vent their frustration and competitive urges on everyone else. You've had your say, we appreciate you prefer a shooty Empire army and think pistoliers arnt worth it, it appears most other people disagree with it, there, its over and done with. Now if you can find some proof that you can put across in a way that doesnt sound nearly as frenzied or irate then you are welcome to argue the toss, but as it stands you're just heckling other people with the same argument based on "because you say so".

As for your problem with Elector counts, i think that is something that needs to be changed on the goblins and Gnoblars part rather than the Empire's by reducing their respective stats rather than go "rules creep" by pushing the stats further and further up.

As for the Steam Tank i really would be mortified to see it just become an elaborate chariot. I think people are using the Steam Tank in a far too competitive way, taking it to tournements where it will, in that situation, slow down play endlessly. The Steam Tank really is something that you should only take off the shelf on a special occassion. After all there are only 8 in existance. Simplifying it or taking it out the list entirely would be a huge waste of what is a very fun model to feild and a very interesting ruleset to feild it with and so yet again renegating it to play "second fiddle" seems like it is basically pandering to those who are using it unscrupulously.

Refine its rules by all means but dont notch it down to the lowest common denominator.

Dr Death

Razhem
29-01-2006, 11:16
Has long as I donīt have to tailor make my army to take that thing down or ignore it, Iīll be happy, also that any army can take it down, not just cry and hope it blows itself up, has a ratman I donīt have too many problems taking it out although I doo need to know itīs coming, donīt usualy use jezzails or the cannon, but other armys have to prepare there whole strategy for it and some directly arenīt able to take it down, thatīs my main gripe, you use a lot of resources to make it go boom, or you try to ignore it all game and hope it doesnīt cause too much havoc. If it has too remain the same, up itīs cost quite a bit, and Iīm talking special caracter cost
Anyway I donīt think it would be too bad if it was like a chariot inmune to strenght 7 autokill and with thougness 6, 6 wounds that can have a canon on top, just donīt want it pissing all over the core rules

gunlinetastic
29-01-2006, 12:45
also,there is nothing wrong with pistoliers, when i took them(4 units,not a single damn cannon in the list )they simply rocked-they accounted for full unit of pegasus knights, some knight errands, and other "here and there" casulaties.and he couldn't do a damn due to the lenght of his lance formations.sweetness.if i could take them in core, i'd begin empire army on the spot(i'd even live with losing the Fast Cav. rule for heavy armour if the were Core choice)

4 units of Pistoliers is insane! And why couldnt he do a thing? The Pegasus knights could have taken them out, magic could have hurt them, peasant bowmen can kill them, a direct hit from a trebuchet could work...

Cannons are much better.



Gunline(or is it slappy?)-the Count has low profile because Empire is not about chracters, it's about units.you want strong hereos, you play BD VC or Chaos.damn,even dwarves(and you still can have your gunline)

Pur-lease. The Empire is not about characters, fine. But if the Empire isnt, then goblins sure aint! Yet the Goblin has 4 attacks.

I would never consider playing Dwarves. They DO NOT make anything like an effective gunline, as the empire have acsess to cheaper handgunners and heavens magic.


Lets see..

Drop the Steam tank, period. It's far simpler than actually trying to make this oversized block of cheese work with the game.


Why? Because everyone complains about them. Well..I dont like Bretonnian Knights Errant....maybe if I complained enough, and got other people to complain, we could take Knights Errant out of the Bret list! Somehow I dont think thats going to happen.

Its not as if the Tank is a new thing anyway, you have all had plenty of time to get used to it. I think the real problem is you all dont like the Empire having such a powerful thing. If the Steam Tank is dropped, then they had better drop all the dragons, griffons, hippogyphs, manticores, giants etc...



i've got no problem with upping the stats for the elector count, but you do know what it means, no ? upping the stats means upping the price; if that's cool with you, that's cool with me; but i must say, i always liked better the cheaper options of getting a lord,

You want cheap lord, fine. Just add another lord to the Empire book, with weapon skill 6 and 4 attacks. Then you have the choice. I would be glad to pay a few extra points for weapon skill 6 and 4 attacks.



trust me on this, the tank is NOT fine the way it is, and mostly because it doesn't follow any normal rules. one thing that really bothers me for example, is the fact that you can't tie it down in CC and it can charge 360*.
that means that you can never effectively take care of it in any way. if you tweak it well, it'll never have a malfunction (29 strcuture points will see to that).

Other things can charge 360*, such as lone characters and skirmishers. Thats hardly a new rule. You cant tie it down in combat. Get used to it. There are hardly alot of rules to learn, they are on the games workshop web site, and you can look through them at your leisure. So if you dont want the game to be slowed up by the tank, read the rules for it now!

I dont think it was supposed to malfunction at the start. But when you have got it down to around 18-19 hull points, it becomes dangerous to generate all 5 steam points. Get it down to around 12, and it wont be moving anywhere quickly.

Lots of ways to do this, war machines, great weapons, lances on the charge, flying monsters...



and this does proove that the steam tank needs to be changed.
that's why i love my dwarfs, all three of our rare choices are just as good as the next (without be overpowerfull); the flame canon, the organ gun and the gyrocopter are all great and you chose which one you want according to personal preference (and style) and the army you're up agaisnt; there's no no-brainer overpowered option.

You sure about that? I would take a Gyrocopter any day of the week. March blocking the enemy is something dwarves really need, and miners just dont cut it!



no, dwarfs were meant to sit back and shoot (having movement of 3 with no cavalry), and even then, not that much.
empire has heavy cavalry as core units (for example), empire has a lot more to offer than just gunline; and no, having to use tactics does not lower your chances of winning, it just means you have to think a little more, that's all.


Well if Dwarves were meant to sit back and shoot, how come does the Empire do it better?

And while it may look as though Empire has lots to offer, in reality there are only 2 competetive army lists. Gunline with a Steam Tank, or Heavy Cavalry with a Steam Tank.

And, moving all those infantry blocks slows down the game immensly. Trying to figure out where they should all go...deploying the things is a nightmare. They take up so much space! And they never do anything useful anyway- normally they sit there doing nothing. Much better to skip the movement phase entirly, you dont get victory points for moving aroudn the enemy, you get victory points from shooting and magicking them to death.



overguessing...
wasn't there a line in the main rulebook about sportsmanship... ?

Where I play, that line doesnt carry water. Its a cop out anyway, GW realising they couldnt make a proper rule to stop it, so turned to "sportsmanship". Its like that "if players disagree on the wording of a rule, roll a dice to decide". Wouldnt it be best to write clear rules in the first place?



i've never used cannons for character snipping, bolt throwers yes (if the guy is alone), but with a cannon, just seems too unrealistic in any perspective for me to go for it.


Why is it OK with a bolt thrower, but not with a Cannon? Cannons are allowed to character snipe, it even says so in the war machine article.


*************: Please for the love of all thats holy dont turn this into a thread purely devoted to increasing the effectiveness of your one, rather ill advised style of play.

This is a thread for people to share their veiws on what would make the empire a more entertaining and possibly marginally more competitive army to play, it is not a chance for one person to vent their frustration and competitive urges on everyone else. You've had your say, we appreciate you prefer a shooty Empire army and think pistoliers arnt worth it, it appears most other people disagree with it, there, its over and done with. Now if you can find some proof that you can put across in a way that doesnt sound nearly as frenzied or irate then you are welcome to argue the toss, but as it stands you're just heckling other people with the same argument based on "because you say so".


Well, you could have fooled me that you were trying to make them marginally more competetive. Most of the stuff ive read on this thread is along the lines of get rid of the steam tank, make helblasters only avaliable when you take engineers, up the price of handgunners, make Inner Circle knights only avaliable when you take a Grand Master...

*sigh* and I have already said why Pistoliers are a waste of time. Not to mention the cost of the things...Ģ25 for a unit of 5. If you want 2 units its Ģ50!

Dr Death
29-01-2006, 13:45
While i would hate to go into a discourse about the "right way" to play the game, *************, i think that some of your comments really do deserve some kind of mention to the effect.

I think you take the game and the rules ever so slightly too seriously. Your gaming philosophy seems to be "if it doesnt say i cant then i can" which to be honest has never worked for anyone. While it would be an ideal situation to put reams of rules in place to counteract every hyper competitive and manipulative exploitation of the rules, unfourtunatly in a game that covers as many vast and varied situations as this one. it would be an apsolute nightmare to play out every of the millions of such occurances and concoct new and exciting rules counters to make sure that such blazen.... and i do hate to use the term but "power gaming" does not occur.

Now frankly i dont care if you define what i call "competitive" as "hyper, something to proove, competitive". And equally i dont care if you think that in order to obtain that goal with the empire, the only armies you can use are the Gunline with a Steam Tank, or Heavy Cavalry with a Steam Tank combo's. But this thread is not here to cater for your "niche" (one of many words i could use to describe your attitude) interests in ruining the spirit of the game.

That you beleive that sportsmanship and playing the game in the right spirit is "a cop out" says to me that you are playing the wrong game. Sportsmanship is an integeral part of any game be it Warhammer, snooker, rugby or anything else. People seem to think they can come along play warhammer and then blame the designers for not stopping them from acting like a tit.

Warhammer is not a competitive game, it is a strategic simulation. The rules are there merely as an arbiter in what is essentially playing with toy soldiers, just as you might as a kid. Assuming you do not seek to bring down the ruleset it works perfectly well. To quote an article by Dave cain in the first WD i ever bought-

"The warhammer armies books are written to allow players as wide a choice as posssible in selecting forces. This was done to free up players and allow for the construction of themed armies, for use in scenarios and the like."

That is basic gaming fact, the games designers are not stupid and they are not leaving the door open for you to take advantage of the rules but they are hoping that people with have at least the scrupals to play the relative race in the way it was meant to be played.

Right back to the empire:D

Razhem, while i do agree about a slight toning down, i think that it is part of warhammer's nature that some armies will have more trouble against the tank than others. I think the tanks ability to withdraw from combat is rather infuriating, and that is possibly the only thing i would change, just to put a slight halt to its mobility and so it doesnt just rampage from unit to unit doing doom and damage. Just like tanks in the first world war, the Steam tanks main purpose would just be the fear factor of seeing a boat on land with a cannon.

Dr Death

Razhem
29-01-2006, 14:03
Dr Death, thatīs actually my main gripe with it, and if they take it out I would be very pleased, although it should be able to shoot into itīs combat and do extra hits for ramming (d3 or d6?), so it can kill and maybe even break in combat, just so a slave/ gobbo doesnīt make it stay there all game, would be a nice solution, maybe d6+1 hits at strenght 5...
Has for good ol slappy, I think itīs time I told you why I call you that, every time I read one of your posts I have the burning desire to slap you silly, so slappy appeared, if you donīt like me calling you that, then stop being a jerk and turning every thread you go into a festival of bashing tactics in all itīs forms and ways, especially in the empire, itīs a damn good army and various players Iīve known have shown me this, and they didnīt depend on a damn gunline and a metal brick (although the model is wonderful...), and dwars do great gunlines, unlike yours, when the enemy gets there, they can kick his ass, they donīt depend so much on killing everything outright, just weaken them and finish them off.

Anvilbrow
29-01-2006, 15:43
Pistoliers= the best fast cav in the game. Period. Playing Empire for over 15 years I *think* qualifies me to say that. And fast cav wins games. Why do you think people expend the shooting and magic to take them out? Put a cannon and a unit of pistoliers on the board and most people will expend great amount of effort to take out the pistoliers. Eventually the cannon will take itself out of the game.

Speaking of cannons, using them to overguess and snipe characters= pathetic. As for the bolt thrower issue, using them to snipe characters is perfectly reasonable due to the targeting restrictions. If a character is out on his or her own making a legal target than by all means nail him. The same goes for cannons, but overguessing to hit a character is really pitiful.

As for the steam tank, I have three (OOP version, new version and one mounted on a stegadon for my Lustrian Conquistadors), although I haven't used one in a long time and never in a battle of 2000 or less. I think of them like monsters, great for giant battles of 3000-10000 points (and yes G-tastic, I can field 10000 points of Empire- 30 pistoliers, with NO steamtank). However due to the issues that inevitably arise from using the steamtank, I'd just as soon see GW get rid of it myself.

Invariably people will feel differently about what units are overpriced or not, and no amount of arguing will change that. For example, most people say sea guard are overpriced and inneffective. I love them because they do double duty as fighters and as shooters and to me that's worth the extra point cost WHEN used well.

G-tastic, try stepping out of your comfort zone and try some tactics you normally don't, you might find you like something. If not, by all means, stick to the tried and true (and roundly criticized) gunline with multiple mages with heavens or life lore, but be prepared for the inevitable criticism that goes with it.

Galadrin
29-01-2006, 16:01
Where I play, that line doesnt carry water. Its a cop out anyway, GW realising they couldnt make a proper rule to stop it, so turned to "sportsmanship". Its like that "if players disagree on the wording of a rule, roll a dice to decide". Wouldnt it be best to write clear rules in the first place?

Wow, this argument is really, truly depressing. Far too many people play this game like the only fun is winning. Yes, you can make a cheesy, crush and destroy army, but what ever happened to extensive tactics, combined arms and clever maneuvers? If you really want to win so bad, play in the Special Olympics, I heard everyone wins there.

As for the Empire, I would like to see a lot of changes in models, such as plastic Halberdiers and also new knights (they are OK as is, but still I find they are truly showing their age).

I would also add:

Pikes in the place of spears (or maybe an upgrade if people want to keep spears)
Heavy Armour options for State Troops that are not Swordsmen (and new models with Heavy Armour)
Maybe Knights on Foot
Great Swords to be Immune to Panic
Engineers a little more useful or cheaper or 2 for 1 Hero slot
Huntsmen with Longbows

gunlinetastic
29-01-2006, 18:57
I think you take the game and the rules ever so slightly too seriously. Your gaming philosophy seems to be "if it doesnt say i cant then i can" which to be honest has never worked for anyone. While it would be an ideal situation to put reams of rules in place to counteract every hyper competitive and manipulative exploitation of the rules, unfourtunatly in a game that covers as many vast and varied situations as this one. it would be an apsolute nightmare to play out every of the millions of such occurances and concoct new and exciting rules counters to make sure that such blazen.... and i do hate to use the term but "power gaming" does not occur.

Now frankly i dont care if you define what i call "competitive" as "hyper, something to proove, competitive". And equally i dont care if you think that in order to obtain that goal with the empire, the only armies you can use are the Gunline with a Steam Tank, or Heavy Cavalry with a Steam Tank combo's. But this thread is not here to cater for your "niche" (one of many words i could use to describe your attitude) interests in ruining the spirit of the game.

That you beleive that sportsmanship and playing the game in the right spirit is "a cop out" says to me that you are playing the wrong game. Sportsmanship is an integeral part of any game be it Warhammer, snooker, rugby or anything else. People seem to think they can come along play warhammer and then blame the designers for not stopping them from acting like a tit.


I would welcome a much longer rulebook, with lots of text that forbids all the clipping and overguessing. Just a bit more to read, thats all. And if it helps prevent the inevitable arguements...

Player A:"that unit was only 6 inches away, and you guessed 60. Overguessing scumbag".

Player B: "Prove that I overguessed. You cant".

I think that a longer rulebook that stops this kind of thing would be great.

And soportsmanship isnt a part of the game. It doesnt say as part of the main rules that you HAVE to be sportsmanlike, it just says that you SHOULD be sportmanlike. And sportmanship varies from person to person.

And it is that designers fault for not stopping people from acting like a tit. They should put in clear, concise rules, which are not open to exploitation.



Has for good ol slappy, I think itīs time I told you why I call you that, every time I read one of your posts I have the burning desire to slap you silly, so slappy appeared, if you donīt like me calling you that, then stop being a jerk and turning every thread you go into a festival of bashing tactics in all itīs forms and ways, especially in the empire, itīs a damn good army and various players Iīve known have shown me this, and they didnīt depend on a damn gunline and a metal brick (although the model is wonderful...), and dwars do great gunlines, unlike yours, when the enemy gets there, they can kick his ass, they donīt depend so much on killing everything outright, just weaken them and finish them off.

Dwarves do not "kick the enemies ass". They each have 1 strength 3 attack, the same as my handgunners. The only difference is they are leadership 9, so they hold better when the enemy gets there. BUT they dont get a second shooting phase (magic), they dont get the Steam Tank, they get that piece of **** called an Organ Gun instead of a Helblaster, they dont have Knights. Now, the Empires bad leadership is not so much of a problem. We have Knights and a Steam Tank to charge in when the remains of the enemy get close, so we can finish them off. In quite alot of my games, my Handgunners never see combat. When the enemy are about to charge my Handgunners, I charge them with my Steam Tank/Knights, and really finish them off.

And the amount an Empire gunline can kill compared to a Dwarf gunline is quite a significant difference, given average dice rolls. Our Handgunners are much more point effective, our Cannons are better, out magic is (obviously) better, out Volley Gun is better than the Organ gun..

And if you know Empire players that do well without a line of guns and a metal brick, good for them. Ill continue to use my line of guns and metal brick, confident it gives me an advantage over every other army out there.


Pistoliers= the best fast cav in the game. Period. Playing Empire for over 15 years I *think* qualifies me to say that. And fast cav wins games. Why do you think people expend the shooting and magic to take them out? Put a cannon and a unit of pistoliers on the board and most people will expend great amount of effort to take out the pistoliers. Eventually the cannon will take itself out of the game.


People expend the shooting and magic to take them out because they give so many victory points, for relatively little effort.

Why will the Cannon take itself out of the game. Statistically speaking it only blows itself up once every 6 games.



Speaking of cannons, using them to overguess and snipe characters= pathetic. As for the bolt thrower issue, using them to snipe characters is perfectly reasonable due to the targeting restrictions. If a character is out on his or her own making a legal target than by all means nail him. The same goes for cannons, but overguessing to hit a character is really pitiful.

I wouldnt bother trying to snipe with a bolt thrower. You probably suffer long range (-1) and shooting at a single model (-1). So 5s or 6s to hit, depending on your ballistic skill.

And if people dont want me to overguess to hit their characters, then they should put them in units. If a lv 4 mage has been sitting behind a high elf spearmen regiment and has been blasting my forces with magic, I will do what is needed to be done...




As for the steam tank, I have three (OOP version, new version and one mounted on a stegadon for my Lustrian Conquistadors), although I haven't used one in a long time and never in a battle of 2000 or less. I think of them like monsters, great for giant battles of 3000-10000 points (and yes G-tastic, I can field 10000 points of Empire- 30 pistoliers, with NO steamtank). However due to the issues that inevitably arise from using the steamtank, I'd just as soon see GW get rid of it myself.


I can field 6k of Empire, alas only 1 Steam Tank, but I have made it so I can put any combination I want on it. I always use one in 2000pts or more! It is simply to good to leave at home!



G-tastic, try stepping out of your comfort zone and try some tactics you normally don't, you might find you like something. If not, by all means, stick to the tried and true (and roundly criticized) gunline with multiple mages with heavens or life lore, but be prepared for the inevitable criticism that goes with it.

I have tried Empire infantry a few times, with fairly decent results (not as good as the gunline though, mostly minor victories and the occasional draw then major/massacre wins). As I mostly play Chaos, their infantry are better than mine to begin with, so im already at a disadvantage. He uses 5 Chosen Chaos Knights+ Lord in a single unit, and because the infantry blocks alot of fire arcs, I often cant take enough of them out to stop them caving through a load of men. The Lord is armed with the Steam crusher mace (bonecrusher mace..this thing is death to steam tanks..learned this the hard way) and it carves through infantry nice as well. Hard unit to stop. And direrting them into forests (they are knorne knights) doesnt get any victory points, it just stops them from getting any. Rest of the army is fine to deal with, as I dont have the same vunerability to Screamers and Furies (he uses both). Terror Checks from the Hellcannon (yep, uses one of those as well... the :cheese: of it!) are not a problem with leadership 9, you can hold any charge with the count and BSB (and the count has rod of command, just in case). Thing is, you cant break the enemy yourself.Empire infantry doesnt really kill anything, and he sends warhounds to deal with detachments and the like. While I can beat down the warhounds, it does stop me making that all important countercharge, and it takes forever to manuever to get a flank charge again...and its boring, slows down the game, makes the movement phase stretch out a long way, shortens the shooting and magic phase...all bad things. And Empire infantry is hideously expensive.



Wow, this argument is really, truly depressing. Far too many people play this game like the only fun is winning. Yes, you can make a cheesy, crush and destroy army, but what ever happened to extensive tactics, combined arms and clever maneuvers? If you really want to win so bad, play in the Special Olympics, I heard everyone wins there.


The only fun IS winning. Its why we play the game. The only objective in real war is to win, not to have fun. This is war. Hence, the only objective is to win.

Sayu
29-01-2006, 19:08
"And it is that designers fault for not stopping people from acting like a tit. They should put in clear, concise rules, which are not open to exploitation."

Err, no. Tighter rules (in play and composition) reduce the flexibility to make themed lists and come up with original scenarios and twists to keep things innovative and interesting, and it makes the game less fun for people who aren't power-gaming ******s. I'd hate the see the game as a whole made less fun for 95% of players to accomodate a couple of jerks who just don't get what it's supposed to be about.

I suggest trying Warmachine if you don't care about modelling and fluff and just want a tight rules system for tournament play.


The only reason to play Warhammer is to have fun. I'm a simulationist player - I like to command the force, come up with tactics and I have fun win or lose. Winning a game with toy soldiers means absolutely nothing....

"The only objective in real war is to win, not to have fun. This is war."

Also, real war is not the same thing as a friendly game of Warhammer. I really hope you get drafted so you can see the difference for yourself.

mageith
29-01-2006, 19:25
*************: I would welcome a much longer rulebook, with lots of text that forbids all the clipping ....
Nice thought. Clipping is a trade off between allowing units to move further than their Mv rate and maximizing frontage. One of the other has to go. Try and write a rule that covers this. I'd be interested to read it.

...and overguessing. Just a bit more to read, thats all. And if it helps prevent the inevitable arguements...

Player A:"that unit was only 6 inches away, and you guessed 60. Overguessing scumbag".

Player B: "Prove that I overguessed. You cant".

I think that a longer rulebook that stops this kind of thing would be great.

Any guess weapon, as we all know is, well, uses a guess. In order to get rid of overguessing, we'd have to change how guess weapons are fired. Another option is to set a limit, say 10% or so. Again it's a trade off. Personally I wouldn't mind getting rid of guess weapons but I think that's a minority opinion.


And soportsmanship isnt a part of the game. It doesnt say as part of the main rules that you HAVE to be sportsmanlike, it just says that you SHOULD be sportmanlike. And sportmanship varies from person to person.

Ouch! Technically you are correct.


And it is that designers fault for not stopping people from acting like a tit. They should put in clear, concise rules, which are not open to exploitation.
Take your best shot. The two areas you identified are indicated as "evil" and "not nice" respectively. See if you can write a rule that prevents these abuses. Remember it has to be both "clear" and "concise".

....


The only fun IS winning. Its why we play the game. The only objective in real war is to win, not to have fun. This is war. Hence, the only objective is to win.
Unfortunately lots of folks have this attitude. But not all folks do and so you can't actually and factually say "The only fun IS winning. Its why we play the game." You are projecting your viewpoint on others. I've had plenty of fun losing (and that's a good thing too.). If the only fun was winning, there wouldn't be many players left. :)

And, of course, we are not fighting a real war, but playing.

Mage Ith

Keller
29-01-2006, 19:31
Please, keep your responses in this thread limited to development ideas. If you want to argue game styles and the correct way to play, please go to another thread. I suggest 'Thoughts about Empire"; its already been ruined.

Sayu
29-01-2006, 19:36
"Personally I wouldn't mind getting rid of guess weapons but I think that's a minority opinion. "

Back on topic, is this likely to happen?

In 40K guess weapons were eliminated and now just scatter a bit more than they used to. This would be an easy change to make (roll 2d6, take the higher when scattering the mortar) and it would be consistent with the changes made to 40K.

Any mention of this in the 7th ed, rumours we have so far? It would certainly change every Empire artillery weapon except the Hellblaster.

Razhem
29-01-2006, 19:42
Player A:"that unit was only 6 inches away, and you guessed 60. Overguessing scumbag".

Player B: "Prove that I overguessed. You cant".

He canīt prove it, but he can break your face. You should have a happy stroll over at the worst oponent thread, thereīs happy little stories like this that seem to have ended in violence, mainly caused by idiots like you


I think that a longer rulebook that stops this kind of thing would be great.

And soportsmanship isnt a part of the game. It doesnt say as part of the main rules that you HAVE to be sportsmanlike, it just says that you SHOULD be sportmanlike. And sportmanship varies from person to person.

"and all the sick bastards that have no interest in moral shall be forced to be sportmanlike or have an autoloss" seems to me youīd be outta the game in that case


Dwarves do not "kick the enemies ass". They each have 1 strength 3 attack, the same as my handgunners. The only difference is they are leadership 9, so they hold better when the enemy gets there. BUT they dont get a second shooting phase (magic), they dont get the Steam Tank, they get that piece of **** called an Organ Gun instead of a Helblaster, they dont have Knights. Now, the Empires bad leadership is not so much of a problem. We have Knights and a Steam Tank to charge in when the remains of the enemy get close, so we can finish them off. In quite alot of my games, my Handgunners never see combat. When the enemy are about to charge my Handgunners, I charge them with my Steam Tank/Knights, and really finish them off.

And the amount an Empire gunline can kill compared to a Dwarf gunline is quite a significant difference, given average dice rolls. Our Handgunners are much more point effective, our Cannons are better, out magic is (obviously) better, out Volley Gun is better than the Organ gun..

Did you know thunderers can have armour and shield? Iīve faced units that the last turn would reform into ranks, fight me and see me off, and what you invert in your tank and magic, he uses in clansmen with heavy armour and iron breakers, along with fighty caracters and runemasters for defense, caracters that tend to kick some serious ass in their units. Yes, slappy, the empire way causes more damage, but is less forgiving, you screw up, your dead, and donīt expect me to believe that you can contain a horde with a tank and a 5 man cavalry unit


And if you know Empire players that do well without a line of guns and a metal brick, good for them. Ill continue to use my line of guns and metal brick, confident it gives me an advantage over every other army out there.

Except bretonians:evilgrin:
But o wait, slappy the ever bithching calls them cheese cause it canīt beat them with ease, or all cavalry magic counsil elves, or dark rider dark elf hell, or the goblin horde of doom, or the goblin wolf pack, or the tzench flying circus, or sneaky wood elves, or skink hell armada and friends, or necromantic horde with mass wolves, or horde skaven, or SAD skaven, or anything in general that might give you a hard time for your hard earned dice rolling enjoyment



The only fun IS winning. Its why we play the game. The only objective in real war is to win, not to have fun. This is war. Hence, the only objective is to win.
Slappy, you disgust me, youīve made your point in this thread, if you wanna keep talking about the wonders of the gunline and pissing on most empire players opinions on tactics, create a new thread for that porpuose in the tactics section

Sorry to the rest for going so off topic

Going back...
Heavy armour infantry is something I just donīt finish seeing in the empire infantry,one thing is knights on foot, but averege joes with heavy? seems too much of a contrast, and the idea a read earlier of the 2 engineers per hero slot, sounds good to me, seems like a nice solution in part for the nobody cares for engineers thing

EDIT: sorry Keller, read your post after this

Keller
29-01-2006, 19:44
"Personally I wouldn't mind getting rid of guess weapons but I think that's a minority opinion. "

Back on topic, is this likely to happen?

In 40K guess weapons were eliminated and now just scatter a bit more than they used to. This would be an easy change to make (roll 2d6, take the higher when scattering the mortar) and it would be consistent with the changes made to 40K.

Any mention of this in the 7th ed, rumours we have so far? It would certainly change every Empire artillery weapon except the Hellblaster.

I like my guess weapons. They allow for greater accuracy than BS weapons, as long as the player is skilled at them. I know I can almost always land my mortars onto units. Its got a 1/3 chance of landing exactly where I call, and with Engineers, which I often take, chances of landing in the center of the unit are pretty good.

Still, unfortunately some people abuse guess weaponry, and as long as they rely on the player, it can, and will be abused.

Given the fact that I don't really get into competative gaming, I would rather keep the guess-weapons, and ignore those who abuse them for their own gain.

Pokpoko
29-01-2006, 19:50
i think this thread is already hijacked true and well.
back to the offtopic point-
a)obviously mr.Gunline never did get round to read the new dwarves book.they now do have a magic phase(or rather a magic warmachine),wich cant be dispelled,and on 4+ causes 2d6 S4 hits on d3 units on table.oh,and the dwarven warmahines right now put any imperial machine to shame(24" organ gun with rerolls of art. dice,rerolls of misfires etc).and dwarf gunline is beter than imperial if you actually use some thought, and make full use of the "change ranks" order-16 handgunners, in two ranks of 8, and when enemy moves into charge range(granted, there shouldn't be orrible lot of him left when properly played-only skaven will pose problems, but skaven will pose problems to any gunline)you add 2 ranks.voila, now you have a very nice hth regiment,with FCG and shields it gives you 4+save in hth, and basic CR of 4+, without mentioning the stand and shoot even.but it does require a bit more than line'em up and roll dice I guess.
b)besides, you do relise that when playing gunline you actually give enemy free VP's by not caliming the "capture the flag" VP's?because,you know, it must be done in hth.

Dr Death
29-01-2006, 20:04
The only fun IS winning. Its why we play the game. The only objective in real war is to win, not to have fun. This is war. Hence, the only objective is to win.

Dear Lord i thought we had a bit of a dillusional here but i didnt think it was this bad. The above is the ultimate and final call before a power gamer gets the men in white coats called on him. I dont know about the rest of you but i get a little offended basically being called a lying b@astard everytime a power gamer comes along just because i dont play to win. You havnt been reading Ayn Rand as well have you *************?:rolleyes:


And soportsmanship isnt a part of the game. It doesnt say as part of the main rules that you HAVE to be sportsmanlike, it just says that you SHOULD be sportmanlike. And sportmanship varies from person to person.


.....:rolleyes:


And it is that designers fault for not stopping people from acting like a tit.

I take it you've never heard of being responsible for your own actions have you?


Ill continue to use my line of guns and metal brick, confident it gives me an advantage over every other army out there.

Yes, one that is completely neglegent considering nobody else is playing to your deluded house code. As soon as one person beats you your metal brick and gunline wont look quite so smug and you'll be shown as no paragon of gaming wonderment, a bold adventurer pushing the boundries of the game but the rather sad powergaming munchkin out to proove some pointless self gratification.

I could go on and systematically counter every element of your philosophy, because for someone of unbridaled power and tactical acumen on the battlefeild you dont quite spot the wide open holes in your reasoning. But instead i will follow Kellers closing sentiment and just leave you to abuse the rules as you will, im just glad i dont have to play you, because i think someone would end up hurt. (Probably me attatching my nipples to eletrodes to drown out the torture of listening to your ream of drivel.)

Dr Death

ROCKY
29-01-2006, 20:06
How about Gw makes some New type of empire units, like chain and ballers, or even heavily armored Greatr axes or something. I personally would like to see large imperial guys doing the Goblin Fanatic part!

Galadrin
29-01-2006, 20:11
@Gunline, I almost understand you using the gunline you do against Khorne Chosen Knights. I've done a lot of number crunching to find that they are a huge multiple more valuable than their actual point cost. Still, I honestly urge you to quit playing with that player, go find people that play tame armies and try out a balanced game just once, because I can assure you, the Gunline & Knight/Steamtank Helblaster Extravaganza is not balanced. Even if you only do find fun in winning, there certainly can be no fun in winning when you simply have a broken army and are relying on statistics to pull you through.

About the overguessing, a simple house rule easily neuters that option. All you have to do is add "the cannon's attack is aimed at the very center of the nominated target". That way, you will have a one in a million chance of lining it up with some lone hero. If you are shooting at skirmishers, just determine the middle as between the two most extreme models. Simple and effective.

What I forgot to put in my last post, is that I think it would be pretty interesting to see a little stronger religious intonation. Not so much for a new unit, but I would like to see maybe a Witch Hunter Hero (even if it could not be a General). I'd also like to see something to represent the different states and how they wage war (although this has already been mentioned).


EDIT: Alternatively, you could just say that if the shot is guessed over the target and goes beyond a certain range (maybe 2x the range to the front of the target), then the shot simply goes wide and is ignored. Or you could use both rules, as overguess sniping is certainly not in the spirit of the game (neither being realistic, fair or enjoyable).

gunlinetastic
29-01-2006, 20:27
Err, no. Tighter rules (in play and composition) reduce the flexibility to make themed lists and come up with original scenarios and twists to keep things innovative and interesting, and it makes the game less fun for people who aren't power-gaming ******s. I'd hate the see the game as a whole made less fun for 95% of players to accomodate a couple of jerks who just don't get what it's supposed to be about

How would tightening up the rules stop you from fielding a themed list?

And coming up with original scenarios is heresy! Make do with the ones in the rulebook!

And its more than a couple of players. Id say at least 40 percent of people powergame, and in our group its around 80 percent. The only reason it aint 100 percent is cos there is this Ogre Kingdoms player who reckons we should all play to have fun and use balanced lists, and the Bret scumbag who goes on about having fun as well. Filthy heretics!



I suggest trying Warmachine if you don't care about modelling and fluff and just want a tight rules system for tournament play.


Never played it, but from what I heard its crap. It doesnt have loads of people playing it like warhammer.




The only reason to play Warhammer is to have fun. I'm a simulationist player - I like to command the force, come up with tactics and I have fun win or lose. Winning a game with toy soldiers means absolutely nothing....
[/QUOTE

Are you telling me when you play a game, you dont play to win? So you dont try to win?

I dont like coming up with tactics. It slows the game down. And dont tell me you dont have more fun when you win...

Winning a game of toy soldiers proves that you are the superior human! Only joking, but everyone should be playing to win. Its no fun losing. Winning is the only way to have fun.

[QUOTE]
Also, real war is not the same thing as a friendly game of Warhammer. I really hope you get drafted so you can see the difference for yourself.

Of course its not the same thing, as real people are not actually dieing. But its the same idea- in a real war you try and win, knowing you will die if you dont. In warhammer, you play to win, as its no fun to lose.



Nice thought. Clipping is a trade off between allowing units to move further than their Mv rate and maximizing frontage. One of the other has to go. Try and write a rule that covers this. I'd be interested to read it.

I would get rid of the moving further than your movement rate idea. Because that section in the back of the book causes no end of problems, as idiots want to play it like the back of the book, and normal people want to clip. So, you have to maximise your own attacks as much as possible, but cannot move more than your movement rate to do so. If that results in a unit of swordsmen and a unit of goblins in combat, but only one goblin and one swordsman are fighting each other because the goblins were 7.9 inches away, so be it. Anyone that wants to slide..well, tough luck.

So, this idea would stop all that rediculous sliding of units which is quite clearly against the rules. It would mean you had to maximise your frontage as much as your movement rate will allow, so lots of times you will get a normal combat. You would only have to maximise the number of your attacks, and not your enemies attacks, but thats the same as the current rule anyway.



Any guess weapon, as we all know is, well, uses a guess. In order to get rid of overguessing, we'd have to change how guess weapons are fired. Another option is to set a limit, say 10% or so. Again it's a trade off. Personally I wouldn't mind getting rid of guess weapons but I think that's a minority opinion.


How about "if you miss your intended target the shot is wasted". So if a unit of warhounds is in front of my Cannon, and a Hellcannon is 50 inches behind them, you cant guess 42 inches at the warhounds, line it up to hit the Hellcannon, and destroy it (true story). But, "if you do hit your original target, then you can cause wounds on other units as normal".

So, this would mean that lots of infantry unit, all behind each other, would all get hit with a decent bounce, as is good and proper. A High Elf mage lingering 1 inch behind a spearman unit would get hit as long as the cannonball hit the spearmen in front of him, as is right, he shouldnt be that close to a unit that has a cannonball coming through it anyway.

What it would stop though, is stupid overguesses where the enemy is quite clearly around 10 inches away, to hit units on the opposite side of the board.



And, of course, we are not fighting a real war, but playing.

This is real war! A war against all the gits that complain about anything! A war against the people who want to get rid of the Steam Tank! A war against people that want to see the Empire made weaker! Kill them all! :D


He canīt prove it, but he can break your face. You should have a happy stroll over at the worst oponent thread, thereīs happy little stories like this that seem to have ended in violence, mainly caused by idiots like you


Where is this thread, it would be a great read. And while the Warhammer rulebook does not forbid such action, the basic law of the land does im afraid, so thats ILLEGAL.


"and all the sick bastards that have no interest in moral shall be forced to be sportmanlike or have an autoloss" seems to me youīd be outta the game in that case

However, you cant define sportsmanship. You cant define morals either. If I can say that I thought I was sportsmanlike with a straight face after the game, even though I overguessed etc..there is nothing you can do, even if such a rule was put in place.


Did you know thunderers can have armour and shield? Iīve faced units that the last turn would reform into ranks, fight me and see me off, and what you invert in your tank and magic, he uses in clansmen with heavy armour and iron breakers, along with fighty caracters and runemasters for defense, caracters that tend to kick some serious ass in their units. Yes, slappy, the empire way causes more damage, but is less forgiving, you screw up, your dead, and donīt expect me to believe that you can contain a horde with a tank and a 5 man cavalry unit

Yep, give em shields, makes em even more expensive. 15 points each I believe! :eek: . And many players have this idea, but to reform you lose the short ranged shot, which is where you cause the most damage. Trust me, the temptation to have all thoise lovely short range shots, plus more stand and shoot shots will be to overpowering.

I cant believe this is even a discussion. The Empire gunline is clearly superior to the Dwarf one. WE have magic, tanks, cavalry, better warmachines...yuo have leadership 9, and pay for combat stats even though your tactic is to shoot! Thats why handgunners rule- they only pay points for their shooting ability, nothing else.

And you can easily hold up a horde with a tank and a 5 man cavalry unit. Smash the tank at one of their regiments, it doesnt matter if it holds or breaks. All the units around it are marchblocked, which is going to be quite alot of them. All of them are taking terror checks. All of them are taking panic checks if the unit breaks. Use the cavalry to run them down if they break, causing more panic...it is very easily done. Horde troops wont be able to scratch the Steam Tank.


Except bretonians
But o wait, slappy the ever bithching calls them cheese cause it canīt beat them with ease, or all cavalry magic counsil elves, or dark rider dark elf hell, or the goblin horde of doom, or the goblin wolf pack, or the tzench flying circus, or sneaky wood elves, or skink hell armada and friends, or necromantic horde with mass wolves, or horde skaven, or SAD skaven, or anything in general that might give you a hard time for your hard earned dice rolling enjoyment


I dont have a problem with all cav counsil Elves, Dark rider dark elves, tzenntchh flying circus, goblin armies of doom, wqood elves, skinks, necro summoning hordes or horde skaven. But Brets are cheese incarnate. They need to be toned down ALOT in their revision (which probably wont be for some time:cries: ).

And yes, if its not beaten easily, its cheese! :D


Slappy, you disgust me, youīve made your point in this thread, if you wanna keep talking about the wonders of the gunline and pissing on most empire players opinions on tactics, create a new thread for that porpuose in the tactics section

Hey, its you lot defending Pistoliers and wanting to get rid of the Steam Tank that has compelled me to reply to this thread and start this.

gunlinetastic
29-01-2006, 20:39
I take it you've never heard of being responsible for your own actions have you?


If the designers made rules up to stop this, I wouldnt be doing it. Its their fault.



Yes, one that is completely neglegent considering nobody else is playing to your deluded house code. As soon as one person beats you your metal brick and gunline wont look quite so smug and you'll be shown as no paragon of gaming wonderment, a bold adventurer pushing the boundries of the game but the rather sad powergaming munchkin out to proove some pointless self gratification.

I could go on and systematically counter every element of your philosophy, because for someone of unbridaled power and tactical acumen on the battlefeild you dont quite spot the wide open holes in your reasoning. But instead i will follow Kellers closing sentiment and just leave you to abuse the rules as you will, im just glad i dont have to play you, because i think someone would end up hurt. (Probably me attatching my nipples to eletrodes to drown out the torture of listening to your ream of drivel.)

?? Why as soon as one person beats me I wont look quite so smug. I never did claim to have an unbeatne record. I was beaten by a Bret player 3 weeks ago. But it was the first time I had been beaten in quite a while, and I have not been beaten since. But I never said "this army is invincable".



a)obviously mr.Gunline never did get round to read the new dwarves book.they now do have a magic phase(or rather a magic warmachine),wich cant be dispelled,and on 4+ causes 2d6 S4 hits on d3 units on table.oh,and the dwarven warmahines right now put any imperial machine to shame(24" organ gun with rerolls of art. dice,rerolls of misfires etc).and dwarf gunline is beter than imperial if you actually use some thought, and make full use of the "change ranks" order-16 handgunners, in two ranks of 8, and when enemy moves into charge range(granted, there shouldn't be orrible lot of him left when properly played-only skaven will pose problems, but skaven will pose problems to any gunline)you add 2 ranks.voila, now you have a very nice hth regiment,with FCG and shields it gives you 4+save in hth, and basic CR of 4+, without mentioning the stand and shoot even.but it does require a bit more than line'em up and roll dice I guess.
b)besides, you do relise that when playing gunline you actually give enemy free VP's by not caliming the "capture the flag" VP's?because,you know, it must be done in hth.

They dont have a magic phase, they have a shooting phase.

Yea, it does 2d6 strength 4 hits to d3 units IF you are brave and try and roll 4+. If not, there is a chance it miught explode or not work the next turn. And d3 units might be 1 unit, hence no advantage apart from an extra d6 damage.

And you will want that short ranged shot. I guarantee it.

I do capture the flags sometimes. Normally, I weaken each unit to about 6 models, then charge them with my tank and 5 man cav unit to finish them off. Or, if turn limit is nearing the end, I just shoot them apart. :D


@Gunline, I almost understand you using the gunline you do against Khorne Chosen Knights. I've done a lot of number crunching to find that they are a huge multiple more valuable than their actual point cost. Still, I honestly urge you to quit playing with that player, go find people that play tame armies and try out a balanced game just once, because I can assure you, the Gunline & Knight/Steamtank Helblaster Extravaganza is not balanced. Even if you only do find fun in winning, there certainly can be no fun in winning when you simply have a broken army and are relying on statistics to pull you through.

Balanced armies dont exist round here im afraid...

And its fun to win, when ive beaten HIS dicefest of an army with my dicefest of an army.

If I ever meet someone with a balanced list, I will be sure to give it a try. Somehow though, I doubt I will meet anyone with a balanced list.



About the overguessing, a simple house rule easily neuters that option. All you have to do is add "the cannon's attack is aimed at the very center of the nominated target". That way, you will have a one in a million chance of lining it up with some lone hero. If you are shooting at skirmishers, just determine the middle as between the two most extreme models. Simple and effective.


I dont want to do that. It would make my Cannons weaker. Until the designers do something about it, ill happily overguess and chaarcter snipe.

Lafeel Abriel
29-01-2006, 20:50
Think some helpfull mod should split those off topic comments out of the thread, as they have no place in a talk about what should be done to change the Empire.

As for the idea earlier of having dismounted knights as a option..I guess it's sort of doable, and there definetly is a precedence (Reiksguard foot, in the previos army book), but even then, and with a definete historical point there as well, I am not so sure..Seem a bit over specialized to me, no offense..

Wintermute
29-01-2006, 20:59
*************

This thread is intended to discuss the future of the Empire army, it is not for you ( or anyone esle) to discuss other matters.

Please keep this thread on topic.

Wintermute
Forums Moderator

Razhem
29-01-2006, 21:12
More than overspecialiced, It would seem redundent using foot cav, mostly cause greatswords alfready exist, although if people wan more and more importantly, diferently equiped heavy infantry, itīs how I best see it in fluff-game terms, only thing I donīt seem to warm up mucho to is the idea of empier ironbreakers, but with a correct restriction it wouldnīt be the end of the world. And I prefer that guessing still exist, when I played against empire I was always amazed by the eye distance coordination that some people had, itīs a nice caracteristic and I frankly think itīs cool (those deadeye mortars will always haunt me:cries: )

Has for slappy, just so to respect the forum rules, if you wanna keep at it, make a new thread, call it gunline empire or something in the tactics section, and the worst oponent thing is in general 40k

ROCKY
29-01-2006, 21:19
I would so love for an empire army to have heavy frontliners as a core, but I guess we are stuck with knights.

Razhem
29-01-2006, 21:35
Sorry RKATTAN, thatīs a dwarf thing:D ,let the grumpy old midgets keep it

ROCKY
29-01-2006, 21:38
Lol, Why let the midgets have al the fun.

Razhem
29-01-2006, 21:46
Cuz they might put an axe on your head:evilgrin:
itīs just the thought that only dwarfs get basic heavies and for the rest itīs elite, seems good to me, gives the midgets more personal flair (even more since now they have to take it anyway)

ROCKY
29-01-2006, 21:51
I will not be bested by any midget!!!!!Blood for the bloood God!!!!
PS. We need better handgunners with Bs5.

Razhem
29-01-2006, 21:57
:cheese: :cheese:
is what they would scream, and so would I, unless they where priced high elf style:angel:
Oh, and you already have them, theyīre called engineers:evilgrin:

ROCKY
29-01-2006, 22:00
I meant core choices. and i hope that they would remain 8 points. plus I still recommend chain and ballers! Blood for lassie...err khorne!

Sandlemad
29-01-2006, 22:07
There was a thought somewhere around here about taking greatswords and then being able to upgrade them to:

1. Reiksguard foot knights if you already have reiksguard in your army.
2. Teutogen guard if you already have white wolf knights in your army.

Visually, it would be nice to theme the army a bit.

Also, I would really love to face a balanced, simple steam-tank. The model, hell, the concept is just so cool that I like seeing them around.
But... it's not even the balance issues that I mind, it's the complexity.

It's fun when the game gains a narrative thanks to an uber-unit, say, 'the testing of the iron monster' or 'destroy the bloodthirster', but when these games get so bogged down with the rules, it's just not cool.

Keller
29-01-2006, 22:13
I would so love for an empire army to have heavy frontliners as a core, but I guess we are stuck with knights.

The whole flavor of the Empire is for the light, highly drilled infantry, and I love it! Thats probably why I rarely field any knights, though pistoliers are becoming common in my armies these days.

Back on topic. I wouldn't mind seeing some heavier infantry thrown into the list, though I would leave them as Special, if not Rare. I like Greatswordsmen, with their 4+ armor save and Stubborn rule, but I am not a fan of great weapons, over all anyway. I would like to see them renamed to be a more general High Guard or something, and give them weapon options. Halberds, Great Weapons, possibly shields, though a 2+ save foot infantry is NOT something the Empire needs, by any measure. I'd even go for spears or pikes on them, though as it stands, Pikes are a bit out of character.

Even a new unit, one that isn't Stubborn, but still had access to the 'elite' armory would be nice, though I can't say I would use it much.

Keller
29-01-2006, 22:16
There was a thought somewhere around here about taking greatswords and then being able to upgrade them to:

1. Reiksguard foot knights if you already have reiksguard in your army.
2. Teutogen guard if you already have white wolf knights in your army.

That was in one of my earlier posts. :p Though, I didn't mention having the Knights as a requirement, so you could have the flair of differant infantry if you are like me, and don't use many (any) knights.

TK421
29-01-2006, 22:34
8. Make the Mortar St 4.

Ok, ew. Just plain ew.

Have you ever been on the receiving end of a dead on Mortar shot? Especially using something like Elves?

I'd like to at least have some of my unit left after one shot thank you very much, especially from a machine that costs less then the average chariot.

Sayu
29-01-2006, 22:39
Actually having the special rules for the Reiksguard, Knights Panther, etc. in the list wouldn't be too bad. I know they were introduced in unofficial rules.

I'd avoid having Knights as required though. The Reiksguard on Foot could easily go to war without their mounted brethren (if they were fighting Skaven in a swamp for instance).

I agree that 2+ save infantry doesn't fit Empire - that's the realm of Chaos Warriors.

ROCKY
29-01-2006, 22:42
No changes to the mortar! but keller this is an empire army which means we need more variation. who doesn't like chain and ballers?(especially if they have 4+armor save and the fanatic special rules).

ROCKY
29-01-2006, 22:58
You know what the empire could use.... Snipers! basically regular handgunners with BS4 and the killing blow ability and 36' range! Awesome!

samw
29-01-2006, 23:17
Um, hochland log rifles?

Galadrin
29-01-2006, 23:55
Ow, that would hurt. A high powered log.

I think if we see the Pikes in the main rulebook when it comes out this year, we will see Pikes in the Empire book that follows later.

jerrytown
30-01-2006, 00:14
You know what the empire could use.... Snipers! basically regular handgunners with BS4 and the killing blow ability and 36' range! Awesome!

hum...
i don't know to much about this, i think it might be a little cost prohibitive.
you do have to pay for that BS 4, and killing blow on a ranged attack would be very expensive. i think.

also, we seem to have a lot of complains about SAD armies, imagine what would happen if this were to come out :rolleyes: LOL

i'd like to see something along the lines of the empirium codex, something like combat doctrines to give a special touch to the army.
also, something along the lines of like 4 to 5 lord choice, all of which would allow for different army compositions, something like a religious fanatic army lead by an iquisitor, an army lead by a noble, etc...


jerrytown

mageith
30-01-2006, 00:39
I think if we see the Pikes in the main rulebook when it comes out this year, we will see Pikes in the Empire book that follows later.
I don't think we'll see Pikes either place. I wouldn't mind seeing half pikes though, that is give spears the same rules as pikes but with only two ranks instead of four.

There's a reason Pikes haven't migrated from Tilea. They are counter to one of the main brainstorms of WFB: That charging is an advantage. I real life, the charging force was bigger than the charged force. In WFB, we play with equal armies and only suicidal armies would charge under realistic rules. Charge bonuses keep the game moving. Even my suggestion on spears might be too strong and upset the delicate balance.

All the Empire needs is a few tweaks for fluff reasons: mostly centering around the Engineers, Priests (Which have already been tried in the trial armies), Inner Circle Knights and the Steam Tank. These are the often repeated complaints/whines with this army. I wouldn't mind seeing the militia become skirmishers as long as they didn't get much stronger.

Mage Ith

Galadrin
30-01-2006, 01:41
You really think so? Pikes will give you twice the amount of wounds as a unit of Spearmen (ideally), but are 10 (or so) point models that are shot away as easily as Elves. Plus, the ability to cause 3-4 unsaved wounds a turn is comparable to many other infantry, such as the new Wood Elf Eternal Guard or the High Elf Spearmen. If they can have that, so can we! Maybe the auto-strike first thing would have to be modified, but other than that I don't find them too over-powered.

Also Inner Circle Knights are often the target of criticism, but S4 for 3 points seems balanced for me. Regular or Inner Circle almost always wound on 2+ on the charge, so the difference is really found in the second round of combat and in another point of armour reduction.

mageith
30-01-2006, 02:06
You really think so? Pikes will give you twice the amount of wounds as a unit of Spearmen (ideally),

Actually much better than that when charged. Strength improvement, first strike improvement and armor save improvement. With two ranks of Pike (Half Pike), it's likely you kill a knight. (1.2 vs normal knights with heavy armor) And that is probably enough to cause hesitation.



Maybe the auto-strike first thing would have to be modified, but other than that I don't find them too over-powered.

For 24 points more a column, the pikes get 4 first strike, +1 St, AS removing attacks and full rank bonus.
For 8 more points a column, half pikes would get 2 first strike, +1 Str, AS removing attacks and full rank bonus. So you are right, this would make spears a better deal than pikes. So assuming Pikes are a good deal, spears would be too good. However, as a long term player of DoW generic pikes, I'm not sure Pikes are as good a deal as folks think, but still removing the auto first strike would make them about equal deals for the cost and probably fits in more with 'realism', for what that's worth.

As an aside, I see the +1 Strength a function of setting the pikes/spears into the ground and the bonus s/b Strength 4 instead of +1 but that's only important if the half pike/pike rule is in the BRB and applies to Lizardmen or other St 4 spear users.



Also Inner Circle Knights are often the target of criticism, but S4 for 3 points seems balanced for me. Regular or Inner Circle almost always wound on 2+ on the charge, so the difference is really found in the second round of combat and in another point of armour reduction.
I'm not saying they are unbalanced. It just doesn't feel right that there's an Inner Circle without an outer circle. I think that's the source of the complaint.

Ith

Grand Warlord
30-01-2006, 03:02
How about 1 unit of spearmen could be upgraded to pikemen (or half-pikemen)? Something like that?

Sayu
30-01-2006, 05:13
Nah, I wouldn't want to see a big proliferation of pikes in the game. Currently they're a rare and specialized weapon. I think spear suit Empire fine and fit better with the other options (swords or Halberds).

Skimishing Free Company is an option - but I would make sure it's not mandatory. Irregular themed armies need them to have some rank bonuses to be even marginally effective.

WiCkEdRock
30-01-2006, 08:58
About the overguessing, a simple house rule easily neuters that option. All you have to do is add "the cannon's attack is aimed at the very center of the nominated target". That way, you will have a one in a million chance of lining it up with some lone hero. If you are shooting at skirmishers, just determine the middle as between the two most extreme models. Simple and effective.

This is a really good rule, worthy of the Big Red. You'll still be able to shoot single characters, something you should IMO have the freedom to do, but not when they are behind a unit. If the character happens to stand in line with the cannon shot, well.. tough dung.


How about "if you miss your intended target the shot is wasted". So if a unit of warhounds is in front of my Cannon, and a Hellcannon is 50 inches behind them, you cant guess 42 inches at the warhounds, line it up to hit the Hellcannon, and destroy it (true story). But, "if you do hit your original target, then you can cause wounds on other units as normal".

Quite good, but it would take away the randomness of that warmachine, which I am sure is enjoyed.


And coming up with original scenarios is heresy! Make do with the ones in the rulebook!

I don't see anything wrong in home made scenarios. I've been to a tournament with 3 home made scenarios and 3 official ones. The only one I didn't like was an official scenario (Think it was meeting engagement..), the scenarios Pertinax made rewarded variety in the armies.
As long as they are tested properly before being put into an event.

foehammer888
30-01-2006, 11:59
If they are going to upgrade engineers, I don't want a copy of the dwarf ones. The upgrades should show the difference between dwarf and humans. By and large, dwarf engineers make their machines more reliable. They allow misfire re-rolls, artillery dice rerolls, or better chances to hit. This makes sense, as it fits the dwarf personna of sturdiness, reliability, and craftsmanship.

Human engineers, on the other hand, should be more liberal and willing to take risks. Their abilities should be able to drastically improve the abilities of empire artillery, but with an associated drastic increase in risk. For example, Having a master engineer could add D3 strength to a mortar attack, or allow it to cause multiple wounds, but would drastically increase the chance of misfires, as well as their negative effects.

Flaggelants - link them to the number of warrior priests akin to slayers

Halberdiers - as mentioned by others, this should be a core rules fix with associated point adjustments in the various army lists. Hell, making them really cheap in army lists might just be enough.

Greatswords - 0-1 +1 per elector count, or perhaps make them like hammerers, have no restriction but require an elector count to take full advantage of their abilities.

Inner circle knights - maybe go the longbeards route, requiring a normal unit of knights for each unit of inner circle (perhaps going so far as requiring the normal knight unit to be of at least equal size, to avoid 10 strong innner circle knights and a 5 strong unit of normal knights). Having a grand master would allow you to take one more unit of inner circle than normal, but if taken they must accompany the grand master.

As for magic items, take another page from the dwarf revisions. They didn't add many super-powerful magic runes/items, but what they did add was tons of relatively cheap but useful runes, in particular standards and talismans. These tend to allow for new tactics without simply creating uber-combat characters.

I expect the empire revisions to be very similar to the dwarf ones. In all, the empire list is pretty good and effective. What it needs is a few adjustments to units and some flavor. Remember, when arguing unit selections and 0-1 limitations, the rules for warhammer are designed for 1k-5k games, with 1-3k being most common. Arguing that you can only take 1 greatswords unit in a 20k game isn't really viable.

Foehammer

ROCKY
30-01-2006, 17:25
What we need is better shooting. Make the handgunners aroun 12 pionts as long as they have repeater handguns. Would anyone want to see a fanatic type character in the Empire? Also we need a better arcane and enchanted items list! we want more power dice less crap! plus we want merlin!

Galadrin
30-01-2006, 18:50
I dunno, there have been a lot of requests for everything, and if they all got fulfilled, then the Empire would just be a mix of every army. The Empire should have a theme with clear strengths and weaknesses, which they have more or less accomplished. Any changes should also fit in that theme and not break the mold too much, at least for in-game effects.

Again with pikes, I really think GW should do this. It fits in Empire fluff greatly (half pikes are not mentioned at all, if I recall) and they won't be overpowered or balance-upsetting with a few rule changes (which they could easily implement in the basic 7th Edition rulebook). I think "Fight in 4 ranks, unless an enemy is on the flank or rank" is enough (removing the auto-strike first and the +1 Strength against charging cavalry), reducing the point cost down to about 3 points per pike. This way you would get a 6 point pikemen, or 7 with light armour, or 8 with heavy armour. On the same note, give Halberdiers and Pikemen the option for heavy armour, since for 2 points it is very much not overpowered. The current halberdier option for a shield is sort of pointless and a 6+ save from light armour alone is not worth taking.

To make a nice distinction, Halberdiers and Pikemen can be made some sort of 'royal elite' troop, so rely on a 1 to 1 ratio of other troops (maybe making Halberdiers a tiny bit better due to the fact that they are the Count's favorite footsoldiers, or maybe just Armour Piercing in their attack?). A 1 to 1 relation would also keep armies from having too many units of pikemen, if people are honestly worried about that.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
30-01-2006, 19:40
Actually if you browse through the 4th ed Empire book, look at the Hochland halberdier and you will see a caption that states that because the halberd requires two hands, this soldier has been equipped with a heavier set of armor. Giving halberdiers heavy armor would not be breaking the fluff and it would make more sense. Still, halberds are pants as a weapon, or they are certainly not worth the extra 2 points one might pay. Then again, I think they're annoying as they cut through my T4 ladz with ease.

foehammer888
30-01-2006, 20:27
Still, halberds are pants as a weapon, or they are certainly not worth the extra 2 points one might pay. Then again, I think they're annoying as they cut through my T4 ladz with ease.The problems with the halberd are many. The first deals with weapon creep. In the recent edition, Infantry with hand weapons were given an armor save bonus when using a shield, to make hand weapons more attractive. This equalized the option out with many other types of weapons, as they were the most defensive. Spears provide more attacks, but at slightly less protection, and great weapons were alot more hitting power with a significant drop in protection. However, in the mix, halberds were left in the dust. They have the same defensive penalties as great weapons, but without the same increase in hitting power.

This problem is compounded by the fact that halberds are often the weapon of choice of low strenght, low initiative troops. Halberds are beneficial when a model already has above average strength and decent initiative, as the model still gets a high strength attack (possibly 5+) but can still use its above average initiative to hit before the opponent, unlike a great weapon. Armor piercing might help, another option might be giving halberd-armed models +1AS in close combat (represents blocking with the weapon haft, which wouldn't be useful against ranged attacks. Even with light armor, halberdiers would have a 5+AS in close combat, on par with spears).

It's the problem with halberds that makes me reluctant to give the empire pikes. Suddenly, halberds will be even more outclassed, and spearmen and even swordsmen might be no longer worth their points. Perhaps pikemen could be like big-uns or longbeards, a 1for1 upgrade spearmen. Something that makes many units possible, but with significant sacrifices.

Foehammer

Galadrin
30-01-2006, 21:33
With all of this talk, I decided to write out a list made from all of my ideas. It is sort of mishmash, so just take on what you like. Assume it is exactly like the current Empire list if a unit is not mentioned.


Heroes
Engineers - Along with a better formulated engineer bonus, these now have BS 5. Some additional rules might be 2 for 1 Hero slot, or that each Engineer allows you to take a Cannon/Mortar as a Rare slot. Also, the Engineer can have a new mundane item, a telescopic sight that allows you to take two guesses for each guessed range attempt he makes (+20 points).

Core
Halberdiers - As a general 7th Edition Rule, Halberds could have armour piercing, showing how effective they were against cavalry and heavily armoured troops. Halberdiers would also get the Royal Guard rule, that states that they can be Parent units, but not Detachments (as well as being restricted to 1 for each unit of normal State Troops, and maybe having the option to take a 25pt magic banner). They also get a Heavy Armour option.

Swordsmen - I have a strong hunch that the hand weapon/shield bonus will be removed in 7th, so these guys won't be so much of a must-have.

Pikemen - These would also have the Royal Guard rule (so Parent only, and 1 for each normal State Troop unit, and again maybe a 25pt magic banner), as well as a Heavy Armour option. As a general 7th Edition rule, Pikes could be toned down to so that they wouldn't have strike first or the +1 strength rule, or toned down in some other way.

Special
Greatswords - These would no longer be 0-1, but would only be Stubborn when joined by the General. As a trade off, they would gain Immune to Panic (they honestly should be Immune to Panic) but probably cost a point more. One unit of Greatswords per army would be able to upgrade to either Teutogen (Frenzy) or Reiksguard (Hatred). I'm imagining Reiksguard as the chosen warriors of the Holy Empire of Sigmar, so no enemy would be above their Hatred, simply for being an enemy, although it is not important that they be named Reiksguard as opposed to something else. The upgrade would cost a few points per model.

Great Cannon - I love the experimental and alchemical background behind Empire engineering, but I don't think it is backed up enough. I think it might be neat for a Cannon to take upgrades if an Engineer joins it, one idea would be a normal cannon shot that didn't bounce but instead exploded after the first artillery dice, causing a small template of Str5 Magical Flaming Attacks with no armour save possible. On the negative side, when you roll on the miss-fire chart, you would roll two dice and take the lowest. The upgrade would cost some amount of points

Mortar - Likewise, the Mortar could have the option to buy Flare rounds. The Flare is fired like a normal Mortar round, but has no template. Any unit it hits takes one normal hit from a mortar blast (i.e. one S3 hit at -1 Save), and any unit that takes a wound from this attack must make a panic check (the flare round screeches ear-piercingly as it falls and burns stunningly bright, confusing the enemy). Also, after any hit is resolved, the player may place a token there, noting the distance, which stays there until that mortar uses the Flare attack again. The upgrade would cost some amount of points

Rare
Steam Tank - The Steam Tank would get a real place in the book, but would be a lot more simple, something more like a really tough chariot that doesn't automatically break to Str7+ hits. It would keep the steam gun and the ability to take a mortar, cannon or Helblaster. It would also be Immune to Psychology, Unbreakable, but be toast if its main armament blew up. To tone it down, it couldn't march (like a chariot), and decided its movement with an artillery die each turn it wanted to move (charging at double speed, or maybe rolling two artillery dice), with any miss-fire resulting in a roll on a miss-fire chart.

Keller
30-01-2006, 22:03
Skimishing Free Company is an option - but I would make sure it's not mandatory. Irregular themed armies need them to have some rank bonuses to be even marginally effective.
I agree whole-heartedly. I love playing militia armies, as they add a real challenge. However, they cannot function without ranks entirely, atleast not in the same sense.

I have been neglecting the fact that the Empire can already take skirmishing free-company, in the form of Dogs of War duelists. I am actually surprised that no one has raised this point already. I've done it in the past to add skirmishers to my militia, but I would really like to see a true-Empire choice, so they are 100% tournament legal. Drop the command options (save for champion) and allow for different weapons than the Dogs of War Duelists. Perhaps 2 hand weapons or greatweapons, with knives or axes (I think I would prefer Axes to better represent woodsmen) optional as well. No pistols though, as to distingish them from their mercenary bretheran.


If they are going to upgrade engineers, I don't want a copy of the dwarf ones. The upgrades should show the difference between dwarf and humans. By and large, dwarf engineers make their machines more reliable. They allow misfire re-rolls, artillery dice rerolls, or better chances to hit. This makes sense, as it fits the dwarf personna of sturdiness, reliability, and craftsmanship.

Human engineers, on the other hand, should be more liberal and willing to take risks. Their abilities should be able to drastically improve the abilities of empire artillery, but with an associated drastic increase in risk. For example, Having a master engineer could add D3 strength to a mortar attack, or allow it to cause multiple wounds, but would drastically increase the chance of misfires, as well as their negative effects.
As much as I like the Engineers' current reroll ability, I like your suggestion. I especially like that it further differentiates between the two races. I'm not sure what abilities they might be able to lend the machines, especially since the Great Cannon is already the strongest of cannons. Perhaps let it explose with a S2 small template where the ball stops. Mortars with an improved strength would probably be far too powerful, given its effectiveness now, but the multiple wounds would help it be more versitile against larger units, such as Ogres or other monsters. With these abilities, both warmachines would be a bit more versitile thanks to the engineer, and you wouldn't need to bring both machines all of the time.



Greatswords - 0-1 +1 per elector count, or perhaps make them like hammerers, have no restriction but require an elector count to take full advantage of their abilities. An interesting idea. It would definately work for me, though I currently use them mainly for the Stubborn rule. If they were more available, but only Stubborn with a Count, they could be used as small flanking/support units. I'm not really sure how I feel about this change, since I like to use them as blockers even if I don't have a Count to lead the army (sub 2k games, arranged battles, etc).


What we need is better shooting. Make the handgunners aroun 12 pionts as long as they have repeater handguns.
I wouldn't mind seeing an elite shooting unit in the army, though it would have to be more expensive (15 point per?) and be rare. The experminental weapons the Empire has is already pretty potent, but limited to marksmen. An elte unit with Repeaters or Hochlands would be nice, but would have to be small (5-10?) and pricely, to keep them from dominating table areas. I know that 2 units of 10 w/ Repeater Handgun marksmen already can lock down half the table against most enemies. Still, I would like to be able to take a more elite unit of shooters in my Tech armies, for variety if nothing else.

ROCKY
30-01-2006, 22:13
I am glad you thought so kel, but what do you think of having a goblin fanatic type character in the empire(with a 4 plus armor save)?

Galadrin
30-01-2006, 22:22
@Keller: You really think a unit armed completely with Repeaters would be a good idea? That means a unit of 10 would roll what, 30 dice? No offense, but it sounds a might powerful, no? What about the "technology upgrades" I mentioned in my post?

ROCKY
30-01-2006, 22:28
Hey rolling 30 dice is awesome! I sometimes roll 24 with my berserk sword!

EvilIncarnate
30-01-2006, 22:45
How about if a unit of handgunners has an Engineer in the unit it is allowed to reroll 1s to hit?

And does anybody use crossbowmen in their armies??

ROCKY
30-01-2006, 22:47
God, you are brilliant! Yes, this IS the way! Let us build an empire in which the Engineer has more say in the outcome of things!

Keller
31-01-2006, 01:06
but what do you think of having a goblin fanatic type character in the empire(with a 4 plus armor save)? I don't really care for it, to be honest. The Empire are an army of professional soldiers, not a bunch of crazed lunatics. Quite out of character, IMO. It could be fun, but I'd take up O&G or Slayers if I was that concerned with it.

I suppose you could work it into a religious theme, perhaps an upgrade for a
a unit Flagelants, but I don't really think it is a neccesary addition.


@Keller: You really think a unit armed completely with Repeaters would be a good idea? That means a unit of 10 would roll what, 30 dice? No offense, but it sounds a might powerful, no? What about the "technology upgrades" I mentioned in my post?
Yes, a unit of 10 guys with Repeaters, or even Hochlands, would be quite powerful. Thats why they need to be expensive and Rare. Still, it could be too powerful, but my understanding is that the 5th Ed. Outriders all carried repeater weaponry (before I started playing, I'm afraid). I wouldn't at all be upset if there were no such unit created, I just think it could be a fun unit to play around with.

As for your suggestions, I think you are on the right track, but not quite there. A S5, Magical Attack on the cannon would have to make it very risky. Given the fact that a skilled gunner can land the cannon ball on target nearly every time, that attack is just too devestating. The only thing one would have to worry about is falling a bit short or a bit over target.
As for the mortar, I like the idea of the flare, but I don't think it would do any good to lay a marker. I would tihnk most people could remember their guess from turn to turn, and adjust their fire according to enemy movement. Perhaps a flare that gives a bonus to shooting? or distracts the enemy to disrupt charge reactions? Fire the flare at the beginning of the turn, enemies must pass a Ld test or can only hold as a charge reaction as they watch the flare. Units immune to psych are uneffected. If you use the flare, your mortar cannot shoot that turn. Just an idea.



And does anybody use crossbowmen in their armies??
Sure. My militia army has no handgunners, using crossbowmen instead. But that is a fluff restriction. I do use crossbowmen in my state armies too, though usually only as detachments, partly to keep with their militia status. The 30" range sure can be handy, and S4 isn't bad at all. A small unit of 5 to fill holes in the line is handy, and the extra range helps a bit when trying to work angled shots around the ranked line.

I don' really like the +D6" on the initial blast from handguns. Its fitting of the powder technology, but really makes the guns overshadow the crossbows. That extra D6" is usually enough to bridge the range gap on the initial volley. After that, the 6" doesn't matter much. I think if they did away with the range boost, a lot more people would consider atleast 1 unit of crossbowmen.

Sayu
31-01-2006, 02:00
I agree that a Fanatic seems completely not Empire to me. Maybe for a specialized cult list - but definately not in the general Empire army.

Besides, I think O&G Fanatics are going to be simplified in the next book because of their 2 full pages of extremely dense special rules - I wouldn't expect to see them appearing in other armies.



And does anybody use crossbowmen in their armies??

You mean besides Dark Elves?

Dave Talley
31-01-2006, 03:27
There was a thought somewhere around here about taking greatswords and then being able to upgrade them to:

1. Reiksguard foot knights if you already have reiksguard in your army.
2. Teutogen guard if you already have white wolf knights in your army.
.


well remember reiksguard foot ARE the greatswords, the greatsword unit was invented so provinces other than reikland could have elite infantry, the actual reiksguard foot are only in 2 places, Altdorf and wherever Karl Franz is currently

now using original reiksguard foot, I do, I was lucky half my 20 figs were guys with greatswords, so the sword and shield guys just hide in back

I doubt we will see the revival of sword and shield reiksguard, they arent gonna give us a foot unit with a 2+ HTH save
Dave

Galadrin
31-01-2006, 04:49
As for your suggestions, I think you are on the right track, but not quite there. A S5, Magical Attack on the cannon would have to make it very risky. Given the fact that a skilled gunner can land the cannon ball on target nearly every time, that attack is just too devestating. The only thing one would have to worry about is falling a bit short or a bit over target.
As for the mortar, I like the idea of the flare, but I don't think it would do any good to lay a marker. I would tihnk most people could remember their guess from turn to turn, and adjust their fire according to enemy movement. Perhaps a flare that gives a bonus to shooting? or distracts the enemy to disrupt charge reactions? Fire the flare at the beginning of the turn, enemies must pass a Ld test or can only hold as a charge reaction as they watch the flare. Units immune to psych are uneffected. If you use the flare, your mortar cannot shoot that turn. Just an idea.

Well the cannon has to guess, then add an artillery die to it before rolling another artillery die for bounce, so it wouldn't be very reliable against most lone models (apart from, perhapse, ones with large bases). The flare is meant mostly to help newer warhammer players that are just not yet very good at guessing (in the same way as the spyglass option I mentioned for the Engineer).

Mad Makz
31-01-2006, 06:08
Army List Ideas:

This is mainly about increasing/changing composition based on Lord Choices

Lord Choices
Arch Lector of Sigmar - 1 Additional unit of Flagellents can be taken

Elector Count - One unit of State troops can take a magic banner, 1 unit of Spearmen can be upgraded to Half Pikes (as per the rules suggested earlier in this thread, Pike rules that strike in two ranks).

Grandmaster - One unit of Inner Circle Knights MUST be taken. IC Knights are no longer limited by the number of regular knight units you have.

Wizard Lord - As now.

Hero
Master Engineer: Current engineer stats. 1 unit of pistoliers may be upgraded to Outriders for +X points per model. Outriders are equipped with a mix of Repeater handguns and Repeater Pistols and other experimental weapns, to the following effect (Models in the unit count as being armed with a missile weapon with 16" range 2x Multiple shots, Strength 4, armour piercing. In close combat they count as being armed with a brace of pistols). Option to take some cool items (e.g. Spyglass type item: Add or subtract 1" from the range of guess for mortars or cannons after guessing, before rolling scatter or artillery dice, or something similiar.)

Halberds become armour piercing - Core game rule change.

IC knights are 1 unit per regular knight unit without a grandmaster.

That's about it really, just some 'nifty' stuff and some flexibility changes based on character choices.

RGB
31-01-2006, 06:14
Armour piercing halberds would still not get taken. Infantry with an AS of below 4+ or at the very least 5+ in CC is hardly viable this edition unless overwhelmingly cheap. It will be 80% swordsmen, 19% spears, 1% halberds or thereabouts, just like now.

If anything, halberds need a downcost, AND a small boost like AP/re-rolling 1s...AND an option to upgrade 0-1 to Count's Troops (HA) so thety'd get taken as parent blocks.

Alternatively, everything could be fixed by making the HW+Shield bonus go bye bye, followed by the +1 AS for being mounted.

Mad Makz
31-01-2006, 10:50
I think the HW - Shield combo will only remain for WS4 or more troops (or alternatively troops with a higher WS than their opponent). Or at least, I hope this is the case, if so Halberds with armour piercing would become a viable option for some troop types.

Keller
31-01-2006, 15:20
Well the cannon has to guess, then add an artillery die to it before rolling another artillery die for bounce, so it wouldn't be very reliable against most lone models (apart from, perhapse, ones with large bases). The flare is meant mostly to help newer warhammer players that are just not yet very good at guessing (in the same way as the spyglass option I mentioned for the Engineer).

Against single models, you don't really need to hit spot on with the blast from a cannon; you can just hit them with a regular cannonball. S10 D6 wounds is enough to bring down most single models. The template explosion would only be used to hitting ranked regiments, which you can hit accurately 50% of the time, thats if the Engineer doesn't allow a reroll. Instead of guessing 6" infront of the unit and hpoing for the bounce, you just have to guess 6" to the center of it. A roll of 4, 6, or 8 will still result in a hit on the unit, to some degree. A 2, 10, or misfire would not. With a reroll, you could be hitting 75% of the time, at double the chance of misfire. For a S5 magical expolsion, thats a bit too easy.

I guess helping new players with the mortar wouldn't be a bad idea, but it isn't so hard to adjust to anyway. It doesn't allow a pre-measure, just helps you remember previous shots. They could right down what their guess was and where abouts it landed, hypothetically, since there is no rule to stop it. Once you know your distance, its easy to adjust for enemy movement.



Lord Choices
Arch Lector of Sigmar - 1 Additional unit of Flagellents can be taken

Elector Count - One unit of State troops can take a magic banner, 1 unit of Spearmen can be upgraded to Half Pikes (as per the rules suggested earlier in this thread, Pike rules that strike in two ranks).
I like the Arch Lector, though I would like to see him be available to more than Sigmar, as I hope for more options in dieties in 7th edition for more variety. I am still not sold on the whole half-pike regiments. Spears have been working fine, and I would rather see Greatswordsmen get a boost, possibly from an Elector present.



Master Engineer: Current engineer stats. 1 unit of pistoliers may be upgraded to Outriders for +X points per model. Outriders are equipped with a mix of Repeater handguns and Repeater Pistols and other experimental weapns, to the following effect (Models in the unit count as being armed with a missile weapon with 16" range 2x Multiple shots, Strength 4, armour piercing. In close combat they count as being armed with a brace of pistols). Option to take some cool items (e.g. Spyglass type item: Add or subtract 1" from the range of guess for mortars or cannons after guessing, before rolling scatter or artillery dice, or something similiar.)
I really like the idea of the Out Riders, but I hope they are BS4! They would be elite marksmen, possibly fast cavalry? Maybe too powerful, considering Dark Riders. Is that to be 1 unit per Engineer, or any number of engi's allow 1 unit? Also, the Engineer himself really needs a BS increase, especially considering Captains, Counts, and Grand Masters can outshoot him.


Grandmaster - One unit of Inner Circle Knights MUST be taken. IC Knights are no longer limited by the number of regular knight units you have.

IC knights are 1 unit per regular knight unit without a grandmaster.

I don't think this is the best solution for IC knights. IC Knights would still be all over the place. Besides, Empire hardly needs a bunch of S4 cavalry. I still feel 0-1 per GM is the best option. The Inner Circle is the best of the best, and would not show up for just any old battle, and most that would attract the IC would also attract the GM.

Lafeel Abriel
31-01-2006, 15:28
How about if a unit of handgunners has an Engineer in the unit it is allowed to reroll 1s to hit?

And does anybody use crossbowmen in their armies??
I do, have found that those extra 6 inches of range can come in quite handy.

I, frankly, dislike the idea of having units of guys armed with either repeater handguns, or long rifles, as I can see at least two flaws: 1: morbidly expensive (both in points, and cash, GW would never make them out of plastic) and 2: way too overspecialized, and so more trouble than they are actualy worth.

Oh, since we are on the subject..There is a idea I have been rolling around in my head recently, a modification to the Hellblaster rules, and I might just share it.

As it is a nine barrelled weapon it can shoot up to nine barrels (including all nine at once, if the player wants) without needing to reload, but when all are gone it must spend a full turn reloading. And as a extra point the 6 misfire would mean that only all barrels nominated (nominated prior to the roll of the first artillery dice) shoot, but you would have to spend a turn reloading as per the previos point.

Sound workable?

LaughinGremlin
02-02-2006, 23:51
The obvious:
modified, slimmed-down Steam Tank rules

Whatever special characters there are, it would be nice if they didn't take a Hero AND a Rare slot. It woud be nice to see a return of Luthor Huss as a "higher level," and more zealos than ever.

Moot home guard list

Off the wall idea:
Empire Dwarf engineer -- Expatriot dwarfs reside in the Empire. They need jobs - why not? Oh yeah, dwarf players will complain that the Empire has too much cool stuff.

Not so off the wall:
Warrior priests for various gods/goddess

Dave Talley
03-02-2006, 02:39
Ia modification to the Hellblaster rules, and I might just share it.

As it is a nine barrelled weapon it can shoot up to nine barrels (including all nine at once, if the player wants) without needing to reload, but when all are gone it must spend a full turn reloading. And as a extra point the 6 misfire would mean that only all barrels nominated (nominated prior to the roll of the first artillery dice) shoot, but you would have to spend a turn reloading as per the previos point.

Sound workable?


nope, thats the basic way it worked in 5th ed, except no reloading, there is no way they will allow a 9 barrel with a reload without driving the price to
200+ points
Dave

Lafeel Abriel
03-02-2006, 20:07
Maybe, but this does also slightly down power it, as you have to reload as soon as you've gone a full circle (ie: shot a total of nine barrels), and having to spend a whole turn reloading is no small deal, and note that I am not doing anything to improve it's reliability..As the thing is supposed to be unreliable, just as hellblasters in history have been. (yes, they actually built similar machines..I've seen them)

Gotreksbrother
04-02-2006, 00:56
you mean that you get to roll 9 artillery dices to see how many shots it fires? takes me back to 4th/5th edition where you could get up to 90 shots in one turn...it might make the VG more unreliable but if you are lucky enough to get half the barrels of without a misfire it can shoot any unit in the game off the table...waaay too powerful...

instead of fixing what aint (so) broken, I think its more important to think of alternatives...Engineers and warrior priests should be a lot more common than wizards according to the background, right now its too easy to get mages in the army. I think you should only be able to take a mage (any level) for each character you have that is not a mage (this should be a general rule for most armies...). Engineers could be upgrades for warmachines like dwarves and get a handgun and/or pistol upgrade possibility. But the Hochland long rifle and repeater handgun should only be available to the master engineer (a hero choice)...and not be available to every unit champion in units of handgunners (a no brainer choice right now)

Knights should be able to belong to a specific order (make a short list of 5-10 famous orders with advantages and disadvantages for each). The Steam Tank should be available as two rare choices and with easier rules and a higher point cost (the model is really nice and deserves to be kept in the game, but it should force empire players to make a choice between it and the other rare choices)...
Somehow integrate the Cult of Ulric list into the book and make possibilities for new special regiments like the Averland Black Mountain Bergjaegers based on a provincial army theme chosen like honours for the elector count...

Id like to see an empire army reliant on disciplined infantry and technology more than cavalry and magic...

Lafeel Abriel
04-02-2006, 21:40
Good point..Oh well, only one thing to do..Back to the old drawing board, and see if I can find other good ideas, or even bad ones (constructive critism always helps), and get the views of others about them. Thanks for the imput, guys.

Galadrin
05-02-2006, 15:48
instead of fixing what aint (so) broken, I think its more important to think of alternatives...Engineers and warrior priests should be a lot more common than wizards according to the background, right now its too easy to get mages in the army. I think you should only be able to take a mage (any level) for each character you have that is not a mage (this should be a general rule for most armies...). Engineers could be upgrades for warmachines like dwarves and get a handgun and/or pistol upgrade possibility. But the Hochland long rifle and repeater handgun should only be available to the master engineer (a hero choice)...and not be available to every unit champion in units of handgunners (a no brainer choice right now)

Knights should be able to belong to a specific order (make a short list of 5-10 famous orders with advantages and disadvantages for each). The Steam Tank should be available as two rare choices and with easier rules and a higher point cost (the model is really nice and deserves to be kept in the game, but it should force empire players to make a choice between it and the other rare choices)...
Somehow integrate the Cult of Ulric list into the book and make possibilities for new special regiments like the Averland Black Mountain Bergjaegers based on a provincial army theme chosen like honours for the elector count...

Id like to see an empire army reliant on disciplined infantry and technology more than cavalry and magic...

About wizards, I do think they need to be made a little less of an obvious choice. I really see way to many armies that are mashing everyone with massive power dice instead of a good infantry/cavalry hero. One idea is that 7th Edition could take the Warhammer Roleplay 2ed idea of Miscasting on any double (with triples being an even worse miscast). The doubles miscast table wouldn't be as bad as the current table, and the triples could be worse than the current one.

EDIT: Note, this would mean a wizard would get a minor miscast 1/6th of the time with two dice, bringing wizards more in line with artillery. Triples on three dice would be the same probability as miscasting double 1's on 2d6. The benefit this has for WFRP 2ed is that a wizard really has to think how many dice he wants to put into an attempt. Also like WFRP, the worst result on the minor miscast could make you roll on the major miscast.

Warrior Priests would certainly be a little more tempting if they offered 2 Dispel Dice instead of 1, although this would almost certainly entail Warrior Priests losing their Bound Spells (which I do like and find fluffy). Warrior Priests, as I've said before, should also not be so great at attack, but more like Flagellants (lower WS of 4, greater Attacks of 3 or frenzied etc).

I think Unit Engineers and Master Engineers would be a good idea, with similar ideas as the Dwarfs have (but not the same, of course). The special rifles and things would have to be upgraded if they were engineer only though. The Repeater Handgun could even work like a mini Helblaster that doesn't auto-hit (with only 1 artillery die, and possibly reduced strength, with a missfiring meaning the Engineer is hit automatically with one bullet). I'd like to see the Hochland pierce ranks like a bolt thrower, just because that would be pretty funny. Even a grape-shot like blunderbuss might be in order.

Keller
05-02-2006, 19:13
I'd like to see magic redone. The miscast doubles and triples is an interesting idea, but would force spells to have slightly lower casting costs. It would really hurt level 3 and 4 casters too.

I like warrior priests in the current incarnation. They provide the leadership of a captain, but add dispel dice so you can replace a mage. They are a bit too militaristic, maybe, and could be made more fanatical, but I suppose that would be more dependent on which god you take. As I have said, I really hope fore more options in selecting what type of priest you have, even if its 1 type per army.

Galadrin
05-02-2006, 20:27
I also really like the different Priests idea, although I'm almost certain GW will only reinforce the Sigmarite Priest idea in the next incarnation (they wanted the Empire to be more religious on the battlefield, and that is sure to mean fanatical Sigmar).

If they don't do that, I'd like to see an upgrade to the Warrior Priest (like the Wood Elf Kindreds upgrades for their Heroes) as something along these lines:

Blessing of Taal (+X points): Unit ignores the effects of Difficult Terrain.

Blessing of Myrmidia (+X points): Unit is Immune to Panic.

Blessing of Morr (+X points): Unit is Immune to Fear. (Who's going to worry about death that much when they have a priest to safely carry them to the afterlife?)

And so on, and so forth. The ability would most likely be a Bound Spell, so it could be dispelled now and then. If they did this, the Sigmar ability would have to be the best most likely, in order to reinforce the use of Sigmar. Having a Sigmar Priest could have other advantages too (like the whole Hate Chaos/Skaven/Undead, and maybe even Orcs and Goblins), or maybe Flagellants will be 0-1 per Sigmar Warrior Priest.

And in any case, plastic Flagellants, please!


EDIT: Also, Flagellants should be a much juicier option than they are now, in comparison to other Rare choices. To improve them a good amount (without making them broken), you could make them 0-1 per Warrior Priest (or 0-1 unless your General is a Warrior Priest), and make them not count for enemy victory points. That way they have a very clear tactical use as a sacrificial unit (and would also encourage players to use them as such). Some might think this is overpowered, since they are unbreakable and you could use them as a tar pit that sticks another enemy unit in combat for a turn or two (while not giving victory points), so maybe some stat changes to make them more expensive or less effective would be in order.

Steel_Legion
05-02-2006, 20:32
sounds good, the different priest god/esses and yeah! we deffinitly need plastic flagellants, i've yet to have a game where i fielded these and they didn't do themselves proud! is there going to be any empire releases in the near future?

Sayu
05-02-2006, 20:43
"is there going to be any empire releases in the near future?"

Well, the new game and Orcs are out in Sept/Oct and Empire will be #2, so probably about a year till a new Army Book and a wave of new releases.

Steel_Legion
05-02-2006, 20:47
Excelent! As long as they update the hand gunners and spearmen ill be happy! :D But hopefully something like plastic flagellants and other metals turned into a plastic sprue would be nice, as that seems to be happening to alot these days.

Sayu
05-02-2006, 22:08
I'd love to see plastic Sigmar/Ulric accessory sprues similar to what they did for Black Templars too.

That way you could accessorize a Middenheim army or White Wolfs and convert Flagellants from Free Company.

Keller
06-02-2006, 03:22
I made my Flagelant unit out of Mordhiem Witch Hunters and some of the archive Flagellant models. I just don't like the 6th edition ones.


Also, Flagellants should be a much juicier option than they are now, in comparison to other Rare choices.
Personally, I think the Flagelants are the best Rare choice Empire has. The Steam Tank is just horribly broken, so I don't use it. Griffon Legion are decent, but you can get more heavily armored S4 cav as core, not that I like cavalry much anyway. Helblasters are too damned unreliable; I honestly don't think they have ever done much for me. That leaves me with DoW or Flagelants for Rare. I don't like to include mercenaries, unless its to complete a theme, and my Flagelants don't often join my profession armies, just my irregulars, so I often don't use any rares at all.

Olith
08-02-2006, 14:35
I've not seen it suggested, here at least, but perhaps the steam tank, as well as having it's rules changed for it to not be so far apart from the rules everyone else is using, could be moved to a special "character". There are only 8, it isn't going to be a common feature in every army, the old world as far as I know doesn't have roman style roads all over it. That removes it from tournament play and pick up games and brings it into the realm of asking for opponents permission. If people can't, or won't, comunicate with their opponents before hand over something which can change the game play so drastically then force them to. It would of course still remain as a rare choice, or two if deemed necessary depending on what they do wit the rules.

unforgiven555
08-02-2006, 21:41
8. Make the Mortar St 4.
I always figured it was there to take out massive blocks of infantry, but not much else. Its massive pieplate (It uses the larger template) helps clear the way of cheap troops pretty effectively. Having s4 makes it rather similar to a stronger stonethrower, and possibly deadly against Skaven, VC, O&G and other hordes. Cannons, hellblasters, and handgunners give shooting ways to deal with heavy toughness, the morter seems decent. Changing its targetting rules to reflect that of a stone thrower might be reasonable (but I don't think upping its strength is advisable).


Huntsmen with Longbows

p29; archers: bow & hand weapon
huntsmen: longbow & hand weapon.
To my knowledge erratta has only affected the engineer and character's steed profile, am I mistaken?


Alternatively, everything could be fixed by making the HW+Shield bonus go bye bye, followed by the +1 AS for being mounted.

So in other words allow infantry to have better saves then heavy calvary?... Because that's fair. I'm sorry, but no, this hurts calvary alot. One of the great things about heavy calvary is that armour save boost combined with barding. Non plated armies rely on it to help with shooting (Bretonnians?). By taking that away, you're giving far more power to the infantry, but they already have significant power with combat resolution. I can see the HW & shield bonus disapear, but no the +1AS for being mounted... unless of course you'd prefer to randomize hits against the horses? But that would complicate things considerably. Black powder and such reduces the effectiveness of calvary enough, taking away their armour save is, IMO, too much.

tomfohrd
09-02-2006, 13:52
Quick thoughts:

Let my captains and elector counts take the repeaters. I'm an elector count, you think I'm only going to let marksmen and engineers have the best toys?

Get rid of the detachments. I like the rules, but dont' like the cost I pay for them. I'd rather have cheaper troops across the board. Plus, once someone has played against detachments, they never work.

Can I get some armor combinations? Why don't we have foot troops with heavy armor. or full plate and shield? Make greatswords foot knights with option for GW.

mageith
09-02-2006, 14:01
[QUOTE=tomfohrd]Get rid of the detachments. I like the rules, but dont' like the cost I pay for them. I'd rather have cheaper troops across the board.

??? How cheap do you want them? Free companies are 5 points.

Plus, once someone has played against detachments, they never work.

I bet you aren't playing them right. What doesn't work about them?


Can I get some armor combinations? Why don't we have foot troops with heavy armor. or full plate and shield?

You do Great swords! Full plate and shield would be 2+ armor save under the current rules. In other words, it would just be too good and/or too expensive.

Make greatswords foot knights with option for GW.
??? Unclear. They already have a Great Weapon. Are you talking about a rule to dismount? Or upping the stats and options to being like knights?

Mage Ith

Bubble Ghost
09-02-2006, 14:13
Get rid of the detachments. I like the rules, but dont' like the cost I pay for them. I'd rather have cheaper troops across the board.
You don't pay any points at all for detachments. They're an army special rule, they aren't factored into the points values of units.

Dave Talley
09-02-2006, 14:42
[Make greatswords foot knights with option for GW.
??? Unclear. They already have a Great Weapon. Are you talking about a rule to dismount? Or upping the stats and options to being like knights?

Mage Ith


Ith
My fellow texan is probably meaning an option to have your footknights with either a greatsword or weapon and shield

Dave

tomfohrd
09-02-2006, 18:50
The point cost for the detachment rule is built in to the basic trooper. Look at the Ulric list and compare. 5 pts for a handweapon/shield basic trooper. General consensus is that it adds a point to spears/halberdiers/swordsmen etc.

yes, I want foot knights, or at least options for armor/shield combinations. I didn't say I wouldn't pay extra for them. Just give me the option.

Bubble Ghost
10-02-2006, 15:22
The point cost for the detachment rule is built in to the basic trooper. Look at the Ulric list and compare. 5 pts for a handweapon/shield basic trooper. General consensus is that it adds a point to spears/halberdiers/swordsmen etc.

I know that's the general consensus, and it's wrong.:p Almost everything's cheaper in the Cult of Ulric army list, not just units who can use detachments. The lower costing is a 'special rule' for the Cult of Ulric to allow it to field more troops, compensating for a limited range of tactics and units.

You don't pay for detachments. If detachments went, you'd pay exactly the same cost for Empire soldiers, so you might as well keep them.

foehammer888
10-02-2006, 16:04
Warrior Priests would certainly be a little more tempting if they offered 2 Dispel Dice instead of 1, although this would almost certainly entail Warrior Priests losing their Bound Spells (which I do like and find fluffy). I think that might be a little too powerful. It's equivilent dispel dice to Dwarf Runelords and Level 3/4 wizards. One dispel dice is enough.


Warrior Priests, as I've said before, should also not be so great at attack, but more like Flagellants (lower WS of 4, greater Attacks of 3 or frenzied etc). Perhaps always being affect by hatred?


I think Unit Engineers and Master Engineers would be a good idea, with similar ideas as the Dwarfs have (but not the same, of course). The special rifles and things would have to be upgraded if they were engineer only though. The Repeater Handgun could even work like a mini Helblaster that doesn't auto-hit (with only 1 artillery die, and possibly reduced strength, with a missfiring meaning the Engineer is hit automatically with one bullet). I'd like to see the Hochland pierce ranks like a bolt thrower, just because that would be pretty funny. Even a grape-shot like blunderbuss might be in order. I've mentioned it before, I think when it comes to human engineers vs. dwarves, there should be the chance of better effectiveness than their dwarf counterparts, but also increased risk. When it comes to science and engineering spectrum in warhammer, Dwarves are the most conservative, while Skaven are the most liberal/amoral. Humans should be somewhere in between. Allow human engineers to have some cool toys and to have some particularly effective special rules for war machines, but also have them negatively affective the misfire charts/affects of their weapons. They have new-fangled skills and inventions, but they are not tried and tested like dwarf equivilants.

Foehammer

Templar_Victorious
15-07-2006, 08:40
Don't touch my steam tank. Although it is way out of anything logical, it is a fantasy world. Other armies have their great monsters, SC, huge deamons of destruction... Let us empire players see OUR enemies look a bit worried when the big metal thingie is brought out... and then outmanouvre and crush him without even relying on the Steamtanks impact on the game. After all, I think the Empire army is the most rewarding army if you play it tactically right.. but' that's maybe because I almost only face lizardmen or chaos, which troopers rarely have any T3 units (except lizards with there +2 skink skirmishing units which are T2). They don't have to worry about every weapon in the game as they are on average less likely to die either from shooting or CC... so it's all about making the best of your troops...

Wisdom
15-07-2006, 19:44
I don't mind the Empire having Steam tanks but I prefer them as the exception rather than the rule. What I mean to say is I think they fit into the background quite well as being only few in number and being an idea ahead of its time idea from a da vinciesque sort of scientist. What worries me is the rumours that the technical stuff is going to get more advanced and more common (ie. the clockwork horse thing).

Alathir
16-07-2006, 08:30
For Empire.. I've always thought that maybe with handgunners if they roll a 1 to hit, they roll d6 and if they roll another 1, then the gun backfires and they take a hit or even a wound or something? It would make for some funny moments and weaken gunlines a tiny bit.

Viskrit
16-07-2006, 10:15
Yes, I'd also like to see Empire shooting as a little unreliable. They have learned gunmaking from the dwarfs, but have far from perfected this art.

However, the Skaven have that rule for our jezzails. Shouldn't our jezzails be more unreliable than empire guns? That's a problem.

Alathir
16-07-2006, 16:33
I guess just make the jezzails slightly more likely to backfire.

I also agree with the empire's apparent mastery over gunpowder and the like.

I'm glad they sorted out dwarf and empire cannons... it didnt make sense that Empire's were better at all.

Hlokk
16-07-2006, 19:19
I'd love to see warwagons and outriders make a comeback, perhaps in an appendix armylist for Nuln, given its where the weapons colledge is.

Also, I want to see a trait/selection thing for different provinces. I dunno, Reiklanders get huntsmen with the 0-1 restriction removed and longrifles for engineers cheaper, Perhaps Altdorf gets the 0-1 restriction on greatswords taken off, to represent the reiksguard on foot.

Also, that thing for knights in WD is great, and should be included.

god octo
16-07-2006, 19:25
dont forget halflings- both the bow and spear versions, as in the DoW list. they are sooo funny and characterful.

Stouty
16-07-2006, 19:37
as in the DoW list.

Doesn't that mean you can already have them as a rare choice?:p

Alathir
17-07-2006, 03:12
I'd love to see warwagons and outriders make a comeback, perhaps in an appendix armylist for Nuln, given its where the weapons colledge is.

Also, I want to see a trait/selection thing for different provinces. I dunno, Reiklanders get huntsmen with the 0-1 restriction removed and longrifles for engineers cheaper, Perhaps Altdorf gets the 0-1 restriction on greatswords taken off, to represent the reiksguard on foot.

Also, that thing for knights in WD is great, and should be included.

Yeah, I'd really like to see that as well. The Empire is a diverse place, the army should reflect that.

Dr Death
17-07-2006, 11:29
I would support a trait system in a very limited form. What i do not want to see is it "go 40k" and have endless varient armies, im afraid i've become rather disenchanted with that tactic of essentially allowing infinate tactical flexability- why bother thinking about which army suits your style of play when you can construct it so it does?

Rather what i would have in mind is something more like the Mordheim 'Reiklander', 'Middenheimer' and 'Marienburg' "traits", whereby each has a single difference that just tweak their use slightly. You've got to keep it subtle, if you go wacking in you're going to miss what it's all about. Ultimately an empire army from whichever state should play pretty similarly, with the exception of a "leaning" towards one aspect of the empires immensely wide ranging tatical library

Dr Death

WillFightForFood
17-07-2006, 20:54
I don't mind the Empire having Steam tanks but I prefer them as the exception rather than the rule. What I mean to say is I think they fit into the background quite well as being only few in number and being an idea ahead of its time idea from a da vinciesque sort of scientist. What worries me is the rumours that the technical stuff is going to get more advanced and more common (ie. the clockwork horse thing).

The technology is going to get more advanced and more common. New technologies and means of dealing with the world will come about. Why should the warhammer world (or for that matter, the 40K universe) be totally stagnant technologically?

In any case, slightly different lists based upon traits sounds interesting, but balancing them is difficult task.

Grand Warlord
17-07-2006, 22:11
Personally I don't use a steam tank and never will, more because my army story doesnt really fit one bar the occasional siege...

I would like to see outriders back but i doubt it..

pas
17-02-2007, 14:10
make huntsmen more useful

Arhalien
17-02-2007, 14:13
oh dear, big-time Threadnomancy.
Pas if an article is a long way back in the forums listings it means that it's very old and hasn;t been posted on for a long time. Looking at the dates of the posts is also useful when determining waht to post on or not.
This is an article which is discussing the changes wanted for the Empire book which has just come out.

edit: When did I decide to take on the duties of moderator? :confused:

Wintermute
17-02-2007, 14:36
edit: When did I decide to take on the duties of moderator? :confused:

You didn't :p

Thread Closed

Wintermute
The WarSeer Inquisition