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Cloudscape_online
18-05-2005, 16:48
How many people remember Overwatch. How many of those people remember how broken it was? Yeah, I know.

I've been mulling over a way to bring back overwatch without it being too powerful. Here goes...

Overwatch

Any unit with Initiative 4 or more, may set up Overwatch at the beginning of their turn. That unit may not move, shoot or assault in their turn. In an opponents turn they may open fire against an enemy unit at the beginning of the assault phase. Normal shooting restrictions apply. If the unit becomes engaged in close combat, fails a leadership test or is forced to move, the Overwatch is broken.

What do you think / how would it be abused?

Bruen
18-05-2005, 16:57
So basicaly you want a new toy for Marines?

Why restrict it to I4 and above?

Cloudscape_online
18-05-2005, 17:41
I play Imperial Guard. Most of the time, I won't benefit from the rule.

marines, chaos marines, some eldar, necrons and big Tyranids would benefit.

Overwatch is a tactical device to help commanders who want to hold defensive positions.

Antaeus
18-05-2005, 18:20
How would Necrons benefit, out of interest? They tend to have I2 or so as far as I can see.

Overall, it looks like an interesting idea, just knock off the Initiative 4 thing I reckon. If you're going to put a restriction on, why not make it Leadership representing how well-trained and disciplined the unit is? A limit of Leadership 8 would do the trick I think.

Cloudscape_online
18-05-2005, 18:36
Yeah, I thought of it being a leadership based thing too, but there are loads of units that can have characters to boost the Leadership.

I thought of Initiative because it's the speed of reflexes and relative understanding to a tactical situation. Both fit really well with how it could work. I know Initiative isn't used for much outside Close Combat, and I thought it would be appropriate for it to do something extra too.

Maybe it could be limited to rapid fire weapons only? Defensive spray as the enemy rushes your lines? Hmm...

Bruen
18-05-2005, 19:37
How about this:

If you do not do anything in your turn then any unit may go on overwatch.
During the opponents turn the unit may try to fire by taking an unmodified Ld test. If they pass then they may fire any rapid fire or assault weapons. If they fail then they may do nothing.

This makes it a risky option, you will not know if its going to work but it also rewards better trained and led armies.

Cloudscape_online
18-05-2005, 21:29
That would work too. Actually, that's really good. Make ld test during one of the phases, if passed they get their shots during that phase. If they fail, they can try in the next phase. Once they've fired, they cannot make any more tests or fire any more shots that turn. Heavy weapons should be allowed to fire though.


Alternatively, the Ld test should be made at the beginning of your turn when attempting to set up the OW. If failed, the squad cannot move or assault that turn.
If the test is passed, the shots would be made at the beginning of the opponents assault phase. The reason for this is it gives the opponent time to move out of the way, open fire upon the OW squad or move to assault the OW squad.

Cloudscape_online
18-05-2005, 21:48
Overwatch.

At the beginning of your turn, any unit you control may make a Leadership test. If failed, the squad cannot move or assault that turn. If the test is passed, the squad does not move, shoot or assault in their turn.

At the beginning of the opponents assault phase they may open fire against an enemy unit. Normal shooting restrictions apply. If the Overwatch unit becomes engaged in close combat, fails a leadership test or is forced to move, the Overwatch is broken.

How about that?

Or it could be an initiative test, instead of Ld. Roll under the unit's I at the beginning of your turn to setup OW.

Bruen
18-05-2005, 22:19
I don't think that the test should be made until you try and take an action, that way your opponent could decide to risk it or play it safe.

If you know in advance what is going to happen then it takes some of the suspense out of it. It should be a risk going on overwatch or else every shooty army will do it all the time.

I also think that you should roll once and thats it, being able to roll once per phase would make the test practicaly impossible to fail.

Its the same thing with heavy weapons, if you allow this then everyone will do it like in 2nd edition and the whole game becomes static.

Cloudscape_online
19-05-2005, 00:08
The risk element is being taken by the player using the overwatch. By the time the OW unit has gotten to the opponents assault phase, they could have lost sight of enemy units, the enemy may be out of range or they may have gotten shot to bits, and that's even before the assault. Add into that, Ld tests for 25% casualties, pinning tests, tank-shock or having a unit consolidate into close combat. OW is more of a risk to the unit using it, if that unit employs it badly.

The advantage to using Overwatch would be that you could briefly hold a strongpoint before becoming annhilated, or deter an opponen from assaulting head on.

Basically, this version of OW isn't too powerful and will reward tactical and strategic commanders.

The thing that made 2nd ed OW too powerful was that the squad could shoot at a group of infantry, but the squads' heavy weapon could be fired at a separate unit. Heavy weapons shouldn't be penalised for a unit using OW.

Bruen
19-05-2005, 08:15
I disagree, with your method OW is an automatic choice for any shooty unit that does not have a target

Its a no brainer, and thats a bad thing IMHO.

McMullet
19-05-2005, 11:46
I agree that heavy weapons should not fire. Overwatch may be fun, but I don't like the idea of squads being able to prevent anyone getting anywhere near them with this method. In most cases, RF, assualt and pistol weapons should be enough to act as a tactical deterrent, without the need for heavy weapons which will result in all opponents who try to assualt being obliterated.

Also, there should be a Ld test for coming under fire, just like 2nd ed, if you are shot at - perhaps if you take at least one wound, perhaps even if you take none, although that could be abused (characters taking a single pop at a unit with a laspistol etc.), you take a Ld test. If you fail, you lose overwatch. Just so that the opposition is not left helpless by the rule and it doesn't have to dominate the game.

Cloudscape_online
19-05-2005, 17:37
OW is an automatic choice for any shooty unit that does not have a target.

Not really. Ok, lets say that I have tyranid guants and you have marines. You can't see any of my units this turn, so you set up OW. In my turn am I going to move into LOS immediately, or am I going to sneak two or three broods around the scenery, until the last minute, and the leap from cover fleet of foot and then force you to shoot one unit before being overwhelmed.

OW can be outflanked and pincered really easy.

I think too many people have bad memories of 2nd edition OW. The rules have changed, 1 and 1/2 times already. This OW cannot operate in the same way as the old OW, though it can function in a similar fashion.

Also the possible restriction of Rapid fire only weapons as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts would solve quite a few issues about troops that are able to use OW.

Bruen
19-05-2005, 19:03
Not really. Ok, lets say that I have tyranid guants and you have marines. You can't see any of my units this turn, so you set up OW.

You are missing my point.

In this situation why would the Marine player not go on Overwatch? There is no reason why not because there is no downside.

I would like for the Marine player to have to choose between doing something in his turn, like moving, and going on Overwatch. This means that the Overwatch choice cannot be too good.

What I don't want is an automatic choice that everyone always takes. We already have enough of these.

Cloudscape_online
19-05-2005, 20:42
Being mobile in 4th edition in necessary. Staying stationary is practically death. Make the OW so that only Rapid fire weapons can be used on overwatch. Ok so marines get a bit of an extra function, but so does every unit that has Rapid fire weaponry. I think the only races that wouldn't be capable of OW would be orks and Tyranids. Then again, they don't know the concept of defence anyway, so it would fit in fluff-wise as well.

I think that OW in 4th edition should be a defense tactic, and in most games of 40K players cannot afford to play defensively unless they are trying to hold an objective.

How do you think OW should work if it were to make a comeback.

Bruen
19-05-2005, 22:07
Like I said before:

If you do not do anything in your turn then any unit may go on overwatch.
During the opponents turn the unit may try to fire by taking an unmodified Ld test. If they pass then they may fire any rapid fire or assault weapons. If they fail then they may do nothing.

He Who Laughs
20-05-2005, 00:56
Firstly, let me say that all the discussion so far on OW seems on the most part, well thought out, and with certain restrictions, may even be feasible.

However, for those that played 2nd ed, let me put an idea in your collective heads. Say, you've long since broken up with your ex-girlfriend/boyfriend. It's been over a year since you last saw them - and at this point, you've forgotten all the bad, messed up things that caused you to break up with them in the first place. You even entertain the thought of meeting up with them again for coffee/lunch/grox burger etc. As chance would have it, you meet them in town by accident one day. And then suddenly, all the f$%ked up reasons why you broke up with them come flooding back - and you remember just exactly why you hate them so much, and wish they'd disappear off the face of the Earth...

Now think of how this idea relates to raising overwatch back from the dead... ;)

Cloudscape_online
20-05-2005, 12:35
The thing is that when you meet that ex, for the first few moments you think it is them until you realise that it's someone who looks very much like that ex, but when you talk to them you realise that the accent is different and they have had a much different upbringing to that of your ex. Hell, you might even like this person.

The thing to really keep in mind is that (thankfully) 4th edition isn't anything like 2nd ed at all, which by definition means that the new OW cannot operate in the same cruel and unforgiving fashion as it did before.

I like Bruens idea, but it should be All or nothing when it comes to the shots made. Either you fail the leadership and make no shots, or you pass and make all shooting attacks. Not being able to fire a heavy weapon at all even though you've taken a pretty risky option is a massive deterrent. I spoke to the people at my GW last night and they said that it'd work but unless they could use H weapons, they'd never use it. the risk is too great if you're not going to get a chance to utilise a heavy weapon, like a heavy bolter.

I just had a great Idea. Like vehicles, only defensive weapons can be used on OW. that is, weapons of S 6 or less. How about it?

Cloudscape_online
20-05-2005, 13:09
Overwatch

At the beginning of your turn, any of your units with defensive weapons you control may make a Leadership test, in order to set up Overwatch. If failed, the squad cannot move or assault that turn, only shoot. If the test is passed, the squad does not move, shoot or assault in their turn, instead at the beginning of the opponents assault phase they may open fire with S6 or less weapons against an enemy unit. Normal shooting restrictions apply. If the Overwatch unit becomes engaged in close combat, fails a leadership test or is forced to move, the Overwatch is broken.

How about that for a slice of sunday gold?