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Ivellis
02-12-2009, 11:29
Do you think 40k would be better if it took place during the Horus Heresy? I've recently begun to think it would. If the players were actually following along with the Heresy with each new edition and we didn't know where it would go next. (Adding in the other races more often of course, have to cater to all players.)

Instead of all the most interesting events taking place in the past and well, now nothing of interest happens.

It's quite disappointing actually, thinking about what the background could've been.

UrielSynthesis
02-12-2009, 11:35
The Heresy would focus on Chaos vs. Imperium much to the exclusion of all else. And the Heresy defines so much of the pathos and well, everything else about the armies we have. That grudge, that wound is responsible for a lot of the unique flavor of this game.

You may not realize it but the thing that really makes the Heresy, the Emperor, and the Primarchs so cool to everyone (including you) is that they are a distant memory, a legend of titans battling for the fate of humanity, dwarfing by far any of the still insane stuff going on right now. The Horus Heresy novel series has dampened this mystique somewhat but it's still there. Putting it at the forefront of the game takes a lot of awe out of the fluff, because you have nothing to look back on and say "wow, just thinking about what that must have been like makes me feel small".

It's a similar effect to how horror movies like Alien are scarier because you don't get to see much of the monster.

Ph4lanx
02-12-2009, 11:36
I agree. I quite like where 40k is now. The Horus Heresy is amazing fluff BECAUSE it is fluff.

However, I wouldn't mind them moving 40k up to say, 41k :) Sooooo many what-if's at the moment...

Count de Monet
02-12-2009, 11:40
I like the Heresy being in the past of the mainline 40K, with it and the great crusade being times of legend. Part of why I dislike the HH series of books is it puts too much detail in.

If you think the complaining about things like Medusa V or the EoT campaign were bad, imagine the complaints we'd get if the Heresy stuff was new. The loyalist players of various armies being angry about their legion turning traitor, the wails from players of legions almost wiped out at Isstvaan, the outcry from the results of the Seige of Terra...

Ivellis
02-12-2009, 11:43
I like the Heresy being in the past of the mainline 40K, with it and the great crusade being times of legend. Part of why I dislike the HH series of books is it puts too much detail in.

If you think the complaining about things like Medusa V or the EoT campaign were bad, imagine the complaints we'd get if the Heresy stuff was new. The loyalist players of various armies being angry about their legion turning traitor, the wails from players of legions almost wiped out at Isstvaan, the outcry from the results of the Seige of Terra...

Am I the only one who finds the complaints and cries of rage amusing and fun?

TheShadowCow
02-12-2009, 11:57
Instead of all the most interesting events taking place in the past and well, now nothing of interest happens.



Oh... you didn't. I really don't think you're aware of what you're saying there.

The HH had lots happening, yes. Almost all of it focused around the HH itself though.

Current 40k has stuff happening *everywhere* to *everyone*.

Plenty of bigger events (Armageddon III, 13th Black Crusade, Hive Fleet Leviathan etc etc) plus a billion and one smaller events, character arcs and adventures are out there if you take a moment to look for them.

The HH was all tied into one big arc, where as current 40k is set around the infinite shards left behind after that big arc shattered. Sure, the big exciting Primarch-esque characters are in the past, but that's fine - they are part of the legend, and in their wake spring up a host of new and exciting characters and ideas.

I can understand why the HH looks new, exciting and dynamic but rest assured there's mountains of "things of interest" going on now too. Indeed, if reality were altered and we'd all grown up with the HH and then GW had released details on the galaxy 10,000 years on, you'd be inclined to ask "wouldn't it have been cooler to have that as the setting since it's so much broader than just a few years worth of events?".

Bloodknight
02-12-2009, 12:02
If the players were actually following along with the Heresy with each new edition and we didn't know where it would go next.

I've been playing Classic BattleTech for almost 20 years now, and the one big insight I got is that evolving background is dangerous and sometimes not worth it. They really ruined that game at some point when the background hit the wall with no sensible ways to go. I am also playing a couple of RPGs with ongoing background, and most of the time I wish they didn't do that. It gets silly when your group kills somebody who becomes something really important in the official fluff a couple of months later.

Brucopeloso
02-12-2009, 12:03
It would be the same as it is now: marines vs. marines with some xenos now and then to break the monotony ;)

meno1
02-12-2009, 12:15
No, I don't think it'd be good at all. I mean sure, everyone knows GW only cares about marines, but at least the other races are still there. If this happened, no longer would the other zenos be there, nor would the ordo malleus and the ordo hereticus, or even the imperial guard. It would just be marines vs. chaos marines, and I don't think anyone really wants that.

I also agree with the others on fluff. The Horus Heresy's soo interesting because of the fables and tales from it. As an expansion, I'd be ok with it, but definately not to replace 40K. 41K does sound awesome though:D

The Anarchist
02-12-2009, 12:17
Personally i feel wishing to be playing in the HH is a sign of stagnation in the present setting of 40k. we need soemthing new and growing to keep the interest, the progression of the story seems to have stalled the last few editions and this means we are looking for anywhere with new and interesting fluff. However the HH should i feel be kept a time of legend, i enjoy the HH books immensely, however anymore than the BL books risks ruining it.

Blood night has a point, however in the case of battletech they moved on for the most part on leaps and bounds, this was in my opinion the mistake. If gw moved the fluff on just a little bit, I'm talking 5 years or so at most each edition, giving new insights and facets with each codex it would build momentum without moving it on to the extent of ruining the feel of the game.

Deadmanwade
02-12-2009, 12:23
I love 40k and I love the fluff for the setting. Note though that 40k covers 1000 years of "history" so there is a tonne of stuff going on in the setting. I am INCREDIBLY happy playing 40k.

However my friend and I are building Crusade/HH era armies using the Tempus Fugitives rule sets (www.tempusfugitives.co.uk) as they add a lot of cool stuff and we both have regular MEQ armies already and fancied a change. I like the idea of different stuff being available at different times. E.g. the Tempus Fugitives have a limit on Assault Cannons and Rhino/Land Raider variants but add in cool rules of their own like the Thunder Rhino (open topped, fast)

You can use the rule set to play whatever you like, but the HH books and current trend for pre-heresy armies isnt what got most of us into the hobby.

LordLucan
02-12-2009, 12:46
Oh... you didn't. I really don't think you're aware of what you're saying there.

The HH had lots happening, yes. Almost all of it focused around the HH itself though.

Current 40k has stuff happening *everywhere* to *everyone*.

Plenty of bigger events (Armageddon III, 13th Black Crusade, Hive Fleet Leviathan etc etc) plus a billion and one smaller events, character arcs and adventures are out there if you take a moment to look for them.

The HH was all tied into one big arc, where as current 40k is set around the infinite shards left behind after that big arc shattered. Sure, the big exciting Primarch-esque characters are in the past, but that's fine - they are part of the legend, and in their wake spring up a host of new and exciting characters and ideas.

I can understand why the HH looks new, exciting and dynamic but rest assured there's mountains of "things of interest" going on now too. Indeed, if reality were altered and we'd all grown up with the HH and then GW had released details on the galaxy 10,000 years on, you'd be inclined to ask "wouldn't it have been cooler to have that as the setting since it's so much broader than just a few years worth of events?".

Brilliant answer! I agree.

Lord Malorne
02-12-2009, 12:56
I would have no interest in playing the Horus Heresy at all. I also wish the fixation on the heresy would be over already, 10,000 years and that keeps popping up again and again, more interesting things have occured.

Lord Malornecan

Fallen DA
02-12-2009, 14:19
For me the HH is in part that much more interesting because of the game as it is now and the history it has developed over time. A HH version of the game would have a following however.

Sir_Turalyon
02-12-2009, 15:07
It would be simplistic good guys vs bad guys game background. I prefere 40k as it is.

Poseidal
02-12-2009, 15:30
I've been playing Classic BattleTech for almost 20 years now, and the one big insight I got is that evolving background is dangerous and sometimes not worth it. They really ruined that game at some point when the background hit the wall with no sensible ways to go. I am also playing a couple of RPGs with ongoing background, and most of the time I wish they didn't do that. It gets silly when your group kills somebody who becomes something really important in the official fluff a couple of months later.

Agree 100% with this. (Is L5R one of these too?)

In fact, it would be better if they touched the Heresy far far less and left it in a state of mystery.

I think it was cooler when we didn't even know what the legions were back then, all we have is random records and Chaos Marines with archaic armour shouting about long forgotten legions. I find it quite amazing none of the original 'known' legions didn't have a disaster wiping them out in 10,000 years. I think it would be a cool idea to have successors of these, where they KNOW the name of their founder (so not one of the two missing legions) but the original chapter is just a memory now.

marv335
02-12-2009, 17:28
No Tau, No Necrons, No 'Nids, No Inquisition.
Marines, IG, Maybe Eldar, maybe Orks.
Bad idea

Kahadras
02-12-2009, 19:04
I'd certainly want to see minatures produced for that period in the history of the Imperium. It would work nicely as a supliment IMHO like Apocalypse or City fight. Drop in rules for the Primarchs and the more weird and wonderful technology of the HH and you're good to go TBH.

Kahadras

gorgon
02-12-2009, 19:07
If the question was about a HH 40K supplement, it'd be a license to print money. Based on the huge popularity of the novels, you can't tell me hobbyists wouldn't snatch up overpriced Mournival miniatures boxed sets. Or a pricey Erebus blister. Or start brand new SM armies using the new HH upgrade sprues.

The supplement itself would be straightforward. A ton of fluff, most of which could be lifted from the novels or other various existing sources. Throw in a couple of pages of rules for SM/CSM in the 30th millenium, a ton of special characters based on the characters in the novels, and a bunch of new missions which also simulate some of the battles and engagements in the novels.

No, it wouldn't replace standard 40K. But it'd be a big seller, and far more energizing to the customer base than something like Planetstrike. The supplement would promote the novels, while the novels would promote the supplement. Intracompany synergies FTW!

I agree that background shouldn't be advanced, but that has nothing to do with the HH, which lies in the "past". There's nothing wrong with replaying "historical" battles and seeing if they come out differently. That's the entire point of a little hobby known as historical wargaming, without which 40K would likely not exist. Books and codex text don't spontaneously change worldwide because my buddy and I play a game in which the loyalists escape at Istvaan. It's creating a "what-if" scenario. And that sounds fun as h*ll to me.

P.S. The HH books included plenty of xenos, including Orks and Eldar. Chaos Daemons would be fine, as would Dark Eldar.

sabre4190
02-12-2009, 19:17
The horus heresy was really interesting, but I don't think it is the best idea of an ongoing game. There is 1 conflict going on. 1. Everything would revolve around the heresy, and it would severly limit the freedom of storytelling. What if I want to play a in a crusade against the orks? Well, it would be hard to justify this crusade considering all thats going on. The current 40k universe is wide open, and allows for limitless possibilities. Ive made tons a great campaigns with my friends. You don't need GW to make a storyline for your battles. They create the backstory, and you can use some creativity to create you own set up.

And yeah, a rapidly changing status quo just doesnt work. First i was loyalist, and now im traitor. My standard looking death guard now have to be disease ridden. Or, my primarch that was leading my forces is now dead. Such widespread changes in armies doesnt work.

DEADMARSH
02-12-2009, 20:04
If the question was about a HH 40K supplement, it'd be a license to print money. Based on the huge popularity of the novels, you can't tell me hobbyists wouldn't snatch up overpriced Mournival miniatures boxed sets. Or a pricey Erebus blister. Or start brand new SM armies using the new HH upgrade sprues.

The supplement itself would be straightforward. A ton of fluff, most of which could be lifted from the novels or other various existing sources. Throw in a couple of pages of rules for SM/CSM in the 30th millenium, a ton of special characters based on the characters in the novels, and a bunch of new missions which also simulate some of the battles and engagements in the novels.

No, it wouldn't replace standard 40K. But it'd be a big seller, and far more energizing to the customer base than something like Planetstrike. The supplement would promote the novels, while the novels would promote the supplement. Intracompany synergies FTW!

I agree that background shouldn't be advanced, but that has nothing to do with the HH, which lies in the "past". There's nothing wrong with replaying "historical" battles and seeing if they come out differently. That's the entire point of a little hobby known as historical wargaming, without which 40K would likely not exist. Books and codex text don't spontaneously change worldwide because my buddy and I play a game in which the loyalists escape at Istvaan. It's creating a "what-if" scenario. And that sounds fun as h*ll to me.

P.S. The HH books included plenty of xenos, including Orks and Eldar. Chaos Daemons would be fine, as would Dark Eldar.

I've only been in this hobby for a relatively short time compared to a lot of folks (5 years, in other words), but it does surprise me that GW doesn't seem to "give the people what they want" more often. I completely agree with all your points up there regarding making HH models, expansions, etc.

I play Guard, SM, and have about 1,000 points worth of Tau. If you asked me today what it would take for me to buy/ build/ paint another Marine army, I'd tell you there's nothing you could do. If you told me that GW was releasing HH-era Marine stuff however, I'd be all over it.

Why in the world GW doesn't do something for the Heresy stuff is beyond me.

bigcheese76
02-12-2009, 20:38
I think it would make the game more interesting but its ok how it is, and setting the game after the Heresy allows alot more armies to be involved and it also means there is alot more history in terms of fluff and backstories for armies. Also would the imperial armies worship the Emperor to such an extent at that time?

cairodude12
02-12-2009, 21:32
It would be kind of cool if 40k just focused on Chaos and the Imperium. Obviously the lists of the different legions would have tons of special rules but I kind of like the idea of similar armies fighting. Plus it's more two sided rather than like 15 sided like it is today, you are either on the imperium side or the chaos side, then there would be some real trash talk back and forth from the two camps. I'd be alright with throwing some random Orks and Eldar Pirates in there as well, but the focus should be on the marines both good and bad, and the imp army.

DeadlySquirrel
02-12-2009, 21:44
Id like it if they made a heresy-era game that branches off of 40k, but actually keep the 40k game as it is.

Nezmith
02-12-2009, 21:47
It would be kind of cool if 40k just focused on Chaos and the Imperium. Obviously the lists of the different legions would have tons of special rules but I kind of like the idea of similar armies fighting. Plus it's more two sided rather than like 15 sided like it is today, you are either on the imperium side or the chaos side, then there would be some real trash talk back and forth from the two camps. I'd be alright with throwing some random Orks and Eldar Pirates in there as well, but the focus should be on the marines both good and bad, and the imp army.

Everything this man said, I disagree with.

Having only two sides, reminds me of a MMORPG everyone should be familiar with. Placing everyone in the "Order" camp, and the "Destruction" camp, only tends to cause problems.

Gray Hunter
02-12-2009, 21:53
I think things are much more interesting the way they are now. More races, humanity on the brink, more intrigue - it's all great. There are literally endless stories to tell.

If you set the game during the Heresy, you'd really only have one story to tell. Yes, it's a good one, and yes, you could tell a lot of sub-stories within it, but then you're basically playing the novels. Which is fine, but we can do that on our own with the current 40k rules and some imagination.

Right now we can either play games based on the "present" or the "past" in the 40k universe, and I think that's much better for us as hobbyists.

Necro Angelo
02-12-2009, 21:58
no, it would suck. it would just be 'Space Marines 40,000'

Lordsaradain
02-12-2009, 22:01
No Tau, No Necrons, No 'Nids, No Inquisition.
Marines, IG, Maybe Eldar, maybe Orks.
Bad idea

Maybe? Orks and eldar were definetly there.

RampagingRavener
02-12-2009, 22:10
Maybe? Orks and eldar were definetly there.

They were there in the universe, but unless I'm mistaken, they didn't have a huge part to play. Orks were generally being smashed down and cleansed from world after world during the Great Crusade, and the Eldar were mostly staying out of the way. During the Heresy itself, as far as I know, the Orks just started taking back some of the worlds they'd lost, and the Eldar continued staying out of the way.

Frankly, the idea of Warhammer 40,000 being nothing but Marines vs Marines (with the Imperial Army and Adeptus Mechanicus occasionally popping up) sounds like pure hell to me.

Binky
02-12-2009, 22:11
It does seem the Heresy gets a lot of enthusiasm about it, considering it seemed to have been invented because GW could only afford to produce the same titans in both red and blue plastic, rather than two different types. ;)

Have to agree with a lot of the posters though, it's a good piece of background for the current setting, the books are, on the whole, fairly enjoyable and there's probably some fun in playing the occaisional Heresy era game\ creating a pre-heresy army etc. but on the whole, the fluff back then was nothing like as interesting as the current setting. Mainly due to the whole irony with the Emperor's plans compared to what the Imperium has become and everything that goes along with that. Lots of nice little digs at organised religion, beaurocracy and many other things as well, which I think gives 40k it's big streak of black humour.

GrimZAG
03-12-2009, 01:11
If the setting was in the Horus Heresy, GW would make the game work with whatever races it has and have a slightly different setting to the current game.

This means they would also have created some suitably awesome fluff for that background (ie, emperor taking over earth + other stories of other races) which would seem far far cooler than the current climate of the game.

How far do you want to go back?

The Lord of Banes
03-12-2009, 01:18
I think this has already been mentioned, but if you want to do the heresy, make up a crazy scenario to represent an event during the heresy and do whatever scenarios you see fit. They shouldn't change the game just so you can do that, because you can do it already. Just do it yourself.

mistrmoon
03-12-2009, 01:42
Well for starters it would be "Warhammer 30 000"

The Lord of Banes
03-12-2009, 01:46
Well for starters it would be "Warhammer 30 000"

What are you talking about? Are you responding to a post here, or are you just randomly posting?

GrimZAG
03-12-2009, 03:58
What are you talking about? Are you responding to a post here, or are you just randomly posting?

The Horus Heresy is set approximately 10,000 years before the current time of 40,000. Hence the game would be called Warhammer 30,000.

The Lord of Banes
03-12-2009, 04:29
I got that, I think the rest of us could of figured that out, so I was wondering why he was bothering to post.

GrimZAG
03-12-2009, 05:47
I got that, I think the rest of us could of figured that out, so I was wondering why he was bothering to post.

Because it's a forum... and that's what people do with their opinion.

The Orange
03-12-2009, 05:57
While a good idea Ivellis the only problem is that the HH is so Imperium-centric. Before the HH the story would be SM legion A exterminated Xenos A and IG regement A took over the planet/system. Then in the next book it's be SM legion B exterminated xenos B, etc. During the HH the story would then be SM legion A fought SM legion B, with IG thrown in, and the xenos picking their nose or something. Biased story writing set aside you have to remember that this was the time period when the Imperium was at it's prime, it was an unstoppable war machine.

meno1
03-12-2009, 07:38
Biased story writing set aside you have to remember that this was the time period when the Imperium was at it's prime, it was an unstoppable war machine.

So true, it'd kind of be like playing before the Imperium, when the Eldar ruled. All you'd play would be the Eldar (who would be the strongest) and some other xenos. All they would do is capture a planet. Fight xenos. Etc. Etc. See how boring that is?

Or it could be like playing in the future, when Tau bring all forces under it's control. Now who wants to play that?

The point I'm trying to make is that the Imperium was at it's strongest, conquering worlds left right and centre, until Chaos disrupted them. Even then, after the initial surprise of Horus' attack, the Marines still had the upper hand with more men and improving technology. I doubt anybody wants to play a game where one race is constantly winning.

UrielSynthesis
03-12-2009, 11:18
Or it could be like playing in the future, when Tau bring all forces under it's control. Now who wants to play that?

Eh, no. It's pretty much unavoidable that the Tyranids will scour the galaxy clean of organic material and move on to the next one. This is assuming that no unforseeable, massive event changes things.

And if they weren't around, it would probably be Orks.

Heck, the only thing keeping the Tau from being annihilated right now is that they haven't caused enough trouble to make the Imperium commit the resources for a full-scale extermination.

Hadafix
03-12-2009, 12:32
Like others, a HH era supplement would be cool, but it would be a naff game if that was the current scenario. There would be no BT to start with, and I am not sure that I could bring myself to paint a Yellow army, just too bright a colour.

As for historic Eldar, if the game was done during the Necron wars then that could be interesting.

My money is on the Crons to win it, Nids ignore them (thus die to them), Orks die to them and if the Void Dragon escapes thats all she wrote for the Imperium. Oh, and I cant see that the Eldar or Tau have a chance against them.

Born Again
03-12-2009, 13:51
No, no, no! 40k in the Heresy would be bad. Some races would be missing (namely Tau, Tyranids and Necrons) and others such as orks would be far less involved in things. Also the entire dynamic of the background would be changed, humanity had a better and more progressive understanding of it's tech in the Heresy, it would lose a lot of it's grimdark feel for a cleaner, more typical sci-fi flavour.



Instead of all the most interesting events taking place in the past and well, now nothing of interest happens.


What do you mean, nothing of interest happens now? A whole chunk of the galaxy is under threat from intergalactic locusts, Abaddon has virtually crippled Cadia, they've set in motion all these events in The Time of Ending since 5th edition came in. There's far more scope for interesting things now than just humanity having a civil war.

Bunnahabhain
03-12-2009, 16:05
Then you'd be using the very good pack from BoLS that does exactly this.

It would be a big step backwards for the background, which is the best part of 40k. It would lose alot of flavour and depth. Too few factions.

As a thing to dip into occasionally, it is a great idea though.