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BullBuchanan
18-05-2005, 18:10
So a couple weeks ago I finally figured out a way to defeat my opponents Bretonnian army, High Elf Magic. So I built my High Elf List and Dominated. The next week he threw magic resistance in all of his units, I won but by very little. These last two weeks have been unbearable. He has eliminated his only weakness. He now fields an army very similar to teh following.

8 Knights of the Realm @ 216 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Full Command; Barding; Knightly Vow

1 Prophetess of the Lady @ 330 Pts
General; Magic Level 4
Dispel Scroll [25]
Dispel Scroll [25]
The Silver Mirror [40]

1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts
5 Knights of the Realm @ 144 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Full Command; Barding; Knightly Vow

1 Damsel of the Lady @ 165 Pts
Magic Level 2
Dispel Scroll [25]
Dispel Scroll [25]

1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts
12 Grail Knights @ 536 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Full Command; Barding; Grail Vow
Valorous Standard [50]

1 Damsel of the Lady @ 155 Pts
Magic Level 2
Holy Icon [40]

1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

1 Paladin Battle Standard Bearer @ 139 Pts
Heavy Armour; Battle Standard Bearer; Knightly Vow
Virtue of Stoicism (1st) [35]
Banner of Defense [30]

10 Peasant Bowmen @ 60 Pts

10 Peasant Bowmen @ 60 Pts

1 Damsel of the Lady @ 145 Pts
Magic Level 2
Sacrament of the Lady [40]Casting Pool: 12

Dispel Pool: 7

He has essentially created a Magic List that stat wise is every bit as powerful as mine, his entire army has some spell resistance, he has 5 dispell scrolls, gets a 4+ ward on boltthrower shots, and on top of it all his mages are unattackable because they are positioned in the middle of his bretonnian lances(which is legal for bretonnians)

Honestly, I have no idea what the hell to do. I managed to defeat his grail knights in combat witnh a unit opf swordmasters, but his virtues allowed him to roll 3 dice and take the lowest two, and if he failed that, the paladins virtue of stoisism allowed his to re-reoll it.

I have no idea what the hell to do. His magic absolutely destroyed me, I didnt load up on dispell scrolls so lore of life domiated me ( my army is meant to move through woods and terrain easily). He has the Upper hand in magic, my shooting is non-existant with te chane Ill roll high enough to hit and wound a grail knight with my RBT, then he gets a 4+. Combat...I can only take 1 unit of swordmasters and white lions and they are effective, but unfortunately 2 units is not enough. The natural 2+ armopur save across teh board is just more to add to my frustration. Any advice here?

Riddy
18-05-2005, 19:46
I cant really comment unless you post the list you are using against it but his army only has 3 units that can do anything, i would just avoid the grail knights or try to bait them into a wood with a great eagle or something. THe 6 knight lance should be easy to get rid of and the 9 man should be easy enough if you combo chrge it in the front and flank. Just bog down his other two units and then eliminate them, if you manage to get the grails into a wood their movement becomes 4" a turn, so it should take a couple of turns atleast to get out of it, by that time you should have handled the other two units.

BullBuchanan
19-05-2005, 16:23
I cant really comment unless you post the list you are using against it but his army only has 3 units that can do anything, i would just avoid the grail knights or try to bait them into a wood with a great eagle or something. THe 6 knight lance should be easy to get rid of and the 9 man should be easy enough if you combo chrge it in the front and flank. Just bog down his other two units and then eliminate them, if you manage to get the grails into a wood their movement becomes 4" a turn, so it should take a couple of turns atleast to get out of it, by that time you should have handled the other two units.

You tell me what I need to field. My current list has to be scrapped because as is My magic is the same strength and my most powerful unit got annihilated when i charged his most powerful in the front and flank.

But just for fun I fielded...

Level 4 AM warhorse(Death)
Level 2 M warhorse(Heavens)
Level 2 M(Heavens)
Level 2 M(Ive experimented different things, High,Metal)

5 SH Heavy armor Shield (2+ AS)
15 Swordmasters(banner of Ellyrion treats diff terrain as open)
15 White Lions(Banner of sorcery +D3 PD)
10 Archers
15 Spearelves
1RBT

Thats basically it. Of course my mages were properly tooled up to maximize their magic, but unfortunately he could hunt my mages and with his hiding in units, I could not return the favor. I think I may try to add some special characters and see how that works(get rid of Level 4 AM and replace with Eltharion and Khorhil)
Im really at a loss of what to do right now.

Makaan
19-05-2005, 16:40
His lack of units will work to your advantage. Even though you play high elves he will have it difficult to stand up to your numbers. Scrap the shooting and most of the infantry, and do a heavy cavalry one instead. I really like the high elf infantery, and often field like 30 speamen and 20 swordmasters, but their cavalry and magic are the really good things in the list.
Try to take perhaps two units och silverhelms, maybe dragonsprinces (hopefully you can get a charge early in the game, due to ithilmar), and a couple of chariots for support on the charge.
And what about the magic? He stops you from using one of your main strenghts, but you can surprise him and take almost no magic at all. Most of his items will be useless in this way, you don´t need to have all those easy-to-kill mages, and can put more points on fighty characters and more units. High Elves got the best defence against magic (aside from dwarves and khorne) in the game, so load a lvl1 mage with anullian crystal or a couple of dispel scrolls. take a look at the magic items. Perhaps banner of the world dragon on you main cavalry unit? Other nice ones are Amulet of the p...., loremasters cloak, banner of arcane protection and more.

And also, you cant re-roll a re-rolled dice, so his stoic+valourus standard is not legal.

MarcoPollo
19-05-2005, 17:35
Instead of going magic heavy, go defensive magic and put those points into more units and more combat. If he can win the magic phase, then you better be able to win combat. Perhaps a battle standard bearer will also be in order.

I think there was a HE list from Australia that used that d6 CR banner and did well. But I gotta admit, that was a pretty good list he wrote.

xXxsaviourxXx
19-05-2005, 18:44
I understand your frustrations, that's why I advise this list:
Take al least two units of Silver Helms, furthermore Dragon princes would do nicely. An eagle to distract his units so that you can flankcharge him with some Silver Helms. Also take swordmasters and white lions for the GW bonus.
When you take your AM, try to let him use High Magic, wit the seer ability you can take vaul's unmaking to destroy some of his banners/other stuff. ALso give a mage the ring that casts Vaul's unmaking, after a few turns he will be out of Dispell scrolls.

Good luck

Neknoh
19-05-2005, 19:06
Well...

I do not know all that much about High Elves, though I do know people think Phoenix Guard as utterly useless... but here, here I see a point where they might WORK!!!

If the Knights of the Realm charges your Phoenix Guard, they will have to do a Fear Test on a normal humans Ld (Damsels does not exactly boost that Ld), which means that they might actually fail it, if so, they will only be hitting on 6's, while you, you now have them locked for an entire combat, you might even utilize that D6 extra Combat Res banner and see them runn.

If you manage to lock a big unit of Kotr, they are TOAST! A lance of 9 will have 15 cm flanks! Thats 6 Inches!

A Flankcharge by Dragonprinces might see them off.

Also, if you use Phoenix Guard, go for a nice little Dogs of War unit to place oposit of his Grail Knight block (remember, Grail Knights at that size is EXPENSIVE... and, they have manouvering problems). The DoW unit I am talking about is Pikemen, a BIG block with LOTS of Pikemen should do fine (though there is always the chance that you might not kill enough Grail Knights with your Strength 4... but with your 20 or so attacks, that shouldn't really matter).

A unit of 20 or 25 should do, lined up 5 wide, 4 or 5 deep, and do not forget to bring a banner.

This unit should start with a basic 4 in Combat Resolution, and, if you kill some Knights, you might earn more than just the Wounds, since you might get Outnumber as well.

You should be able to hold your ground unless you are in dire need of luck with your dices.

That RoR with Crossbows up front and pikes behind might be even better, a Stand and Shoot might kill a Grail Knight if you are lucky.

And do not be afraid to refuse Challenges with the GKs, a champion with a pike moved back the the 4th rank might still be able to attack if I remember correctly (him wielding a Pike and all).

A tactic might be to stand back, let him do the moving and you will see where he is going, since he has a hard time to wheel those big units

Sariel
19-05-2005, 19:11
Well, for a start, his Paladin BSB needs the Grail Vow to join the unit of Grail Knights. So, you can console yourself with the fact that your opponent has been whomping on you with an illegal list... :p

@Makaan - the other guy CAN re-roll his break test on 3 dice, picking the lowest 2 - the Valorous Standard makes the Knights cold-blooded, and the Virtue (OR the presence of the BSB) allows him to re-roll. Only thing is, the guy can only re-roll ONCE. (ie giving the Virtue of Stoicism to the BSB is a waste, but that's his problem...)

That being said, some of suggestions:

1) Drop the RBT, or get 2. 1 is just a waste of points - you won't get enough shots off, especially since you don't have very much shooting in your army (not that I blame you, since imho, High Elf are a waste of points....and even more so against Brets!)

Go for the easy targets first. First turn - hammer the unit of peasant bowmen with the Damsel. Depending on how well you roll, there's a chance you might even kill her outright.

Also, don't forget - Peasants CAN PANIC DAMSELS.

2) Like everyone else said, go with defensive magic - 2 mages, 2 scrolls and the Staff of Sorcery might help. Keep the mage with the Staff of Sorcery alive, since he'll be dispelling on +2!

3) Consider investing in a Prince on a Griffon (Dragons are just too darned expensive!). The other guy does'nt really have any shooting worth jack, so you only have to worry about all that magic.

Give him the Amulet of the Purifying Flame, and use the mage with the Staff of Sorcery to dispel any spells that might target him, and its an automatic +5 for all your dispel rolls (assuming the spell even succeeds in the first place).

Sariel
19-05-2005, 19:25
Try something like this.....

Elf Prince, Amulet of Purifying Flame, Blade of Sea Gold, Lion Guard, Dragon Armour, Shield, Griffon

Lvl 1 Mage, 2 scrolls
Lvl 1 Mage, Staff of Sorcery

Commander, BSB, heavy armour, Elf Steed with ithilmar barding

5 Silver Helms, musician (NO ARMOUR)
5 Silver Helms, musician (NO ARMOUR)
24 Spear Elves, full command, War Banner

12 White Lions, no command (count as special)

6 Dragon Princes, musician, standard, Banner of Ellyrion

2 RBTs

2 Great Eagles

RBTs sit tight and shoot. Concentrate on the unit of archers with the lvl 2 Damsel on foot first, or the unit that might panic her if destroyed/fleeing.

Use the Eagles to divert/march block the Grail Knights.

Cheap Silver Helms can either divert charges or set up for a flank charge on anything that goes for the infantry. They're slightly more useful than the Eagles, but ultimately, they're still expendable.

Spear Elves and Lion Guard move forward (or sit tight, depending on terrain). They should be able to take charges from either of the two Knights of the Realm units.

Mages work on magic defence - they can either join the RBTs, or hang out with the Spear Elves.

Prince swings down one flank, with Dragon Princes in support (BSB goes with them). The Prince is designed to charge into the Grail Knights (ideally in the flanks though he could just charge in the front, especially if the BSB is close by so he re-rolls any break tests on 10!) and hold them up for a turn or two.

Just make sure you have a unit in position to charge in to help out the next turn. Cavalry in the flanks/rear, infantry blocks to the front. The Valorous Standard isn't going to help very much if he needs to roll a 3 or 4 for his break test!

Then again, he can take his time - take out the rest of the Knights (and incidentally, the Damsels) first. You have 4 expendable units to divert the Grail Knights. If you're lucky, you might just terror the silly buggers off the table without even having to fight! (Ld 8 really isn't THAT spectacular).

And, when you finally get round to them....

Ideal situation for combat resolution:
Prince on flanks: +1 (incidentally negating any ranks for the Grail Knights)
Prince (and Griffon!) does 2 wounds, taking none in return. +2
Spear Elves charge. +3 for ranks, +1 for War Banner (feel free to direct attacks against his BSB while you're at it).
Outnumber: +1

Total combat resolution: +8, BEFORE killing the BSB. I think they just broke.....

MarcoPollo
19-05-2005, 19:56
Neknoh has some great points here. I always think of the statsitics of a unit rather than the manoeverability of a unit. It is for this reason that that huge unit of Grail Knights is more of a liability to him if you can distract it with sacrificial units. Thing

chivalrous
19-05-2005, 20:25
My biggest problem with High Elves is all those units that can move faster than mine, specifically Dragon Princes, Chariots (even if they can't march they can still charge 18") and eagles.
Eagles can always fly over the battlefield and land within 8" but outside the knights charge arc.
Dragon Princes and chariots, if you're very careful with your movement, can take full advantage of that extra 2" of charge movement and get the drop on his knightly units. You'll have an added advantage in that he'll only get 3 attacks back when you charge him.

samw
20-05-2005, 00:52
First of all as a bret player myself, and errantry war at that, I would like to say how truly horrible that list of his is, he gives us chivalrous brets a bad name!

Anyway, first you have to come to terms with something, you WILL NOT beat that grail knight unit. Don't charge a chariot at it, it will bounce off and give them a free puruit move. Don't charge dragon princes, they will die. I often don't care if I get charged by enemy cavalry, as I know my armour, ward, ranks and outnumber will probably see me through.

Firstly, get the ring of corrin and get Vauls Unmaking with two of your wizards. Proceed to switch off all those unsporting magical doo-dahs. Use Drain magic and fortune is fickle to stop the wizardesses.

Remember with the RBTs the banner of defence is missiles of st5 or more, fire 6 shots instead, st4 armour piercing weaponry is my bane. Also remember that in units of less than five troops you randomise hits from shooting between them and the characters, so the damsel's not wholy safe in that small unit. Take at least two, possibly more as this numpty hasn't got pegasus knights, by far the best unit in the list.

I also agree whole-heartedly with the griffon, (though don't underestimate peasant archers) I had a bad experience with a winged nightmare. Now my lord rides a hippogryph :) . This however does restrict your magic somwhat, but your call.

In short, sit back and shoot. Your aim is not to tie him up or defeat him in combat, the job of your units is to feint, flee and divert to give you more time to shoot him. No blocks of expensive infantry, no banners to give 100 victory points, give him nothing to get stuck into. The griffon can go to finish the job on depleted units, as can smallish units of your own cavalry. Don't just fight this match on points either, fight it on table quarters, remember they're 100 points apiece, and guarded only by his peasants.

hope that helped!

Artemis_Quinn
20-05-2005, 04:14
I personally don't see the massive problem. If he's expecting one thing simply do another. My point is, if he's expecting you to field your regular list switch it up on him. Field a combat oriented list to throw him off, no mages period.

Mine would look similar to this:

Prince on dragon 541 pnts.
w/ blade of sea gold, helm of fortune, enchanted shield, and amulet of puyfying flame, and HA

Commander (for Princes) 161 pnts.
w/ BSB, Lionguard honor, HA, Steed w/ ithlmar barding

Commander (for Princes) 137 pnts.
w/ loremaster's cloak, pure of heart, GW, HA, shield, HA, Steed w/ ithlmar barding

10 Dragon princes 350 pnts.
w/ full command, champion w/ blessed tome, warbanner for standard bearer

(x4) 8 Silver Helms (x4) 205 pnts.
w/ Standard, musician, HA, sheild

2009 pnts (I don't know how big your playing but I guessed it to about 2000 points, take out whatever you like so your not over)

Basically this list will completely blindside him. He's expecting magic and shooting while you come in with tons of combat.

Here's the strategy:

Flank charge the Grails with your dragon rider and front charge them with anything elseI don't even think the frontal charge is fully necissary, it just helps. Your prince alone will probably kill 2 guys, and the dragon may be able to get one himself (or two even) a lot of this and he can't really take that. So keep his other units tied up with silver helms so your prince can do his job. Basically you start resolution up by 4 (3 kills plus a flank) while he starts at plus 2 in the end (outnumbering and standard) so you don't have to worry about reasolution. And I know they're unbreakable or something, but the dragon won't be running and they can't turn to face unless they at least tie a combat (I think though I'm a little rusty)

The dragon princes can take any other unit he has. The way they are designed they Won't run from combat ever. LD10 re-rollable breaktests, stubborn, immune to panic. Plus, they can reach the opponent fairly "fresh" due to that awesome cloak. Then on the charge they are just ruthless not to mention the great weapon attacks and the warbanner bonus. So, I'm saying on a charge you can probably do some pretty lethal damage (I'm thinking 2-3 kills because of good strength and large number of nasties in the unit) when he gets his 3-4 attacks back (plus horses) it's probably not gonna be enough.

The silver helms are just mobile filler units. They can take knights on during a charge and they have a descent save, they will also help to make him second guess charges.

Overall I feel this list will dominate his terribly (due to the blindsiding his anti-shooting and magic list with a list with none of the above). And i know it's a little unfair since you know what he's gonna feild, but imagine the look on his face when his grail knights are getting beat down and your dragon princes just won't run :p

Paybacks are just fun like that

Roman
20-05-2005, 17:36
(x4) Silver Helms (x4) 205 pnts.
w/ Standard, musician, HA, sheild
eeh... huh?? Unitsize of silver helms are 5+

Besides, I dont think its really friendly to make a list purely based on your opponents list. I personally think most heavy cavalry HE lists would be able to do the trick.

Sariel
20-05-2005, 19:31
Basically this list will completely blindside him. He's expecting magic and shooting while you come in with tons of combat.


Um. I really don't think its a good idea to leave ALL your magic at home. Thing is, this guy's Bret list has 10 power levels and between 12 and 14 power dice. Sure, its pretty solid on the magical defence, but that's a LOT of OFFENSIVE magic he can throw at you.

The Amulet of Purifying Flame and the Loremaster's Cloak will help a great deal when it comes to dealing with the attack spells (Wood/Stone/Thorn), but Howler Wind and Mistress of Marsh stand to mess you up even more....




Basically you start resolution up by 4 (3 kills plus a flank) while he starts at plus 2 in the end (outnumbering and standard) so you don't have to worry about reasolution. And I know they're unbreakable or something, but the dragon won't be running and they can't turn to face unless they at least tie a combat (I think though I'm a little rusty)


Um. Well, Grail Knights are immune to psychology, and there's a pretty good chance that he's just going to keep challenging and challenging and challenging... but yeah, can't disagree about the combat resolution, and no they can't change formation to get into combat unless they win.

Cheesejoff
20-05-2005, 20:35
Actually you mgiht be able to beat grail knights in a head on charge. IIRC you can't challenge against impact hits? So if you line up two chariots and a dragon mounted prince, you can play the waiting game. You have a longer charge range. IIRC brets dont get ranks when they are charged, either. So if they charge, their CR is basically outnumbering and standard, plus any wounds they scrape off the chariots. You have a fairly reasonable chance of beating him with all those hits.

Sariel
20-05-2005, 21:21
Actually you mgiht be able to beat grail knights in a head on charge. IIRC you can't challenge against impact hits? So if you line up two chariots and a dragon mounted prince, you can play the waiting game. You have a longer charge range. IIRC brets dont get ranks when they are charged, either. So if they charge, their CR is basically outnumbering and standard, plus any wounds they scrape off the chariots. You have a fairly reasonable chance of beating him with all those hits.

Nah. Bret lances still get their rank bonus even if they get charged. The only thing they loose is all those extra attacks from the guys in the back - ie, only the models that are in base-to-base contact will get a chance to fight back.

That being said, two main problems with using chariots -

1) There's still all those power dice floating around during the other guy's magic phase. T4 chariots don't mix well with S4/S5 magical attacks. You really don't want to wait around TOO long.


2) There is simply no way to fit a unit of 10 Dragon Princes and 2 chariots into base contact with a Bret lance. Not from the front, at any rate. Of course, hit them in the flank and you won't even NEED the chariots.

Charging two chariots into the Grail Knights are risky - you kinda need to roll really well for the impact hits, and then have him fail miserably on his 4+ armour/5+ ward saves.

Same goes for charging a chariot and 10 Princes - unless you're going to clip with the chariot, you're only(!) going to get 3 Dragon Princes into combat. Once again, it pretty much hinges on your impact hits. Good chance, but roll badly, and things are'nt looking so good..

Of course, if your Prince on terror-causing flyer (Griffon or Dragon, does'nt really matter) is waiting on the flanks.... :D

Cheesejoff
20-05-2005, 21:30
Actually I meant a prince on a dragon :p And yeah, if the grail knights were lured out with some mounted wossnames and the dragon-mounted prince got behind them...

Sariel
20-05-2005, 21:48
Actually I meant a prince on a dragon :p And yeah, if the grail knights were lured out with some mounted wossnames and the dragon-mounted prince got behind them...

WHOOOPS! :p

Yeah. Prince on dragon (suitably equipped, of course) and 2 chariots would do the job pretty nice.

To build on that... a commander in a chariot and a Prince on a dragon would be nice too. Especially if you manage to bracket the Grails - chariot to the front, Dragon to the side (which isn't too hard for a flyer) - you pick which one you want to take in the flank.....

Eldacar
21-05-2005, 14:12
Uranon's Thunderbolt could work well against the Grail Knights. Even though he has a lot of magic defence, if you get one or two of those through onto his Grail Knights, he's in trouble. I'm a bit rusty on Bretonnians, but since Uranon's Thunderbolt is S4, the Bretonnian Blessing won't go to a 5+ from it's hit. And since the thunderbolt ignores Armour Saves, all you have to do is wound them.

gortexgunnerson
21-05-2005, 17:28
I personally would go a different way! He has so many points poored into the magic phase that if you could control it you would take the game. High Elevs have so many good magic items relating to the magic phase, I would play something like this

Lv4 Book of hoeth 335

Lv2 Ring of Fury, Dispel 180

Lv2 Seer, channeller, silver wand 180

Lv2 Book of corin, jewel of dusk180

2 Bolt throwers 200

2 eagles 100

19 Swordmaster 342
Com, banner of sorcery, Amulet of pufifying flame

8 Shadow warriors 120

5 Shadow warriors 75

5 Silver Helms 95

5 Silver helms 95

5 Silver helms 95
1997
Power dice 12+ D3
Dispel dice 7 with +1 to dispel


Basically the mages hide in the shadow warriors and 1 in the swordmasters, (not arch mage). The skirmishers provide very good protection as played correctly should never be forced into combat but so few units. Thier are a number of useful lores you can take with your archmage obviously heaven and life are very affective witht he new rules, but if you fancy a bit of a laugh beatss could be fun! Keep casting the eagle cry, witht he book of hoeth you are quite likely to get ultimate force focing the grail knights to take a Ld test on 8. If passed they get -1 M if they fail they run towards the nearest table edge. This is not a psychology test and hence they are not immune, the bit about automatically passing any Ld test forced to take is old rules new rules page 112 only state they are never affected by psychology (found this out when someone starting running my dire wolves of the battle field lol). But this is abit of a cheap shot but so is his army lol

The other wizards I would give mainly magic missiles/attack spells so heavens/life/fire use these to hammer the lesser units and most importantly his 2 trebuchets! they need to die and die quickly.

I woudl use the light silver helms like fast calavry as 1 hunting party threaten with 2 preferable 3 units from different directions and then charge the one that is in flank etc.

Deal with the grail knights like any other powerhouse unit, tie them down with the eagle cry spell reduced move and 2 eagles making them move 7" a turn for the whole game. If he does trap you put the eagle in front of his unit at an angle. When he charges he must line up with you then overrun off into the distance. Key to remmeber is he has to charge to which ever side he has the greatest unit strength to.

The swordmasters are in for 3 reasons, firstly they are the coolest high Elf unit and therefore should always be taken, 2nd they actually can kill knights sostand a chance in combat Wolf hunts usful from law of beast to move these guys or silver helms into flanks) and lastly they have the banner of sorcery which gives extra dice for archmage to reak havoc. The amulet of purifyiig flmae is also better then magic resistance as forces him to use more dice therefore increased miscast potential.

Deployment:
As far back as possible without cutting off escape routes (DO NOT LINE UP 12" ON), preferable behind scenary. As he is fast so will have to rapidly decide which way round terrain he's going just walk round the other side using non LoS spells. your skirmishers hiding your magic missile wizards can run through woods etc and wipe out trebuchets and peasents before turning on knights.

Silver helms start apart but so cn cover each other so units threatening one can be charged by the others. V shapes are good for this as when they threaten the other limbs you can change to ^ and threaten the flank. Also remember that units can go backwards, you can turn for 25% or your move twice at 180 degrees which means that you silverhelms can move 4" back in key moments where your not sure if they are in charge range.

Neknoh
21-05-2005, 17:37
We must not forget...

or is it me who has forgotten...

Anyway.

The Thunderbolt can target Characters inside units... am I not correct on this?

If so... bye bye Really-Expensive-Prophetess-of-über-hard-magical-defence-for-Grailkights-and-rest-of-his-army.

Especially if you cast it with Irresistable Force

Sariel
21-05-2005, 18:32
We must not forget...

or is it me who has forgotten...

Anyway.

The Thunderbolt can target Characters inside units... am I not correct on this?

If so... bye bye Really-Expensive-Prophetess-of-über-hard-magical-defence-for-Grailkights-and-rest-of-his-army.

Especially if you cast it with Irresistable Force

Nope - you don't need LOS, but it just means you target units that are normally immune to missile fire (ie single models that are within 5" of a friendly unit with more than 5 models so long as its not the closest target blah blah ).

Thunderbolt is still distributed as shooting, which means that unless he's got less than 5 Grail Knights left, the Prophetess isn't taking any hits.

Sariel
21-05-2005, 18:44
Thier are a number of useful lores you can take with your archmage obviously heaven and life are very affective witht he new rules, but if you fancy a bit of a laugh beatss could be fun! Keep casting the eagle cry, witht he book of hoeth you are quite likely to get ultimate force focing the grail knights to take a Ld test on 8. If passed they get -1 M if they fail they run towards the nearest table edge. This is not a psychology test and hence they are not immune, the bit about automatically passing any Ld test forced to take is old rules new rules page 112 only state they are never affected by psychology (found this out when someone starting running my dire wolves of the battle field lol).



Except that every time you target the Grail Knights, you're giving him an extra 2 dispel dice, which kinda negates your advantage in power dice..

Not to mention the fact that you're leaving your own mages open to a miscast. As for rolling doubles, well... depends on the spells you get, no?






Deal with the grail knights like any other powerhouse unit, tie them down with the eagle cry spell reduced move and 2 eagles making them move 7" a turn for the whole game. If he does trap you put the eagle in front of his unit at an angle. When he charges he must line up with you then overrun off into the distance. Key to remmeber is he has to charge to which ever side he has the greatest unit strength to.



Well, sort of. The Knights will have to align to the Eagle, so if you do it right, you can draw them off to the side. On the other hand, he does not HAVE to overrun - they are'nt frenzied. He'll have to test to restrain his Knights from pursuing (on Ld 8), but he won't have to overrun if he butchers the Eagle on the charge.




The swordmasters are in for 3 reasons, firstly they are the coolest high Elf unit and therefore should always be taken, 2nd they actually can kill knights sostand a chance in combat Wolf hunts usful from law of beast to move these guys or silver helms into flanks) and lastly they have the banner of sorcery which gives extra dice for archmage to reak havoc. The amulet of purifyiig flmae is also better then magic resistance as forces him to use more dice therefore increased miscast potential.



Three points:

1) Again, you're assuming you get the spell, and the spell goes off as far as the Wolf Hunts goes - not something you want to count on.

2) These guys are also the weakest link in your army - high points, not QUITE as mobile, and if they get charged, they're probably toast. Heck - his ARCHERS are going to have a field day shooting up Swordmasters. They're the softest targets in the list!

3) The Amulet of Purifying Flame is nice. Trouble is, you're assuming that the other guy is dumb enough to KEEP trying to hit them with magic. Shadow Warriors are so much easier to hit. And since none of the MAGES have magic resistance....

BullBuchanan
22-05-2005, 01:21
dont forget the Magic resistance 3 on the grail knights.....

gortexgunnerson
22-05-2005, 01:45
wasnt forgetting the magic resistance hence the book of hoeth, the odds of not rolling a double are 60/186 which is under a third so about 2 in every 3 spells cast on 4 dice will get off. Miscasts really arent too bad to a 3W wizard obviously not wanted but not too much of a problem. Aalthought the odd of miscast are pretty high so maybe 3 dice would be better then 4, however the odds of ultimate force are much higher.

And yep SW are likely armoured hence why i suggested hidingthe swordmaster til missile threat had been removed

There are tactics with most spells hoever their is a reasonable chance with 4 wizards of getting the spells you want and also a seer wizard to choose key spells from certain lores. I think you misinterupt the intentions of the army. I was merrly suggesting the Eagles cry as a bit of comic cheap shot to break the army. Magic should be concentrated ont he units containing the 3 Lv2s as they are poorly defending and will cripple the arch mage sue to lack of dice. the on in the peasent bowmen shouldnt last the first turn. And if you can bring the knights unit down to 4 and the damsel in the magic pahse 2 bolt throwers in and randomise hits, reasonably chance of taking the lady out with a single shot or by using 2 multishots average 8 hits (within 24") gives 1 maybe 2 hits on her a turn. Going to be dead real quick!

But this list is no means perfect its just how I'd deal with the list or infact most types of army when using high elves, played correctly your magic will rule the game. But obviously army lists are effected by playing style and personal taste.

Eldacar
22-05-2005, 02:24
These guys are also the weakest link in your army - high points, not QUITE as mobile, and if they get charged, they're probably toast. Heck - his ARCHERS are going to have a field day shooting up Swordmasters. They're the softest targets in the list!
If you want to keep the Swordmasters safe, all you have to do is deploy a unit of Shadow Warriors in front of them as a screen. Problem solved.

Rabid Bunny 666
22-05-2005, 02:44
i'd just use hte skirmisher/mage combo and hide in woods incushonong him

or use the seafarer bow to kebab skewer the mages :evilgrin:

Cheesejoff
22-05-2005, 11:57
Uranons thunderbolt is probbaly the best spell for taking out his knights, you just need to wound on 3's and he only gets a 6+ save. Although you may have to max out on power dice to get it off.

therisnosaurus
22-05-2005, 12:24
okay, version 1:

prince: griffon, heavy armor, lance, shield, helmet of fortune, pure of heart
angry flanker big daddy of doom.

mage, level 1, annulian crystal
caddy

captain, lion guard, heavy armor, battle standard ithmilar steed
this guy is very handy, as any unit he joins becomes ld9 stubborn with re-rolls. so it changes from grailknights autosmashing them on the charge to grailknights hitting, stopping suddenly, followed by the sudden wet thud and squishy trampling noise of them being countercharged on both flanks and rear.

10 silver helms with HA, S and full command
10 silver helms with HA, S and full command
your basic cavalry units, can be used to attack bret kights, peasants or joined by the captain can act as speedbumps.
5 silver helms
5 silver helms
these guys are pretty much there to force charges and be flankers- run them forward, flee from the charge, and charge yourself, or use them to negate ranks, or even hunt down archers if you have to

11 dragonprinces, full command including drakemaster with amulet of purifying flame
generaly nasty chaps- used to smashup bret knights with their longer charge range and generaly reek havoc

2 tiranoc chariots: with their long charge range and automatic strength 5 hits, another unit great for mashing up knights.

2 giant eagles: march blockers, trebuchet eaters and so forth. can also accompany and support the prince (not that he needs it :P)

okay, that army fights fire with fire- designed to get the charge and take it without running. make sure you use the TERROR and flanking from the griffon to best effect while steering clear of magic as much as possible.

version 2:

prince: swordmaster, armor of the gods, guardian phoenix
if general, goes with white lions, with a strength of 7 and some nasty smashing ability, he should be able to dish out some serious carnage

commander: lion guard, heavy armor, great weapon
stubbornmaker 1

commander: lion guard, heavy armor, battle standard
stubbornmaker and re-roll giver 2

mage: dispel scroll, amulet of purfying flame
caddy. goes in a unit likely to be magicified and valiantly hides up the back.

20 spearmen with full command
20 spearmen with full command
your core holding units, each of the captains goes in one of these making them stubborn and ld 9, probably with re-rolls.

10 spearmen: champion, standard, warbanner
flankers, have them near your spearmen but out of valid charge reach, but close enough that they can flank any charging units of knights.

19 white lions: full command, banner of arcane protection.
if your general is your prince or mage, he goes in here, giving you a third stubborn unit (preferably ld 10 with re-rolls, but I'm not picky)
if your general is one of the captains, these guys are flankers.

repeater bolt thrower
repeater bolt thrower (free choice)
repeater bolt thrower
repeater bolt thrower (free choice)
well, it's not as if he isn't asking for it :P. 24 strength 4 armor piercing shots into his grail knights will ensure that he doesn't hang up the back and hide from you. inside 24" that's an average of slightly more than 10 wounds a turn, and with 5+ armor saves and 6+ wards (or 5+ mebbe) that's about 6 or so dead grailknights :P
apart from this ability, the bolt throwers ensure he will move towards your stubborn units (deploy the bolt throwers behind them) who can easily hold and then win the next round of combat.


overall, this army simply deploys in a clump, the three stubborn units (spearmen with lionguard captains and lion guard with general) in the centre, spaced so the RBT's can shoot between them, and the small unit of spearmen on the side to flank should the need arise you are probably going to suffer a little from magic, but you have enough (1 scroll, 3 dice with a +1 to dispel, 1 unit with the amulet and your guard with the banner) to hold off the worst. this army is deceptively resilient- more so than most dwarf armies, and you can count on them to hold to that feared brettonian charge. just make sure your characters don't get killed...

so, who said HE infantry can't be effective... :P

therisnosaurus
22-05-2005, 12:25
oh, and remember you can hide at the back from refusing a challenge and you won't lose stubborn or the BSB effect- make sure you do so if need be to stop your characters dying