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Bladerunner
09-12-2009, 00:15
hey all,

so I started getting back (didnt really start last time) into warhammer and was looking at the VC. Now I like the feel of the army and think its pretty cool, along with their models and has tons of conversion possibilites. So with that stated my friends and family who play are all very competitive people and do the tournaments and such and the VC will also help me here. The only thing Im worried about is how much of a crutch will the VC and undead army be. What I mean I as a person dont want to be known as someone who only succeeds because Im playing VC and not something like empire. So I guess what Im asking is do people who play VC (or undead in general) or people who play them think that just because someone who plays VC and are good are only good because they have the undead crutch. Does it still require one to be a good general to use the VC. I understand the army plays differently but if I am succesful with the VC and then given empire will I just fall apart and not be good (after enough games to get grips with the army). I know the obvious solution is to take TK but Im not fond of the models and really like the VC ones.

So in short in case you skipped that does playing VC as the first army give you a crutch and you arent really a good general if your succesful with them?

ChaosVC
09-12-2009, 01:24
Well, if your oponent is competative, VC should be the right army to go. If you are playing a less competative player, then learn to pull back your punches when making the list and give both and you and your oponent a challenge. End of the day, with VC reputation and obvious power creep, sometimes it's just simply difficult to convince yourself that you win by being a better player.

Bard Harlock
09-12-2009, 01:29
You can cheese out most any army. Vampire Counts are supposed to be an army that wins by attrition. Yes, I suppose someone could be lazy and come to rely on gimmicky, broken stuff to win. The good news is you will get feedback on that. I imagine as a VC player the 80/20 rule works: about 80% of the feedback will be people who will gripe solely because you play VC and the other 20% are the ones you should listen to.

The main thing in picking an army, any army, to me is that you like the models. Next is if you like the fluff. Power level is one of the middle considerations. No one likes to lose all the time and some people are just not built to take that battle after battle.

I guess what I am saying is if someone came to Warseer saying "I want to start a Vampire Count army so I can beat everyone without thinking but I really hate the models and their fluff is stupid," I would encourage them not only to pass on playing Vampire Counts, but perhaps on Warhammer in general. You, Bladerunner, seem to want to play VC for the right reasons. In a nutshell:


Now I like the feel of the army and think its pretty cool, along with their models and has tons of conversion possibilites.

This being the case, go for it, and have a lot of fun doing it. Welcome (back) to Warhammer!

Bladerunner
09-12-2009, 02:15
I appreciate the support/advice but I think you may have misinterpreted my question. People who are new and play a bloodthirster are using it as a crutch therefore if they are probably given a harder army to win with like empire they will struggle. Im asking if I win with a resonably hard but not too hard VC list will the same thing happen. Will I be winning because my army is undead and I have a good magic phase and not becuase I used good tactics.

That or Im just misinterpreting your answers, in which case I apologize and maybe a different explantion?

MTUCache
09-12-2009, 03:11
Will I be winning because my army is undead and I have a good magic phase and not becuase I used good tactics.
Yes, you will get some of that, especially from weaker players and those using soft armies.

VC are definitely a crutch. Any army that's army-wide immune to psych and causes fear is. It will be far easier to use and control than an army like Empire, O&G, etc. That's part of the reason why they're so highly ranked.

Most people say that any army that ignores an entire part of the game (like psychology) is a poor one to start off with. I say do whatever you want. If you like VC for the fluff and the models, and you're inspired to collect and paint them, go for it. All the other crap (the competitiveness, the cheese, the whining, the power creep) is all cyclical and subjective.

Do whatever you like and tell everyone who accuses you of having a crutch to get bent.

Bard Harlock
09-12-2009, 03:48
Will I be winning because my army is undead and I have a good magic phase and not becuase I used good tactics.

Well, that would be hard to determine before you even played a game. Any Army can lose and any Army can win against any other Army for a variety of reasons.

Zarroc
09-12-2009, 04:23
I personally wouldnt even listen to people who complain about VCs being broken and that

There a good army, but you still need good tactics to win

Players are the ones who make the broken list, almost all armies out there have something, people consider broken

Zeuy
09-12-2009, 04:30
I have a friend who has started learning to play warhammer with VC. That doesn't mean he auto-wins. He is struggling to learn the game's ins and outs: tactics, army building, painting, modeling, and above all, not taking things too seriously. Another member of our local club also started VC sometime ago, and he did win consistently for a while because he netlisted and cheesed out as much as he could. We all ramped up our lists to match, he lost HARD, and quit the game after a hissy fit (good riddance). My point is that any army can be fun as long as your heart is in the right place, and yours definitely is. Good luck!

Ymir
09-12-2009, 04:50
I don't know exactly how Vampire Counts works, but as a Tomb Kings player, I'd say the inability to flee is an enormous disadvantage that goes a long way towards weighing up for all advantages the undead rule brings.

ChaosVC
09-12-2009, 05:04
Well as many has said it, the most important thing is, do you like the army, the models, the fluff. Because it is still a modeling hobby with a "war game tag" attached to it. How fun the game may be really depends on who you are playing with, not what you are playing with.

The Red Scourge
09-12-2009, 05:46
Warhammer is a very poor game for being competitive. The armies are poorly balanced, and a single dice roll can win or lose you the game.

That said, then its still great fun :)

At the VC question. Singling any army out in Warhammer will make you a poor general. Some people say you lose out on psychology when playing VC, but fear causing and Immune to Psychology are just as much psychology rules, and even though your troops might not be breaking and panic'ing, your opponents will. Its true that playing the better armies won't be as much of challenge as some of the worst, so if you're competitive - in the fashion that you want to be the best and win on your own merit - you should choose an army like Beasts or Ogres. But if its just about winning bragging rights, then VC should do just fine :)

Djekar
09-12-2009, 05:57
I agree that if you like the fluff and the models, go for it.

As far as VC being a crutch, I think it's in the way that you play. You can (probably) play a "Netlist of Cheese" and still not be using VC as a crutch. It has to do with how you are thinking about the game. If you are pushing your units forward and relentlessly making the same mistakes, relying on the superiority of your troops/list/special rules to win you the day - then it's a crutch. If you learn and adapt from your mistakes, and try new things with both army composition and maneuver I would say that the army, regardless of it's nature, isn't a crutch.