PDA

View Full Version : Are Black Knight heavy counts lists looked down upon



6th and Final Champion
18-05-2005, 15:29
A simple question I think, would a list full of knight and dire wolves be considered "beardy" or "cheesy" or just different. Im not sure how I feel about it, on the one hand Black Knights are notorious for their power, but on the other hand they cant come back like skeletons and zombies. Just curious what you all think.

Slyracoon
18-05-2005, 18:01
They are quite disliked, mainly because it's a bit of a one trick pony and those are never fun to play against. I think against an inexperienced then they're usually on the good end of a massacre, but against a skilled opponent they're very hard to win with (like all one trick ponies). Plus they're pretty common, it's one of those "themes" that require absolutely no work or input from the player and people don't particularly like that.

Still, I find a zombie horde maxed out on Necromancers a lot more annoying, but that's just me.

Arnizipal
18-05-2005, 18:17
To my shame I must admit on using an all Black Knights/wolves list. But in my defense it's the only way I can win against that blasted Cult of Ulric

*blames Bubble Ghost*

Slyracoon
18-05-2005, 18:36
Is Bubble Ghost still around? I haven't seen him on the new Portent. Anyway, back on topic. I think the reason Black Knight/Wolves armies tend to be looked down upon is that they don't really require any tactical finesse. Basically you charge headlong towards the enemy, the wolves lap round the flanks, you outnumber and autobreak. That's really all there is to it. Plus it relies solely on one element, close combat, which isn't exactly balanced and means there's not a fair contention of phases throughout the game. This leads to more boring games, and nobody likes that.

6th and Final Champion
19-05-2005, 13:39
Kinda like against Bretonnians?

6th and Final Champion
19-05-2005, 14:07
To my shame I must admit on using an all Black Knights/wolves list. But in my defense it's the only way I can win against that blasted Cult of Ulric

*blames Bubble Ghost*

You dont just "Run over" any opponent thoguh right? I mean, there SRE still challenges? Also Im curious, do you take a lord or a count, I took a lord but people told me it was a waste of points...

majortusk
19-05-2005, 17:57
the list probably wont do well vs slayers.

Arnizipal
19-05-2005, 18:29
You dont just "Run over" any opponent thoguh right? I mean, there SRE still challenges? Also Im curious, do you take a lord or a count, I took a lord but people told me it was a waste of points...
I use a Count and a Thrall and a Wight Lord. As Blood Dragon Vampires the Count and thrall have to challenge, which is often a pain. Ever tried taking on a High Priest of Ulric with the Blitzbeil? It's not pretty, let me tell you...

Don't take a Vampire Lord in anything less than a 3000 points game as he's way too expensive otherwise.

EDIT: Bubble Ghost is still around. A simple search (it's back for non-guilders now) revealed he posted just today. (http://www.portent.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2325&page=3#post35413)

6th and Final Champion
20-05-2005, 02:07
Can I see a sample of your list so I have an example to go off.

Arnizipal
20-05-2005, 08:05
I'll post one later today. I'm at work now.

Quercia
20-05-2005, 17:52
LOL Arnizipal!


Is Bubble Ghost still around? I haven't seen him on the new Portent.

W0W nice memory you got there. Out of a 35,000 members you recognise 1. Heheh :D

I think there is always a way to counter a Black Knights/Dire Wolves army. The one thing is that the opponents mostly are surprised seeing so much Fast Cavalry. For example, I think there aen't much banners and ranks.

-Quercia

Arnizipal
20-05-2005, 19:20
Right, here's the list I'm currently using. The Count goes with the Black Knights with the Banner of Doom, the Thrall with the other Black Knights and the Wight Lord with the Grave Guard with the Banner of the Barrows.

The Banner of Doom is something I added to make the list more rounded as my main opponents (next to Cult of Ulric) are Elves (High and Dark) and Dwarfs.

Blood Dragon Vampire Count @ 312 Pts
General; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Full Plate Armor; Shield; Undead
Nightmare
Ring of the Night @ [30] Pts
Master Strike @ [25] Pts
Heart Piercing @ [25] Pts

Blood Dragon Vampire Thrall @ 152 Pts
Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armor; Shield; Undead
Nightmare
Master Strike @ [25] Pts
Heart Piercing @ [25] Pts


Wight Lord @ 99 Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armor; Undead
1 Sword of the Kings @ [25] Pts
1 Enchanted Shield @ [10] Pts


5 Dire Wolves @ 60 Pts
Fast Cavalry; Undead
Doom Wolf @ [20] Pts

5 Dire Wolves @ 60 Pts
Fast Cavalry; Undead
Doom Wolf @ [20] Pts


5 Dire Wolves @ 60 Pts
Fast Cavalry; Undead
Doom Wolf @ [20] Pts


9 Black Knights @ 315 Pts
Full Command; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armor; Shield; Undead
Banner of Doom @ [50] Pts


9 Black Knights @ 315 Pts
Full Command; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armor; Shield; Undead
Screaming Banner @ [40] Pts


19 Grave Guard @ 322 Pts
Full Command; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armor; Shield; Undead
Banner of the Barrows @ [45] Pts


20 Grave Guard @ 310 Pts
Full Command; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Heavy Armor; Undead


Total Roster Cost: 1995


I know it's not exactly an all knight list, but I still think it's a bit cheesy... I min-maxed the cores to get to the specials. Only 15 models in this army don't have Killing Blow :o


EDIT:


W0W nice memory you got there. Out of a 35,000 members you recognise 1. Heheh :D

Bubble Ghost is quite well known among the regular visitors of the Fantasy Background forum. And he had a hand in creating the background (and perhaps even the rules) for the Cult of Ulric/Middenheim armylist.

6th and Final Champion
21-05-2005, 16:27
Right, here's the list I'm currently using. The Count goes with the Black Knights with the Banner of Doom, the Thrall with the other Black Knights and the Wight Lord with the Grave Guard with the Banner of the Barrows.

The Banner of Doom is something I added to make the list more rounded as my main opponents (next to Cult of Ulric) are Elves (High and Dark) and Dwarfs.

Blood Dragon Vampire Count @ 312 Pts
General; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Full Plate Armor; Shield; Undead
Nightmare
Ring of the Night @ [30] Pts
Master Strike @ [25] Pts
Heart Piercing @ [25] Pts

Blood Dragon Vampire Thrall @ 152 Pts
Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armor; Shield; Undead
Nightmare
Master Strike @ [25] Pts
Heart Piercing @ [25] Pts


Wight Lord @ 99 Pts
Hand Weapon; Heavy Armor; Undead
1 Sword of the Kings @ [25] Pts
1 Enchanted Shield @ [10] Pts


5 Dire Wolves @ 60 Pts
Fast Cavalry; Undead
Doom Wolf @ [20] Pts

5 Dire Wolves @ 60 Pts
Fast Cavalry; Undead
Doom Wolf @ [20] Pts


5 Dire Wolves @ 60 Pts
Fast Cavalry; Undead
Doom Wolf @ [20] Pts


9 Black Knights @ 315 Pts
Full Command; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armor; Shield; Undead
Banner of Doom @ [50] Pts


9 Black Knights @ 315 Pts
Full Command; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armor; Shield; Undead
Screaming Banner @ [40] Pts


19 Grave Guard @ 322 Pts
Full Command; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armor; Shield; Undead
Banner of the Barrows @ [45] Pts


20 Grave Guard @ 310 Pts
Full Command; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Heavy Armor; Undead


Total Roster Cost: 1995


I know it's not exactly an all knight list, but I still think it's a bit cheesy... I min-maxed the cores to get to the specials. Only 15 models in this army don't have Killing Blow :o


Yeah my list instead has all knights and dire wovles, a necro and a wight lord....And i also took a lord instead. Do you really need the necro since you cant add on to your units anyway? I think thats a huge drawback in this list that makes it balanced.


EDIT:

Bubble Ghost is quite well known among the regular visitors of the Fantasy Background forum. And he had a hand in creating the background (and perhaps even the rules) for the Cult of Ulric/Middenheim armylist.

Did he now? I really didnt know this. Ill have to thank him.

sulla
21-05-2005, 22:57
A simple question I think, would a list full of knight and dire wolves be considered "beardy" or "cheesy" or just different. Im not sure how I feel about it, on the one hand Black Knights are notorious for their power, but on the other hand they cant come back like skeletons and zombies. Just curious what you all think.

They won't be feared for very long. My old gaming buddy made an army of them but they were such a vulnerable army. The dogs disintegrated even if charged by light cav leaving the knights to get artilleried and baited till they finally got flank charged and disintegrated.

One or two games and your opponents will be downgrading them from 'powergamer' level to 'themed' or 'challenging'. They are hard to co-ordinate (gotta keep in the general's sphere or get left behind) and a numerically small undead army which doesn't make for an easy army.

So go for it. They are a good fun army and will look scary on the battlefield...

6th and Final Champion
21-05-2005, 23:16
Thanks I hope my friends share that outlook(purely wishful thinking on my part). I appreciate your input.

Lordmonkey
22-05-2005, 17:41
You should drop all the grave guard and buy more knight units. Typically, your initial charge will fail, and the counter-sweep will overrun your grave guard units, which are way too small anyway. BJK lists only work if your units either smash through on the charge, or twi up all enemy units to prevent flanking should the enemy hold.

Also, use the counts 80pts of items to upgrade to a Vampire Lord. A higher ws and wounds value will make him WAY more survivable than a measly 5+ ward, and you get more attacks and higher I.

Finally, If at all possible, expand the wolves to about 8 each. A few arrows will knock those small units out, rendering them useless or destroyed.

Just a thought... :p

Lordmonkey
22-05-2005, 18:20
Blood Dragon Vampire Counts List - 2000pts:

LORD/HERO: Vampire Lord (285) Full plate, shield, lance, Nightmare, Barding (27)
@312
HERO: Vampire Thrall (90) Heavy armour, shield, lance, nightmare, barding (22) Red Fury (30)
@142
HERO: Vampire Thrall (90) Heavy armour, shield, lance, nightmare, barding (22) Red Fury (30)
@142

CHARACTERS: 596pts

CORE: 9 Dire Wolves
@80
CORE: 9 Dire Wolves
@80
CORE: 10 Dire Wolves
@80
CORE: 10 Dire Wolves
@80

CORE: 380pts

SPECIAL: 12 Black Knights, Heavy Armour, Shields, Lances, Barded Nightmares (300) Standard/Champion/Musician (40)
@340
SPECIAL: 12 Black Knights, Heavy Armour, Shields, Lances, Barded Nightmares (300) Standard/Champion/Musician (40)
@340
SPECIAL: 12 Black Knights, Heavy Armour, Shields, Lances, Barded Nightmares (300) Standard/Champion/Musician (40)
@340

SPECIAL: 1020pts

TOTAL: 1996 pts

Try this one out for size. Packs a punch and doesn't succumb to shooting very easily.

Just a thought... :p

6th and Final Champion
22-05-2005, 18:55
Thats a nice solid list, mine goes as follows

Blood Dragon Vampire Lord-Magic Level 3, heart piercing, Ring of the Night, Strength of Steel, Red Fury, Great weapon, barded nightmare-459

Wight Lord-BSB, Barded nightmare, Sword of Kings, Gem of Blood, heavy armor-151

Necromancer-Lvl 2, 2 dispell scrolls(or dispell scroll and book of arkhan, nightmare-158

Dire Wolves(12)-130 X 2=260

Dire Wolves(11)-120

Black Knights(10)-Full Command, Banner of Doom-340(Lord goes with them)

Black Knights(10)-Full Command , Banner of the Barrows-335(Wight Lord with them)

Black Knights(10)-Full Command-290 X 2=580

Banshee-90

Total:2493

Im thinking about lowering the size of the dire wolf units and just having more units of them. What do you think?

Lordmonkey
24-05-2005, 18:16
Thats a nice solid list, mine goes as follows

Blood Dragon Vampire Lord-Magic Level 3, heart piercing, Ring of the Night, Strength of Steel, Red Fury, Great weapon, barded nightmare-459

Wight Lord-BSB, Barded nightmare, Sword of Kings, Gem of Blood, heavy armor-151

Necromancer-Lvl 2, 2 dispell scrolls(or dispell scroll and book of arkhan, nightmare-158

Dire Wolves(12)-130 X 2=260

Dire Wolves(11)-120

Black Knights(10)-Full Command, Banner of Doom-340(Lord goes with them)

Black Knights(10)-Full Command , Banner of the Barrows-335(Wight Lord with them)

Black Knights(10)-Full Command-290 X 2=580

Banshee-90

Total:2493

Im thinking about lowering the size of the dire wolf units and just having more units of them. What do you think?

Well, it's nice and elite, but its also illegal. You only have 2 core choices, and since the lists in the appendix arent official, your going to have to drop one or two items or knights to buy one more unit of wolves (need at least 3 core units)

**edit**

My bad, i just noticed you put "x2" next to one of the units lol. Sorry!

It's a nice list... the vampire is very powerful, but hes a lot of points so you have to be careful what you do with him. id make sure your wolves can flank when your knights charge, just to make sure they break through... ws3 isnt very impressive unless their led by a character.

never really liked going for magic in a BD army, but who knows, could pay off with enough raised troops!

6th and Final Champion
24-05-2005, 19:42
never really liked going for magic in a BD army, but who knows, could pay off with enough raised troops!
See thats what I was thinking too. I didnt really see a need for a necromancer without skeletons. I was thinking maybe just a thrall to lead another one of the units.

Lordmonkey
24-05-2005, 23:47
Mmm, well personally I like to go all out on magic or not at all (as little as is possible with VC, anyway!). And since ive gotten sick and tired of magic lately, i tend to focus on hth with my Vampire Counts.

6th and Final Champion
25-05-2005, 00:01
Ill try making a list without a mancer. Ill post it later.

6th and Final Champion
25-05-2005, 00:32
Vampire Lord-Ring of Night, Red Fury, Strength of Steel, Heart Piercing, LVL 3, Nightmare, Barding-462

Vampire Thrall-Master Strike, Heart Piercing, Heavy Armor, Shield, lance, Nightmare-152

Wight Lord-Sword of Kings, Gem of Blood, Nightmare, Shield, Heavy Armor, lance-132

Dire Wolves(9)-100 X 4=400

Black Knights(9)-Full Command, Banner of Doom-315

Black Knights(9)-Full Command, Banner of the Barrows-310

Black Knights(9)-Full Command, Screaming Banner-305

Black Knights(9)-Full Command, Banner of the Dead Legion-290

Total Points:2366 (I have NO idea what to spend the rest of the points on)

Lordmonkey
25-05-2005, 14:45
2500 eh?

Drop strength of steel and give the vampire lord a great weapon/lance. Drop heart piercing too... remember that almost all of your army already has the killing blow rule.

Drop the banner of the dead legion and the screaming banner, and bulk out the knight units - the banner of the dead legion is another knight, pts wise, but its automatically +2US instead of d6, and its an extra wound for the unit - could be useful by the time you reach a gunline!

overall, BIGGER knight units :D

Cpt. Drill
25-05-2005, 14:54
any army which is heavy on one aspect will be viewd as cheesey if it is good.... if you convert it or have a nice theme then it will halp to hide any cheese in your army!

Bubble Ghost
25-05-2005, 16:04
And he had a hand in creating the background (and perhaps even the rules) for the Cult of Ulric/Middenheim armylist.

Yeah, the whole lot, although most of the best bits were other people's ideas.

6th and Final Champion
25-05-2005, 17:25
2500 eh?

Drop strength of steel and give the vampire lord a great weapon/lance. Drop heart piercing too... remember that almost all of your army already has the killing blow rule.

Drop the banner of the dead legion and the screaming banner, and bulk out the knight units - the banner of the dead legion is another knight, pts wise, but its automatically +2US instead of d6, and its an extra wound for the unit - could be useful by the time you reach a gunline!

overall, BIGGER knight units :D

But will that one night really matter that much in the long run? I mean it'd be just as easy to kill that extra one....BUT then again you're a seasoned counts playr I am not. Ill try your advice and post another list later.

Karhedron
25-05-2005, 21:41
Plus it relies solely on one element, close combat, which isn't exactly balanced and means there's not a fair contention of phases throughout the game.
If you can design a VC army that can contest the shooting phase then I would delighted to give it a go on the battlefield. ;)

Seriously though, the movement phase will be far more interesting than typical for a VC. Also there is no need to neglect the magic phase. I know a lot of people go Blood Dragon heavy with this kind of army but there are alternatives. Taking a Necromancer or two will expand you options and allow to create additional infantry should you find yourself in need of speed bumps.

Another variation is to use Von Carsteins as their ability to allow troops 18" away from the general to march move will be very powerful in an army with such mobile troops.

Lordmonkey
26-05-2005, 01:20
Seriously though, the movement phase will be far more interesting than typical for a VC. Also there is no need to neglect the magic phase. I know a lot of people go Blood Dragon heavy with this kind of army but there are alternatives. Taking a Necromancer or two will expand you options and allow to create additional infantry should you find yourself in need of speed bumps.

Another variation is to use Von Carsteins as their ability to allow troops 18" away from the general to march move will be very powerful in an army with such mobile troops.

Wise words! Would be interesting to use necros... provided they can be supplied with some form of protection before the game beings (notice no infantry to hide in?) and dont get me started on wizards in cavalry regiments. Thats just plain old silly. :p



BUT then again you're a seasoned counts playr I am not


Bah, i'm no more seasoned than a british summer.

It totally depends though, if you can increase the size of the regiment by a few models then the banner will actually survive to make it into combat... remember, 9 wounds is not much to an elf bolt thrower. Elves... damn their eyes!

6th and Final Champion
26-05-2005, 12:58
Yeah, elves do that. If Ghouls could scout I'd take those for warmachine hunting. But for now ill just have to try to get my hounds up there ASAP.