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Darkmaw
08-12-2009, 15:34
My "Full of Win" list

1 Plague Priest on Plague Furnace+ Flail+ Dispel scroll + Poison Attacks
1 Plague Priest on Plague Furnace+ Flail+Dispel scroll + Poison Attacks
12 Plague monk pushers


1 Plague Priest on Plague Furnace+ Flail+ Poison Attacks
1 Plague Priest on Plague Furnace (General)+ Flail + Poison Attacks
12 Plague monk pushers

10 Stormvermin with Stormbanner
3 x 20 Clanrat Slaves

2 x 6 Plague Censer Bearers

2 x Hellpit Abomination with Warpstone spikes


The 2 furnaces are arranged such that 2 are placed side by side with a 6 frontage and 12 monks are arranged behind the 2 furnaces. No command so the configuration is valid.

Since the weakness of the Furnace is actually the furnace, therefore having a duplicate furnace ensures the unit holds to allow counter charges.

6 Dispel dice and 2 Dispel scroll for magic defense for first 2 turns. Stormbanner to stop all shooting attacks, hence forcing the enemy to contact or be contacted! (bad choice).

The PCB acts as hammer. The Abominations can act as hammer or hold the flanks.

Any comments? :evilgrin:

OldMan
08-12-2009, 15:49
12 pushers is too little. Slaves are prone to panicking and furnace can be targeted by all manner of stone throwers as it is large target. You can easily loose those pushers despite storm banner.

Besides, don't you think that switching one HA for a doomwheel might be a good trade?

Darkmaw
08-12-2009, 15:56
Yeah i agree that 12 pushers is a bit small but i am starved for points.

The fact that 2 PF occupies ALL the frontage means the monks can never be hurt unless the unit is flanked. And it doesnt matter much because you only need the furnace to survive to be unbreakable.

Doomwheel is not stubborn, 50% of the time has to shoot the bolts while the

Abom is stubborn (a good flank holder) and has a 360 charge.

The question is now since both Furnaces in front are Large target, can they still shoot at the monks despite not having LOS to them???

Foegnasher
08-12-2009, 16:15
Yeah. Not going to waste my breath on this. If you want me to tell you why this thing is going to get destroyed by anybody with half a brain, PM me. This is not a skaven army. You're playing with toys.

martijn
08-12-2009, 16:20
i agree, it all just doesnt seem right,

Darkmaw
08-12-2009, 16:29
it all just doesnt seem right,

Mind i ask what doesnt seem right?

If anyone has easy counters/ways to destroy this army as Foegnasher said, i would like to hear more since i am always finding ways to further improve upon this list.

Foegnasher
08-12-2009, 22:28
dude you gotta have guys on the sides to push. it's how it's always been, now you MIGHT be able (at least until the FAQ) put two furnaces in a single unit, but it is still a huge point sink and easily frenzy bait. so you turn each of your big units on thier side, flank them, and then kill the monks down to 5 or less... and they are stuck. after the stormbanner wears off in a turn or 2, (at most) then the cannons finish you off.

you got no ld.

you got no ranks.

you got no bsb, which actually doesnt effect this list, since it's all stubborn and unbreakable. again. not skaveny at all.

your few drops are all inconsequention and entirely at the mercey of your opponent who can dictate what fights what. since your big units are both mr 2, the censers and stormvermin will get the brunt of the magical onslaught your opponent brings. which is exactally what you dont need to happen.

you got 4 frenzied units and nothing to screen them with, they are gonna get dragged everywhere. see point 1. those big units will NEVER make thier points back.

the only thing you got that is good are the hell pits, but you brought two, so your list sux anyway. one is great, two is too much, it's the same with hydras, engines of the gods, doomwheels, blood knights, etc. they are too good.

same with the furnaces. they are cool, but any more than 1? well it just sounds like a waac list. so 4 furnaces, and two hell pit a-bombs?

quit wasteing our time. if you actually brought this to the table, i'd let you set up and then conceede so i could go play against someone who wanted to have fun.

scrap this piece of junk and play a real army. quit trying to break the book and get cheap wins through loopholes.

warhawk95
08-12-2009, 23:28
this isnt even WAAC, go against a slann list, or gateway and this list is done with only 1 scroll. Anything with a magic phase will just destroy this list. Use a non LOS spell on the bsb unit, then shooting is open. Dark elves would just crush this army wit 40-50 shots going into the hell pit and plague monks, and enough magic to crush your slaves,stormvermin, and censors. My woodies would have a blast here, my alter would suicide into the bsb kill him. Have my lvl 4 treesing to block your hellpits and furnaces. Then i would dance and shoot your plague monks. Treeman and wildriders attack the hellpit. lizzies would have a a great day. let the slann cast magic, skinks can shoot down the hell pit, engine will just destroy the priests. This list isnt good, you have magic defense. No units, your list is easy to bait, and your relaying on something that will be changed (stormbanner). sorry if this sounds a bit harsh but this list is pretty easy to beat and it really doesnt take much though as to what can kill it.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
09-12-2009, 02:28
scrap this piece of junk and play a real army. quit trying to break the book and get cheap wins through loopholes.

I agree with this sentiment if you are not intending to take this list to a tournament like 'ard boyz or throne of skulls.

warhawk95
09-12-2009, 03:02
If I was 'ard boyz or any other hard core tourney I would love to face this list, its not hard it would be toren apart by any top tier army especially DE and DoC.

Zarroc
09-12-2009, 06:08
dude you gotta have guys on the sides to push. it's how it's always been, now you MIGHT be able (at least until the FAQ) put two furnaces in a single unit, but it is still a huge point sink and easily frenzy bait. so you turn each of your big units on thier side, flank them, and then kill the monks down to 5 or less... and they are stuck. after the stormbanner wears off in a turn or 2, (at most) then the cannons finish you off.

you got no ld.

you got no ranks.

you got no bsb, which actually doesnt effect this list, since it's all stubborn and unbreakable. again. not skaveny at all.

your few drops are all inconsequention and entirely at the mercey of your opponent who can dictate what fights what. since your big units are both mr 2, the censers and stormvermin will get the brunt of the magical onslaught your opponent brings. which is exactally what you dont need to happen.

you got 4 frenzied units and nothing to screen them with, they are gonna get dragged everywhere. see point 1. those big units will NEVER make thier points back.

the only thing you got that is good are the hell pits, but you brought two, so your list sux anyway. one is great, two is too much, it's the same with hydras, engines of the gods, doomwheels, blood knights, etc. they are too good.

same with the furnaces. they are cool, but any more than 1? well it just sounds like a waac list. so 4 furnaces, and two hell pit a-bombs?

quit wasteing our time. if you actually brought this to the table, i'd let you set up and then conceede so i could go play against someone who wanted to have fun.

scrap this piece of junk and play a real army. quit trying to break the book and get cheap wins through loopholes.

Actaully, i doubt he could win with this rubbish list.... LOL

Darkmaw
09-12-2009, 10:42
dude you gotta have guys on the sides to push.

Errr the last i checked the book it under Pushed into battle (for both screaming bell and furnace). It doesnt say that there must be guys on the side to push. I assume you are an experienced Skaven player so might i ask where is this rule you quoted?


Also i realised that indeed the number of plague monks should be increased, therefore i think 1 Hellpit Abomination can be dropped to buy more monks for the 2 units.


this list is done with only 1 scroll. Anything with a magic phase will just destroy this list.

Well FYI there are 2 scrolls in this list and while not optimal (since the max number of dispel dice in a 2250 army is 7, this list has 6). Also to note, the PF has MR(2) and the Aboms have (MR1).



my alter would suicide into the bsb kill him

Seriously there is no BSB in this list and if you were referring to the Stormbanner carrying Std bearer, the next guy picks it up.


************
Seriously people, if anyone here hates the army from a fluff point of view, go ahead. But i am asking for tactical advice here. Geez....

warhawk95
09-12-2009, 13:08
What tactical advice? this is point and click. I could give this to someone who has never played and they could beat most lists with it. So you want my tactcal adivce. Move your troops foward, there i know its hard, about has hard as making this list but i think you can manage.

I did misread the list, and I apologize about that. I could still see fast cav or my alter flanking the vermin and then breaking them and dropping the banner. Same result. Then its just about killing the monks so the furnace cant move and cannons or other warmachines can drop the hellpit. If it was my woodies I wouldnt even bother Id kill the stormvermin then shoot and run. Be alot of fun but not many people are going to want to engage anything in this list so thats how most good players will play it.

EndlessBug
09-12-2009, 14:10
don't you need a miniumum number of monks to push the PFs? remember every monk in contact with your furnace' at the start of each and every combat phase dies on a 6. with 2 in each unit, it's 6 tests a turn (each PF touches 3 monks), 1 dead per turn.

You're relying on the storm banner far too much. If it fails on the 2nd turn then their light shooting will pepper the monks and grind the PFs to a halt.

warhawk95
09-12-2009, 14:44
4)Tactics? I know you just didn't use the T word. This is the biggest pile of point and click bullsh#t I have ever seen. And you are talking about TACTICS? Tell you what. Build a all core list. No magic no shooting. Then you can talk about the need for tactics. This piece of crap you built does one thing. It goes forward, and kills anything stupid or slow enough to stand in front of it. Tactics? You gotta be jokeing.

Foegnasher champion of people who use tactics. And I agree 100% (as I said) you just took it to that level of what I was thinking and didnt type.

Gokamok
09-12-2009, 15:13
People on Warseer REALLY need to calm down once in a while. If you don't like the list, there's still no reason to be rude to the person who posted it.

This being said, I don't think it is GWs intention that you can have 2 Furnaces/Bells in the same unit, nor do I think it is intended that Bells/Furnaces can take up the entire front rank, but let's leave that to a FAQ.

I think this list will have huge problems against any kind of avoidance armies, since the 2 main blocks can relatively easily be baited into unfavorable positions, while the support units are picked off. As for the 2 HPAs, some armies can deal with them, others cannot. It's pretty much the same deal as Hydras, Wraiths, and so on.

The concept of 2 unbreakable blocks of Plague Monks with PCB support is interesting and might work rather well, but I think you'll be better off with only 1 furnace in each, and then spending the points on more Monks and support units.

gerrymander61
10-12-2009, 06:10
People here are so angry. Like, this list is advertised as "Full of Win." If that doesn't tip you off about what Darkmaw is going for, then you my friend are a sillyface.

Tactically and Listwise? I'm with Oldman here, you should swap out 1 Abomination for a Doomwheel because they are quite good. Since you have so few units, you should have no problem whatsoever keeping it away from your troops. You can use the 100 points to buy another slave unit, (40) and then a unit of 5 Gutter runners (60) because as stated before, you will have trouble with warmachines and frenzy-baiting. Alternatively, you could use the 100 points to beef up your pushing units and buy some more dispel scrolls, because while you do have admirable magic defence, when you're playing a very, eggs-in-one-basket-y, it can never hurt to have too many scrolls IMO.

EDIT: This is probably one of the most disgusting lists I've ever seen anywhere and I hope you take it as the compliment as it is since you're obviously going for ridiculous. Let me know how well it does. I bet it'll be hilarious

Darkmaw
10-12-2009, 11:39
Thanks to gerrymander61 and Gokamok for having a genuine interest in this discussion.

I agree the lack of monks is a bit liability (a quite a mistake here) which is why i have decided to drop one of the HPA for more monks (equates to 33 monks split between the 2 units. )


every monk in contact with your furnace' at the start of each and every combat phase dies on a 6.

That is if the Plague priest carries a censer (which i have opt to remove from the list). If you are talking about the Furnace T tests, its D6. Still i think 2D6 T tests (from 2 furnaces) should obliterate most chargers (which also means i need more monks!)



I think this list will have huge problems against any kind of avoidance armies

I agree totally which is where i hope the 2 PCB and 1 HPA with their 360 LOS can hope to take them out. Also i am thinking of buying the Shadow magnet trinket with some of the points (after dropping 1 HPA)



It's 10 stormvermin! How hard do you think they are going to be to break or panic? Really? Your master plan revolves around a unit of 10 skaven sticking around? You're new here, arn't you?

Yeah i am new so i guess i really need to state that the 10 Stormvermin is meant to carry the Stormbanner and hide in a corner. I think the Furnaces and Abominations and PCBs are more of a distraction than the 10 SV carrying the banner.


but the bell entry says something to the effect that it has to be placed "centrally in the unit". That means stuff on the side. If you are a visual learner look at EVERY picture of ethier the bell or the furnace in the book. Dudes on the flanks. The 6th ed book had a diagram. I guess they wanted to save ink but in doing so somehow let you think you were a special snowflake and that you saw something in the rules that noone else did.

There is no need to be rude just because you cannot find the supporting evidence. There is no reason why 2 Furnaces cannot be both deployed in front counts as 6 frontage and both are as centrally as possible. Oh now we talking 6th ed book and visual rules eh...wow just wow.

warhawk95
10-12-2009, 11:56
I
I agree totally which is where i hope the 2 PCB and 1 HPA with their 360 LOS can hope to take them out. Also i am thinking of buying the Shadow magnet trinket with some of the points (after dropping 1 HPA)

The PCB will be shot as will the HPA, or the HPA will be ignored. Its a very random unit with its movment. You cant really count on it to move the average because it could move move more or less.





Yeah i am new so i guess i really need to state that the 10 Stormvermin is meant to carry the Stormbanner and hide in a corner. I think the Furnaces and Abominations and PCBs are more of a distraction than the 10 SV carrying the banner.
No. If I was playing this list that SV would be my first target with magic, fast cav everything. Because once that unit is done you can be shot at and then your army will struggle. Either drop the unit completelty or get some more SV 10 will not do much with a fast cav in the flank.




There is no need to be rude just because you cannot find the supporting evidence. There is no reason why 2 Furnaces cannot be both deployed in front counts as 6 frontage and both are as centrally as possible. Oh now we talking 6th ed book and visual rules eh...wow just wow.


I really dont understand your reasoning for putting 2 furnaces in one unit? I mean even I am RAW and dont see it that way. Regardless if I was your oppenent I would argue you need twice as many units to carry two furnaces meaning below 20 rats and it doesnt move.So still its a fragile unit. Drop one out of each unit it. Get some more troops clan rats, some weapon teams.

Witchblade
10-12-2009, 12:27
*adds Foegnasher, warhawk95 and Zarroc to Ignore List*

@ the illiterate angry fluff monkeys: this thread is about a 'full of win' list. Leave your fluff nonsense for the background forum. This is about optimizing an army list to win games.

Oldman made good remarks. I'd try as hard as possible to keep your 2 HPAs or 1 HPA + 1 Doomwheel, because they are sick. Beef up your pushing units with the points spared by switching a HPA for a Doomwheel.

As for redirecting your frenzied units, I think in practice this won't be such a big problem, if you use your slaves well and move carefully. You have so many serious threats in your army it's hard to neutralize them all. Plus, opponents in tournaments will be pressed for time and wouldn't expect or know how to deal with such a list at the moment. This will change in the future, of course. Still, it's risky.

Myztyk
10-12-2009, 13:31
We've been talking about lists like this at my LGS. We're pretty much agreed they're legal, they will be ugly and will be tough to deal with until FAQ'ed or until the meta game catches up to expect lists like this.

Enjoy lists like this while they last...they are plenty of ways to deal with them, many of which have been mentioned here. However, out the gate, these lists will do pretty well.

Darkmaw
10-12-2009, 15:13
I really dont understand your reasoning for putting 2 furnaces in one unit? I mean even I am RAW and dont see it that way. Regardless if I was your oppenent I would argue you need twice as many units to carry two furnaces meaning below 20 rats and it doesnt move.

Reason is because a single Furnace unit suffers from 2 fatal flaws.

The first being the actual Furnace slain in combat.

Example if i have 5 bloodknights/Hydra/Khornate Knights charging this unit in the front, if i manage to survive the T tests. I would surely direct all my attacks on the Furnace, killing it (hopefully) instantly. And the unit is now down by 6 wounds and loses its "unbreakable" status. Win-win situation.

The second being the monks getting slain in combat and as such the unit cannot move.

By placing the 2 Furnaces side by side, the monks cannot be attacked. Hence they are "safe" in combat at least until 1 Furnace is slain. But even in that situation, the unit is still unbreakable due to the 2nd furnace , which hopefully a counter-charge/flank is available.

As to RAW, I like to point you to the Warhammer FAQ Part 2 Feb 2009. The part under Placing Characters inside the Unit. Its wordy but once you read it, you will understand why (PF being Characters with mounts) this is legal. The only point where this configuration is illegal is when there is a command group which HAS to be in the front.


The PCB will be shot as will the HPA, or the HPA will be ignored. Its a very random unit with its movment. You cant really count on it to move the average because it could move move more or less.

I'd try as hard as possible to keep your 2 HPAs or 1 HPA + 1 Doomwheel, because they are sick. Beef up your pushing units with the points spared by switching a HPA for a Doomwheel.

Well all good points..

I guess shooting at HPA is unavoidable which is where hopefully the Stormbanner can be used (even if it is played as one use..for that crucial turn). Its really hard to ignore a HPA...just like ignoring a Hydra or Steamtank.

I would take a HPA over a Doomwheel anytime for THIS armylist simply because the glaring weakness of the 2 Furnace blocks is their flanks! The plan is to move the whole army as a phalanx. Having a lone Doomwheel is deviating from the plan.


We're pretty much agreed they're legal, they will be ugly and will be tough to deal with until FAQ'ed or until the meta game catches up to expect lists like this.

Imho, the current skaven army(any list/build)'s weakness are skirmishers and big flying monsters. The loss of Jezzail's 360LOS, Skirmishing NR and gutter runners competing for valuable special slots has further compounded this problem. These were also considerations taken when planning this list. Hence original plan to take as many 360 LOS units.

I tried out weapon teams (not the new Ratling gun though). Their randomness hardly makes them "reliable" for taking out skirmishing armies (that is if they don't blow themselves up).

In all honesty, i feel this list might not be able to hold up to optimized DOC/DE lists.

warhawk95
10-12-2009, 15:45
[QUOTE=Witchblade;4201967] @ the illiterate angry fluff monkeys: this thread is about a 'full of win' list. Leave your fluff nonsense for the background forum. This is about optimizing an army list to win games.

[QUOTE]

And if you read my posts you would see that I showed why this list isnt full of win.

@darkmaw

This list is still going to struggle IMO. Any form of magic heavy army is going to kill your stormbanner and then just force spells through. A 10 PD army will get stuff through on this army, any more and your in trouble. Especially a WoC gateway list which can easily get 12 or 14. A spam raise list would love this, get your hell pit in a tar pit with zombies. Bats and dogs will distract the plague censors and then he will tie up your furnace. With no hammers it will be a grind match you cant win because his troops come back and yours dont (plus you have T tests to deal with). Dark elves avoidance list will have a blast shooting and running against the furnace, same with woodies. And both those armies have plenty of fast cav to get the stormvermin off the board. Highelves would love this list, star dragon will cause terror test on storm vermin flea, take out hell pit. Swordmasters can cut up plague censors with ASF.

Your relaying on all your eggs in 2 baskets that can easily be made immobale, a storm banner that will be FAQd, and hellpit who has random movment. In the current meta i dont see this doing well. The top tier armies are DoC (too much magic or a blood thirster both will have a field day), avoidace darkelves (see above), typical LM list which can hide in terrain cast spells and shoot poision darts at the hellpit, terradons take out stormvermin, since furnace cant go in terrain you loose, High elves (see above). I think you need to reconsider your options, one furnace is more than enough same with the hellpit abomination. Get more troops on the table (giant rats are nasty), doomwheels to take out big stuff if your hell pit decides to not do anything. Rat ogres arent bad and can hit hard. some more magic (grey seers are good and can be not too expensive).

RichBlake
10-12-2009, 19:23
Firstly let me just say that while I am a competitive player and my Fantasy list I use is generally "cheesey" it,s not actually tournament worthy, it's just scary because it runs two steam tanks and 60 handgunners. Yes it sounds cheesey but it's really not (come to stoke and I'll prove it if you doubt me :P).


My "Full of Win" list

1 Plague Priest on Plague Furnace+ Flail+ Dispel scroll + Poison Attacks
1 Plague Priest on Plague Furnace+ Flail+Dispel scroll + Poison Attacks
12 Plague monk pushers


1 Plague Priest on Plague Furnace+ Flail+ Poison Attacks
1 Plague Priest on Plague Furnace (General)+ Flail + Poison Attacks
12 Plague monk pushers


These two units would die about turn 3/4. I would charge each one of them with a single steam tank causing 5D3 S6 impact hits distributed like shooting. What would happen is that I'd kill like 6-8 plague priests in the first round, then I'd kill the rest, then I'd smash up the furnaces.

The fact you rely on the whole plague thing wouldn't bother the Stanks as they automatically pass all toughness tests and T6 with a 1+ save sort of laughs at most CC things you could do (AFAIK).


10 Stormvermin with Stormbanner
3 x 20 Clanrat Slaves

The Stormbanner is actually really nasty, but unreliable. In my particular list I'd be trying to whittle this unit down with pistoliers from up close.


2 x 6 Plague Censer Bearers

Meh, they are alright.



2 x Hellpit Abomination with Warpstone spikes

Double abomination is a nasty combination, it's what I advised my friend to take. Thinking back now actually I think the Stanks would have to hold off the abominations via cannon fire along with my great cannon. It'd basically come down to whether or not my cannon fire works for me on the day.

Personally I think this list is one of those "Funny to see, can be good, gets beaten by a good player and/or the right list".

For instance my mate runs Teclis in his high elf list. What good is your Magic Resistance going to do to his "Every double is Irrisistable Force" rule? Nothing thats what :P Fair enough not much can stop him, but you're left wide open to magic if they can get it off. Likewise the horror filled daemon list that generates like 28 power dice will laugh at your magic resistance as they get extra power dice every time you dispel one of their spells.

Shooting wise it is all about kill the stormbanner, if that goes you're screwed. My personal list would struggle to do that but there are plenty of lists that wouldn't (like the list I'm halfway through writing that has Karl Franz on a dragon and two steam tanks). If the Stormbanner goes you'll die in about 2 turns from a gun line.

Against CC armies you just don't have the ability to move that you'd need to combat it. My friend runs a list with two massive units of Cold One knights tooled up, they get like 30 attacks on the charge. To be fair though if he fluffs his rolls they'll be stuck with the furnaces all game.

Seriously mate, this is one of those lists where you write it for the point of going "Wouldn't this be a laugh?" and then don't do it. I wrote a list for 40K where I had 8 leman russes in 1500 points. It's funny but you put too much into a few units which, while in theory powerful, can easily be stopped.

I'd advise you to drop this list not because it's cheesey, just because i think it sucks against good players and lists.

You may disagree with me, but the only way to find out will be to build the list, and if you want to spend like 140 quid on furnaces to find out that you'll only ever use one max then well, sucks to be you :P

Scarella
10-12-2009, 19:54
Pretty nasty list, looks like a wall of terrain moving towards you with all them furnaces...

But the one thing is can they actually move? You need at least 10 models to move one bell/furnace and having two of them in one unit seems to say you would need 20 to move both as a fair exchange for having two of them in one unit.

Foegnasher
10-12-2009, 20:52
*adds Foegnasher, warhawk95 and Zarroc to Ignore List*

who were you again?




@ the illiterate angry fluff monkeys: this thread is about a 'full of win' list. Leave your fluff nonsense for the background forum. This is about optimizing an army list to win games.

i was trying to help.

i like to think of the hobby as a whole. we want to be able, have some laughs, push someminis around and have a good time.

this is really hard when you have people trying to get a unfair advantage because GW forgot to put the "oh yeah, only a real A##hole would try this" sentence in thier already huge book. we both know that this was never how these things were intended to be used, yet you keep trying to legitmize it.

fine. go ahead. i am glad i dont have to play you. i am really sad, however, that once again people will get the wrong idea about this game. it is not about WINNING every game. it is about haveing an ENJOYABLE TIME with your opponent. and this list is not enjoyable for your opponent, it'll be downright boreing to face.

you go ahead. this list is not what you think it is. it is "full of *****".

Loki73
10-12-2009, 22:27
Needs at least 120 more rat-things! Then full of win! To many furnaces though.

Foegnasher
10-12-2009, 23:01
Needs at least 120 more rat-things! Then full of win! To many furnaces though.

well, loki, you seemed to have summed up my argument quite nicely.

well done.

silveryfox
11-12-2009, 13:53
I love lists like this, good work!

Sure, not fluffy, but again that is not the point. It's an intellectual challenge, I'd say, not meant for everyone apparently.

warhawk95
11-12-2009, 15:00
I love lists like this, good work!

Sure, not fluffy, but again that is not the point. It's an intellectual challenge, I'd say, not meant for everyone apparently.

ROFL....that made me laugh thanks for the joke. I pray you are being sarcastic, this is the definiton of point and click. Nothing against that if thats how you want to play be my guest, but again there are plenty of armies (if you read my posts and many others) that will tear this apart. Especially because the creator is going for a WAAC list it doesnt stand a chance. thanks again for the laugh though.

gerrymander61
15-12-2009, 16:52
ROFL....that made me laugh thanks for the joke. I pray you are being sarcastic, this is the definiton of point and click. Nothing against that if thats how you want to play be my guest, but again there are plenty of armies (if you read my posts and many others) that will tear this apart. Especially because the creator is going for a WAAC list it doesnt stand a chance. thanks again for the laugh though.

I think he's referring to the making of insane lists without regard for fluff or balance.

As for whether or not this list stands a chance... The only ones I can really see it suffering against are wood elves, Kairos armies, and... pretty well just those. And since you never see all that many wood elf armies at tournaments anymore, it's really just Kairos armies that you need to watch out for. Then again, if you can show me a list (that isn't another Kairos list) that is as full of win as this one and isn't vulnerable to a Kairos list, well, I'd have to ask you what the hell you're doing on the forums and not out dominating the tournament scene.

reu666
15-12-2009, 22:07
From my experiance of playing against and with skaven armies, i think that the army might struggle with missile heavy armies. I also think that the two plague furnaces could be deavstating but perhaps not in normal sized games as the skaven army relies on numbers and the furnace just takes up too many points.

captainAurelius
15-12-2009, 22:22
This is a disgraceful list. Although the intellectual challenge part made me laugh.

Xynok
15-12-2009, 23:12
I think my 1K army uses roughly the same amount of dudez as this list...

Still about the original post where you say about abombs holding flanks/hammering - they're just not easy to manouvre, the chances of co-ordinating this are very slim

Also 12 guys pushing... that's not going to work... ever... Suddenly a guy shoots/magics you down, and you have 2 furnaces sitting there doing nothing.

Even though I think this is a terrible list, I don't think it'd work well anyway

Zarroc
17-12-2009, 23:08
who were you again?




i was trying to help.

i like to think of the hobby as a whole. we want to be able, have some laughs, push someminis around and have a good time.

this is really hard when you have people trying to get a unfair advantage because GW forgot to put the "oh yeah, only a real A##hole would try this" sentence in thier already huge book. we both know that this was never how these things were intended to be used, yet you keep trying to legitmize it.

fine. go ahead. i am glad i dont have to play you. i am really sad, however, that once again people will get the wrong idea about this game. it is not about WINNING every game. it is about haveing an ENJOYABLE TIME with your opponent. and this list is not enjoyable for your opponent, it'll be downright boreing to face.

you go ahead. this list is not what you think it is. it is "full of *****".

As i said before, i doubt this ****** list could pull of any wins against a good player... LOL id have a field day with it, only things you need to take out would be the 2 HPA, and i doubt that be hard :)

I could beat this list, well massacre this list, with my VC's, DE's and skaven any day of the week

shredshredxx
18-12-2009, 05:35
scrap this piece of junk and play a real army. quit trying to break the book and get cheap wins through loopholes.

gnasher,

you mind if i sig this??

i adore it.

Foegnasher
18-12-2009, 13:24
gnasher,

you mind if i sig this??

i adore it.go right ahead. the more people .sig my wisdom, maybe the less of this crap we'll see.

Grunge
18-12-2009, 13:56
Dude, this list must rock! Look at all the free hate it has generated!

Plus it would really look nice on a table.


Other than that, care to elaborate on why this list isn't fluffy (I have little knowledge of Skaven lore)? But please, refrain your mindless anger towards cheese until a FAQ comes out saying that double furnace isn't allowed.

gerrymander61
18-12-2009, 17:39
As i said before, i doubt this ****** list could pull of any wins against a good player... LOL id have a field day with it, only things you need to take out would be the 2 HPA, and i doubt that be hard :)

I could beat this list, well massacre this list, with my VC's, DE's and skaven any day of the week

Brilliant. You'll prove how weak this broken list is using two armies with already well established abilities to be broken and WAAC. Clever.

NorthStigUnited
18-12-2009, 21:23
I'll have to agree with the people who said this list would have a lot of trouble. I also agree there are armies that could really have some troubles against this, but there are some glaring problems.

1) Storm Banner doesn't stop all missile fire, merely mitigates against it. And I mean that in 2 ways; first off enemy archers and war machines can still fire at you. That means a army with multiple stone throwers / cannon / trebuchet will just need one 4+ roll to land a cannonball or giant rock on your plague furnaces. All it would take would be 1 lucky cannonball shot across your big slow unit to scrap both plague furnaces in a unit. Or 2 stone thrower shots. Or more likely a couple average cannonballs / stones. And oh yeah, the Storm Banner runs out on 4+, which would suddenly open up all the artillery and gunfire onto that expensive unit. Don't put too much stock in it solving problems against shooting.

2) Central units are frenzied, with a movement of 5, and the inability to move across obstacles and difficult terrain really. They're useless if someone is, say, across a river or in a woods. And they're going to get baited into horrid combat, charged in the flank and rear, and generally redirected and avoided. And if someone DOES charge it in the front, then what's supposed to happen if they have a character that is worth issuing a challenge with? You do realize the plague priests can't avoid challenges right on the furnaces? With only two wounds each and them not being tooled out for close combat at all really, any challenge they're in will leave them smooshed quick. Which will quickly start leaving you magically defenseless. Oh yeah, and the wrecker attack only works against the front arc, so those flank charges really kinda leave the plague furnaces hanging attack-wise.

3) The hell pit abominations are a nice idea, but for 500 points of your army are too unreliable; they have random movement, random attacks, and are neither immune to psychology nor unbreakable (all be it stubborn and terror causing). They're going to be tough to kill sure, and they have potential, but for 500 points, you want something more... predictable I would think.

4) The slave units are going to run quick, being only Ld.5 ranked up. Ld.4 if they even take one casualty. Unless you park them all somehow within range of the plague priest that's your general of course. Which would limit their maneuverability. Really, the strengths of slaves are only sorta the numbers they bring and more the facts they can be shot into and the fact they don't cause panic tests. And your army doesn't benefit from either of those two things.
==================

That all said, I can see the strengths; anyone in front of those plague furnace units, regardless of whether your priests get killed or not in challenges, will be getting monk crew attacks, poison cloud damage, and wrecker attacks up the ying yang. And the Storm Banner, while certainly not infallible, is a nice touch to help protect things.

To keep in the spirit of the list and downplay some of its weaknesses, a few suggestions;

A) Beef up the monk units pushing the bells. With only 12 monks, all it takes is 3 dead skaven and you'll start seeing movement penalties. And really, there are a lot of ways to lose 3 skaven. This is especially easy since I'd imagine the plague monks units will be taking 2D6 toughness tests a turn rather than a single D6, due to there being two furnaces.

B) Try to replace slaves with clan rats. That way they don't need to lurk near your general to be quite as effective. The clan rat units would be much less likely to flee, more effective in combat, and you're not really losing anything off the slaves at all, apart from the points. Which isn't worth it in this case.

C) These points are going to have to come from somewhere of course, and like most people I'd say lose an abomination. Taking out the abomination and upgrading the units as above should leave you some points too. The extra points can go a couple places; Doom wheel, warp lightning cannon, extra models in your clan rats so they keep their rank bonus more consistently, magical protection for the plague priests so they're more likely to survive in combat, especially the one that's your general. etc.
===========================

Of course, that doesn't solve all the weaknesses I listed above, but I think it would hold up a little bit better and be more reliable on the battlefield at the least.

Dark_Knight
19-12-2009, 10:25
Foegnasher = Skaven Council Member. His word is law in the Under Empire. Heed his words for they will lead you to victory, the Skaven way.

My take is that this list is one of those goofy lists made by people that just want to break the system. It's not fun and it wastes everyone's time. This is the list you play when all your friends and you are drunk and you use coffee cans for chariots and your friends boot as a plague furnace. Seriously have fun actually learning to win with a composite list of complimentary units. It is so much more rewarding.

Quannum
19-12-2009, 10:48
Ok I'm going to be objective here and try and help you here Darkmaw. I can't stand people getting aggressive and I think you should be commended for actually finding an idea and sticking with it. However, I'd try not to "hunt for win" but instead enjoy the list. This list is CERTAINLY NOT going to win most of the time, in fact it will get crushed a fair whack so I'd brace yourself for that too. People seem to get enraged when others look for the most uber list they can abuse with. But if you're serious about this idea, then why not. I can't see it being against the rules, its just not what the designers envisioned thats all.

So onto the list. Couple of rules you have misunderstood. Firstly regarding the Furnace. You said, with regards to testing each phase:


That is if the Plague priest carries a censer (which i have opt to remove from the list). If you are talking about the Furnace T tests, its D6. Still i think 2D6 T tests (from 2 furnaces) should obliterate most chargers (which also means i need more monks!)

I'm afraid you're not correct, although I do hope they FAQ it soon and make it so you have to be in close combat. As it stands, the Furnace's Great Furnace acts just the same as a normal Plague Censer (but obviously the bigger base forces more tests on the enemy and you!). This means the same rules apply to the Great Censer which, as you read it plainly in the Army Book, means that at the start of each and every combat phase, you test. It doesn't specify whether you need to be in combat or not, its just as the phase starts. Think of it a bit like Orcs and Goblins Animosity tests at the start of each friendly turn. Its not ideal but its necessary.

By these standards, I think you're actually quite sensible in minimising the amount of Monks in contact with the Furnace at the start of the phase.

As for the rest of the list, stick with Two A-Bombs. :D

Q