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GutterRunner
08-12-2009, 14:27
Noticed they no longer say one use only, so does that mean they are useable every turn? I found the old price of 10pts fine for a extra dice you get once, and which on a 1 gives you a wound which cant be saved. Now it is more expensive and still has negatives, so can't see why there is a problem with them being used more than once if that is what they intended, there are far more unbalanced choices in other books.

nosferatu1001
08-12-2009, 14:32
One use only, as you consume the token according ot their rules. If you consume the token you cannot still have it - literally you cannot have your Token and eat it ;)

In short: yes, they are rubbish. Take powerstones.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
08-12-2009, 14:37
Well, you can have multiple Warpstone tokens, so I think you're kind of missing the OP's point.

nosferatu1001
08-12-2009, 14:44
No, I'm not missing the OPs point - the OP wants to eat the token and still have the token, two states that arent compatible.

Their usefulness in the game, and how many you can have, isnt really a consideration.

diggerydoom
08-12-2009, 14:48
But the entry does not say 'one use only' therefore it can surely be used more than once?

nosferatu1001
08-12-2009, 15:04
For each token consumed

How do you consume something and still have it to consume it again next turn? It does not need the words "one use only" because alternative language gives you that restriction already.

Covalent
08-12-2009, 15:08
Maybe he takes 10% of the token and keeps the rest for another meal? :rolleyes:

Nosferatu is right, it's one-use only, OR (and it won't happen imo) until FAQ'ed to say that the word 'consume' wasn't meant to be there and that tokens are not one-use only ;)

Atrahasis
08-12-2009, 15:11
Note that the item is called "Warpstone Tokens" and the description does not say "consume the tokens" but "consume some warpstone".

It isn't as clear cut as the one-use-only crowd would have us believe.

That said, I fully expect it to be made one-use-only in the FAQ, probably with some condescending claptrap about the description being completely clear.

nosferatu1001
08-12-2009, 15:30
Atra - which is why I quoted the bit below which states "For each token consumed"

Also cf to the entry for Grey Seers, where they start with D3 Tokens - thus indicating the item name is just indicating the existence of more than one token :)

shadow hunter
08-12-2009, 15:55
Which all makes warpstone tokens a bit useless (considering price and risk). I used powerstones instead too.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
08-12-2009, 16:06
Atra - which is why I quoted the bit below which states "For each token consumed"

Also cf to the entry for Grey Seers, where they start with D3 Tokens - thus indicating the item name is just indicating the existence of more than one token :)

This is what I'm saying - and I cannot believe that there is even a question about this. If a Grey Seer consumes all the Warpstone tokens he has at once, why would the player roll for D3 of them at the beginning of the game?

Reading the magic item description gives me the same results. It's clear that a Grey Seer can buy multiple tokens, they can start with multiple tokens (depending on their roll), so why would that mean one use and they're all gone? And if you're talking about one use per turn, it also specifically talks about "for each token consumed."

How is this confusing?

Covalent
08-12-2009, 16:09
No, we meant one-use for each token, not for all the tokens.

Tauren
08-12-2009, 17:48
To me the above makes it pretty clear and arguing against it seems against the spirit of the game and against clear textual logic:

First off it says "Tokens", meaning multiple. In the description it states that the character carries multiple "tokens".

Secondly no where does it state "One use only"

Third from a power level stand-point, the item is worse than a power stone, doesn't do as much and might hurt your caster, to make it worth ever taking it has to be more than 1 use.

Lastly... COME ONNNNN! COME ONNNNNN! Really? Honestly? Truly? pshhh...

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
08-12-2009, 18:01
I'm sorry, it appears I have been mistaken this whole time. Multiple uses for EACH token? That's ridiculous and you're ridiculous for arguing it. =) Why would they specifically say you can buy more than one and give Grey Seers D3 to start with? It doesn't make any sense.

Lord Zarkov
08-12-2009, 18:04
You could use multiple per spell I suppose (giving a grey seer potentailly +13 extra dice per spell). Doesn't seem likely though

Although the fact that the token is 3/4 the cost of a poer stone, for half the number of dice and the ability to cause extra wounds on you does seem a bit off.

Yellow Commissar
08-12-2009, 18:21
I agree that there is some ambiguous wording here, BUT.... The "For each token consumed a Wizard can add a single dice to his casting effort." sentence seems exceedingly clear to me.

That being said, I can see that the item seems poor when compared to powerstones. Perhaps the author intended them to be d3 tokens for each 15 points, I don't know. For now, though, I have to say that, yes they are obviously consumed when used, and ,yes, they suck, so don't use them. :rolleyes:

Malorian
08-12-2009, 18:33
When you keep in mind the 13th spell, and how a lvl 4 caster's PD and the pool only give and average of 21 when you need a 25 to cast, I can certainly see it having it's uses even if it is one use only.

EviIPaladin
08-12-2009, 18:55
When you keep in mind the 13th spell, and how a lvl 4 caster's PD and the pool only give and average of 21 when you need a 25 to cast, I can certainly see it having it's uses even if it is one use only.

But why wouldn't you just take a Power Stone for 5 more points? It gives you an extra die over the Tokens and no chance to wound yourself. I mean, what the hell is the point of it being there for?

-Evii

Malorian
08-12-2009, 19:43
Well depending what other items you take you might not have those extra 5 points.

(Just to be clear, I'm not saying warpstone tokens are better than powerstone, I'm just saying that they aren't toally useless ;))

Covalent
08-12-2009, 21:29
When you keep in mind the 13th spell, and how a lvl 4 caster's PD and the pool only give and average of 21 when you need a 25 to cast, I can certainly see it having it's uses even if it is one use only.

The more dice you take (I think over 4), the less chance you got to successfully cast The 13th spell because you increase the chance of a fiasco even more.

Best way to cast this off is to get 2 6's, which is just fine with 4 dice ;)

Aaaand, at the moment, yes, warpstone tokens are useless. As for the D3 thing, note that Thanquol gets D6+2 tokens at start, so the whole "D3 powerdice per token per I don't know what" has no sense :rolleyes:

Atrahasis
08-12-2009, 21:52
No, the chances of failing to cast don't start to go down again until 9 dice, so 8 has the "best chance" of casting at 52% or thereabouts.

Malorian
08-12-2009, 22:38
Best way to cast this off is to get 2 6's, which is just fine with 4 dice ;)

It's my understanding that double 6s isn't enough and you still need to meet the casting value, and has been gone over many times due to Teclis.

melgorth
08-12-2009, 22:49
Hmm I thought that was because it is specified in Teclis' rules that he has to meet the casting value? I don't recall that applying to the irresistable force rule in the rulebook.

Lord Zarkov
08-12-2009, 23:05
Melgoth is correct - Teclis & book of Hoeth specifically say that the spell has to be cast, whereas normal IF does not.

Plaguelord Deathspasm
08-12-2009, 23:28
To me it seems like Warpstone Tokens are like powerfamiliars that you can have multiples of, they cost less because they can hurt you. For 15pts you get 1 extra power die per magic phase. If you purchase 2 warpstone tokens you get 2 extra die per magice phase. The more warpstone you consume the more likely you caster will kill himself. I mean doesn't it say for things like the brass orb, and doom rocket that they are 'one use only'? If it does not say so in the warpstone tokens entry then it would make sense that they can be used all game.

Lord Zarkov
08-12-2009, 23:33
Interstingly Dispel Scrolls and Power Stones are specified as "One Use Only" and they can also be taken in multiples.

nosferatu1001
08-12-2009, 23:57
It's my understanding that double 6s isn't enough and you still need to meet the casting value, and has been gone over many times due to Teclis.

Your understanding is incorrect, this is neither a rule in tehe BRB or elsewhere

Teclis is different to normal IF

Aljoman
09-12-2009, 11:32
Interstingly Dispel Scrolls and Power Stones are specified as "One Use Only" and they can also be taken in multiples.

Also of note is the fact that they are listed as 'Dispel Scroll' and 'Power Stone' singular vs Warpstone Tokens.

If they are supposed to be one use only they have left 'out one use only' (possibly not the first time), if they are multiple uses they have left the rules very ambiguous (again not the first time).

nosferatu1001
09-12-2009, 11:48
And you can only definitely show permission to use them once, and therefore that is the only option you have.

Meris theorem ;)

Malorian
09-12-2009, 15:19
Your understanding is incorrect, this is neither a rule in tehe BRB or elsewhere

Teclis is different to normal IF

All of a sudden I'm WAY more scared of the 13th spell...

Tarian
09-12-2009, 18:59
Yeah, if my Grey Seer has 2 dice left and nothing else to cast, he'll throw them out hoping for double 6's on Curse of the Horned Rat. I would also like to see an official ruling on this as they seem a bit underwhelming for their point cost.

nosferatu1001
09-12-2009, 20:44
There is an obscene number of things in that book that are entirely underwhelming

warlock weapons are far, far worse.

KayazyAssassin
10-12-2009, 08:49
i may be confused but don't power stones still follow the rules for casters only being able to throw around so many dice per spell. warpstone tokens on the other hand don't follow this rule so the possibility to throw around a lot of dice in one turn with the possibility of blowing up in a shower of fireworks

Atrahasis
10-12-2009, 08:51
You are indeed confused.

shadow hunter
10-12-2009, 10:40
Why does everyone think the warlock weapon terrible?

Its the same cost as the sword of might and extra attack sword combined (and it has the same effect as both). Maybe 5 pts cheaper would be nice - but its nice to be able to combine those two items as one weapon.

nosferatu1001
10-12-2009, 13:27
because there are better options out there?

GutterRunner
10-12-2009, 14:53
sorry i started this and dissapeared. anyways, I also forgot to add in the last edition it said one use only, and as others have said, many items in the list have one use only in the rules, and seeing as one use only is a universal rule across books, well, until they FAQ this I expect my opponents to **** off and accept the written rule, as I have heard it enough from many other players.

But, I expect the FAQ to do to this what they did to IG with FRF SRF and hot shot lasguns, that even though they technically fall within the rules, too much complaining will force them to just outright say no.

jospoon
17-02-2010, 06:30
so as of current before the FAQ comes out, how is it played?

for example my Thanquol rolled 5 for his warpstone tokens at the beginning of the game.

1) do i get additional 5 warpstone (power) dice in each of my magic phase?
OR...
2) do i always get an option to use up to 5 warpstone (power) dice for each spell I attempt to cast?

Tae
17-02-2010, 07:10
so as of current before the FAQ comes out, how is it played?

for example my Thanquol rolled 5 for his warpstone tokens at the beginning of the game.

1) do i get additional 5 warpstone (power) dice in each of my magic phase?
OR...
2) do i always get an option to use up to 5 warpstone (power) dice for each spell I attempt to cast?

or c) you get 5 warpstone tokens for the entire game, once you use each one, that's it, it's used.

Also, re the OP - every other language version of the Army Book states one use only, so I would expect it to be amended to read as such in the FAQ comes out.

Haravikk
17-02-2010, 13:39
IMO they're still useful as only a single power-stone can be used on a spell, meanwhile if you have five warp tokens then you can use all five on a single spell if you wish, and in addition to a power-stone I believe?

Even if the warp-tokens are then used up, that's some pretty serious spell-casting potential if you're not afraid of a wound or two. I suspect the intention is that they are one-use only.

Mr_Rose
17-02-2010, 17:02
On the topic of warpstone tokens; do the ones Grey Seers get for free count as Arcane Items for the purposes of the Beastmen magic item "Stone of Spite"? Because that could end up being very bad news.

Actually, make that a general point about the Skaven that can buy Magic Items from their equipment list; do those items count as magic items for the purposes of effects that affect magic items exclusively or differently?

Atrahasis
17-02-2010, 17:29
Yes and yes.

The Grey Seer's entry, where it says that they have D3 Tokens, refers us to page 108 - Arcane Items.

The same is true of all other magic items named as equipment - they're magic items for all purposes.

Mr_Rose
17-02-2010, 18:20
So a Grey Seer could potentially be suffering an extra 3D6 S4 hits from the stone of spite, over and above whatever staffs and scrolls he has on him? Ow.
Yeah, assuming the stone goes off unhindered and he's in range etc. but still...

Tae
17-02-2010, 20:46
So a Grey Seer could potentially be suffering an extra 3D6 S4 hits from the stone of spite, over and above whatever staffs and scrolls he has on him? Ow.
Yeah, assuming the stone goes off unhindered and he's in range etc. but still...

It's a stupid player indeed who lets a dispell scroll(s) blow up their mage because of a bound item.

Desolate
24-02-2010, 04:04
Yeah, if my Grey Seer has 2 dice left and nothing else to cast, he'll throw them out hoping for double 6's on Curse of the Horned Rat. I would also like to see an official ruling on this as they seem a bit underwhelming for their point cost.

You can't throw dice at a spell that you can't actually succeed at, per the Dark Elf FAQ

"Q. If a Dark Elf Sorceress has leftover dice from
the Power of Darkness spell at the end of the
magic phase, can she use them to attempt to
cast a spell where she cannot actually succeed,
thus avoiding the damage from the leftover
dice when the phase ends? For example, if she
has one die left and can only cast Black Horror
that has a casting cost of 12+, can she say she
is attempting to cast it with only the one die,
knowing the attempt will fail?
A. No she cannot. She better make sure she
has an easy spell left to cast or suffer the
consequences."

Ultimate Life Form
24-02-2010, 05:38
:mad::mad::mad:

I'm really getting mad now! CAN we please finally accept that IF IS achance for the spell to succeed? It's exactly 2,78%.

And for GOD'S SAKE, stop quoting the DE (Army Book!!!!!!) FAQ (sometimes incorrectly) in an attempt to bypass rules from the BRB!

I'm tired of this popping up in every single thread I read! The next one who does that will be reported for trolling!

The_Bureaucrat
24-02-2010, 06:04
I don't know if I have ever seen it quoted correctly.

Bodysnatcher
24-02-2010, 07:48
They trialled the Skaven FAQ at the UKGT Final. Amongst other things warpstone tokens were one use only.

WRT the Dark Elf FAQ quoted above. Yes, you can't throw 1 dice at a spell that needs a 7+ to cast because there's no way for it to succeed, but you can throw 2 dice at any spell because there's a 1in 36 chance(or 2.78% chance as ULF pointed out) of it succeeding.

Atrahasis
24-02-2010, 08:27
I've yet to see any solid evidence that the FAQ used at the GT Final was a trial of the "real" FAQ.

Given that we weren't allowed to see it, and the Direwolf submission had only gone in 2 weeks earlier, I doubt the final product will bear much resemblance.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong.

Desolate
24-02-2010, 13:54
:mad::mad::mad:

I'm really getting mad now! CAN we please finally accept that IF IS achance for the spell to succeed? It's exactly 2,78%.

And for GOD'S SAKE, stop quoting the DE (Army Book!!!!!!) FAQ (sometimes incorrectly) in an attempt to bypass rules from the BRB!

I'm tired of this popping up in every single thread I read! The next one who does that will be reported for trolling!

I have never thought about it like that, and I think in that context you are correct. I withdraw my previous post.

My bad!

Ultimate Life Form
24-02-2010, 15:25
I have never thought about it like that, and I think in that context you are correct. I withdraw my previous post.

My bad!

Alright, I also withdraw my angry reaction. :p

I may have overreacted a bit, and I apologize (I rarely do), but I'm simply driven insane by having to read the same false statements over and over again (at least you quoted the FAQ instead of just making up stuff, for which I give you great credit).

Skyros
24-02-2010, 21:10
or c) you get 5 warpstone tokens for the entire game, once you use each one, that's it, it's used.

Also, re the OP - every other language version of the Army Book states one use only, so I would expect it to be amended to read as such in the FAQ comes out.

There is so much in the Skaven book that needs FAQ'ing it's not even funny.

RAW is pretty simple: if an item doesn't say one use only, it's not one use only. The 'fluff' behind it is more or less irrelevent. Maybe he's not consuming the 'whole' bit of warpstone, etc.

I expect them to be made 'one use only' in the FAQ as I think that was clearly the intent, but that doesn't mean you can claim they are listed as one use only currently.

Tae
25-02-2010, 09:23
There is so much in the Skaven book that needs FAQ'ing it's not even funny.

RAW is pretty simple: if an item doesn't say one use only, it's not one use only. The 'fluff' behind it is more or less irrelevent. Maybe he's not consuming the 'whole' bit of warpstone, etc.

I expect them to be made 'one use only' in the FAQ as I think that was clearly the intent, but that doesn't mean you can claim they are listed as one use only currently.

Good luck finding a regular opponent and/or playing at a tournament if you're going to try and play Warpstone tokens as not one use only when their failure to be listed as such is clearly a typo due to their historical classification as such and their classification as such in every other language version of the Skaven codex

[Edit] Just to clarify, I'm not disputing that it is,in the strictest rules lawyering sense, in the English codex not a one use item. I'm simply stating that given all the external factors common sense dictates that, for once, RAI overrides RAW.

Atrahasis
25-02-2010, 16:33
What you mean to say is, you consider your opinion more important than the rules. ;)

jaxom
25-02-2010, 16:43
when their failure to be listed as such is clearly a typo due to their historical classification as such and their classification as such in every other language version of the Skaven codex


I'm sorry? I know the Stormbanner is One Use in all the other languages. I have not heard this claim regarding Warpstone Tokens. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Haravikk
25-02-2010, 19:26
I'm not sure that an omission from a language translation of the book is valid as an argument? Assuming the book was translated from the English edition then any mistakes made there are liable to be translated across.

Only additional information included in the translations should be considered, or alternative wordings that shed light on the rule(s) differently.

Covalent
27-02-2010, 00:31
I'm sorry? I know the Stormbanner is One Use in all the other languages. I have not heard this claim regarding Warpstone Tokens. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

I got it in french and there are no such thing as 'one-use only' for the Warpstone tokens.

Nurgling Chieftain
27-02-2010, 01:30
What you mean to say is, you consider your opinion more important than the rules. ;)Heck yeah. We actually play the game, or at least a reasonable facsimile. It's patently obvious from the battle reports that the designers consider their opinions more important than what they themselves wrote down, too. :p

Sooty13
18-03-2010, 23:10
POWER GAMER ALERT. Common sense please. One token- one extra die- you eat it. Its gone. STOP WITH BEARD. your Skaven not Dwarf act like it. If you dont like the item dont use it.

Atrahasis
19-03-2010, 09:51
I predict you will go far.

Ultimate Life Form
19-03-2010, 10:22
I predict you will go far.

Hehe... Nice one. :p

Yes, we are Skaven, so interpreting the rules in our favor is exactly what we do.

And for the last of us who still haven't gotten it, we have an erratum that makes them a) one use only and therefore b) completely useless compared to Power Stones. Yay for crappy items.

Sooty13
20-03-2010, 11:28
oh yeah! Crappy is the deffo what they are. If i have a spare 15 points available then maybe. but for only 5 points more its got to be the power stone.

Harwammer
20-03-2010, 14:03
Its not completely useless; you can't double drop power stones but I believe you can stack a stone with a token on the same cast?