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jy2
02-12-2009, 18:17
Nowadays, I'm seeing more and more people use squads in sizes of 5 (or the minimum) as opposed to full 10-man squads. Maybe part of it is due to transport capacities, but mainly they do it for tactical reasons.

I myself often use 5-man squads:

5x Grey Knights w/2x incinerators in Grey Knight Land Raiders

5x Inquisitorial Storm Troopers w/2x meltas in rhinos

5x Space Marine scouts in Land Speeder Storms

5x Space Marine combat squads

5x Long Fangs


Often I see the following:

5x Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents

5x Bike squads

5x Terminators

5x Celestians

5x Nobs/Meganobs


I'm thinking this is because the new trend is mech-spam. Maximize the transports, minimize the squads.

What do you guys think?

SPYDER68
02-12-2009, 18:23
Nowadays, I'm seeing more and more people use squads in sizes of 5 (or the minimum) as opposed to full 10-man squads. Maybe part of it is due to transport capacities, but mainly they do it for tactical reasons.

I myself often use 5-man squads:

5x Grey Knights w/2x incinerators in Grey Knight Land Raiders

5x Inquisitorial Storm Troopers w/2x meltas in rhinos

5x Space Marine scouts in Land Speeder Storms

5x Space Marine combat squads

5x Long Fangs


Often I see the following:

5x Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents

5x Bike squads

5x Terminators

5x Celestians

5x Nobs/Meganobs


I'm thinking this is because the new trend is mech-spam. Maximize the transports, minimize the squads.

What do you guys think?

5x Stormtroopers in Rhino's = Suicide anti tank with duel meltas.. your not gonna suicide a full squad.

5 scouts in Land speeder storm is its max capacity i believe.

Combat squads is 10 man to start.. and its optional.

5x long fangs... Its their max squad size..

5 Terminators.. its the basic squad size without making a unit cost 400-500 pts.

5x Fire dragons is once again suicide melta squad.. if it cost to much you gain nothing from their suicide.

5 Celestians i believe is to fit inside an Immolater.


Each has their reason..

Its usually their max squad size..

For a transport..

Suicide a 10man squad to kill a tank is dumb and costly

or some units get very expensive very fast, for example terminators and bikes.

Vedar
02-12-2009, 18:28
Not for me. Some exceptions like Fire dragons and termicide units where having more then 6 is a waste and a liability.

Most of the time I want 10 strong units to put some volume fire down and be able to take some hits. I can pretty much ignore 5 of most things unless there is a powerfist or melta weapon in there. If there is a PF or Melta weapon in there it is pretty east to kill off a small sqaud.

I try to run all my
CSM sqauds 10+
Dire Avengers 10+
Horrors 10+
Bloodletters10+

jy2
02-12-2009, 18:42
5x Stormtroopers in Rhino's = Suicide anti tank with duel meltas.. your not gonna suicide a full squad.

Correct. Suicide units should always be minimized.



5 scouts in Land speeder storm is its max capacity i believe.


But even without the LSS, I still see scouts in squad sizes of 5. I believe this is because they are given camos and told to sit on an objective to protect it.



5x long fangs... Its their max squad size..


Actually, max size is 6.



5 Terminators.. its the basic squad size without making a unit cost 400-500 pts.

So there is a strategic reason for them...to lower cost so that you can get more of other units in your army.



5 Celestians i believe is to fit inside an Immolater.


Yes, but it could also easily by 9x w/Cannoness inside rhino as well.



Each has their reason..

Its usually their max squad size..

For a transport..

Suicide a 10man squad to kill a tank is dumb and costly

or some units get very expensive very fast, for example terminators and bikes.

Exactly. There IS a reason for them to use 5-man squads, whether it's any of the reasons that you mentioned above. It fits into the overall scheme of their army and strategy. Seems like this is becoming a trend in a lot of lists (I didn't say all).

jy2
02-12-2009, 18:50
Not for me. Some exceptions like Fire dragons and termicide units where having more then 6 is a waste and a liability.

Most of the time I want 10 strong units to put some volume fire down and be able to take some hits. I can pretty much ignore 5 of most things unless there is a powerfist or melta weapon in there. If there is a PF or Melta weapon in there it is pretty east to kill off a small sqaud.

I try to run all my
CSM sqauds 10+
Dire Avengers 10+
Horrors 10+
Bloodletters10+

I agree that 10+ squads still have there uses. Min squads usually apply to units in transports. Thus, daemons, nids and necrons are usually not affected when someone makes a list (unless the dude wants to put 3 monos and a c'tan in his necron army).

But it seems like the trend is happening more to mech lists than any other ones.

Nehemiah
02-12-2009, 18:58
Yes, but it could also easily by 9x w/Cannoness inside rhino as well.

But the point is to get an Immolator because it is a good assault tank. Its max capacity is actually 6 but it is best to leave that extra spot open for an Connoness or Palatine. They also give a faith point so having five is one of the cheapest ways to get faith.

mightymconeshot
02-12-2009, 18:58
for nids i play smaller sized then full broods. this allows you to get into cover and protect yourself.
for space marines i always take max squad sizes. it helps when you can get 40 plus 3+ saves on the board.

druchii
02-12-2009, 19:05
Nowadays, I'm seeing more and more people use squads in sizes of 5 (or the minimum) as opposed to full 10-man squads. Maybe part of it is due to transport capacities, but mainly they do it for tactical reasons.

I myself often use 5-man squads:

5x Grey Knights w/2x incinerators in Grey Knight Land Raiders

5x Inquisitorial Storm Troopers w/2x meltas in rhinos

5x Space Marine scouts in Land Speeder Storms

5x Space Marine combat squads

5x Long Fangs


Often I see the following:

5x Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents

5x Bike squads

5x Terminators

5x Celestians

5x Nobs/Meganobs


I'm thinking this is because the new trend is mech-spam. Maximize the transports, minimize the squads.

What do you guys think?


I think the squads you've listed are exceptions to the rule, not the norm.

Either your squads are used to blow up a tank, and give away relatively few points in return (melta troopers, Fire Dragons), are made a specific size to fit inside a transport (the 5 terminators in a land raider) or are boxed that way (5 terminators, 5 long fangs, 5 scouts) 5 bikes is also the minimum you can make a Troops squad in a space marine army. Or the unit quickly becomes cost prohibitive (5 nobs, 5 terminators, etc.)

I usually see squads of 5+ running around, typically max size. Especially if they're useful-10 Dire avengers, 10 guardians with a weapon platform, 10 DE warriors with dark lances, 10+ (or sacred number) demon squads 10 man Grey hunters in a rhino sans characer. 9 grey hunters+WG in a rhino/DP. 12-30 ork boy mobs. 10-15 loota mobs. Etc. Etc.

I think the 5 man squads just stick out more in your mind because they're actually a bit more rare.

d

Bunnahabhain
02-12-2009, 19:09
No, 5 is not the new 10.

Some units have good reasons to be run at near minimum size, ie fire dragons, to fit in transports, but they're quite rare.

But for most armies, avoidable multiple small units are a bad plan. They're fragile, and easy kill points. Suicide units are far less common than they once were.


Personally, the only minimum sized units I use are Vehicles. I don't see the need to run more than 1 Russ, Vendetta, Basilisk, Hellhound etc in a squadron very often. Just like 10 terminators, it's expensive overkill.

Most mech heavy armies use them to deliver the contents- Marines( all), Eldar, most mech Orks, mech sisters. It's only really Guard who use transports as gunships, so the tranport is more important than the contents.....

Bloodknight
02-12-2009, 19:12
10 DE warriors with dark lances,

That's a min sized unit, though.

I like small units of Plague Marines since I get the feeling that they don't gain that much from having more bodies. They're shooters, not assaulters, and they can have two special weapons at 5 models already.

Corpse
02-12-2009, 19:19
Marines have Combat squads and understandably make units smaller for a sergeant+special weapon to advance in a rhino and keep the other half behind to shoot the big gun and stay scoring near an objective. Or take a squad of 10, split it and ride half in a razorback.

Chaos has plague marines that can maintain the classic min/max appeal.

Lots of units only have 5 while maintaining a transport option. Either by max squad size (Like IG command squads), or can only carry 5 (terminators in certain land raiders, or the unit is just 5 like blood angels).

Either way, there is a side reason to most and its not just player preference. As said, a unit of 5+HQ in a razorback/immolator is a popular choice. Or a unit of 5+HQ inside a falcon.

IcedAnimals
02-12-2009, 19:33
I use 10 strong sisters, and 7 strong seraphim. However I do tend to use 5 strong suicide squads in an immolator/chimera. Immolator vehicle size strongly limits the size of anything you want to put in it and they are great vehicles.

bocaj
02-12-2009, 20:19
Well i usually use a 10 man squad because for the sake of making my numbers add up easily (cba doing 16x7 or summit like that) also for bloodletters and demonettes its the number that in the box and its also a good number that can take a bit of damage but still be able to opperate. well i had a 10 man squad of bloodletters and still took out a space marrine captain after losind 7 men then there still enough to take down 3 termies with a lord of change.
With 5 man squads its probbaly because you get 5 men in a box or its the minimum no. in a squad. I do use a 5 man squad of horrors cos i only hav 5 atm

Abaddonshand
02-12-2009, 20:39
When the OP says he uses 5 man combat squads of space marines: I assume you are referring to the action of splitting a 10 man tactical squad using the combat squads special rule, rather than starting with just 5 marines.

Use 5 marines for a troop choice is a complete waste under the current Codex: UM, it can only be made efficient under Codex: DA/BA, as these allow for special weapons in 5 man squads.

Epicenter
02-12-2009, 20:58
Nowadays, I'm seeing more and more people use squads in sizes of 5 (or the minimum) as opposed to full 10-man squads. Maybe part of it is due to transport capacities, but mainly they do it for tactical reasons.


Wait, this is new? ;)

I could have sworn there used to be something about "5 man las/plas" which was standard for Space Marines that was rife all through 3rd-4th edition.

jy2
02-12-2009, 22:41
Wait, this is new? ;)

I could have sworn there used to be something about "5 man las/plas" which was standard for Space Marines that was rife all through 3rd-4th edition.

That's true. 4th ed. marines were great because you could cheaply spam 6 squads of 5 marines, each with a heavy weapon and special weapon. You would then use the points saved to get more hard hitting units like terminators or devastators. How I missed those space marines.

Epicenter
02-12-2009, 23:31
More seriously, I think you're seeing a return of minimum sized troops units again because:

GW: In 5th edition, only Troops can claim objectives!

Players: Wow, that changes a lot!

GW: However, with a handful of exceptions, any non-Troops unit can contest the objective, nullifying the claim.

Players early on: We'll need to get tons of troops to get as many objectives as possible!

More Far-Seeing Players: I'll just use whatever units contest your stuff or wipe it out because most big Troops units (especially Space Marines, less so Orks) are very expensive and have lousy firepower for their points. Meanwhile, I'll baby a few tiny Troops choices onto some objective and win by 1 objective. Eh, otherwise I'll just deal with a draw.

Players these days: Those guys are right. I'm just going to stock up on powerful HQ, Elites, FA, and HS again and just baby my tiny Troops choices.

Bunnahabhain
03-12-2009, 00:06
Epicentre,

Valid for some armies, not nearly so for those with good, killy, resilient useful troops- I'm looking at the underpriced boyz here as prime example....

GrimZAG
03-12-2009, 00:59
Is '5' is the new '10'?

It is not, as 5 < 10

TheDarkDuke
03-12-2009, 06:08
5x Stormtroopers in Rhino's = Suicide anti tank with duel meltas.. your not gonna suicide a full squad.

5 scouts in Land speeder storm is its max capacity i believe.

Combat squads is 10 man to start.. and its optional.

5x long fangs... Its their max squad size..

5 Terminators.. its the basic squad size without making a unit cost 400-500 pts.

5x Fire dragons is once again suicide melta squad.. if it cost to much you gain nothing from their suicide.

5 Celestians i believe is to fit inside an Immolater.


Each has their reason..

Its usually their max squad size..

For a transport..

Suicide a 10man squad to kill a tank is dumb and costly

or some units get very expensive very fast, for example terminators and bikes.

I agree with these statements.

I will add, could another reason be these are for the vast majority that you listed sold as a box with 5 models, making it a more affordable option to be fielding a unit of 5 easier in terms of quickness to build/paint and easier on the wallet?

You made me go over my armies to see what units I actually field as only 5. I could find only 5 units I do this with:
Black Templar Command Squad
Black Templar Terminator Squad
SM Command Squad
SM Terminator Squad
IG Rough Rider Squad

I have a Black Templar, CSM Nurgle, Necron, Ork, IG and SM armies. I took a look at my brothers normal army lists and can only find 5 man units in two of his armies, those being Eldar and SM again the SM is command squad and terminators. Eldar are however an army that is built off of smaller squads so I don't feel you can really use them in the conversation.

Then looking at all the 5 man squads I and my brother use it comes down to a combination of max squad limits (command squads), points cost (terminators) and actual cost $$ (terminators/converted rough riders). Looking at some of the units I don't field that have the option from anywhere between 5-15, they are all truly geared to be 5 man squads for the most part as they tend to be very specialized/more costly per model troops, and don't gain from larger units (Burna Boyz, Lootas, Terminators being some examples I can think of). Add in the use of some units like sniper scouts, you don't want big units of 10 as they have no where to actually properly use their sniper rifles to affect. Combat squads simply do not count as 9.99/10 people are purchasing the 10 man squad to get the special/heavy weapon and based simply off of mission objective using a special rule to split them. Bikers/Calvary/Jet Bikes for the most part have always tended to be 3-6 man units so nothing has changed in that category. So for the most part, I think they have simply added some more flexibility in army compositions but they really haven't changed much from the last edition in term of unit size options.

jy2
03-12-2009, 14:39
I'm not saying 5-man squads will replace 10-man squads. It will never be able to do that. Too many armies out there have min squad sizes of at leasts 10 (guards, battle sisters, orks, etc.) and lots of armies rely on max-sized squads (the green tide, any horde armies). And GW's marketing ploy has us all buying 10-man marine/CSM squads to get the heavy/special weapons.

What I'm saying is I'm seeing a shift in playstyle for many players, especially those that go mech, to min-squads for the following reasons:

1) increase the number of scoring units (ty Epicenter)

2) increase the number of transports (they're more resilient than you think, esp. if you have lots of them).

3) increase the number of "hammer" units - those units that do the real damage in the Elite, FA and Heavy slots (ty again Epicenter)

4) for more resiliency. A 10-man MEQ squad will die just as easily to charging Howling Banshees as a 5-man MEQ squad, but at least with the 5-man squad, there's 5 more of those squads out there compared to just 2 for the 10-man squad.

Granted, 5-man squads give more kill points, but some of the most successful armies I see out there are mech-spam armies that overload their opponents with so many units that they just cannot cope. They're very balanced and utilizes a lot of redundancy.

Take a couple of army lists for example:

1500 Daemonhunters (mine)
Grey Knight Brother Captain - Incinerator
5x PAGK's - 2x Incinerators
5x PAGK's - 2x Incinerators
5x IST's - 2x flamers (GKBC here, in LRC)
5x IST's - 2x meltas, Rhinos w/EA, smokes
5x IST's - 2x meltas, Rhinos w/smokes
GKLR - EA
GKLR - EA
GKLRC - Smokes


2000 Mechdar (I played against)
Eldrad (or Farseer)
5x Fire Dragons - Wave Serpent w/TL-Brightlance
5x Fire Dragons - Wave Serpent w/TL-Brightlance
5x Fire Dragons - Wave Serpent w/TL-Brightlance
10x DA - Exarch, Bladestorm, Wave Serpent w/TL-Brightlance
10x DA - Exarch, Bladestorm, Wave Serpent w/TL-Brightlance
5x DA - Wave Serpent w/TL-Brightlance
Fire Prism
Fire Prism
Fire Prism

2000 Immolater-spam (saw here on Warseer)
Canoness - Eviscerator, BoSL
5x Celestians - 2 Meltaguns, Immolator
5x Celestians - 2 Meltaguns, Immolator
5x Celestians - 2 Meltaguns, Immolator
5x Dominions - VSS, 4 Flamers, Immolator
5x Dominions - VSS, 4 Flamers, Immolator
5x Dominions - VSS, 4 Flamers, Immolator
10x Battle Sisters - VSS, BoSL, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Rhino
10x Battle Sisters - VSS, BoSL, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Rhino
10x Battle Sisters - VSS, BoSL, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Rhino
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

TheDarkDuke
04-12-2009, 02:15
Eldar are geared for 5 man squads in general. They are a given to do so and I don't think much of a valid example of a more 5 man squad play style. Mass transports are nothing new.

Just looking at the DH and WH lists you have posted the predominate aspect in the WH list is not 5 man units its Immolator/flame/melta spam and is a tough list but also really there only options to be competitive. The DH list is again not a 5 man themed/play style list, its a 3 LR list but worse off then normal marines.

As you have mentioned yes, they are great in scoring games but KP these lists just get destroyed. Any competent general avoids the hard targets and focus fires the small 5 man squads with or without transport.

With that said I think the angle of your idea is a bit off centre. Its not so much the reliance/style changing to 5 man squads. Its a change to more Mech lists. The result is more people are looking for not just transport ability to get troops from point a to point b, but a firing base/platform to be useful in the process of getting from point a to b, but useful afterwards as well. With this style the main limitation on every army other than IG have a reduced transport capacity, leaving people no choice but to take some smaller squads. The 5 man squad is simply a product of this trend, not the trend itself IMO.

animush
04-12-2009, 02:22
i didn't read all the other posts, but 2 units of 5, compared with 1 unit of 10. Both can't be shot in the same turn by the same unit, and both count as scoring (assuming troops).

2 avantages I see.

Perfect Organism
04-12-2009, 13:29
Surely six man squads were the classic 4th edition set-up? The only armies which tended to use ten man squads were the ones where that was the minimum squad size, like orks (and I usually field orks in mobs of 12 or 20 now).

jy2
05-12-2009, 03:59
With that said I think the angle of your idea is a bit off centre. Its not so much the reliance/style changing to 5 man squads. Its a change to more Mech lists. The result is more people are looking for not just transport ability to get troops from point a to point b, but a firing base/platform to be useful in the process of getting from point a to b, but useful afterwards as well. With this style the main limitation on every army other than IG have a reduced transport capacity, leaving people no choice but to take some smaller squads. The 5 man squad is simply a product of this trend, not the trend itself IMO.


Your point is spot-on. Players are not using 5-man squads because they are better. Rather, they are using them because overall it makes some (I didn't say all) lists more effective - which is primarily mech-spam. Their most effective units are their vehicles whether used as fire support or firing/delivery platforms. It is precisely because of this trend that people are starting to use 5-man squads.

The other reasons to use 5-man squads are either as suicide units or to minimize the troops while maximizing on the "hammer" units. An example of such is:


1500 Space Marines (mine)
Shrike
Librarian w/Terminator + SS
10x TH/SS terminators
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
Land Speeder Storm - MM
Land Speeder Storm - MM
Land Speeder Storm - MM
Vindicator
Vindicator
Vindicator

nightgant98c
06-12-2009, 19:10
Regardless of reason, I love it when opponents field small squads. It makes it alot easier to wipe them out.

jy2
06-12-2009, 19:33
The thing is, they've got a big scary hammer unit just waiting for you to take the bait and go after the small target. Unless the general is really an incompetent boob, small units normally should not go unsupported.

march10k
06-12-2009, 21:54
Well...deathwing comes in exactly one squad size: 5. The power-armored DA that I field always go around in 10 man squads...sometimes, I'll combat-squad them to allow several heavy weapons halves to hang around together while the sergeant and special weapon (unless it's a plasma gun, in which case it goes with the heavy!) halves run around together, as well. Does that count as using five man squads? None of my SOB go in 5s, the smallest is the 6 seraphim, and they'll be 8 as soon as I get around to painting two more. Everything else is 9 (if character attached and transport is desired) or 10.

Really, the only good reason to go with min squads is if you're taking them as tokens to meet minimum FOC requirements (which went away, mostly, with 5th edition) or if you're spamming scoring units (6x5 instead of 3x10?)

nightgant98c
10-12-2009, 15:37
The thing is, they've got a big scary hammer unit just waiting for you to take the bait and go after the small target. Unless the general is really an incompetent boob, small units normally should not go unsupported.

There are quite a few incompetent boobs playing 40k these days, but there is sometimes a big nasty to go along with them. However, There is rarely a downside to destroying a squad, and I'm confident that I can deal with both threats.

SPYDER68
10-12-2009, 16:09
except in kill points.. you play sac a squad vs that shrike list for example..

keep the termies busy / slow.. Kill the scouts..speeders and vindicators and thats game over.. easy 9 killpoints.

Smaller squads = Worse off in Kill points games.. which is 1/3 of the missions if you only use rulebook missions.

Along with.. if you have 2 special weapons in a 5man squad (fists..pw's..meltas..flamers etc) they will start having to make saves on those weapons alot faster then on a larger squad.

If i got to choose squad size.. and still get normal weapons i want.. i would use 7-8man squads.

Purge the Heretic
10-12-2009, 16:23
The immy spam witchhunter list, uses 5-6 strong squads mostly, they stay hunkered in their vehicles, and easily pass the test to go 3++ if it becomes necessary.

SPYDER68
10-12-2009, 16:36
The immy spam witchhunter list, uses 5-6 strong squads mostly, they stay hunkered in their vehicles, and easily pass the test to go 3++ if it becomes necessary.

While i haft to admit the immy list does look good. They max it with having small squad sizes mainly by their Faith Points.. and only have 1 special weapon per squad for wound allocation.

What im curious of is.. How well will it do vs an army with alot of ranged firepower ? and in a Killpoint game.

Either way.. it looks fun to play or at least try.

jy2
12-12-2009, 03:33
except in kill points.. you play sac a squad vs that shrike list for example..

keep the termies busy / slow.. Kill the scouts..speeders and vindicators and thats game over.. easy 9 killpoints.

Smaller squads = Worse off in Kill points games.. which is 1/3 of the missions if you only use rulebook missions.

Along with.. if you have 2 special weapons in a 5man squad (fists..pw's..meltas..flamers etc) they will start having to make saves on those weapons alot faster then on a larger squad.

If i got to choose squad size.. and still get normal weapons i want.. i would use 7-8man squads.

Actually that scout squad is 10 and 5, which I normally combat squad to 5, 5 and 5 and put in land speeders. They usually start off in reserves in KP games so there'll be no easy targets. Meanwhile, the termies would normally infiltrate with Shrike (unless DoW), get a 2nd turn charge and usually destroy anything in its path in about 1 turn. Then again, it's not a very balanced list as it relies on a couple of hammer units, and I have problems in Dawn of War scenarios as I can't deploy them.



While i haft to admit the immy list does look good. They max it with having small squad sizes mainly by their Faith Points.. and only have 1 special weapon per squad for wound allocation.

What im curious of is.. How well will it do vs an army with alot of ranged firepower ? and in a Killpoint game.

Either way.. it looks fun to play or at least try.

I think it's very good. It's actually not easy to wreck or even immobilize one of those rhinos/immos. A competent general (and whoever thought up this army must be competent) would deploy them in a way such so that there are 2 or even 3 rows of vehicles. First turn mad 12" dash and front vehicles pop smoke while also providing cover for vehicles behind them. Next turn vehicles behind zip 12" and pop smoke. The once-front vehicles now get behind them for cover.

I'd love to play against such a list.