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Epaminondas
05-12-2009, 02:51
Now, when you all read that thread title I bet everyone thought "Well of course not, it's a crazy world of magic stuff" but my #1 gripe with the Warhammer Fantasy World is that every country lasts way too long. Not too mention that basically every race is it's own country in the lore (IMO, Dark Elves, High Elves, and Forest Elves have basically become different races) It can be difficult to be immersed and interested in a world with a poor background. I love this hobby though, so I want to encourage discussion about where it's going.

The Empire is probably the best example. It has lasted for 2500 some years. This makes NO sense. Games Workshop wants us to equate the Empire with the Holy Roman Empire. Let's compare the two.

Holy Roman Empire lasted (from the very earliest point you can start it from) from 800 AD after the crowning of Charlemagne by Pope Leo III and ended in 1805 AD when Napoleon had dismantled it. It lasted 1005 years. Note though that many centuries before this the Holy Roman Empire had ceased to become a true Empire, and was but a mere shell of it self. It began it's long slow slide into decay after the death of Frederick II of Swabia in 1250, a mere 450 years after its founding. Compare this to the Empire, which is going strong after 2522 years with no real breaks, despite having enemies ready to destroy her on all sides, and the odd full scale invasion every few decades by orcs or what have you.

I think this is awful, because either the Games Workshop writers are stupid, or just REALLY lazy. Why are they scared to change anything? I think I would be a tremendous amount of fun and much more realistic to take control of Armies fighting over control of the burnt out remnants of the Empire. You could be land grabbing Bretonnians, vengeful Chaos, Dwarfs trying to stand for whoever their friends are, or the myriad petty dukes and princelings fighting for the Imperial thrown.

Bretonnia is almost just as bad. It's real equivalent, France, was founded in 844 by Charles the Bald after the Treaty of Verdun. The Ancien Regime (for our purposes I think it is pointless to draw any parallel between the Republic and Bretonnia) ended in 1793, making 949 years. Bretonnia has lasted 1544 years, and without any of the hitches real France had.

Additionally, somehow the balance of power has stayed basically the same in the old worlds since Sigmar has been around, without any new powers ever emerging, or old ones truly collapsing.

I don't mean this as a rant, but I think GW should work hard to prevent their world from stagnating and becoming uninteresting. It just strikes me as lazy to nonsensically let these countries last so long, especially if they make this world so similar to Earth. I understand they are different places, but I think some of the basic rules of statehood, and that would make the World and our games consequently much more interesting. A dynamic and changing world would lead to much more fun games, and overall experience.

Does the community agree?

w3rm
05-12-2009, 03:09
Warhammer isn't real life. Don't think about it to much and you will enjoy it much more.

Condottiere
05-12-2009, 03:15
The Empire has been subject to outside pressures that may actually keep the whole thing from imploding when internal pressures cause insurrections and rebellions.

The populace may also find there are no viable alternatives, which may also keep in check most of the nobility's tendency to attempt to remain autonomous from central rule from becoming an attempt at secession.

Epaminondas
05-12-2009, 03:20
The Empire has been subject to outside pressures that may actually keep the whole thing from imploding when internal pressures cause insurrections and rebellions.

The populace may also find there are no viable alternatives, which may also keep in check most of the nobility's tendency to attempt to remain autonomous from central rule from becoming an attempt at secession.

But often things don't work that like that. It was outside pressure (french and indian war) that was the first spark that caused the colonies to rebel against Great Britain. Humans don't always rationally like "let's stick with the Emperor cause then were less screwed". There's always a few power hungry nobles. My main point is countries just plain don't last that long.

Toads77
05-12-2009, 03:25
I'm no history buff but what I notice in real life is countries get conquered, control of the country changes hands, the peasants are either still working in the fields or get replaced by others which the conquers brought with them. It seems its all about land, and who has the best of it.

In warhammer its all about war, and destroying your enemies, no army will conquer an area, settle, and defend it. All they do is invade until they are defeated, withdraw, and the people who where in their path return or if they were killed, replaced.

However there is an example in the warhammer world where an empire has indeed crumbled and is not only being invaded, but also being settled where they once where. Is is of course, the dwarven empire. Many of their dwarf holds have been conquered by night goblins and skaven who now occupy them. Soon they will be extinct :) (good riddance)

But that's just my two cents.

Falkman
05-12-2009, 03:31
Look at it from a commercial standpoint:
What if they would break up the Empire and discontinue the Empire army, do you think that would make people happy or angry?
On paper a developing world is great, but it is really hard to make it work when you have loads of customers who have invested (and want to keep investing) tons of money in all the armies available.
It is just not feasible to break up or destroy nations in the Warhammer world.
I agree that it's kinda dull, but the closest we're ever going to get to "cool" things happening is stuff like Storm of Chaos.

Alathir
05-12-2009, 03:59
Yeah, I think you're thinking about it too much. Besides, when you say the Empire has existed for 2500+ years and that it makes no sense, keep in mind that the Empire has gone through a myriad of changes from corrupt emperors to the banning of magic to the time of the three emperors. What I'm saying is, the Empire has not always existed as we know it today, thus the reason for its long existence.

Ramius4
05-12-2009, 04:11
Wiping out the countries/ races of the Warhammer world would really put a damper on sales....

And in case you hadn't noticed, GW likes money ;-)

Horus38
05-12-2009, 04:32
Empires that have been destroyed:
* Sky giants
* Tomb Kings civilization
* Various fluff references (ancient Kavzar for example)

Empires that have been severely weakened/in decline:
* Dwarves
* Lizardmen (:cries:)
* High Elves to a degree

So in counterpoint to your argument that empires last too long there are examples of empires being destroyed, or on their way. In terms of comparison to real world events/history: DON'T BOTHER. And that stems from the simple fact that our history is made of exclusively human to human interaction, which the WHFB is not.

Condottiere
05-12-2009, 04:54
But often things don't work that like that. It was outside pressure (french and indian war) that was the first spark that caused the colonies to rebel against Great Britain. Humans don't always rationally like "let's stick with the Emperor cause then were less screwed". There's always a few power hungry nobles. My main point is countries just plain don't last that long.I wouldn't attempt to find an analogue with the loss of the former colony of Virginia to events in the Empire, besides the fact that an extended Line of Communication and extensive widely spread apart military commitments contributed to it, not to mention the lack of a neighbouring military threat dampening the enthusiasm for paying taxes.

Tenken
05-12-2009, 04:56
It's a stagnant world, I don't think anyone would argue that. Very few things change when new things come out, they usually just flesh out more things rather than progress things. Occasionally we get new stuff, like mazdumundis reading of the lost plaques in the new lizardmen book, but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

If you want a game with a story that is progressing play warmachine. Every book that comes out advances a greater story.

Not saying either is better, just different. I have fun with both games but I appreciate the dynamic story of the Iron Kingdoms alot more than the stagnant fluff of warhammer.

Dark_Knight
05-12-2009, 04:58
"The warhammer world makes no sense."

Fantasy worlds can do that to you.

devolutionary
05-12-2009, 05:06
Yeah, I always knew there was something not quite right about magic and fishmen :eek:

sabre4190
05-12-2009, 05:47
The Empire list has stylistic comparisons to the Holy Roman empire. They arn't trying to make the Empire "the Holy Roman empire with a twist". They tried to make their own nation but with a twist from the real world. It's a stylistic comparison, not a historical one. They arn't throwing the Holy Roman Empire into a fantasy world and seeing what happens.

And yeah, there are nations in our world that have lasted for long periods of time. How long has England been a nation? Sure, there have been changes, but there has been a stable government in the country for quite some time. They too, have been surrounded by enemies and rival powers, and for a while only expanded their influence.

And again, this is fantasy. In Lord of the Rings, kingdoms have existed for millenium. That's just a fantasy thing. It

Vermin-thing
05-12-2009, 05:49
I think they can advanced the story without butchering the playable races. The best way to do this would be to expand the army books on look towards the world. Say for example 8th Ed. Empire could become a shattered shell of what it once was. The current Elector count is assassinated, and Kislav is blamed as a scapegoat. It was really the rat-mens doing, but as the Skaven don't exist how could that be possible?

They really need to stir up the pot a bit. With all the wars going on it seems like nothing major is happening at all. :( Fishmen should invade Lustria en mass. :)

They could put out more war campaign books to represent major periods in Warhammer history. Say for example a mass rise of Skaven into the Empire. It could includ alternate lists, and rules for the major sieges, as well as some scenarios to deal with the different parts of the war timeline. We just need some good campaign books to advance the story along without changing the army books to much. These could be filler releases related to the next army book, so we don't have a compete lull. Periods of nothing is bad for GW. Of course no book should go without new models. :D

Gork or Possibly Mork
05-12-2009, 05:51
Well first I would like to say expecting WHF history to be exactly like real history is foolish.

The nations, empires etc. of WHF are only loosely based on real world models.

However many of them have fallen or changed signifigantly such as the Sky Titans, Dwarves, Lizardmen, Nehekara etc. with a few being pretty much wiped out such as Kislev and Norsca ( Overrun by Chaos ) and Tilia ( Overun by Skaven ) or broken apart such as Elves.

If your looking for real empires in history that lasted over 2000 yrs. there is only China but there are others over the 1000 yr. mark most of which were not empires but close enough such as Kingdom of Kush (1400+ yrs.), Venetian Republic( 1100 yrs.) , Byzantine ( 1100+yrs), so is it that much of a stretch for fantasy to have some.

So in conclusion GW would have to be pretty brave to advance the story so much that they wipe out whole armies/nations in a way that those armies no longer function the same or become obsolete.

Do you really think people would be happy if Empire was overrun by Chaos and completely destroyed and Daemons destroyed the last of the Lizardmen empire but not before the Lizardmen destroyed the Darkelves and the High Elves and wood Elves decided to get back together and take back thier former lands in the old world thus wiping out brettonia and while were at it Orcs over running Dwarves and Ogre Kingdoms becoming Chaos Dwarf slaves and Skaven nukes Cathay and Sylvania and Tombkings invade and conquer Araby.

That would sure clear the release schedule but it wouldn't make WHF more interesting at all:eyebrows:

Dai-Mongar
05-12-2009, 06:54
tl;dr
Learn to suspend belief.

enyoss
05-12-2009, 07:12
I like the stability, and I think it's necessary if each race ia to have a well established identity. Otherwise you'd have reams and reams of cluttered background detailing every change of government and statehood every 10-100 years or so... for 4000 years.

As for progressing the background, I'd find it really annoying if GW moved the timeline on by much, if at all. I was supremely irritated when they killed off Marius Leitdorf :mad:.

I can't go through that kind of pain again :cries:.

xragg
05-12-2009, 07:47
You mentioned the Kingdom of Kush and not Egypt? Egypt may not have been a wide spread empire, but it has been around in one form or another for about 5000 years. Like stated though, its a bit foolhardy comparing our world dominated by humans whose lifespans are ~70years in developed countries with a world populated with elves, dwarves, lizards whose lifespans are easily centuries if not immortal. If you must, think of it like dog years. 100 years on our world is roughly 500 years on a fantasy world. The humans of warhammer may still have similar lifespans as we do, but they are in constant contact and influenced by cultures with much longer lifespans.

Jind_Singh
05-12-2009, 08:45
besides, the humans under the Empire are bound together by a mutal ground - sheer, basic survial!!!
the Empire in its current state of glory has not got the man power to effectivly repel its attackers!
if the Empire fails all men know that they will be wiped out -theres no reason for them to abandon the Empire! Last time this happend there were too many contenders for the Throne (Great war against Chaos) and they nearly goot boot-stomped!

snurl
05-12-2009, 08:51
Come to think of it the real world doesn't make too much sense either.

AdarII
05-12-2009, 09:16
I think the lack of progression is more of a problem. The Warhammer world is currently at year 2500ish. Despite 2500 years of progression and the brilliant infrastructure in Nuln/Altdorf they have a society roughly 400 years behind ours.

If GW humans had been as innovative as European society, they would be fireing space lasers at the Chaos Gate from orbit by now. :cool:

Jedi152
05-12-2009, 09:22
Yes, if anything the main problem is the lack of advancement. Bretonnia is still using the same weapons and methods of war as they did 1500 years ago, bar the invention of the trebuchet.

Condottiere
05-12-2009, 09:53
Come to think of it the real world doesn't make too much sense either.
It does, as long as you factor in the human aspect.

R Man
05-12-2009, 10:25
The Empire has had several dynasties and undergone several revolutions and spent time without rulers so the Empire of today is not the same as the Empire of the past. Many other states in very similar situations, such as the Dwarves who are not really an empire much anymore and the Elves too, which have undergone schism and divide as well as changes of government etc. and these races are much longer lived than humans.

_Ashdil_
05-12-2009, 12:35
The Empire as it is today has, as others have said, not allways been the same. It has been both bigger, smaller diveded. And have parts of it deflecting. And to have such changes over 2500 years and still consists of the same people is far from unheard of. You can look at a number of different real world nations and see similar changes. Look at Scandinavia, people have lived here for over 10,000 years! Kingdoms of different types have existed for over 2500 years! First of as smaller divided cheifdoms, and then up towards a grand coaliton of all the countries (Kalmarunionen) Then breaking apart and so on etc... but it is roughly the same people living in theese countries, more people have come, but none have been wiped out! All the different groups have blended into one. So haveing a fantasy nation surviving that long with the same kind of ruling is not that far from the real world.

And Egypt is as far as I know still a nation, China aswell, Italy, Greece, Iran... Thats real history for you. ;)

AussieSocks
05-12-2009, 12:47
I would make a power grab if i was a popular politician/ prince in an empire run by a tyrant.

I would NOT make a power grab if i was a popular politician/ prince in an empire surrounded by ratmen, orcs, chaos, trolls, beastmen, other assorted mutants, 85 different types of undead and pegasus riding Frenchmen.

It's called a "put your head down and stfu in order to not get genocided by bad guys" decision

Oh and those damn trisky lizardmen across the pond. Them tricksy lizardmen and their soccer and Tequila.

Epaminondas
05-12-2009, 13:33
The Empire as it is today has, as others have said, not allways been the same. It has been both bigger, smaller diveded. And have parts of it deflecting. And to have such changes over 2500 years and still consists of the same people is far from unheard of. You can look at a number of different real world nations and see similar changes. Look at Scandinavia, people have lived here for over 10,000 years! Kingdoms of different types have existed for over 2500 years! First of as smaller divided cheifdoms, and then up towards a grand coaliton of all the countries (Kalmarunionen) Then breaking apart and so on etc... but it is roughly the same people living in theese countries, more people have come, but none have been wiped out! All the different groups have blended into one. So haveing a fantasy nation surviving that long with the same kind of ruling is not that far from the real world.

And Egypt is as far as I know still a nation, China aswell, Italy, Greece, Iran... Thats real history for you. ;)

Scandanavia has undergone vaster changes over it's roughly 1500 years of existence as different than anything the empire ever had. It's been unified (Kalmar Union, which you did mention. But it was very short, and was a royal union not really a true political one) Norway has been owned by both Sweden or Denmark as late as 1907, and now they are all their own separate countries in every way. The Empire has survived 1000 years longer being one country with a tremendously larger amount of diversity.

Egypt, from it's unification in 2800 BC was conquered full multiple times before it hit the 2522 year mark, but it is a valid counter example.
Italy was formed in 1860....
Greece yes has existed as a culture for a very long time, but sort of became one with the Romans for a 900 years, and then the Ottomans conquered them for ~400 years.
Iran is another good example of long-lived nations, yet it has also been conquered many times, most recently by the Mongols 750 years ago.

Another argument a lot of you have posted is that it doesn't work from a financial perspective. I disagree. People could continue playing with all of their old empire miniatures. They probably wouldn't even need new army books. The same soldiers used by the main empire would be the exact same the new petty states would use in their civil war.

_Ashdil_
05-12-2009, 13:39
My example with Italy, was that it still has Rome as it's capital, as Rome did, for a long time. My point was that very few countries and groups of people are ever made extinct to such a length that you can be sure to say, they are simply not there anymore. Like Carthage and Celts.

The main problem with Warhammer is that technology has not advanced as far as it should have done perhaps. But they have taken some tech taht we dont have to new hights, steam horses etc (the horror!)

But it is a fantasy world, if I want to play hi tech armies I would play 40k.

Onisuzume
05-12-2009, 13:42
I think the lack of progression is more of a problem. The Warhammer world is currently at year 2500ish. Despite 2500 years of progression and the brilliant infrastructure in Nuln/Altdorf they have a society roughly 400 years behind ours.
Well, China didn't have that much progression for a couple of hundred years either. Also progression comes from a desire to change how things currently are.

Take the australian aboriginals before australia was conquered - they've been living like that for thousands of years. If they wanted to, they probably could've build an empire like egypt or some such. Yet they didn't.

Oh and those damn trisky lizardmen across the pond. Them tricksy lizardmen and their soccer and Tequila.
Soccer? Surely you meant Blood Bowl (lizzies predicted its invention).

Epaminondas
05-12-2009, 13:46
My example with Italy, was that it still has Rome as it's capital, as Rome did, for a long time. My point was that very few countries and groups of people are ever made extinct to such a length that you can be sure to say, they are simply not there anymore. Like Carthage and Celts.

The main problem with Warhammer is that technology has not advanced as far as it should have done perhaps. But they have taken some tech taht we dont have to new hights, steam horses etc (the horror!)

But it is a fantasy world, if I want to play hi tech armies I would play 40k.

I agree. They should move back the warhammer world ~200 years so we still have some very primitive gun powder, but nothing very reliable.
Your right. Rome lasted ~756 B.C.-~300 A.D. as the capital of the Roman Empire

Condottiere
05-12-2009, 13:59
The Byzantines might argue that New Rome continued an uninterrupted reign of Roman imperium until the fifteenth century AD.

Sceleris82
05-12-2009, 14:05
Its a setting in a fantasy world, so draggin a curtain of realword over it doesnt make sense.

theunwantedbeing
05-12-2009, 14:18
So warhammer makes no sense because it isnt a carbon copy of this worlds events?
Erm...okay.

I guess that's a valid point to make.

Epaminondas
05-12-2009, 14:51
So warhammer makes no sense because it isnt a carbon copy of this worlds events?
Erm...okay.

I guess that's a valid point to make.

Good use of a strawman AND sarcasm in the same post! Cool!

And yes, you could say Rome lasted from the founding in 753 B.C. to the fall of Constantinople in 1453 A.D. 2206 years. Pretty long I will admit. But still the longest lived concurrent "state" in the history of Earth is 16 years younger than the empire.

puppetmaster24
05-12-2009, 15:17
If GW humans had been as innovative as European society, they would be fireing space lasers at the Chaos Gate from orbit by now. :cool:

so that is just 40k then.

BIG improvement ;)

Lord Malorne
05-12-2009, 15:27
OP: Yeah, as far as warhammer goes don't think about it too much, it will quickly start to suck.

Lord Malorneer24

zak
05-12-2009, 15:27
The decision not to change/advance the background is a financial one. I for one want to play a united Empire army, not a state one in a civil war. I have paid a lot of money and put a lot of time in painting the army from different states. The current background has been set and really doesn't need to change. The background is there to assist the game and does it well. Trying to compare the Warhammer world to the real world is never going to work as the real world doesn't have magic, elves, orcs etc.

TheSil
05-12-2009, 15:36
sorry to say that but I really don't think your point makes any sense at all...

have you ever read the history of the empire? it has been deunified and reunified more than once, sometimes not having an emperor and once even having three!
Marienburg has quit the empire, one of its countries has been overrun by Greenskins and never recovered again, another has been turned into an undead kingdom ruled by Vampire Counts
To say nothing has changed in 2000 years is really not an accurate observatoin

besides I simply cannot see why the world should not make sense because some civilisations seem to have a longer lifespan than a few examples you can spin together from human civilisations surrounded by nothing but humans in a completely different world

there are a lot of things that might qualify for "this doesn't make sense" in the warhammer world, but not enough political change in human kingdoms is simply not one of them

as mentioned before the empire has changed multiple times since sigmars founding, and it is in a completely different world surrounded by monsters, so what should the humans do?
should they say "dude, the empire sucks, maybe we should join the Ratmen or Greenskins next year. Maybe Che Gorevara from the woods kills off the greedy emperor, so that the Beastmen revolution can finally take over our kingdom, will be much better then for sure."
different races are not really compatible and therefore killing the king and ruling the peasants is out of the question for most situations. Its kill them all or fall back, which only causes all the more resolve and unification among the survivors

where it is even slightly possible (Vampires in Sylvania) it has already happened and everything is fine...



and on a sidenote: making races obsolete by completely destroying them would be totally nuts
also advancing the timeline would be a catastrophy. Warhammer is set in the past, with a rich enough history to replay ancient battles and the like.
It has lots of "sandbox" areas like the border princes, where you can have greedy dukes and all kinds of beats bash their heads in and change power every few minutes

the rest of the world has to be stable or otherwise after a very short time... guess what... the warhammer world wouldn't make sense any more ;)

Lanparth
05-12-2009, 16:04
2500 years is too long for an Empire?

You realize that the Roman Empire, from Republic, to the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, lasted from 509 BC to 1453.

2,000 years?

Or have you heard of China? Which has had running forms of government over its lands for thousands of years as well.

Its not entirely impossible friend.

Rogue
05-12-2009, 16:43
I have a very simple solution for you. Make up your own damn Fantasy world, and make something that makes sense to you for the Background for the troops that suspiciously look like the Empire. This is not to make light of your point, but who said that you "MUST" use the same background or even color scheme for your army as one of the states for your empire army, or for that matter any army that GW makes?

While I have no problem having a culture of the Empire lasting for over 2500 years, (that is how I see it, since they did have several centuries where there was no empire but rather one Elector count and his flunkies against another Elector Count and his) I really do not like the background of many things including High/Wood/Dark Elf scism, how the empire developed, the Tomb Kings being so esoteric, to name just a very few. This is the reason why I really do like the old style of Mighty Empires from back in 1990 where you could make a world onto your own with out the backdrop of the Warhammer World interfering with your gaming. With the way that you set up the world, you could do just about anything on your board and call your army anything that you like. There was even an option to have independant settlements and states that you would need to contend with, like a Non Playing Character in a Role Playing Game. (Dand D or computer, etc.)

With this in mind I would really encourage that you look into the old Mighty Empires booklet and develop your own world. They did have a PDF available on GW's website for us to play with the old rules. I will see if I can find it and link it here. I get the impression that you would like it.

Sceleris82
05-12-2009, 16:57
I would also like to add that just because we havent had any empires on planet earth that lasted more than 2000 years, then it doesnt mean its impossible.

The human reality is not a universial reality.

Lanparth
05-12-2009, 17:01
And did I mention 2,000 years is a stupidly long time too? Did I?

500 years more, really, isn't a big deal.

Epaminondas
05-12-2009, 17:41
2500 years is too long for an Empire?

You realize that the Roman Empire, from Republic, to the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, lasted from 509 BC to 1453.

2,000 years?

Or have you heard of China? Which has had running forms of government over its lands for thousands of years as well.

Its not entirely impossible friend.

I had posted the thing about the Roman Empire's life span before. Not only did it make a full switch in location over those 2000 years, it is quite likely the most long lived proper nation ever.

Have I heard of China? Hmmm. China? What's that??

From the formation of the Qin Empire 221 B.C., you could perhaps say it has lasted to the present day. If you ignore that time it was conquered/occupied for 150 years by the Mongols, and how the current Communist state really doesn't have any sort of the king of continuity the Empire has.

Oh and thank you Rogue, that is an interesting suggestion. Obviously it would be preferable for GW to develop a more realistic game world, but the opportunity to create your own fantasy world is very alluring.

Sceleris82
05-12-2009, 18:14
Lanparth i was talking to the OP =P

devolutionary
05-12-2009, 20:05
Or have you heard of China? Which has had running forms of government over its lands for thousands of years as well.

So has Britain, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Iran, etc. China as an entity is a relatively recent invention though, far more recent than most people think. There have been various imperial dynasties holding various areas of land, but they have been so maleable and shifting in definition it's extremely difficult to track it. It's not one great ancient empire, but one great ancient piece of land under the control of a rather fantastic PR bureau.

The biggest issue with the Warhammer world and it's geography is that it applies nationality to a medieval/fantasy context. Nationality is not as old as dirt, it's really very recent. The idea of owing loyalty to a collective government body and the land upon which it resides as a sovereign entity is not something that we've always had, and certainly not something that existed in the time period that Warhammer is primarily trying to mimic.

Epaminondas
05-12-2009, 20:12
So has Britain, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Iran, etc. China as an entity is a relatively recent invention though, far more recent than most people think. There have been various imperial dynasties holding various areas of land, but they have been so maleable and shifting in definition it's extremely difficult to track it. It's not one great ancient empire, but one great ancient piece of land under the control of a rather fantastic PR bureau.

The biggest issue with the Warhammer world and it's geography is that it applies nationality to a medieval/fantasy context. Nationality is not as old as dirt, it's really very recent. The idea of owing loyalty to a collective government body and the land upon which it resides as a sovereign entity is not something that we've always had, and certainly not something that existed in the time period that Warhammer is primarily trying to mimic.
Oh my god. Devolutionary you just summed up so many of my ideas in a single post. Thank you!

Grimstonefire
05-12-2009, 20:14
I think the OP has made it too simplistic.

The huge difference between the warhammer world and our own IS the different races. Countries exist under different races as much as they are allowed to be because of the race characteristics.

For instance:

Humans other than chaos have many countries because men crave power too much and are bound by traditions where they are civilised.

Chaos humans do not recognise countries, but they do have tribal lands that do expand and shrink and destroy each other. Same with orcs & goblins.

Dwarfs are hugely bound by tradition, but even they have effectively made two 'countries' (though unofficially).

High Elves, Lizardmen, Wood Elves have no reasons to want to expand. But they cannot so easily be destroyed either.

Beasts, TK, VC, skaven, daemons and DE would dearly love to be able to expand and destroy other nations, but individually they are not capable of doing this.

Ogres I'm guessing fall somewhere between these; they are content simply to survive, but would attack another country if needed?

If all the nations were one race they would probably divide the world according to their race characteristics.

The thing I think is a real shame in warhammer is that they do not mention the races/ nations that existed in places prior to the current inhabitants. These are the nations that have expanded and been destroyed that the OP is referring to.

In my Chaos Dwarf fluff I have written I actually point to there being not only one ancient race in the dark lands before the Chaos Dwarfs, but two (each getting wiped out the same way before the next one, leaving the chaos dwarfs with something to worry about...).

Lordsaradain
05-12-2009, 20:16
Does the community agree?

I for one do not agree. Warhammer is a world of fantasy, and naturally it is unrealistic. That's the whole point.

Tastyfish
05-12-2009, 20:17
Wasn't Sigmar's tribe taught metal work by the dwarfs as well, implying that the Unberogens were no further than bronze age tribes. Iron age to Renaissance in 2500 years seems somewhat reasonable.

Hrokka `Eadsplitter
05-12-2009, 20:25
Sorry for saying this, but since GW discontinued DoW they could erase estalia and tilea and make a "landgrab"-campaign there...

R Man
05-12-2009, 20:41
Have I heard of China? Hmmm. China? What's that??

From the formation of the Qin Empire 221 B.C., you could perhaps say it has lasted to the present day. If you ignore that time it was conquered/occupied for 150 years by the Mongols, and how the current Communist state really doesn't have any sort of the king of continuity the Empire has.

You mean appart from all the boarder shifts, rebellions, times with out leaders and times with too many leaders.


Wasn't Sigmar's tribe taught metal work by the dwarfs as well, implying that the Unberogens were no further than bronze age tribes. Iron age to Renaissance in 2500 years seems somewhat reasonable.

I didn't realize that history was on a schedule. And who says that the modern day warhammer world is equal in time to our modern day world. It could be warhammer 5-600 years ago, like in the early Renaissance which is what all the puffy clothes seem to indicate.

Tastyfish
05-12-2009, 20:52
You mean appart from all the boarder shifts, rebellions, times with out leaders and times with too many leaders.
Are we talking the Empire or China here?




I didn't realize that history was on a schedule. And who says that the modern day warhammer world is equal in time to our modern day world. It could be warhammer 5-600 years ago, like in the early Renaissance which is what all the puffy clothes seem to indicate.
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here - but basically we've seen that certain developments will lead to certain other ones (think of the Civilisation tech tree). I was just pointing out that part of the problem for thinking that the Empire has been around too long (like the static 40K Imperium going 10,000 years with only minimal change) could also be to overestimating what the Empire was like at the beginning.

The original point is that the Empire has lasted longer than is reasonable for an Empire of that size and development given what we know tends to happen in the history we've observed - the counter argument being that the Empire is closer to 'Europe', with the method of Governing, the seat of Government, the number of independant states making it up (including the time of X Emperor's when there wasn't a unified Empire for several hundred years) and the technology possessed by it changing drastically over time.

Rogue
05-12-2009, 20:52
Oh and thank you Rogue, that is an interesting suggestion. Obviously it would be preferable for GW to develop a more realistic game world, but the opportunity to create your own fantasy world is very alluring.

Your welcome, and while preferable, I would not hold my breath on GW making anything that is anywhere near realistic. Doing your own world would proabably be better because like your child, its yours and flawless. Take a look at the PDF in the following link.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=cat190003&aId=1400005

This was what I was referring to in my original post. I saw another edition that was done privately where there were various additions that I do like but were more complicated in mechanics. You could do things like develop your own characters starting from champion on up (say goodbye to those gay special characters even) and more simpler items that were added over time from White Dwarf because they were terrain or race specific (what a suprise, I know). This looks like the link here:

http://www.mindspring.com/~jloasrah/mesetext.htm

Since all of the rules are there you dont really need a Game Master but it is still recommended. General's Compendium may also help you out as well if you can find one. Campaigns like these dont really need to have a lot of creativity to make it interesting and original, you just need to have the correct motif (instead of a German motif for Empire, why not Latin, or Gondorina from the LOTR, for example) for some of the races played and it will never look at all like you were playing in the "Warhammer World." I believe that this PDF file also has a name generator in the back which can help out for peoples names of course, but from that you may also figure out name for landmarks for example using that name generator. The Dwarf Books of the 6th and 4th edition had language articles on this, so I would look there for some inspiration, among other army books, as well as fantasy novels. Remember, just because humans live near a mountain side, doesent mean that you have to have it called by a Human name.

Epaminondas
05-12-2009, 20:53
You mean appart from all the boarder shifts, rebellions, times with out leaders and times with too many leaders.



I didn't realize that history was on a schedule. And who says that the modern day warhammer world is equal in time to our modern day world. It could be warhammer 5-600 years ago, like in the early Renaissance which is what all the puffy clothes seem to indicate.
Marienburg and the like is a step in the right direction...But having the same basic borders/government/religion is sort of a stretch for any nation as large as the empire.

Jiggy
05-12-2009, 21:00
The only stupid thing is the size of the empire.I mean look at the world map and compare it to the eastern kingdoms or the southlands.Largest empire of mankind you say?BS!

EmperorNorton
05-12-2009, 21:07
Warhammer is a world of fantasy, and naturally it is unrealistic. That's the whole point.

Not at all.
Fantasy, as fiction in general, draws its realism from being consistent within itself.
Magic, dragons or whatever are not inherently unrealistic, just because they do not exist in our world. Fictional worlds set their own parameters, which can allow anything.
Hence basing the judgement about the Warhammer world making sense or not solely on the comparison with our world is erroneous.
Judging from what we know about the history of the Warhammer world, though, I would have to agree that it is highly unlikely for the Empire to have existed for as long as it has.

EvC
05-12-2009, 21:11
I have to go back and echo TheSil's post which you seemed to ignore completely- much like the entire history of the Empire. Ever read it..?

For one, consider the political status: it's not one country, ruled by one dude. It's a collection of about a dozen countries/ city states with their own Elector Counts that choose the overall leader. The Empire has fought many, many civil wars- when there hasn't been some supreme evil to deal with, they've often devolved quickly into fighting with each other. I think the Empire has technically spent more time in civil war with itself than it has as one unified force- it takes one hell of a statesmen to convince the rest of his brothers to stop being asses to each other! From the Three Emperors, to the secession of Marienburg, to Marius Leitdorf invading the bleeding Moot, the empire has been anything but static and unchanging in 2500 years. The plot of "Iron Company" sees an army sent to deal with an upstart Count as well, although I have yet to read it.

So, borders: changed hugely over the centuries, from internal strife to external. Government: changed hugely over the centuries, with the "current" government the ideal. The Empire is in a really sorry state but it's still good enough to be described as a Golden Age: the Elector Counts aren't killing each other! Religion: well it's a massive cult of personality around Sigmar, but that's not to say that it's been constant and the same. I can't remember what book it is was I read, but it was noted how Sigmar was barely being invoked or worshipped at that time (Although the events of the book made people remember their Lord and Saviour). Anything else to clear up? Well, technology has been mentioned, and I think it is a bit of a shame that it's been so stagnant. The Sigmar books were quite disheartening- the amount of scientific progress in those books - often the result of one of Sigmar's drinking buddies deciding to have a stab at trying something new - is ridiculous. By the end of the first book they've gone from primitive club-thumpers and charioteers to fully-armoured Knights of the White Wolf on master-bred warhorses. Ironically obsolete in the current game due to a quirk in the rules but never mind. Then there was Tilean mercs with crossbows and pikes... sounded so out of place (whereas handgunners in the Lahmian army and airships in Khemri? It all felt so right!). And then after that period? Well, err, nothing for 2000 years, then blackpowder and Steam Tanks. Great.

EmperorNorton
05-12-2009, 21:23
Even more ridiculous than the scientific progress is the population explosion in the Sigmar books. Somehow the population seems to triple every five years.

Epaminondas
05-12-2009, 21:39
I have to go back and echo TheSil's post which you seemed to ignore completely- much like the entire history of the Empire. Ever read it..?

For one, consider the political status: it's not one country, ruled by one dude. It's a collection of about a dozen countries/ city states with their own Elector Counts that choose the overall leader. The Empire has fought many, many civil wars- when there hasn't been some supreme evil to deal with, they've often devolved quickly into fighting with each other. I think the Empire has technically spent more time in civil war with itself than it has as one unified force- it takes one hell of a statesmen to convince the rest of his brothers to stop being asses to each other! From the Three Emperors, to the secession of Marienburg, to Marius Leitdorf invading the bleeding Moot, the empire has been anything but static and unchanging in 2500 years. The plot of "Iron Company" sees an army sent to deal with an upstart Count as well, although I have yet to read it.

So, borders: changed hugely over the centuries, from internal strife to external. Government: changed hugely over the centuries, with the "current" government the ideal. The Empire is in a really sorry state but it's still good enough to be described as a Golden Age: the Elector Counts aren't killing each other! Religion: well it's a massive cult of personality around Sigmar, but that's not to say that it's been constant and the same. I can't remember what book it is was I read, but it was noted how Sigmar was barely being invoked or worshipped at that time (Although the events of the book made people remember their Lord and Saviour). Anything else to clear up? Well, technology has been mentioned, and I think it is a bit of a shame that it's been so stagnant. The Sigmar books were quite disheartening- the amount of scientific progress in those books - often the result of one of Sigmar's drinking buddies deciding to have a stab at trying something new - is ridiculous. By the end of the first book they've gone from primitive club-thumpers and charioteers to fully-armoured Knights of the White Wolf on master-bred warhorses. Ironically obsolete in the current game due to a quirk in the rules but never mind. Then there was Tilean mercs with crossbows and pikes... sounded so out of place (whereas handgunners in the Lahmian army and airships in Khemri? It all felt so right!). And then after that period? Well, err, nothing for 2000 years, then blackpowder and Steam Tanks. Great.
I don't think I intentionally ignored anything, but as you seem to sumrise his points quite well, so I'll simply respond to yours.
Well unfortunately (fortunately?) I've never read the full history of the empire in book form extensively.
Ok, 1.) Well you seem to say the Empire is not one country, contrary to appearances and is in fact a dozen small ones. This would seem to label it as naught but a mere confederacy? I'm pretty sure Karl Franz would be pissed off if you call him a chairman. It does seem kind of silly though, with a nation(confederacy?) constantly in dire strife to always come back together again. Confedecaries and elective monarchies of this sort just don't have a very long life span. The Holy Roman Emperor was a joke by the 16th century. Yet this is very, very interesting to me regardless. I simply games workshop would do a better job of representing this seemingly dynamic organization better with their in-game rules/army books.
2.) Technology is a glaring issue in the Warhammer World. When reliable black powder/steam technology comes out, dudes running around with axes don't tend too last long. Yet this is what the customers want, so Games Workshop can't eliminate them. They really should scale back technological advancement for all races except Dwarfs.

R Man
05-12-2009, 22:00
Are we talking the Empire or China here?

The Empire.


I'm pretty sure Karl Franz would be pissed off if you call him a chairman.

Does it matter if he's pissed of or not if the statement is true?


2.) Technology is a glaring issue in the Warhammer World. When reliable black powder/steam technology comes out, dudes running around with axes don't tend too last long. Yet this is what the customers want, so Games Workshop can't eliminate them. They really should scale back technological advancement for all races except Dwarfs.

Who says that our year 2009 is equivalent to their year 2522 which is the point I was trying to make earlier. It could equal our year 1400, in which case the Warhammer world is probably more advanced than our own. Our own technological development was the result of a series of events that hinge around the Industrial revolution, which was started the modern age. If it weren't for the invention (maybe re-invention) and application of steam by an clever Englishman then we might still be stuck in the Malthusian Cycles.

Candleshoes
05-12-2009, 22:47
If you can believe the walking skeleton musician blowing the horn can break a tied combat, you can believe that the warhammer world can function like a well loved and oiled skaven doomwheel.

Think about it.

Leogun_91
05-12-2009, 22:53
But often things don't work that like that. It was outside pressure (french and indian war) that was the first spark that caused the colonies to rebel against Great Britain. Humans don't always rationally like "let's stick with the Emperor cause then were less screwed". There's always a few power hungry nobles. My main point is countries just plain don't last that long.And you'r main fault is that you think of the empire the wrong way, it is kind of a union between lands (each province is pretty much a land in it's own right) and looking at it that way there have been much change. Drakwald (a full worthy province) fell, Sylvania has gone through many changes in rulership. The richest port of the land Marienburg bought itself independence. Civilwars have ensured about who would be the emperor. Most often the people are drawn back to the empire reign again (could the fact that their main god considers this to be the most important thing there is have something to do with it?) probobly beacouse it works and that there are more urgent threats than rivalling nobles.

Brettonia does not hold the samre ammount of changes however, but there to the country is very important in religion and seeing prof of the ladys power in the form of "paragon avatars of good", "blessings of protection" and "magic wielding damsels".

Dwarfs are easy to explain. Most consider upholding of tradition more important than survival so that explains why no changes are made in how they control their realm. They are also divided into three different realms (the grey mountains, the worlds edge mountains and the norse holds).

Elfs have been divided (you might consider them different species but mostly all differences are cultural) and their extremely long lifespans can be the reason that it hasn't happened more often.

Come to think of it the real world doesn't make too much sense either.Hardly no sense at all, at least with the warhammer world you can recognise that some things are there to keep customers happy.


It does, as long as you factor in the human aspect.Maybe but it's a far stretch.

The main problem with Warhammer is that technology has not advanced as far as it should have done perhaps. But they have taken some tech taht we dont have to new hights, steam horses etc (the horror!)Somewhat explained in WFRP as the college of engineering is almost only intrested in technology used in war, telling the people they can have better life with the help of technology marks you as an agiator and that's not good.

Onisuzume
05-12-2009, 23:39
High Elves, Lizardmen, Wood Elves have no reasons to want to expand. But they cannot so easily be destroyed either.
Except that the Lizardmen *are* expanding.
They won the big fight for Albion and are busy building a new temple city there.

The only stupid thing is the size of the empire.I mean look at the world map and compare it to the eastern kingdoms or the southlands.Largest empire of mankind you say?BS!
Does the empire know much about Ind Cathay and the like?
No, it doesn't.
Thus they *are* the biggest empire for all they know.

HannibalSW
06-12-2009, 00:41
I don't see anything wrong with the Warhammer world, except that there is a taint that must be stamped out. It starts in the Bretonnian territory of Mousillon. Dark_Knight, his armies presence and foul bloodline must be erased for the Warhammer world to survive!

Condottiere
06-12-2009, 00:57
Dark Elves are stretching the muscles, while High Elves are holding onto to their strategic garrison-ports; if they had the capacity, I'm sure they wouldn't be just trying to expand their colony of Arnheim in the New World.

burad
06-12-2009, 01:24
What GW is missing out on with everything being stagnated is the opportunity to produce more army books using the same miniatures, for a different time period. How about a book for the Empire in the Time of Sigmar? Or a book for an earlier dwarf army, or the army of Tilea, etc. You could have additional books for some or all of these powers that play the earlier timeframe, and they use the same miniatures GW already produces in different combinations. Or just a book with the armies from a particular campaign/war.
That would give the modeler reason to buy more of the same figures to paint differently, and GW wouldn't have to produce a whole batch of new minis for the new books, but they could produce sets of minis for particular times described by the new books (all you need is a new box). Perhaps campaign books would be the best way to do it. New challenges for the gamers, 'cause their tried and true combinations perhaps aren't available in the earlier period, and more scenario-based games to get people to learn how to play with whatever they're given, instead of the best they can buy.

Epaminondas
06-12-2009, 02:10
What GW is missing out on with everything being stagnated is the opportunity to produce more army books using the same miniatures, for a different time period. How about a book for the Empire in the Time of Sigmar? Or a book for an earlier dwarf army, or the army of Tilea, etc. You could have additional books for some or all of these powers that play the earlier timeframe, and they use the same miniatures GW already produces in different combinations. Or just a book with the armies from a particular campaign/war.
That would give the modeler reason to buy more of the same figures to paint differently, and GW wouldn't have to produce a whole batch of new minis for the new books, but they could produce sets of minis for particular times described by the new books (all you need is a new box). Perhaps campaign books would be the best way to do it. New challenges for the gamers, 'cause their tried and true combinations perhaps aren't available in the earlier period, and more scenario-based games to get people to learn how to play with whatever they're given, instead of the best they can buy.

I agree, and would like that a lot.

Vae Victis
06-12-2009, 03:18
Boom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_egypt
Goes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_japan
the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Empire
Dynamite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kush

Dark_Knight
06-12-2009, 03:47
I don't see anything wrong with the Warhammer world, except that there is a taint that must be stamped out. It starts in the Bretonnian territory of Mousillon. Dark_Knight, his armies presence and foul bloodline must be erased for the Warhammer world to survive!

What the heck! I am on the border area. Not really Mousillon main or anything. I even named my town Blackadder. Nothing evil about that.

Tokugawa100
06-12-2009, 04:59
I understand the OP's point and its true that in real life civilisations will not last as long as some of the races in Warhammer Fantasy.

But what needs to be remembered is that its not Earth its Warhammer, the humans in the Empire arent even really human like us.
They have a different kind of mentality which makes them unique even to us.

Geography, politics and religion have changed the Empire in some way or another over this 2000 years and despite having the same name has not stayed the same.

Really and Trully the Empire was wiped out and replaced by another civilisation ages ago called the Empire, its the same people with the same name but completely different civilisation.
They just dont want to change their name, who would? Imagine if their was an Empire on Earth you would feel pretty important.

"Im from Australia where are you from"

"Oh you know just a little place called the Empire ruling nation of humanity".

This has happened throughout our history where a civilisation takes over another and then gets torn down itself but the countries it conquered stay the same.
Just because the Roman Empire fell does not mean all of its people dissapeared off the Earth, they still live today in Italy and many parts of Europe.
The people of Mesopotamia did not dissapear and neither did the Persians, they just have different names now.

However what the most important thing to remember is that Warhammer is fantasy and make believe.
History and changing worlds is fascinating in reading material and movies but for a game can you imagine the confusion trying to keep up with the different changes and civilisation tweaks.

The Empire is now New Empire which was in turn conquered by chaos to become the Chaos Empire which was overun by the rat men and became New Chaos Skavenblight Empire which was reclaimed by the dwarfs and elves in an alliance and given back to the humans who called it the Empire once more.
All the while the New Khemri arose and marched on Lustria to conquer it and rename it South Khemri but the Lizardmen fled and conquered the Ulthuan island and called it new Lizardman land and enslaved the elves.

United under one banner the three elven races formed a single nation called New Elf Land and reclaimed the magic isle.
After a short victory in fighting began once more and the New Elf Land was split into hundreds of rivalling factions who all claimed Ulthuan.
The Dark Elves.
The Wood Elves.
The High Elves.
And the Republic of Bob.

I personally like how the fluff is, some races have gone extinct and some havnt, its fantasy it doesnt need to make sense.

Sorry fort the long post.

101st Vostroyan
06-12-2009, 15:04
First of all, the Warhammer world is set for a medieval theator. In Medieval times, countries didnt exist, rather there were provinces and territories that had fuedal estates in which serfs worked the land for protection on the estate.

Also, ITS A GAME!!!!

Lets say that the empire was crushed. Ok, does that mean that no one can play Empire anymore.

The problem with this argument is that it makes no sense. If the different races were destroyed every once and a while, then the army book would become irrelevent because "they dont exist anymore."

Onisuzume
06-12-2009, 15:39
if they had the capacity, I'm sure they wouldn't be just trying to expand their colony of Arnheim in the New World.
Or they think that it's a bridge too far.

What GW is missing out on with everything being stagnated is the opportunity to produce more army books using the same miniatures, for a different time period. How about a book for the Empire in the Time of Sigmar? Or a book for an earlier dwarf army, or the army of Tilea, etc. You could have additional books for some or all of these powers that play the earlier timeframe, and they use the same miniatures GW already produces in different combinations. Or just a book with the armies from a particular campaign/war.
Don't count on it. GW isn't going to do Horus Heresy codices for 40k (even though it appears to be fairly popular), let alone alternate timeline army lists that are barely popular at all. If anything, Forgeworld would be the ones doing it.

deggaroth
06-12-2009, 16:21
Let me see if I understand the OP's argument. Your ok with a world that has mythical races that live for hundreds of years, beings who use magic to defy the laws of physics, and a realm that exists in an alternate dimmension that is trying to enslave the entire world. However, you have a problem with the lack of realism in the timespan of a given empire's life? ;)

Lol, I didn't mean that as an insult. I make arguments like that all the time. Then I have to remind myself that one of the main points of fantasy is to introduce us to an alternate universe that is nothing like our own.

x1xx1x
06-12-2009, 19:30
Rather pedantic and frivolous topic, of course a fantasy world doesn't make sense and to compare the real world history with a fantasy game history in such detail is redicilous.

People spend hundreds of £/$ on their armies, how would they feel if all of a sudden GW decided that you cant actually use that army any more because it has been destroyed as a nation lol

brendel
06-12-2009, 21:25
I dont think the empire would have last as long as it has without the help of the Elder races, Elves, Dwarfs They seem to play some role in the empires defence druing a invashion and In there progress, Magic, Gun powder etc.....
Maybe if the Romans had aid form such races they would have been around alot longer lol.

Epaminondas
06-12-2009, 22:36
Boom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_egypt
Goes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_japan
the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Empire
Dynamite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kush

Your
1450 years until conquest by Hyskos
Attempt
Not truly ruled by a single monarch until the Meiji resoration
At
Conquered by Mongols 1400 years after unification
Cockiness
500 years??
Fails

Epaminondas
06-12-2009, 22:36
Rather pedantic and frivolous topic, of course a fantasy world doesn't make sense and to compare the real world history with a fantasy game history in such detail is redicilous.

People spend hundreds of £/$ on their armies, how would they feel if all of a sudden GW decided that you cant actually use that army any more because it has been destroyed as a nation lol

But they could still use all their models, fighting tactics wouldn't change.

Agoz
06-12-2009, 23:11
They won't even do white dwarf army lists anymore because apparently they are too confusing to keep track of :rolleyes: I can't see them (and wouldn't want them) doing another 20 or so source books like other less successful companies.

TheShadowCow
06-12-2009, 23:11
WHFB world doesn't follow the same rules as ours does.

(As an example) I'd wager that, had they had access to magical missiles, the ability to control climate, transmutation, prophecy and so on, none of the historical nations/empires/factions that have been discussed in this thread would have gone the way they did. Crucial losses could have been avoided, betrayals recognised, famines averted, plagues cured, hostile nations obliterated. Yadda yadda, etc etc.

In short, you don't *know* that events in WHFB history wouldn't play out as they have been written, because you don't understand the complexities of the system (none of us do, because it's a) fictional and b) not detailed enough). Saying that the Empire should have re-drawn its borders countless times, or that it's implausible for a nation to endure for a given length of time is silly when you're in no better position, factually and systemically, than those who crafted the setting as-is.

Condottiere
07-12-2009, 00:46
The Romans discovered that there are natural barriers to successfully expand and control an Empire, one of them being the Rhine. The Romans based theirs on the Mediterranean, allowing them to reach each point efficiently, the Warhammer Empire seems to have been centralized around a riverine system as the primary transport infrastructure. To expand much beyond that might require massive construction of military roads, which even the Romans found had their limitations.

ChaosVC
07-12-2009, 01:06
I say we burn the Empire! Burn them all! Sihft empire to the waste of chaos so the warriors of chaos will have all the fertile lands! See how they like the cold dark places for a change! CHAOS RULES!!!

AussieSocks
07-12-2009, 02:07
I say we burn the Empire! Burn them all! Sihft empire to the waste of chaos so the warriors of chaos will have all the fertile lands! See how they like the cold dark places for a change! CHAOS RULES!!!

Roughly Translates to:

The Empire has more land, better land, keeps kicking our asses and we live in a barren wasteland. CHAOS RULES!!!

;) had to

ChaosVC
07-12-2009, 03:21
I say we burn the Empire! Burn them all! Sihft empire to the waste of chaos so the warriors of chaos will have all the fertile lands! See how they like the cold dark places for a change! CHAOS RULES!!!

Roughly Translates to:

The Empire has more land, better land, keeps kicking our asses and we live in a barren wasteland. CHAOS RULES!!!

;) had to

...cough...Blasphemy!!!...cough...

Jacktheripper34
07-12-2009, 07:24
You're looking at it all wrong. No one ever said that the empire = holy roman empire or that bretonia = france. Now before you flame me with a billion references that you believe prove me wrong, hear me out. When these two analogies have been made it was in reference to how technologically advanced these nations are, and where the basis of their fluff was derived from.

You must remember that this is a fantasy game, where the world, the people, the politics, etc etc is no where near the real world. It makes sense that the empire has lasted that long because well... the people who invented this fantasy world said it did. The day you find proof that the aztecs were actually seven foot tall lizards I will personally shove my foot in my mouth and post it on youtube for all of you to enjoy (that was a joke, haha, not a hostile remark.)

Tokugawa100
07-12-2009, 07:50
You're looking at it all wrong. No one ever said that the empire = holy roman empire or that bretonia = france. Now before you flame me with a billion references that you believe prove me wrong, hear me out. When these two analogies have been made it was in reference to how technologically advanced these nations are, and where the basis of their fluff was derived from.

You must remember that this is a fantasy game, where the world, the people, the politics, etc etc is no where near the real world. It makes sense that the empire has lasted that long because well... the people who invented this fantasy world said it did. The day you find proof that the aztecs were actually seven foot tall lizards I will personally shove my foot in my mouth and post it on youtube for all of you to enjoy (that was a joke, haha, not a hostile remark.)


How about we just say they were and you go post that vid ;)

Aztecs were cooler then Lizardmen though, probably because they were real.

ChaosVC
07-12-2009, 07:56
How about we just say they were and you go post that vid ;)

Aztecs were cooler then Lizardmen though, probably because they were real.

Without a doubt...untill they decide to skin me and my family alive and dance around with our skins as offering to their gods, good thing they no longer worship the god of "Skin you alive and take your Heart out!". The real world is darker than any dark fantasy GW can conjures.

Djekar
07-12-2009, 08:08
I often find my worship of the "Skin You Alive and Take out Your Heart" pantheon is unprotected by the freedom of religion. :cries:

Col. Frost
07-12-2009, 09:03
Its a sad day when "Skin You Alive and Take out Your Heart" religion is frowned upon, but a religion based upon running around in a dressing-gown holding a Fluorescent tube and claiming to 'Use the force' is recognised :cries:

Back OT :rolleyes:

If they were to split the empire into warring factions, they would still be based upon the same army book so why not?

Lets not forget that not everything in the Empire has stayed the same for 2500+ years. The residents of Marienburg would have something to say about that :)

EmperorNorton
07-12-2009, 10:41
The fall of the Empire would be interesting and doesn't necessarily mean the army wouldn't be usable anymore after that.
It just wouldn't exist anymore at a certain point of time in a fictional history, which shouldn't have any impact whatsoever for playing the game. It's the same with the "dead" special characters in the current army books. In fiction nothing can ever truly die or cease to exist - you just have to turn back a couple of pages and it's still there.
It'd probably confuse too many people, though, that their fantasy battles would then be set at a point of time that is not the end of the presented timeline.

Crazy Ivan
07-12-2009, 10:48
Meh. The Warhammer world is as much a parody of our own world as it is of Tolkien's Middle Earth, which also saw surprisingly little technoligical and social advancement during its existence. Sure, nations tended to get wiped out, but only because of the machinations of the Dark Lord, and there were always successor states.

It's a long-standing rule of almost all Fantasy worlds that they exist in a perpetual "medieval" state (as much as that is actually untrue, by the way), and even if there is technological advancement, all social chance is most likely limited to peoples falling to the "Dark side". Take a page from the great father of Fantasy himself: Tolkien had a passionate hatred for the accomplishments of the industrial revolution, and I'm sure he wasn't too keen on most other revolutions either.

Heck, even the Fantasy world that sees the most change (that I know of), the Discworld, is presented as pretty much technologically and socially static for thousands of years until the events of the first few books...

Condottiere
07-12-2009, 11:00
Empire Successor States would squabble amongst each other, and attempt to project their respective hegemonies, so nothing really changed except the form and the name.

willowdark
07-12-2009, 15:58
1450 years until conquest by Hyskos


The Hyksos only conquered the Lower Kingdom. So, while effectively cutting the Empire in half, that doesn't really represent a discontinuity of the Egyptian dynastic tradition. It was also, of course, the armies of the upper Kingdom which ultimately expelled the Hyksos, reestablishing the preserved tradition in the Lower Kingdom.

Like it or not, Egypt reigned under a homogeneous ideological dynastic tradition for more than 3000 years, and pokes a not insubstantial hole in your argument.

It effectively took the entire human race ~6000 years to go from the first city, Uruk (modern day Iraq) c.4500 B.C.E., to the Renaissance of the Holy Roman Empire, of which the Empire, the most advanced civilization in WHF, is meant to represent. That's a pretty damn long time.

When the Europeans were building guns and telescopes, the Native Americans were essentially still living in the Stone Age, subsistence farming in kin bands and/or following herd migrations.

The obvious exception is Mesoamerica, which achieved a status of civilization that rivaled Rome. But from the Olmec to the Aztecs that culture lasted 3000 years, and would've lasted much longer if they hadn't been conquered by European germ warfare. It is something close to foolishness trying to draw a meaningful distinction between the Olmec, Maya and Aztecs. They are essentially periods of processual evolution of culture defined by the rise and fall of cities and the kins that ruled them. Olmec culture, most notably deities like Quetzalcoatl and the association of kings with jaguars, was continued through each period. They certainly exemplified the type of in-fighting and geographic limitations that has held the Empire stagnant. And, like the Egyptions, they maintained a homogeneous ideology from which all ruling dynasties derived their legitimacy, only shifting from one localized center of power to the other.

You're over-generalizing. For all we know, the Empire-Renaissance will blossom in the next 600 years into a modern world like we have today. Of course that won't be possible without hydro-carbon fuels.

Leogun_91
07-12-2009, 16:59
Its a sad day when "Skin You Alive and Take out Your Heart" religion is frowned upon, but a religion based upon running around in a dressing-gown holding a Fluorescent tube and claiming to 'Use the force' is recognised :cries:Well the former might be much cooler but I prefer the second one as people aren't killed by it.

Pushkin
07-12-2009, 17:08
I love the fact that this thread is basically an exercise in cutting and pasting various information on historical empires from wikipedia! and i thought the arguments we had in the 40k forums were stoopid... :-)

lol, saying that i can't resist getting involved!!

Whilst the length of various historical empires have been compared with The Empire of the warhammer world, surely the presence of Orcs & Goblins, Chaos & Undead etc. offer a unifying solution to all humanity. E.g. people are less likely to rebel/strive for independence etc. because there are overarching concerns e.g. fighting off the chaos hordes from the North!

Human geography/history are of limited use as a comparisson because we don't have any one cause to rally to. If the world were invaded by aliens (maybe the tyranid swarm set to arrive in january!?!) you might see a human empire form and consolidate behind one set cause (survival).

Agoz
07-12-2009, 17:13
Shouldn't this thread be in warhammer background?

Brimweave
07-12-2009, 18:37
The fall of the Empire would be interesting and doesn't necessarily mean the army wouldn't be usable anymore after that.
It just wouldn't exist anymore at a certain point of time in a fictional history, which shouldn't have any impact whatsoever for playing the game. It's the same with the "dead" special characters in the current army books. In fiction nothing can ever truly die or cease to exist - you just have to turn back a couple of pages and it's still there.
It'd probably confuse too many people, though, that their fantasy battles would then be set at a point of time that is not the end of the presented timeline.

The issue I find with progressing the story so that an army no longer exists but still playing the army in a battle in the past is that any victory with that army would feel abit pointless as you know they would still fade out in the end.

The other issue is that if a certain army wipes out another that army will become alot more popular in sales than the army which has been wiped out. I'm not saying the warhammer world should shift in story at all but instead only slightly.

EmperorNorton
07-12-2009, 19:13
The issue I find with progressing the story so that an army no longer exists but still playing the army in a battle in the past is that any victory with that army would feel abit pointless as you know they would still fade out in the end.

Considering the profound influence the outcomes of the battles we play have on the setting, i.e. none whatsoever, I wouldn't see playing an army that no longer exists at some point in the fictional history of the Warhammer world as (more) pointless.


The other issue is that if a certain army wipes out another that army will become alot more popular in sales than the army which has been wiped out.

You are probably right about that.

Epaminondas
07-12-2009, 20:54
It effectively took the entire human race ~6000 years to go from the first city, Uruk (modern day Iraq) c.4500 B.C.E., to the Renaissance of the Holy Roman Empire, of which the Empire, the most advanced civilization in WHF, is meant to represent. That's a pretty damn long time.

When the Europeans were building guns and telescopes, the Native Americans were essentially still living in the Stone Age, subsistence farming in kin bands and/or following herd migrations.

The obvious exception is Mesoamerica, which achieved a status of civilization that rivaled Rome. But from the Olmec to the Aztecs that culture lasted 3000 years, and would've lasted much longer if they hadn't been conquered by European germ warfare. It is something close to foolishness trying to draw a meaningful distinction between the Olmec, Maya and Aztecs. They are essentially periods of processual evolution of culture defined by the rise and fall of cities and the kins that ruled them. Olmec culture, most notably deities like Quetzalcoatl and the association of kings with jaguars, was continued through each period. They certainly exemplified the type of in-fighting and geographic limitations that has held the Empire stagnant. And, like the Egyptions, they maintained a homogeneous ideology from which all ruling dynasties derived their legitimacy, only shifting from one localized center of power to the other.

You're over-generalizing. For all we know, the Empire-Renaissance will blossom in the next 600 years into a modern world like we have today. Of course that won't be possible without hydro-carbon fuels.
Ok, ok. My example about the Hyskos was a bit over specific. After their fall to the Persians, they had lasted 2700 years, in one form or another. After that they didn't have true self rule for about 1500 years

And too everyone else, if the Warhammer Crew doesn't want people to draw parallels from HRE---Empire they should stop making historical similarities. They're kind of smacking us in the face with Marienburg's rebellion, which is very similar to that of the Dutch secession from the Habsburg Emperor, who was at times the Holy Roman Emperor.

Dexter099
07-12-2009, 21:05
Yes, but it is quite interesting to see the similarities and historical tributes.

Anyways, I disagree with the description of the Aztec empire as being equal to Rome. Rome was a lot more sophisticated and stable than the Aztecs were. The Aztecs were a house of cards just waiting to fall, Spaniards or no, with their repressive regime that routinely captured and sacrificed their subject peoples. It's why the non-Aztec natives decided to help the Spaniards.

Nor are the Mayans comparable to Rome. They were too fragmented and divided. I would have to say that they are closer to the Greeks, what with their city states, though the Olmecs might be closer.

Regardless, the Aztecs had regressed from the Mayans in some ways, and the Mayans from the Olmecs.

EmperorNorton
07-12-2009, 21:27
And too everyone else, if the Warhammer Crew doesn't want people to draw parallels from HRE---Empire they should stop making historical similarities. They're kind of smacking us in the face with Marienburg's rebellion, which is very similar to that of the Dutch secession from the Habsburg Emperor, who was at times the Holy Roman Emperor.

Just because they allude to certain things from history doesn't mean you can equate history and fiction.
Also, I don't find the secession of Marienburg particularly similar to the Netherland's way to independence. It lacks some not unimportant elements
(like 80 years of war).

RGB
07-12-2009, 21:34
Regardless of whether the Empire is united or not, the notion of the prime lands of the Old World occupied by humanity is core to the entire Warhammer world.

The Humans have all the good real estate: Empire, Bretonnia, Tilea, Estalia, Kislev, Marienburg, the Border Pinces. Likewise in Cathay etc. This is important.

Humans are easiest to understand, so they are fodder for novels and WHFRP. Their motivations can be often left un-elaborated, because everyone understands what goes on implicitly. The details of their history can easily be filled by historical parallels. It's important to not overdo it, but it's a nifty tool for a story-teller and world-builder.

Humans look best wielding the iconic weapons of warhammer (all that lovely gunpowder without which the entire franchise is an indifferently written MedievalLand). There is a major problem of really slow technology progression, but one has to remember that it's epic fantasy and epic fantasy tends to substitute millenia where centuries would have sufficed. Further, even OTL technology never did develop unless there was economic incentive to develop it. Look at the history of steam or clockwork.

Humans are well, the best protagonists for a black-and-grey world; pragmatic motivations contrasted with outright self-destructive insanity. Without Humans, Chaos would necessarily look different. Go ask Elric for an example: similar and yet not.

Humans are also a good measuring stick, being placed roughly in the middle of the stat scale. We know how tough a tough human is, so when an Ork is tougher and a Goblin is weedier, we know exactly where they are. That avoids the elf or the dwarf becoming the basic grunt, allowing them to retain some conformance to their traditional fantasy roles and stereotypes. This is good for sales.

Finally, strong Human states are a great measuring stick against which to prove the 'ardness of your fighty but otherwise bland fantasy race. Orks, beastmen, most Vampire, even Chaos, really only become important and intesting when they almost beat up a strong opponent - Bretonnia, Empire, Kislev, you name it. The flipside of that is that the victim has to remain standing for the next Big Bad to prove their Badassery upon.

No other race but Humanity can fulfill that role.

So why break up the Empire? If it's broken, another human state has to fill its role. If there's many successors, I'd welcome it, but it is apparent most WH players can hardly remember the few things that do exist already; remembering more wouldn't help.

And that's my thoughts on the matter.

willowdark
07-12-2009, 22:15
I think I really thrive on these threads. ;)


Yes, but it is quite interesting to see the similarities and historical tributes.

Anyways, I disagree with the description of the Aztec empire as being equal to Rome. Rome was a lot more sophisticated and stable than the Aztecs were. The Aztecs were a house of cards just waiting to fall, Spaniards or no, with their repressive regime that routinely captured and sacrificed their subject peoples. It's why the non-Aztec natives decided to help the Spaniards.

Nor are the Mayans comparable to Rome. They were too fragmented and divided. I would have to say that they are closer to the Greeks, what with their city states, though the Olmecs might be closer.

Regardless, the Aztecs had regressed from the Mayans in some ways, and the Mayans from the Olmecs.


I said "rivaled" Rome. That's not quite the same as equal to. The Mesoamerican empires did, however, farm and trade extensively, engage in the commission of incredible public works projects, and built roads. they had sports as well as an active mythology. What they lacked was a sophisticated writing system, chiseling into stone just will never compete with paper, and any kind of long distance seafaring technology.

Rome was never much more than a house of cards, it was just fortified with the mortar of Greek military and intellectual advancements.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
07-12-2009, 23:26
One should also take into account the entities that actively thwart change/progression in the world. Like the story in the daemon book about the swarm of Nurglings collapsing the temple where a cure was found, it is easy to imagine one of the 'gods' acting against almost any change.

Further, magic is a mitigating factor which opposes advancement- why work hard to invent something if it can already be done magically [or is surrounded by a ritual which makes it sacred to one of the gods- whose presence is quite obvious].

Finally, maybe the stagnation is just an indication that it is really the Lords of Law who rule the Warhammer World rather than the pretenders of Chaos.

Condottiere
08-12-2009, 00:03
The Mesoamerican Empires seemed rather like successor states, as one declined, another took over, so where there appears to be a cultural difference, there also appears to be a continuity.

Lusall
08-12-2009, 00:50
There's a lot that doesn't make "sense" from a historical point of view. But you really can't look at it from a historical point of view. Itís a fantasy world and so, while you can draw parallels to our own it ultimately is an entirely different world with no real connections to our own.
But you have to remember, the Empire has changed a great deal since its creation, while most of the other factions/ races have not. When Sigmar saw a vision of the future in the book Empire, by Graham McNeil he could barely recognize Middenheim and didnít even recognize the soldiers on the walls.
Bretonnia is a land that has had little outside influences. It has changed little in comparison to the Empire, but the fact of the matter is itís had little need for it. Itís also under the protection of magic. Iím way too tired to expand on this right now, but you get the point I hope.

ChaosVC
08-12-2009, 03:09
Well all fantasy make no sense..for example, Sigmar is an odinary man, he is not some 40 space marine Primarch or whatever nor was he a god. So how the hell does a warrior priest of Sigmar get his vodoo from anyway? Ulric on the other hand can truely bestow upon it followers holy powers. But there are actually more sigmarite then the wolf god followers? If you think too deeply and try to analyst it in a scientific way, you end up become a like the OP.

tezdal
08-12-2009, 03:30
I think I really thrive on these threads. ;)


Rome was never much more than a house of cards, it was just fortified with the mortar of Greek military and intellectual advancements.


Hmm...that house of cards lasted in one form or another till 1453......anyway, my thoughts on Warhammers Empires etc....dont take it so seriously, 2500 year old empire fighting for survival sounds suitably grimdark....now a 10000 year old space empire thats craz...erm

Condottiere
08-12-2009, 06:38
Well all fantasy make no sense..for example, Sigmar is an odinary man, he is not some 40 space marine Primarch or whatever nor was he a god. So how the hell does a warrior priest of Sigmar get his vodoo from anyway? Ulric on the other hand can truely bestow upon it followers holy powers. But there are actually more sigmarite then the wolf god followers? If you think too deeply and try to analyst it in a scientific way, you end up become a like the OP.It seems to be along the same premise that every other demigod was created and grants powers to his clerics - sheer faith. He died, his people started praying to him to intervene in mortal affairs, that emotion filters through and strengthens what is the remnants of his "soul" to the point that it can influence it's current environment and actually intervene on the mortal plane.

ChaosVC
08-12-2009, 06:48
It seems to be along the same premise that every other demigod was created and grants powers to his clerics - sheer faith. He died, his people started praying to him to intervene in mortal affairs, that emotion filters through and strengthens what is the remnants of his "soul" to the point that it can influence it's current environment and actually intervene on the mortal plane.


I am pretty sure you made that up right?:cool:

Condottiere
08-12-2009, 13:10
Too much RPGing and research. Though it does seem a logical explanation in the Warhammer context.

The other explanation would be that Ulric (or some other interested powerful party) raised him up to godhood.

Vae Victis
08-12-2009, 14:33
I am pretty sure you made that up right?:cool:

Not as much as you might think. In Warhammer continuity, magic flows from the warp (40k) or the realm of chaos (fantasy). The warp is the metaphysical reflection of sentient emotion in the "real world." The Chaos Gods themselves are born of the failings and vices of the Old World's inhabitants. For example, the Eldar in 40k "created" Slaanesh by their indulgence and excess at the height of their empire.

Likewise, the Empire created Sigmar as a god-like entity by their worship of him as a man.

Wakerofgods
08-12-2009, 19:27
Now, when you all read that thread title I bet everyone thought "Well of course not, it's a crazy world of magic stuff" but my #1 gripe with the Warhammer Fantasy World is that every country lasts way too long. Not too mention that basically every race is it's own country in the lore (IMO, Dark Elves, High Elves, and Forest Elves have basically become different races) It can be difficult to be immersed and interested in a world with a poor background. I love this hobby though, so I want to encourage discussion about where it's going.


This is largely because it's races fighting against each other instead of countries.

The pesants fight a lot harder to protect their country from conquest by orcs then they would if it was just another guy who wanted to wear the crown.

There is also a rather long standing (if 'loose) alliance between the 'main' races to fight against chaos. This dosen't prevent them from fighting each other on occasion, but it does prevent them from attempting to actually destroy or destabalize the others countries.

Because of the unique political situation the races are (in the broadest sense) working together. They rely on each other to help them fight of chaos and because of this they never engage in war so significant they conquor each other.

They have basically set up a system where the countries will only die in two ways:
Falling apart on their own (but this is usually just a revolution/civil war)
Chaos wins and everyone goes down

The 'yeartoyear' politics of the warhammer world might now show this cooperation, but that dosen't mean it isn't there and in a significant way over the long term.

There is a very big difference between the warhammer world and 'IRL' historical politics, we fought against each other for as long as we remember but in the warhammer world they have chaos and orcs to worry about. They have 'battles' against each other but not full scale war.

Luisjoey
08-12-2009, 19:59
WHFB is a world were humanity have many MONSTERS against; with hordes of orks from surround, skaven from below, dark elves from the sea, and soo on! Humanity have to keep together and fight common enemies, but even so humanity have LOTS of differences between elector counts and with bretons, border princes, estalia and tilea.

Is very realistic in that way, the empire have many changes because through time; in the begining was something like tribes united under a warrior (like scorpion king movie) and then the tecnology advanced (at a slow rate but moved by continuous ways to kill others)

We in real world have more time to deal with ourselves and create countries destroying others... but if you see the ROMAN EMPIRE is the same, the power in europe that have changed from protagonist and even moved to other parts of the world (EEUU) But still we have congress/senate, citizenship, and other things from that system.

Tokugawa100
09-12-2009, 05:32
Without a doubt...untill they decide to skin me and my family alive and dance around with our skins as offering to their gods, good thing they no longer worship the god of "Skin you alive and take your Heart out!". The real world is darker than any dark fantasy GW can conjures.

When I said cool I kinda meant it in a "thank god they dont still exist and Im not a helpless villager in central America" kinda way.

Its kinda that "fear" which makes it more interesting because you cant believe that people were once like that.

ChaosVC
09-12-2009, 06:00
I am pretty sure there were alot of "cool" scary practices done in the past by men which were either not recorded or lost to the historians. An ancient testicle decapitator might be mistaken to be spoon by archeologist for all we know...offering to the god of "You only need one testicle to breed".

H33D
09-12-2009, 20:06
I'm no history buff but what I notice in real life is countries get conquered, control of the country changes hands, the peasants are either still working in the fields or get replaced by others which the conquers brought with them. It seems its all about land, and who has the best of it.

In warhammer its all about war, and destroying your enemies, no army will conquer an area, settle, and defend it. All they do is invade until they are defeated, withdraw, and the people who where in their path return or if they were killed, replaced.

However there is an example in the warhammer world where an empire has indeed crumbled and is not only being invaded, but also being settled where they once where. Is is of course, the dwarven empire. Many of their dwarf holds have been conquered by night goblins and skaven who now occupy them. Soon they will be extinct :) (good riddance)

But that's just my two cents.

Dwarves held their own just fine until Daemons showed up. The King dropped a mountain on them, but had to sacrifice his hold. Dwarves only started losing to O&G after the Daemons reduced the Dwarven numbers drastically. Also, Dwarves have been retaking old holds for a while now supposedly.

black_numenorean
10-12-2009, 02:52
Look at the Kingdom of England as a nation - it has been held together for roughly 800 years as a sovereign nation (it became Great Britain in 1707, but did not lose and sovereignty)

mrtn
10-12-2009, 10:21
What GW is missing out on with everything being stagnated is the opportunity to produce more army books using the same miniatures, for a different time period. How about a book for the Empire in the Time of Sigmar? Or a book for an earlier dwarf army, or the army of Tilea, etc. You could have additional books for some or all of these powers that play the earlier timeframe, and they use the same miniatures GW already produces in different combinations. Or just a book with the armies from a particular campaign/war.
That would give the modeler reason to buy more of the same figures to paint differently, and GW wouldn't have to produce a whole batch of new minis for the new books, but they could produce sets of minis for particular times described by the new books (all you need is a new box). Perhaps campaign books would be the best way to do it. New challenges for the gamers, 'cause their tried and true combinations perhaps aren't available in the earlier period, and more scenario-based games to get people to learn how to play with whatever they're given, instead of the best they can buy.I'm all for painting empire soldiers as Estalians or Tileans, but if it comes to pretending those puffy sleeves are from Sigmar's time I'll break down and cry.

Daniel36
10-12-2009, 10:25
My 1 cents (Itīs hardly 2, mind you):
Who said that " Warhammer" years last 365 days?...

And I'm pretty sure that this has already been said a couple of times, but it's all written to a commercial standpoint.... Which makes sense.

Anyone remember the Nemesis Crown? Yeah, they ALL went for it... Sure...

Leogun_91
10-12-2009, 11:12
The other explanation would be that Ulric (or some other interested powerful party) raised him up to godhood.Well in the realm of chaos all time exist at the same time so Sigmar the god could simply have raised Sigmar the man to godhod so that he could raise Sigmar to godhod e.t.c.

Condottiere
10-12-2009, 11:34
Sigmar - not sure if he's coming or going.

Seriously, elements of divinity may have been floating around since the Big Bang, just waiting for the correct soul(s) to turn up and give them their form. So, I'd say we're not faced with a paradox.

wizbix
10-12-2009, 15:01
The real world doesnít make much sense most of the time does it? On that hypothesis, what is the point of the discussion?

yabbadabba
10-12-2009, 15:12
The real world doesnít make much sense most of the time does it? On that hypothesis, what is the point of the discussion? I am quite surprised this has gone on for so long. Sorry Epimanidos but I don't know what you are trying to get at.

willowdark
10-12-2009, 17:33
He offered a view of history that people disagreed with and used it to discredit the Warhammer world. He was challenged and the debate has carried on. It's not exactly unreasonable.

yabbadabba
10-12-2009, 20:51
He offered a view of history that people disagreed with and used it to discredit the Warhammer world. He was challenged and the debate has carried on. It's not exactly unreasonable. I didn't say it was unreasonable. I just couldn't see what he was getting at.

Unwise
10-12-2009, 23:08
With regards to the OPs assessments, I think it is very important to keep in mind the unifying effect being surrounded by enemies has.

If humans are surrounded by orcs and chaos, they are less likely to worry about internal strife and politics. The need for stability is paramount. Ideas about political reform or revolution would be quashed violently by the secret police and witchhunters of most nations.

What seperates the Warhammer world from ours politically is the state of constant warfare. Our ultra-nationalism and flag waving falters and falls as soon as we are not under threat anymore. Theirs does not as they are never not under threat.

Take into account also the effects that active gods play in the role of kings. If your in a world where your king can turn into the living avatar of your god, you are unlikely to challenge his "divine right to rule".

On the flip side:
- the dwarven empire has pretty much fallen.
- The elven empire has fallen and what remains is torn by civil war.
- The orcs, ogres, and chaos are constantly in civil war.
- Undead minions get no choice, but somehow still end up fighting each other all the time.
- Lizardmen are genetically bred to serve their roll and have an alien intellect we cannot compare to.
- Tilea and Estalia have fallen and are pretty much just city-states.
- The Skaven are wracked by political turmoil the likes of which other races cannot even comprehend.
- The wood elves have living avatars of their gods leading them, so no disputing there. They are also far from under the control of their governemnt, more a tribal alliance.
- Poor Kislev is pretty much wiped out.

So we are really only looking at the Empire and Brettonia of bastions of idyllic empires.

Condottiere
10-12-2009, 23:20
Since when have Estalia and Tilea fallen?

RGB
10-12-2009, 23:26
Tilea and Estalia have fallen and are pretty much just city-states.

They've never fallen anywhere, and they always were city-states. There was never a unified Tilea or Estalia.


Poor Kislev is pretty much wiped out.

In fact Kislev did fantastically in all the Storm-of-Chaos era novels/Gav's updates. If I was their tribal neighbours, I'd be a little scared for my pastures right now. Sure, Erengrad was sacked (and it's actually unclear just how extensively) and a few northern towns burned, but the Tzarina kept her army, won several major victories and is now facing a very weak and disorganised enemy.

Epaminondas
11-12-2009, 00:14
I didn't say it was unreasonable. I just couldn't see what he was getting at.

I was trying to say the Warhammer World should be more dynamic with regards to it's countries.

yabbadabba
11-12-2009, 07:35
I was trying to say the Warhammer World should be more dynamic with regards to it's countries. Thank you mate. Right very simple its about business - in this case how GW look at their overall IP as a product. Back in ummm '99? When GW ran the Third Armageddon War Campaign, they killed off Tycho of the Blood Angels. They did a couple of other things too. What they did was to advance the timeline a little bit. Apparently many "coffee fueled" conversations went on in the studio about whether this would affect sales.

Fast Forward to Eye of Terror Campaigns and GW gave so much control over the campaign to the customers that it nearly lost Cadia. Now think about it for a minute, GW almost lost the home planet of the most successful selling guard army they had, almost wiping out the Cadians while they were at it. Not a good idea financially.

Now look at Squats and to some extent Kislev. Both technically destroyed due to invasions, both with no sign of any regeneration in the air (although Kislev seems more likely), both hardly featuring in anything GW currently does. From this you can extrapolate that they are races which do not fit into the sales success criteria GW are looking for.

As the vast, vast majority of GW's customers are a) 11-16 and b) leave after this it makes no sense to keep reinventing the wheel and have dynamic evolving historical systems. The people who make most of GW's money won't notice anyway, as they are not here long enough.

Hope that helps a bit.

Lord Solar Plexus
11-12-2009, 08:23
I think the real world is stale and static. China exists much longer than is possible when we look at the HRE. :angel:



Holy Roman Empire ... lasted 1005 years. ... Compare this to the Empire, which is going strong after 2522 years with no real breaks, despite having enemies ready to destroy her on all sides


There's the fault in your logic. It doesn't last despite that but because of that. The argument that it doesn't always work this way is meaningless - it does in this particular case.



I think this is awful, because either the Games Workshop writers are stupid, or just REALLY lazy. Why are they scared to change anything?


Calling them stupid and lazy makes you look like a ...never mind, especially when the reason is in plain sight. Do you suggest that player A plays The Empire while his brother who started two years later plays The Kingdom just because the timeline has changed? Same spearmen, different label? How could they ever fight against each other then? What if East and West Eldar reunite? Either that is the "official" state of things, or it is meaningless, random, arbitrary.

RGB
11-12-2009, 15:43
...to some extent Kislev. Both technically destroyed due to invasions, both with no sign of any regeneration in the air (although Kislev seems more likely), both hardly featuring in anything GW currently does....

...?

Can someone point me to the line that says "Kislev is technically destroyed due to Invasions?" because I don't seem to recall anything to suggest that. And for a place that just got a very optimistic source book for RP, this suggestion seems bizzare.

Middenland/CoU also lost its army, does that mean it was destroyed as well?

wizbix
11-12-2009, 16:35
They must be incredibly thick skinned at the very least with so much criticism. I'd recomend not playing the game or being in to the hobby if your not satisfied maybe otherwise perhaps that would be the least sense I can sense in the whole discusion. :evilgrin:

Necromancer2
11-12-2009, 16:45
Compairing the world of Warhammer to "our" history is an automatic failure.

Countries as you call it, in warhammer, have been destroyed and rebuilt.

yabbadabba
11-12-2009, 17:01
...?Can someone point me to the line that says "Kislev is technically destroyed due to Invasions?" because I don't seem to recall anything to suggest that. And for a place that just got a very optimistic source book for RP, this suggestion seems bizzare.
Middenland/CoU also lost its army, does that mean it was destroyed as well? Kislev didn't just lose its armies. If I remember right Erengrad and Praag were taken and destroyed, Kislev was beseiged or had fallen, and there was a part in the SoC summary which said that after the final battle at Middenheim the Kislevites were reduced to roving partisan bands ambushing warbands and fighting to take their country back. Or something like that anyway, it was a while ago.
Middenland and Middenheim survived. I don't think Middenheim even got seriously breached.

RGB
11-12-2009, 17:10
Kislev didn't just lose its armies. If I remember right Erengrad and Praag were taken and destroyed,

Sorry to disabuse you of the notion, but only Erengrad was sacked and later retaken. Praag was besieged, presumably, but there wasn't a lot of focus on it.


Kislev was beseiged or had fallen,

Flatly contradicted in Ambassador Chronicles and Riders of the Dead...all the Chaos Armies remaining in Kislev were flat out crushed by the time the big battle at Middenheim was taking place.


and there was a part in the SoC summary which said that after the final battle at Middenheim the Kislevites were reduced to roving partisan bands ambushing warbands and fighting to take their country back.

Makarev went back to Kislev after Chaos got crushed at Middenheim to take the country back. That's all that the summary says.


Middenland and Middenheim survived. I don't think Middenheim even got seriously breached.

What I meant by that is that both lost their official 6th ed. list with the new edition. In that sense they are in the same boat.

yabbadabba
11-12-2009, 17:32
@RGB. I am going to have to go back through my WD's now :mad:

However Riders of the Dead was released before SoC so unless they have done one of their now famous rewrites...? I am sure I bought that late 2003/early 2004. Certainly before SoC because it was inspiring me to do an army for the campaign. And I am fairly sure Ursun's teeth was pre SoC release, but I lost track of the rest of that series.

Its been so long now. If I am that bothered tomorrow I might have a look in the archives. In my loft. Somewhere :-)

As for the army lists, there have been more than a few armies that have gone the Long Walk over the years. Yes CoU and Middeland were one of those.

Edit: While I appreciate that BL has added some real depth to some things, anyone trying to sell me a loyalist mutant Marine story gets my full suspicion :)

RGB
11-12-2009, 17:43
@RGB. I am going to have to go back through my WD's now :mad:

I have an RP sourcebook that's newer than your SoC WD's. game on :D

That said, I don't actually know what was in the WDs, only what was in Gav's updates during the campaign.

yabbadabba
11-12-2009, 18:06
I have an RP sourcebook that's newer than your SoC WD's. game on :D
That said, I don't actually know what was in the WDs, only what was in Gav's updates during the campaign. Sorry RGB oldest source is the primary source. And as GW have rewritten so many things over the years, I'll take my originals anytime :D
It all comes down to whether the wife lets me play loft hubby or home hubby tomorrow lol!

RGB
11-12-2009, 18:27
Sorry RGB oldest source is the primary source. And as GW have rewritten so many things over the years, I'll take my originals anytime :D

In that case I also have SiRK where Kislev owns land across the World's Edge Mountains, and that's from the mid-90s :D


It all comes down to whether the wife lets me play loft hubby or home hubby tomorrow lol!

Yeah, that's always a big consideration.

Regarding Kislev, it'd be really strage if it was "all but completely destroyed" or somesuch, considering that over the years the palce has had:

2 games partly set there (WAR and Dark Omen); 2 Sourcebooks (SiRK and RotIQ); an army list (SoC); Novels set specifically in Kislev (Riders and the Ambassador duo); an official Mordheim warband; an official Warmaster army; a WD list (by Tuomas Piriinen, back when-when); been continously mentioned in other army books since at least 4th ed.

Frex, 6th ed. books that mention Kislev (as a challenging opponent, more often than not, or as a valuable ally, or as source of mercenaries, or have fluff pieces set there): O&G, HoC, VC, Empire, Ogres, HE (re:Teclis), DoW, and Scaven; there may be more but my memory is failing me.

Kislev was also a significant part of SoC; it's also listed as a "populous" state in Chaos in the Old World board game and is one of the more valuable regions on the map (sharing 3/4th place with Bretonnia in fact).

Finally, Gotrek and Felix went to Kislev, no? Although that happened prior to SoC, granted.

In other words, the place is very established in WH and it'd be illogical for them to write it off.

yabbadabba
11-12-2009, 20:09
But so was Fimir, Albion, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, Border Princes, Chaos Dwarves, Cathay, Nippon, Slann, Troglodytes Pygmies etc - so much has been used, forgotten and ignored. And on original sources I meant Gav's final article after SoC. I only read it once, and that was on its release.
There is nothing to stop Kislev coming back tho. Take Demi-urg :)

Condottiere
11-12-2009, 20:33
Kislev is recolonized by Garden Gnomes, whose short stature makes it impossible for Chaos Warriors to hit them, resulting in their vanquishment to the Chaos Wastes.

RGB
11-12-2009, 20:48
But so was Fimir, Albion, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, Border Princes, Chaos Dwarves, Cathay, Nippon, Slann, Troglodytes Pygmies etc - so much has been used, forgotten and ignored. And on original sources I meant Gav's final article after SoC. I only read it once, and that was on its release.
There is nothing to stop Kislev coming back tho. Take Demi-urg :)

Of everything you listed, only the Fimir are really gone; I'm not sure how much support Trogodytes had to start with, and Slann had their roles redefined.

Everything else is roughly in the same state now as in 2002, but that doesn't mean anything really happened to them. Kislev in particular was never gone anywhere background-wise and recieved some attention since SoC including a great sourcebook. The continuity continues, as far as I'm concerned.

Lusall
12-12-2009, 05:41
If you can believe the walking skeleton musician blowing the horn can break a tied combat, you can believe that the warhammer world can function like a well loved and oiled skaven doomwheel.

Think about it.

You know, you put it about as well as anyone. :D In the words of Peppy.

"You're the best, Slip!"

wizbix
12-12-2009, 08:58
Ha-ha this thread isn’t so much about the Warhammer world not making sense but more a platform for people to demonstrate that they know more fluff than the next person. That is fair enough but perhaps the OP could have just stated that in the first place. I still maintain that the real world makes no sense, at least not to me, so why should the Warhammer world? As for the fluff, I think they’ve done a pretty good job. I could have done some of it better in my opinion but as a whole I expect my attempt would have been a dismal failure. I just hope to god that that dreaded Fishman idea never comes to fruition. Well done GW for not having embraced that idea yet. GW you get my vote, if I am willing to spend vast amounts of hard earned cash on super expensive models then I should at least like the concepts behind them, which incidentally I do if they make sense or not.

LaughinGremlin
13-12-2009, 02:44
Wizbix, is that a pic of your army general? It could use a taunting tattoo on its butt.:eek:

*silly* In the Warhammer world, Civilizations don't get wiped out -- their model range just disappears for no apparent reason (i.e. chaos dwarfs and Tilea). Why their lands aren't occupied by civilizations with actual new model armies (pun intended) is beyond my reasoning capabilities. At the same time, some civilizations have never had armies, like Estalia, Nippon, Ind, and Cathay, but for some reason, they have not been overrun by Chaos or anyone else.

Lastly, the biggest thing that boggles me is why the Skaven haven't "inherited" yet. They could easily poison all the wells, spread plague, or stab non-rats in the bumb while they deficate, so often, that only rats and undead would remain. Really...:rolleyes::D

Some people should really consider playing WWII or Napoleanics or other historicaly-based games, because they are too cynical or arrogant to "buy" another man's creation. Write your own fantasy game which you think makes more sense and see how many people complain that dragons don't really exist and magic is too powerful or not powerful enough. If the world doesn't please thee, then get out of it. Find another or create your own. Very simple.
Life is what you make it, and you should enjoy what you do. Life is too short to try to change others or their gaming system. Take it or leave it. Are they any more cliches you've never heard that applies? I hope that you find your pie in the sky.
Sincerely,
LG

LaughinGremlin
13-12-2009, 02:56
*silly* If Bush found Osama, he wouldn't be able to make any more money selling ordinance and such to soldiers.

If I'm a cancer research scientist, and I find a cure, I won't get any more funding. Do you really think that it would be a good idea for one nation in Warhammer to conquer all? Do you think that Tomb Kings players would be happy that GW stopped supporting their army and replaced them with Nipponese Fishmen. "Oh, I'll just shelve this old, unsupported army without an army book and I'll blow a bunch of quid on a new army that may or may not be around for very long." No, people would walk away from GW and cut their losses.
This business sense of GW's, preserving its status quo, makes a lot of sense to me. You'd think that this would be obvious to EVERYONE.

Hellebore
13-12-2009, 03:36
Although I do agree in some areas the Warhammer world doesn't work, the Empire has hardly been a united er Empire for all that 2500 years of time.

Originally the area was composed of multiple kingdoms. When sigmar conquered them they became Elector counts of Provinces. Each area was the domain of a specific human tribe with its own customs, beliefs etc.

After the unification little changed. The only difference was that the kings were electors and they shared a common sense of unity.

Also, when Sigmar died, he was deified. This further strengthened the ties of the people of the Empire as their founder was now a god. That would have a strong unifying presence across the whole empire.

But, first and foremost, the people of the provinces were their own people. They were Averlanders first and men of the empire second.

The deification of Sigmar and the electorship of the provinces only tied them together in common cause. The majority of the time they spent independently doing their own thing. trade became more common between them, but culture remained the same.

So for the last 2500 years the federation of the empire has existed in ideal, if not actual form. After a few hundred years of stability the Drakwold emperors took control through bribery. They caused moral decay within the empire and led it too ruin. Allowing the counts to do what they wanted so long as they were compensated for it. 1000 years after the crowning of sigmar, plague and famine swept the land.

This was the time of Mandred the ratslayer. But he lasted only 25 years before being assassinated by the Skaven. After him Otto of Solland was installed but became a puppet. Puppet Emperors stayed on the throne for the next few hundred years until the time of the 3 Emperors, when Count Ottilia of Talabecland declared herself Emperor after the Grand Duke of Stirland had already been installed.

She banned the cult of Sigmar whilst Otto heavily taxed the cult of Ulric. The Ulrican count Heinrich of Middenland also felt he should be Emperor. Thus the 3 Emperors begins. The wars between the provinces becomes religious in tone, Ulricans vs Sigmarites. For the next few hundred years emperors popped up all over the place, cities declared independence from their provinces (Nuln, Talabheim etc), Sylvania was lost, solland was destroyed by Gorbad Ironclaw.

Short lived leagues of provinces appeared with their own rulers. After the invasion of of Talabheim, its revolt against its impotent Emperor and installation of a new one in 1750 and the crowning of Grand Countess Margraritha in 1979 the collapse of any unified Empire was complete. The Grand Theogonist declared the throne vacant and vacant it would stay for the next 400 years until the emergence of Magnus the Pious.

For those 400 years the Empire reverted to hostile kingdoms, each ignoring the others.

So, from the history of the empire, it has not been a single unified entity for very long, and the only reason it keeps going back to that is the shared sense of religion through a deified Emperor. If that didn't work then there was the xenophobic sense of species. We are all Men and Men of the Empire. Generally the best way to unit a people is to give them something hate about someone else so they clearly aren't from that group.

Hellebore

Boxhead
13-12-2009, 03:37
Okay, here we go.

The longevity of nations in Warhammer (and most other Fantasy worlds) is directly related to the existence of magic and the actual presence of gods who will interfere in life.

When you look at the empire, they were founded by a (possibly later defined) divine figure, who had the support of longer-lived races. Pick your favourite politician (I don't care who it is). Now imagine he befriended the lost race of underwear gnomes. They gifted him a magical hammer of doom. He used it to defeat the newly-returned Attila the Hun (it turns out he's a monstrous undead creature). Now he unites the country you live in. He gains the worship of the masses and lives for another hundred years, before telling everyone to be good to each other and leaving.

Everyone who took up his worship has amazing magic powers. They are immune to your attacks and cause the undead to crumble (just like in real life...). They also heal the worst of wounds. This is all done concretely in front of your eyes.

Would you be willing to ruin the work of that man? I wouldn't...

Condottiere
13-12-2009, 04:48
Sounds like Nixon in The Watchmen.

Tokugawa100
14-12-2009, 05:07
Sorry RGB oldest source is the primary source. And as GW have rewritten so many things over the years, I'll take my originals anytime :D
It all comes down to whether the wife lets me play loft hubby or home hubby tomorrow lol!

Thats your choice but newest is the primary source.

If oldest was the primary source for say 40k Squats would run rampant, Zoats would still exist. etc.

Or in fantasy Eltharion would still be a blind ninja "I wish they kept that:D",.

Just saying.;)

Tokugawa100
14-12-2009, 05:14
I also agree with Hellebore.

Even Rome wasnt the same for its entire lifespan.

There was the village of Rome.

The Roman Empire

The Holy Roman Empire

The Eastern and Western Empires of Rome

Rome "todays Rome"

There were a couple of others but Im tired and sleepy.

ChaosVC
14-12-2009, 05:27
Just like Hello Kitty.

Arke
20-01-2010, 19:03
ait, did I miss something? Aren't the empire supposed to represent the German empire? I mean their symbols and names are all German or close to German. And also Bretonnia, isn't that Britannia? If you want to compare to the real world start with Warriors of Chaos or in the real world: Vikings. There you can truly find things that isn't historically correct. For example horns on helms, very unpractical (but on chaos very cool).

Skyros
20-01-2010, 21:16
You're way off base.

New Powers: ogre Kingdoms, tomb kings

Collapsing powers that don't exist anymore: a terrible terrible idea because it would invalidate all the models and armybooks someone had collected.

The necessity of not obsoleting an entire model range means you're going to have a degree of stagnation.

tezdal
22-01-2010, 02:57
I wouldn't mind if the empire got overthrown by some quasi-religious anti puffy sleeve league

RGB
22-01-2010, 03:29
I wouldn't mind if the empire got overthrown by some quasi-religious anti puffy sleeve league

It already happened, it's called 7th ed. It's all about priests and ugly puff-less state troopers.

Except then they saved the day by bringing style back with the Pistolier and Greatsword kits, at least.

Punjoke
22-01-2010, 05:37
I think this is awful, because either the Games Workshop writers are stupid, or just REALLY lazy. Why are they scared to change anything? I think I would be a tremendous amount of fun and much more realistic to take control of Armies fighting over control of the burnt out remnants of the Empire. You could be land grabbing Bretonnians, vengeful Chaos, Dwarfs trying to stand for whoever their friends are, or the myriad petty dukes and princelings fighting for the Imperial thrown.

It would be pretty cool, yeah. What's stopping you from doing that?

I've always seen the fluff behind Fantasy and 40k as a starting point, a frame of reference for you and your gaming group(s) to do whatever you like with. If it look at it that way, a stagnant primary source is a good thing, as it's unlikely to clash with anything that's going on in your own little world. I dunno about you, but in my household Khemri has been getting it's butt handed to it by Chaos. Luckily the High Elves have just showed up to put them in their place.

If you have a cool idea, get some friends together and organize a campaign. I don't see why people need to see something printed in a book before they make it happen on their gaming tables.

Condottiere
22-01-2010, 11:18
Because it does require some effort to make campaigns, and unlike an RPG, you don't have a single individual with the ability to make unilateral decisions that keep the game on track, so that role is usurped by GW, whether voluntarily or not.

Since having a comprehensive set of rules and guidelines also helps sales, they are willing to oblige; but making ill considered ones creates irate customers. The situation is analogous to Apple.

yabbadabba
22-01-2010, 12:59
Because it does require some effort to make campaigns, and unlike an RPG, you don't have a single individual with the ability to make unilateral decisions that keep the game on track, so that role is usurped by GW, whether voluntarily or not. Either I have missed your point or I disagree. If you use any campaign system like Mighty Empires then the campaign will to an extent run itself and every player gets to arbitrator of their own strategy. All you then need to do is hex up a map of the area you want to trash.

Again this is another example of everyone caught up with what GW are doing and not focussing enough on their own hobby - or are we all gonna man up and admit we have no friends who play the game :evilgrin:

Condottiere
22-01-2010, 13:38
I'm going to man up and say that negotiating house rules is a difficult business at times, since there's a natural suspicion that they get interpreted in ways unfavourable to one self, and tend to pushed by the more extroverted.

yabbadabba
22-01-2010, 13:49
I'm going to man up and say that negotiating house rules is a difficult business at times, since there's a natural suspicion that they get interpreted in ways unfavourable to one self, and tend to pushed by the more extroverted.
Which is why you move away from the individual and get a commercial campaign system. There is no argument about the rules - outside the normal arguments about all rule sets :D

Condottiere
22-01-2010, 16:42
Yes, so that when we bitch, we can do so without offending those who actually execute those rules on the table.

Jedi152
22-01-2010, 16:51
To get back to the original point, people often forget that the background is written by games developers in an office, they aren't experts in ancient history.

Kholdaimon
22-01-2010, 17:17
Seriously, the OP is stupid or just doesnt think very much. If they would make countries/races dissapear they would greatly upset all the players that collected that army. They did it before with Chaos Dwarfs, Fimir, etc and people hated them for it, they wont ever do it again now the community is much more able to voice it's opinions online...

The world is 'stagnant', countries, empires and races will exist forever. The world isnt boring though, things do change and there is always strife.

Christiaan

N810
22-01-2010, 17:22
Fluf wise it makes more sense for Lizardmen city/temples to have lasted so long...
mostly because a lot of the Lizardmen and all of the slann are thousands of years old.
they don't usualy have a need to expand their teritory, and mostly only fight in self defense.