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AussieSocks
08-12-2009, 15:24
Why do people whine so much about stegadons?!?

The most recent offence to my proud dinosaurs was The ETC limiting people to 2 Stegadons (which is ok by itself) AND each character mount took up another slot in respective rare/special (ok by itself)

Jeez people... why the hate?

Yes it causes terror, but if you're playing in a tournament nowadays and you can't handle terror, you should go hang out with the ogre and goblin players.

Yes the engine has an unpredictable Burning Alignment Spell. So you can't stop it... it's 2d6 range and it's only better than uranon's thunderbolt if it's right in the middle of your army (surely you have one artillery piece or character that can deal with a dragon? why can't you kill this monster off?)

In Combat, it's unit strength 10, same as a 5 man knight unit... nothing special there and once impact hits are done and dusted (nothing special, chariots have been doing them for years) you can easily kill off the crew for res points.

/End Rant :D

My Point is: With all the Dark Elves, Daemons, Sorcerors of Chaos and Vampires flying around, why are people so terrified by the humble stegadon that they have to comp hit it?

Malorian
08-12-2009, 15:29
Some armies aren't prepared to take on an army of stegadons.

That being said if more people took more infantry and just beat the thing through static combat res (stubborn 6 fails eventually) then they wouldn't be such a problem.

It's more an issue of people using min/max rather than an issue of the power level of a single unit.

AussieSocks
08-12-2009, 15:37
I'm assuming a tournament atmosphere for the purpose of this conversation btw. Sorry dude.

I get that taking 2 to a friendly match is just plain mean.

But if you go to a tournament, you're looking for hard lists, not cheese, but hard.

Stegadons just don't seem to Rate when Kairos, Hydras, Bloodthirsters and Vampire Lords come to the table. At least not to the level where they deserve to be limited in numbers.

Limit to 3 would make more sense, or keep the 2 limit but lose the character mount slot rule, or other way around.

Damn you Ben Curry and your Lizzism (Lizard Racism?)

Witchblade
08-12-2009, 15:44
Burning alignment massacres my chaos knights a bit too well for my liking, but otherwise I actually don't have a problem with stegs. I think they're overrated (although definitely worth the points!)

AussieSocks
08-12-2009, 15:58
@Witchblade, which do you find more intimidating, Uranon's Thunderbolt (Infi Range D6 Str4 No Armour) or Burning Alignment?

Thanks in advance

Tauren
08-12-2009, 16:18
I play beastmen... Thank you for suggesting that if you play a tier 2/3 army that doesn't take "ultra hard lists" to deal with your cheese terror causers that win games just by being around that we need to go chill with the other tier 2/3 armies and not play. Thank you for being a shining example of what warhammer players should not be on the public internet.

And no, not all armies have tools to deal with dragons, then again some armies had their tools, and half their army taken away sir. Sorry to say but just because "someone else can do it and does" is a logical flaw ... and not a proper excuse to bring them. Let me guess, you also bring a slann too right? Min core? What else? Power lists pshh... There's no skill involved in this which is pathetic.

TheDarkDaff
08-12-2009, 16:29
@Witchblade, which do you find more intimidating, Uranon's Thunderbolt (Infi Range D6 Str4 No Armour) or Burning Alignment?

Thanks in advance

That would be Burning Alignment every single day of the week. It is hands down superior.

The issue people have with the Steg is that they can be abused. While Hydra's are tough you will generally only face 1 or 2 of them while a 2000 point LM army can pack 6 Stegs. Mounts can also join cheap units for rank bonus and they protect the squishy skinks they displace. US10 also makes their terror better than any other terror causer in the game at autobreaking units.

They quite simply should cost an extra slot on hero level characters (like Manticores) and shouldn't be allowed to join units. This would remove the worst abuses of them and make them pretty neat.

warhawk95
08-12-2009, 16:59
So is the person asking one of the better units in the game is limited? Maybe its because some armies have a hard time taking out one, never mind 3 or more. 2 is fine for a competitive list. the people whose lists ive read who went to a GT have only used 2 (and they all placed top 15) so it also seems the army is still very difficult to beat with only 2. I think its fine LM dont really need more as past events have shown.

Malorian
08-12-2009, 17:02
One of the things that I find funny is that in the last army book you were thought a fool to take two stegadons for your rare choices.

"What a waste!"

"Stegadons suck!"

Now if you take two stegs (which are basically the same for the same cost) you are powergaming :rolleyes:

Tauren
08-12-2009, 17:07
One of the things that I find funny is that in the last army book you were thought a fool to take two stegadons for your rare choices.

"What a waste!"

"Stegadons suck!"

Now if you take two stegs (which are basically the same for the same cost) you are powergaming :rolleyes:

Taking 2 terror causers at any point is not considered power gaming?

ZeroTwentythree
08-12-2009, 17:10
But if you go to a tournament, you're looking for hard lists, not cheese, but hard.



Not necessarily. Different tournaments encourage different types of play.

Some try focus on armies of rank & file. Those are the ones that have the limitations you mention (along with many others, usually -- it's not like they're only picking on steggies.)

Other tournaments are more hardcore and have little or no comp restrictions.

Witchblade
08-12-2009, 17:14
@Witchblade, which do you find more intimidating, Uranon's Thunderbolt (Infi Range D6 Str4 No Armour) or Burning Alignment?

Thanks in advance
Burning alignment, because the thunderbolt can be dispelled (using MR possibly) and requires LoS, which I can limit. There's little I can do except for staying out of range about the burning alignment and I don't like the idea of having to keep my main hammer units away from the opponent's centre.

Malorian
08-12-2009, 17:27
Taking 2 terror causers at any point is not considered power gaming?

You pay for what you get.

Taking terror causers is not being cheesy.

Taking terror/fear causers and then also taking items which lowers the LD of the opponent (terror bomb) is being cheesy.

AussieSocks
08-12-2009, 17:33
Interesting Points all around fellas

@Tauren

Man Up, if you're heading out to a Tournament that is no comp, i'll take cheese. If you're heading out to a tournament that has a little comp, i'll take a hard list.

If you're heading out to a soft tourny, i'll take a soft list.

Its called being competitive and i find it hilarious that the only people saying it "takes no skill" are those that don't go to tournaments with competitive play in mind.

Why hamstring yourself, it's obvious that tournaments are about competition, if you hamstring yourself, great, but don't expect me to do it also.

EDIT: @ ZeroTwentyThree, i see what you mean dude but i'm currently discussing ETC composition and Masters which to my knowledge limits stegadons in the same way the ETC does. They limit stegadons to 2, but allow 2 hydras and a dragon or shadestar etc...

Vampires get comp hit for banner and crown on a lord, fair enough, that's punishing one item combination on one character type, limiting to two stegadons is just cutting army styles out of play.

I've also never heard of Stegazilla winning a tournament. Or even being taken seriously.

Avian
08-12-2009, 17:36
Now if you take two stegs (which are basically the same for the same cost) you are powergaming :rolleyes:
I don't think very many people complain about two NORMAL Stegadons.

And for that matter, I don't think any Lizardmen players field two NORMAL Stegadons.

:D

AussieSocks
08-12-2009, 17:39
I Take a normal stegadon with a warspear chieftan holding my bsb!

The Re-rolls on the portable bolt thrower from lore of heavens are simply godlike avian!

Falkman
08-12-2009, 17:46
cheese. If you're heading out to a tournament that has a little comp, i'll take a hard list.

If you're heading out to a soft tourny, i'll take a soft list.
Then why are you whining?
ETC is one of those tournaments with restrictions/comp, and one of the things restricted are monsters (your example further up is pretty bad, since Kairos can't be taken, Vampires get restricted by item choice etc etc), just do as you say yourself, Man up.


limiting to two stegadons is just cutting army styles out of play.
Limiting magic also cut army styles out of play, as does limiting shooting/war machines and other armies' monsters, EVERY army face limitations, not just yours.
If you don't like it, just don't visit the tournament.

Malorian
08-12-2009, 17:52
I don't think very many people complain about two NORMAL Stegadons.

And for that matter, I don't think any Lizardmen players field two NORMAL Stegadons.

:D

Players in one of my groups were playing with stegadon herds, and yes even two regular steg were being called cheese...

AussieSocks
08-12-2009, 17:54
Apart from the personal attack falkman you make a good point.

Vampires get restricted by item choice, but the items aren't banned, just combinations.

The Cross-over would be "Can't take two engines" or "Can't take two Ancients"

I'm just saying that in my opinion Tournaments like the ETC and the Masters Events hit stegs too hard, considering that they are incapable of doing the damage that a dragon is capable of, are hardly as immovable as a treeman and definately aren't as havoc reaping as hydras.

Fair enough when multiples come into use i can see how they become a problem, but do you think there is room for improvement?

Such as 1 ancient and 2 Normal Stegadons can be taken? or every stegadon after your first counts as a hero slot? (i don't mind that one even though it has a very similar effect)

My Point Falkman is: High elves, while restricted by their books rules, still have the option of two dragons. I'd like the option of three stegadons if you gave me the chance to pay bigger penalties because i feel they are not as strong as people are giving them credit for.

EDIT: Once Again: Point stands that no Stegazilla list has ever taken a Major tournament. Period

warhawk95
08-12-2009, 18:01
So then why are you complaining if stegazilla has never even been taken to a major tourney. The reason why 2 dragons isnt limited is because the dragon mage isnt good, so it shouldnt matter. Stegs are good and can cause alot of problems for armies that cant handle them, never mind 3. I dont thinks broken, but at the same time I dont think there is a big deal complaining about it because as weve seen even in a non comped/restritced environment 3 stegs arent taken so its kind of a pointless comp IMO.

Avian
08-12-2009, 18:10
EDIT: Once Again: Point stands that no Stegazilla list has ever taken a Major tournament. Period
Well, there is a very limited selection of stuff that wins major tournaments and quite a few things outside of that gets restricted.

For example, it is common to set a restriction on the number of Fanatics a greenskin player can field. As I understand it, that is because Fanatic-spam armies are no fun to play against and not because Fanatic-spam armies win tournaments (major or otherwise), which they don't.

AussieSocks
08-12-2009, 18:10
I see what you mean Warhawk and i think faulkman said something similar before.

Fair enough i guess, good point.

Do you rate three stegadons up there with armies that take more powerdice than the 9 your alotted?

@warhawk

I think the dragon mage is intense for a hero choice! And he's still a weak caster on the back of a terror causer (which i find quite relevant) however he hasn't got an armour save but he's toughness 3.

YES WARHAWK!!! I AGREE, it appears 3 stegadons isn't overly powerful (Re: To hard for Avoidance Dark Elves, Siren Song Bloodthirster etc. etc. etc....) anyway because even at no comp tournies the temple guard bunker, double engine is still a better list (3 stegadons + temple guard is too far even in my eyes!) So why can't i have them... :'( Seems like TO's are just being spiteful now :D


I Guess my only point remaining is:

Is there any way you could punish or otherwise up the cost of stegadons to see them used in these events guys?
In a similar way Assassins count as hero choices for every one taken past the first?
Or Three stegadons may be taken with each Engine of the Gods counting as 1.5 towards this limit? (Thus either 3 stegadons OR 2 engines OR 1 engine + 1 stegadon)

Thanks Guys

EDIT: Good point Avian, thanks (although i personally think it's because of time constraints rather than "fun-ness" :P )

Malorian
08-12-2009, 18:38
There are several ways you can limit it or punish it.

How you do it at your tournament is ultimately up to you, but know that it's a slippy slope because once you start putting limits on some things you will have gamers demanding limits on other things.

AussieSocks
08-12-2009, 18:44
Just wondering malorian, not because i wanted to hold a tournament, but i'd like to take my army to tournaments and i'm trying to find ways to limit them or punish them that don't include a flat out ban of them beyond 2.

In the tournaments i'm discussing their already are fairly comprehensive rulespacks and i'm hoping to suggest an alternative to the way that Stegadons are managed.

Avian
08-12-2009, 18:51
How you do it at your tournament is ultimately up to you, but know that it's a slippy slope because once you start putting limits on some things you will have gamers demanding limits on other things.
There already ARE limits on other things. ;)

Malorian
08-12-2009, 18:55
There already ARE limits on other things. ;)

At some tournaments, but not at others.


I run two tournaments each year and at first started coming up with things like only 1 lord at 3K and so forth. Very quickly I was swamped with demands for other things to be limited...

In the end I decided not to limit anything and to instead have a cheesiest army list award (and if you won it you couldn't win best general).

N810
08-12-2009, 18:57
I Take a normal stegadon with a warspear chieftan holding my bsb!

The Re-rolls on the portable bolt thrower from lore of heavens are simply godlike avian!

also illegial... reread the heavens reroll spell... I doesn't work like it used to in 6th.

Kahadras
08-12-2009, 19:00
Stegadons are pretty nasty in games smaller than 2000 points. One of the guys at my club fields 3 at 1500 points. It's pretty nasty until it runs into a cannon heavy list where it rolls over and dies. My current WE list is certainly no match for it though which is a bit of a shame IMHO.

Kahadras

AussieSocks
08-12-2009, 19:01
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=58933

That's the ETC Rulepack for 2009 and i couldn't find the 2 stegadon limit.

Hoorah!

EDIT:

Uhh... D3 Re-rolls on the to hit/ to wound/ armour save/ ward saves. ??

Staurikosaurus
08-12-2009, 19:27
That's the comp from last year.

This year's lizardmen comp is rediculous. I heard it on Bad Dice.

They comp magic dice, skirmishing skinks, terradon unit sizes and stegadons. Basically they comped the hell out of everything that's effective against daemons and dark elves. In addition they're thinking about leaving Dark Elves in Band 2 instead of Band 1 where they belong.

warhawk95
08-12-2009, 19:45
Yes I also heard that lizzies are getting comped hard, and that DE might get left out. Pretty funny IMO because dark elves are probably one (if not the) best army right now. But its not like it really matters because its a team event. So now everyone can bring the cheesy dark elves, and everyone will have the over comped lizzies so its fair (to a point).

GrogDaTyrant
08-12-2009, 19:53
I don't hate Stegadons. I just also agree that Stegadon mounts should have taken up a hero slot. Especially since the Engine adds a level to the Skin Priest. Having played a game against a Slann and 3 Engines... I can say honestly that the only game I've played that was LESS enjoyable was against an all-Tzeentch Daemon army.

jthdotcom
08-12-2009, 22:17
also illegial... reread the heavens reroll spell... I doesn't work like it used to in 6th.
The spell that allows the unit it is cast on to re-roll any 1's rolled to hit or to wound? Is very useful

Shadowsinner
09-12-2009, 00:10
its not so much the stegedons as it is the engines. because they grant so many extra bonuses to the model for a really minimal cost. At my store there are maybe one or two people at the most who bring OTT lists, but the rest of us are just respectful players and know how to make competitive lists for competitive tournaments without having to be the type of obnoxious player who takes advantage of every super combo in an attempt to build their self esteem by a cheap victory. It's like here in America you'll find that those who complain and moan and scream the most about having their rights of free speech getting taken away... are often the ones who spread the most libel and unproductive influence. I feel that the powergamers who justify bringing super lists to hard tournaments are just the same.

why are we even playing warhammer at this point. lets just go stand in the parking lot and throw the biggest rock we can find at one another and say it involves skill and calculation regardless of the size of the boulder

AussieSocks
09-12-2009, 02:12
I see what you're saying Shadowsinner but i disagree with it.

Me and my housemate enjoy playing with our skinks versus goblins feud, it's all fun and games and we chill out with drinks.

But at other occasions we want to play hard lists, with tense games that are unforgiving.

It's like Athletics or Any Ball Sport ever, if everyone rocks up looking for a fun game then the competitive guy is a *********.

But if everyone rocks up looking for good hard competition then there is fun to be had!

Still Looking for Suggestions to comp stegadons.

Hey Stauri, what episode was that on because i can't remember hearing something similar but to my knowledge that was the unfinished 2010 rulespack. (Apparently Mainland Europe thinks Dark elves are average, which i'm sure Ben Curry is loving)

warhawk95
09-12-2009, 02:20
I heard on one of the last two episode of heelanhamme IIRC (good show btw highely reccomend it great while your painting).

Also I dont understand what you are looking for to comp stegs. The comps are fine as is for LM. If you are looking to bring 3 stegs go to a different tourney that is more of a filth fest or just use it with your friends for a GT type game. The only way to comp steggies is to just limit the amount you can take, and right now that is 2, and its not that big of a deal to lizzie players.

Briohmar
09-12-2009, 02:40
I have no issue with multiple Stegs, however, I feel the fair way to comp them is to make a Steg chosen as a mount cost an extra hero slot. That seems fair. Dragons take an extra slot, Manticores take an extra slot, why shouldn't a T6 Terror causer with lots of wounds, a warmachine, and poison shooting take an extra slot? I have faced a dual Engine Carnosaur list backed up by three small skirmisher units, some terradons, some razordons and some of the other shooting dinos (forgot their name right now.) I ended up winning the game, but only just. (Minor victory) That many high S high T terror causers coupled with two unstoppable spells is pretty sick. Oh his 4th character was also a skink priest. If his terror causing supermonster mounts cost him hero slots, the game would have been different, as he would have had to take more troops, which could have won him the game. As it was, I won by killing the carno, the razordons, the terradons, and the skinks. I couldn't budge the steggies, and couldn't kill the Oldblood.

Chicago Slim
09-12-2009, 02:41
Taking 2 terror causers at any point is not considered power gaming?

My Wood Elves seldom win when they take 2 treemen in 2000 points-- there's just not enough points left to do that'll support them, and against anything with a decent leadership, or decent ways of dealing with Terror-causers, a capable opponent will lead the big guys by the nose, and crush me.

I haven't played against a steg-heavy list, yet, but my plan is to adapt the same offense...


But I also play Beasts, and was always 80-90% Beasts in my Chaos armies, even before the split, so I'd have to say on that front, well, man up and play 100% Beasts, right?

(For the record, Beasts have two different Marks that'll negate Terror-- Slaanesh or Khorne-- and can easily build several different styles of list that'll be 100% marked!)

Staurikosaurus
09-12-2009, 03:12
I can't find the episode, but yes, it's the proposed 2010 pack. I have to admit that I think Lizards are horribly overcomped. It also looks like the latest rules have moved the Dark Elves back into band A.

I summarized the comp for Lizardmen below

Army size: 2000/2100/2250/2700 points (depending on category)

General composition rules

- Armies are 2000/2100/2250/2700 points.
- No characters that are: special, named or Albion
- No DoW or RoR in non-DoW armies .

- Rare choices may not be repeated, except for HE, where they can be repeated once for each choice.
- Max. 2 of the same Special choice.
- Max. 3 of the same Core choice, except ranked infantry without missile weapons and beast herds.
- Max. 3 units of chariots (incl. characters).
- Max. 9 PD/10DD in an army *
- Max. 3 units of flyers (incl. characters)
- Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).
- Max. 5 warmachines.

*Magic description
You can use a maximum of 9 power dice in each magic phase. Each bound spell you use count as 1 power dice, all following bound spells used in the same turn counts as 2 power dice.

Every ability that grants the bearer complete knowledge of a single lore counts as one power dice in each magic phase.

All dice you would not normally generate, such as Focused Rumination Slann free dice, Skaven warpstones, night goblin mushrooms, power of darkness etc., also count in the total number of dice you can use in a magic phase.

Max 10 dispel dice per army. First dispel scroll (and similar working items) you have in your army counts as 1 dispel dice, in EACH magic phase. The second and all other scrolls, counts as 2 dispel dice in each magic phase.

LIZARDMEN - Characters mounted on Stegadons also use the relevant special or rare slot; Max of 6 Terradons in army; discipline Becalming Cogitation count as 2 dispel dice. Max. 2 Stegadons of any type

Category B (2100pts)
Vampires
Empire
Lizardmen

So for lizardmen, you can only take 1 unit of terradons really as 4 are needed to effectively deal with units of shades. Can't take 3 units of skirmishing skinks, 1 Ancient Steg, engine or not. The Slann gets comped bigtime if you read the above and consider it's abilities available.

warhawk95
09-12-2009, 12:44
Yea LM are taking quite a hit with comp. but now they are out of group A so they get the extra points. Overall though its not too bad just the magic phase that is hit (and that is a big blow to lizzies) but again its a team tournie so all teams suffer not just one indvidual. So IMO its not that big of a deal.

Bard Harlock
09-12-2009, 13:01
Taking 2 terror causers at any point is not considered power gaming?

I actually think the comp restriction on Stegadons is less about terror than it may seem. I do not know the tournament rules, but is there a restriction against two Stegadons and a Carnosaur?

Witchblade
09-12-2009, 13:12
I think that comp system isn't thát bad really, although it does seem to hit lizzies somewhat unfairly hard. The biggest issue I have with the ETC comp is the extreme magic restriction. It just motivates everyone to go no-magic, which in most cases doesn't improve balance (e.g. DE) but screws over other armies big time (e.g. LM, VC).

N810
09-12-2009, 13:36
I can't find the episode, but yes, it's the proposed 2010 pack. I have to admit that I think Lizards are horribly overcomped. It also looks like the latest rules have moved the Dark Elves back into band A.

I summarized the comp for Lizardmen below

Army size: 2000/2100/2250/2700 points (depending on category)

General composition rules

- Armies are 2000/2100/2250/2700 points.
- No characters that are: special, named or Albion
- No DoW or RoR in non-DoW armies .

- Rare choices may not be repeated, except for HE, where they can be repeated once for each choice.
- Max. 2 of the same Special choice.
- Max. 3 of the same Core choice, except ranked infantry without missile weapons and beast herds.
- Max. 3 units of chariots (incl. characters).
- Max. 9 PD/10DD in an army *
- Max. 3 units of flyers (incl. characters)
- Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).
- Max. 5 warmachines.

*Magic description
You can use a maximum of 9 power dice in each magic phase. Each bound spell you use count as 1 power dice, all following bound spells used in the same turn counts as 2 power dice.

Every ability that grants the bearer complete knowledge of a single lore counts as one power dice in each magic phase.

All dice you would not normally generate, such as Focused Rumination Slann free dice, Skaven warpstones, night goblin mushrooms, power of darkness etc., also count in the total number of dice you can use in a magic phase.

Max 10 dispel dice per army. First dispel scroll (and similar working items) you have in your army counts as 1 dispel dice, in EACH magic phase. The second and all other scrolls, counts as 2 dispel dice in each magic phase.

LIZARDMEN - Characters mounted on Stegadons also use the relevant special or rare slot; Max of 6 Terradons in army; discipline Becalming Cogitation count as 2 dispel dice. Max. 2 Stegadons of any type

Category B (2100pts)
Vampires
Empire
Lizardmen

So for lizardmen, you can only take 1 unit of terradons really as 4 are needed to effectively deal with units of shades. Can't take 3 units of skirmishing skinks, 1 Ancient Steg, engine or not. The Slann gets comped bigtime if you read the above and consider it's abilities available.


Dang what's with al the Lizardmen hate...
with those rules you might as well leave your Slann home. :(

warhawk95
09-12-2009, 13:38
No competitive lizzie list takes the carnosaur its all slanns (and its fluffy). And I agree witchblade, the two armies they are really hittiing LM and VC arent that bad to begin with, but the two armies that are broken (DE and DoC) arent effected because one of the best DE list is no magic and DoC have the thirster.

Edit-N810 yea its a bit harsh epecially since DE and DoC arent that bad

Staurikosaurus
09-12-2009, 14:50
well, it's only 100 pts above band A. I'd rather have the choices back.

Bard Harlock
09-12-2009, 14:59
No competitive lizzie list takes the carnosaur its all slanns (and its fluffy).

Which was my point about the assumption that Stegadons are being limited because they cause terror. Plus, as far as fluff goes, there is a very good reason to have a Slann, Stegadon, and Kroq-Gar on a Carnosaur :)

Falkman
09-12-2009, 19:55
Can't take 3 units of skirmishing skinks.
Why not?
I think lizards are restricted pretty fairly, the only thing I dislike is that "free" magic dice are restricted as normal (though this affect more than lizards).
All in all I'm not a fan of the ETC restrictions though, I'm more for comp than outright restricting.

EvC
09-12-2009, 19:58
Some amazingly poor reading in this thread. So Dark Elves are allowed double Hydras are they? Try reading the rules for the pack you're whining about: "Rare choices may not be repeated". So no double Hydras. No Shadestars either, as Shades are limited to 8 models, maximum 2 units. That's 16 Shades total, for anyone who has trouble counting on top of reading.

Then Daemons start with 250 points less than everyone else before anyone complains about them, and Dark Elves have a tonne of extra restrictions (Although they may not go far enough).

2 Stegadons is fine. You don't need more than 2, and the ETC environment is designed for grown-ups, who aren't going to whine and throw a tantrum like the opening post. So don't worry, no-one is ever going to force you to play by these rules.

Staurikosaurus
10-12-2009, 01:20
Why not?
I think lizards are restricted pretty fairly, the only thing I dislike is that "free" magic dice are restricted as normal (though this affect more than lizards).
All in all I'm not a fan of the ETC restrictions though, I'm more for comp than outright restricting.

You can have max 3 of the same core unless missile troops or skirmishers. Skinks are both. Your are allowed at most 2 skirmishing skink units and total shots per turn are limited as well.

TheMav80
10-12-2009, 02:15
Do these Stegadon lists even work? I mean, after taking a Carnosaur and two Engines you are probably looking at over 1200 points right? Wouldn't be much else to take?

The Oldblood is rough, but not crazy. I'd think you could just avoid the Engines with any of you big stuff and/or assassinate the Priest off the top.

I dunno. I have only ever run two Stegadons at a time. One Engine and one Regular. That was in a Skink list.

Bard Harlock
10-12-2009, 02:24
I've seen some crazy Steg lists at my LGS. The owner and one of his sons both play Lizards. The son runs a lot of Stegs and skinks. It can sometimes be hard to avoid the Engine since its range varies and you can march a Stegadon behind your enemy if you play smart and use the wardrums, etc.

Stumpy
10-12-2009, 02:25
You can only take 2 skink skirmisher units? I understand some other restrictions, but there isn't anything wrong with skirmishing skinks.
Since the new book, I have one of 2 lizardmen armies I've seen without at least one engine (the most I've seen, and played, was 4). I'm also the only one that doesn't field any normal stegadons or saurus. I don't field a slann either. I can say quite happily from watching other games as well as my own that engines and powered-up slann remove much of the tactics from lizardmen. Before making assumptions, I only field 2-3 skirmisher units. You can do well with many builds with lizardmen, give it a try before being 'another' multiple steggy army.

Avian
10-12-2009, 06:51
It's a maximum of 3 units of skirmishing skinks, the same maximum any other Core unit that isn't a ranked infantry unit has. It's got nothing to do with them in particular.

Spiney Norman
10-12-2009, 09:42
The problem with stegs isn't that they're broken at all, they're pretty well costed actually, the problem is you can bring so many of them.

Now I know Hydras and HPA are broken, but imagine for a second that they actually were fairly costed, then think how ridiculous it would be if a skaven/delf player could field 6 or more of them in a 2k army.

One steg is routine, two stegs isn't that hard to deal with, but 5-6 is utterly stupid.

How do they enforce the "max 9 PD" rule? The number of dice a Slann uses is restricted by the number of spells he casts if he has rumination, so say if I bring a bargain basement slann with only the rumination discipline I've got 4+2DD, then an extra 1 for each spell I cast, so if I cast 3 spells in a phase then I'm good, but if I want to cast a 4th do I just not get the free rumination dice or something?

BugsOwn
10-12-2009, 09:53
It is a bit annoying in that it restricts some good combos.

Taking a Slann and an engine is sort of pointless since the slann on its own could have 9 dice, as it is now you should either just take the slann for magic and no engine, or if you really want the engine then skip the free dice discipline on the slann. (shame since its the best)

I think I would go with the slann with full lore and an engine for the full 9 PD.

I wonder if they count power dice stored by the diadam as dice used?
IF not you could actually still benefit from the slanns +1 dice per spell by putting the diadam on either of the mages.

The other annoying thing is that you cannot take a engine and a skink chief with lance on ancient steg. Your stuck with the basic steg.

The comp is somewhat restricting but you can work with it.

Spiney Norman
10-12-2009, 12:58
It is a bit annoying in that it restricts some good combos.

Taking a Slann and an engine is sort of pointless since the slann on its own could have 9 dice, as it is now you should either just take the slann for magic and no engine, or if you really want the engine then skip the free dice discipline on the slann. (shame since its the best)

I think I would go with the slann with full lore and an engine for the full 9 PD.

I wonder if they count power dice stored by the diadam as dice used?
IF not you could actually still benefit from the slanns +1 dice per spell by putting the diadam on either of the mages.

The other annoying thing is that you cannot take a engine and a skink chief with lance on ancient steg. Your stuck with the basic steg.


I wouldn't take the knows complete lore discipline, according to the rules pack that "counts as" one of your dispel dice, leaving you with 8. The problem is that the pack is weighted so much towards magic defense (max 10 DD and 9PD) that its completely pointless to try and do a magic heavy set up.

Note that the diadem doesn't ever increase the dice you can get for a casting phase, it only turns PD into DD in 7th Ed.

Are you sure you can't take a chief on a steg ancient AND a priest on an engine, I'd certainly try and argue that an Engine Steg and a regular Ancient steg are NOT the same, they even have different points values.

dude.sweet101@yahoo.co.uk
10-12-2009, 13:23
As you well know-anything flying s6 basic and you lose 100 pts so Dragons are not a realistic option-neither are greater daemons as they use a hero slot,leaving 2 for possible scrolls.

Daemons really got the !"£$%^ end of the stick and rightly so, they are a filthy book.

Anhoo Dragon mages suck cajones so no bother there.

Empire look good for this style of thing-2 cannon,War Altar and a Helstorm or HBVG, as do orcs with a rock lobber and 4 boltthrowers and a MFT of magic.

Dan