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nifty
09-12-2009, 05:33
i was just going through an old white dwarf, and noticed that there was slated to be a codex alien hunters at some point what happened to this project was there ever any minis produced?

Dark_Templar
09-12-2009, 06:18
Depending on the day of the week, the rumour is:
a) It is in the works
b) There will be combined Inq Codex
c) It will never see the light of day
d) All Inq are being phased out
e) Pink Potatoes taste like bacon

GrimZAG
09-12-2009, 11:59
I don't believe there were mini's produced for it. However there might be some death watch bits/marines floating around

Born Again
09-12-2009, 12:01
Yep Death Watch marines (and rules for them in WD) were as far as it ever got.

EdFireborn
09-12-2009, 12:40
Deathwatch was all that happened..... rules in WD and some converting & painting guides...

Though there was 4th Ed of 40k........

Yautja
09-12-2009, 13:02
Now Sternguard have options for differant types of ammunition to shoot. I can't see how Death Watch options would vary from them.

Mannimarco
09-12-2009, 13:29
I dont suppose they would, I didnt think the DW operate at army level anyway do they?

Koris
09-12-2009, 14:22
Alien hunters will be in a new Inquisition Codex, covering all 3 factions.

I guess they will get a bunch of new units to go alongside the Deathwatch, who were far more than Sterngaurd anyway...
Assult Heavy bolters, Librarians leading individual squads, a plethora of combat specific weapons to go alongside the pinning Heavy 2 Bolter options and the special ammo.

Brother Loki
09-12-2009, 14:28
That's what I'd like to see, but I think its unfortunately pretty unlikely.

nifty
09-12-2009, 15:24
thats very strange because the impression i got from the white dwarf article was that it was in the works.normally when something is printed there has already been a certain amount of work put into it.i guess it's like the bloodquest movie.yep it's on it's way oops no it's not.i just thought there might be some test minis,early sculpts etc, floating around.i was also interested to hear how they would be different from other space marines especially rules wise.

mdauben
09-12-2009, 16:21
I dont suppose they would, I didnt think the DW operate at army level anyway do they?
I admit I didn't pay a lot of attention to the Alien Hunters stuff, but I thought that the Deathwatch was to Alien Hunters what GK were to Daemonhunters and SoB were to Witch Hunters? That is, they are the chambers militant of the Ordo Xenos. So, PADW would fill the Troops selection of a hypothetical AH list, with DW Termis as Elites and perhaps some sort of DW heavy weapons squad as Heavy Support?

aka_mythos
09-12-2009, 16:44
Now Sternguard have options for differant types of ammunition to shoot. I can't see how Death Watch options would vary from them. Well Sternguard are what Deathwatch members do when they go back to there respective chapters.

The only real way Deathwatch would vary from sternguard is that the Deathwatch squads would be commanded by a captain or librarian.

The deathwatch are to the adeptus mechanicus what the sister of battles are to the eclessiarchy. So you could probably expect a few adeptus mechanius units... maybe a squad of multiple techpriest and or techamarines with servitors (kinda representing how the techmarines train with the admech). Things like a thunderfire cannon or rapier laser also strike me as appropriate. Deathwatch terminators would be a neat swiss army knife unit, where each member could have a mix and match of different option (they'd probably be down played a bit to allow Grey Knights to keep their glory). Like the other Ordo's they should get updated stormtroopers (maybe with a techguard 6+ inv save bionic upgrade) and valkyries. By the fluff, alien hunters prefer "needle" and poisoned weapons so I could see scouts and some close combat unit with poisoned weapons.

I think DW devestator squads would be appropriate, but they'd likely have a limited weapon selection where those heavy weapons have a bonus. For example limiting it to "heavy weapons that can safetly mount suspensors" which would allow them to move and shoot, where they get heavy bolter, missile launcher, or heavy flamer and where the heavy bolter and missile launcher have special ammo and the heavy flamer is the standard freebie choice.

phoenix01
09-12-2009, 16:52
Now Sternguard have options for differant types of ammunition to shoot. I can't see how Death Watch options would vary from them.

Actually, there are a few differences between the Sternguard and Deathwatch.
Sternguard are elite choices led by a sargeant. They have Dragonfire bolts (ignores cover), Kraken bolts (increased range and AP), Hellfire rounds (Strength X, poisoned), and Vengeance rounds (improved AP and Gets Hot!). Options for storm bolters, combi weapons, special weapons, and heavy weapons (including the elusive heavy flamer) are available for all members of the squad. They can take a Rhino, Razorback, or Drop Pod as a dedicated transport.

Deathwatch are an HQ choice led by either a captain or a librarian. They get True Grit USR from 4th edition. They each have a close combat weapon, Metal Storm bolts (sacrifices AP for assault capability), Inferno bolts (re-roll to wound), and the afore-mentioned Kraken bolts. They also have a suspensor for the Heavy Bolter (halves range, but allows move and shoot as if Relentless) and the M40 targeter with Stalker shells for the bolter (Heavy 2, Pinning). The Heavy Bolter, if used without the suspensor, may fire Hellfire Shells per the Scout entry. They also get access to power weapons, powerfists, and lightning claws (unlimited if they are a veteran) as well as access to special weapons and the Heavy Bolter/suspensor and M40 (maximum of two per squad). They can take a Rhino, Razorback, or Drop Pod as a dedicated transport or can Deep Strike.

Arakanis
09-12-2009, 17:06
Actually, there are a few differences between the Sternguard and Deathwatch.
Sternguard are elite choices led by a sargeant. They have Dragonfire bolts (ignores cover), Kraken bolts (increased range and AP), Hellfire rounds (Strength X, poisoned), and Vengeance rounds (improved AP and Gets Hot!). Options for storm bolters, combi weapons, special weapons, and heavy weapons (including the elusive heavy flamer) are available for all members of the squad. They can take a Rhino, Razorback, or Drop Pod as a dedicated transport.

Deathwatch are an HQ choice led by either a captain or a librarian. They get True Grit USR from 4th edition. They each have a close combat weapon, Metal Storm bolts (sacrifices AP for assault capability), Inferno bolts (re-roll to wound), and the afore-mentioned Kraken bolts. They also have a suspensor for the Heavy Bolter (halves range, but allows move and shoot as if Relentless) and the M40 targeter with Stalker shells for the bolter (Heavy 2, Pinning). The Heavy Bolter, if used without the suspensor, may fire Hellfire Shells per the Scout entry. They also get access to power weapons, powerfists, and lightning claws (unlimited if they are a veteran) as well as access to special weapons and the Heavy Bolter/suspensor and M40 (maximum of two per squad). They can take a Rhino, Razorback, or Drop Pod as a dedicated transport or can Deep Strike.

oh snap. Very good treatise there, thanks man.

aka_mythos
09-12-2009, 17:35
The only issue is that GW has said you can't use Deathwatch anymore and that sternguard replaced them. So stating the deathwatch rules like that is moot. Sternguard = 5th edition deathwatch.

Brother Loki
09-12-2009, 17:47
Where did they say that? Do you have a source?

RichBlake
09-12-2009, 17:53
The only issue is that GW has said you can't use Deathwatch anymore and that sternguard replaced them. So stating the deathwatch rules like that is moot. Sternguard = 5th edition deathwatch.

AFAIK they've never said that, they said "This is what those Deathwatch guys do for a day job". Obviously there's more in there but thats what it boils down to :P

In fact I'm guessing the reason that the Deathwatch kit is still available is because you can easily count Deathwatch as Sternguard and include them in a space marine list.

Bunnahabhain
09-12-2009, 18:10
They've been ignored, forgotten, or subsumed into stern-guard.

Which is a very good thing indeed. We have too many marine codexs already, the last thing we need is another one with insufficient background to make them worth it, and more extra rules to make them different for their own sake.

If we do get a big book of the Inquisition ( 2/1 odds on of this, rather than separate books, I reckon) then they could be done well in there.
Similarly, if we get a big book of ALL marines ( Please. Please! 10/1 against, at least:cries:) they could be done in there.

Personally, I think they're a hasty idea with insufficient room in the background to ever work as an independent force. A unit or two in a parent codex - like Legion of the damned, but useful- is fine.
There are various forces out there, that if we are to introduce new playable races, are much more deserving. Eldar exodites, Ad Mech (if FW don't do them first) and S****s ( also unless FW get here first...) for a start.

JagdWehrwolf
09-12-2009, 18:33
The deathwatch are to the adeptus mechanicus what the sister of battles are to the eclessiarchy.

Well, I don`t claim to be an expert on the fluff, but I would call it a bit more thana bit of a stretch. Normally it is the Skitarii that fulfills the role of military arm of Adeptus Mechanicus organisation. Now I can certainly see both Ordo Xenos and AM in close cooperation in terms of deciphering the Health & Safety rules and possible introduction Ad Majorem Emperator Gloriam for alien artifacts. But I think that xeno-cleansings are outside of AM scope of interest.

And in terms of equipment I was always drooling about a possible Radical OX Inquisitors and DeathWatch Kill Teams armed with alien weapons. :skull:

bluenova
09-12-2009, 18:53
And in terms of equipment I was always drooling about a possible Radical OX Inquisitors and DeathWatch Kill Teams armed with alien weapons. :skull:
Along similar lines, I'd hoped it would herald a return for Genestealer cults and hybrids etc - the other inquisitorial codices had adversary sections in the back, so this seemed appropriate.

Alessander
09-12-2009, 18:53
Apparently GW was overall disappointed on how WitchHunters was a basically a copy of DaemonHunters, and shelved Alien Hunters until something really unique could be done about them. And it never happened.
Eventually there may be a single codex with all three Ordos.

Vlad Urkana
09-12-2009, 18:54
I vote that today is the day that pink potatoes taste like bacon.

On topic, I think that if we are ever to see Ordos Xenos then it would be in a combined Ordos book, if such a thing was ever to take it's first breath.

Buddha777
09-12-2009, 18:57
Isn't the entire imperial military xeno-hunters? I get the specialty aspect of the DW squad for discreet tactical missions but what would the codex even include besides DW? Those two questions I think will keep it out of development into a full codex. We might get lucky though in a future inquisition book that has a DW entry, but even then I wouldn't get my hopes up.

aka_mythos
09-12-2009, 19:05
This is the biggest misconception on Xeno-hunters. GW always said that when they got to an Alien Hunter codex they would show the deathwatch as the elite task force that goes after the really big aliens. They'd go after norn queens or some sort of sleeping terror that hibernates within a planet, and not so much average run of the mill aliens.

GW has since said a single Inquisition codex is not likely. That they want to go in the other direction, making the inquisition less prominent and emphasizing the Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights. So chances are the next codices touching on any of this will be "Codex Sisters of Battle" and "Codex: Grey Knights".

ogretyrant
09-12-2009, 19:08
As far as I am concerned the DW have nothing to do with the AM, the only SMs' affiliated with the AM are the Techmarines'. But then I may be wrong, just never heard of DW playing to the AM song.

unheilig
09-12-2009, 19:11
i would love to see a single "The Inquisition" codex.

incarna
09-12-2009, 19:15
I kinda always felt in the back of my mind that the Inquisitor books were a half-hearted attempt on behalf of GW to float some game concepts similar to Lord of The Rings while not diverting too far from the core rules. That, if the “hunters” codexes were better received, they could start publishing mission books that incorporated LOTR style scenarios and some kill team match ups.

The effort produces some nice models and a moderately competitive army list – but wasn’t distinctive enough to pursue.

A big part of me things that an Inquisitor book incorporating all the Ordos will eventually come out – but another part of me struggles to see a book where Death Watch, Sisters of Battle, and Grey Knights sit side by side but are unable to be incorporated into the same army. I can’t see the sister of battle or grey knights going extinct though.

I wonder if we will eventually see a dedicated Sisters of Battle codex and then an Inquisitors codex that allows you to choose a “companion” codex of Space Marines and Imperial Guard or Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard to represent which of the three branches of the inquisition your HQ works for.

JagdWehrwolf
09-12-2009, 21:06
And why Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle and DeathWatch should be cancelling each other out? Unit entries would have to go through a major reworking, but it all can be done. And all while staying true to the fluff.

aka_mythos
09-12-2009, 21:19
I don't think we'll see anything beyond Codex Sisters of Battle and Codex Grey Knights. GW doesn't need any more armies for 40k. They struggle to support the ones they have, codex demons was half hearted and codex dark eldar will take forever.


As far as I am concerned the DW have nothing to do with the AM, the only SMs' affiliated with the AM are the Techmarines'. But then I may be wrong, just never heard of DW playing to the AM song. In the DW fluff it emphasizes their strong mutual support. AM provide them with special munitions and equipment, beyond even a normal marine chapters, in exchange DW help the AM collect alien technology to study. This effectively makes them the AM elite expeditionary force.

Even still the adeptus mechanicus have a strong tie to the ordo xenos, in providing logistical aid. I believe this is shown in the core rulebook fluff section by means of a venn diagram of the imperiums beauracratic hierarchy.

JagdWehrwolf
09-12-2009, 21:54
Unfortunately You`re probably right. I vaguely remember someone citing Alessio Cavatore`s response on Ordo Xenos Codex question during this years GD (can`t remember was it Italy or UK). He apparently was suprised that people still remember them. So that does not bid well. :(
I agree that Gee Dubya doesn`t need a new army. Heck! With Inquisition they got a chance to actually cut down on a number of Codexes and catching up with a backlog, by rolling everything into one book (and including DeathWatch ;) ). But as we all should know it by now, it does not lay in the hands of the design team. And hey! Why sell one codex if You can sell two. :rolleyes:
Edit: And Codex: Deamons was first and foremost unneccessary.

aka_mythos
10-12-2009, 01:36
I don't think GW will do away with Inquisitors and I don't think we'll see an all in one codex. While an all in one makes sense, it is contrary to the trends of 5th edition. An all in one codex would be the Imperial equivalent of the 4th edition Chaos Marine codex, too many different ways of doing things, to such a degree GW would dub it "confusing".

I think what we'll see are Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Grey Knights, with all "inducted" units removed, and Inquisition present but marginalized. GW might even go so far as to make a number of different inquisitors, all special characters with out a generic inquisitor entry. The inducted units removal will be in character to this edition of making all the books self contained while shifting the emphasis to the chamber militants. As a result the chamber militants will require a significant number of units to restore table top viability. I think a number of new units will be equivalent to some of those "inducted" units but where the names and options are changed to reflect the emphasis on the armies unique character. For example rather than borrowing storm troopers, Sisters of Battle may simply have "Adeptus Arbites" as a unit choice; or something made up for grey knights, who could have "Imperial Squires" a stormtrooper/sm scout like unit armed for close combat. I could see sisters of battle get a mobile shrine, land raider like vehicle; since they have a lack of vehicles. The ability to call orbital bombardments would likely shift to a power attached to the primary HQ rather than a heavy support choice. I could see the Grey Knights maybe getting "Exorcist" marines as an elite choice since those guys worked directly with the Grey Knights. Both armies need fast attack choices, valkyries would be easy enough and GW always wants to sell more of those.

Grimmeth
10-12-2009, 13:01
Inquisitors really suit games such as Dark Heresy and Inquisitor well, they're shadowy beings who are universally feared and respected by almost all forces of the Imperium.
Does this translate over to battle games like 40k? IMO not so much, they may be the shadowy agents behind a battle, or orchestrating a massed combat - but they don't have masses of place on the table by themselves.
That said, as a one off character in campaign's/scenarios then they may well fit, but this kind of things may be written into future books (such as the new scenario book whose-name-I-have-forgotten?)

Born Again
10-12-2009, 13:21
And in terms of equipment I was always drooling about a possible Radical OX Inquisitors and DeathWatch Kill Teams armed with alien weapons. :skull:

I was hoping for Radical OX Inquisitors with retinues including henchmen from various alien species. Would've been a great way to introduce some of the cooler "fluff-only" races to the tabletop.

For my vote, I think a single =][= codex would be a good idea in terms of reducing the number of books and limiting the amount of info that gets repeated between them all (like stormtroopers, for example). But the question then is, how do you limit people to one Ordo in the army list? Or do people turn up with an OX Inquisitor leading SoB and GK Termies?

JagdWehrwolf
10-12-2009, 18:03
And I shall ask again: why should different Ordo forces be unfieldable together? That would defeat the purpose of putting all forces in one book. But free mix-and-match doesn`t sit well with me too. So maybe a llimitation to members of two Ordos?
At first I thought: "maybe the aliens in Inquisitors retinue is a bit too radical?", but than it hit me: "I wanna Jokaero as a Sage-Henchman!". "Uuk!" :D
@Aka_mythos: Looking at Gee Dubya`s codex design policy everything You say seems plausible, and that is really sad. :cries:

KingDeath
10-12-2009, 19:25
Inquisitors really suit games such as Dark Heresy and Inquisitor well, they're shadowy beings who are universally feared and respected by almost all forces of the Imperium.
Does this translate over to battle games like 40k? IMO not so much, they may be the shadowy agents behind a battle, or orchestrating a massed combat - but they don't have masses of place on the table by themselves.
That said, as a one off character in campaign's/scenarios then they may well fit, but this kind of things may be written into future books (such as the new scenario book whose-name-I-have-forgotten?)

Erm, that is a pretty narrow view of 40k Inquisitors. Especialy the Malleus ones are noted for taking part in battle. Imperial Armour VII, for example, mentions several Inquisitors which directly fight alongside the other involved forces on Vraks. Since i am a Daemon Hunters player who likes to build a fluffy army i would be severely annoyed if my beloved Inquisitors get removed ( and perhaps replaced by jumppack Grey Knights...or biker knights...urgh...).

mdauben
10-12-2009, 19:39
And I shall ask again: why should different Ordo forces be unfieldable together?
This is just personal opinion, of course, but for me its because it violates my mental picture of the Inquisition. I see it like one of those cop TV shows, where the FBI and the local police are both working on a crime. They don't want to work together, they resent each other, they are jealous of the other guys stepping on their own percieved "turf", and each one wants to be the one who makes the "collar" and gets the credit.

For example say you have a Witch Hunter Inquisitor who is working on destroying a ring or rouge psykers and finds out that they are being supported by some Chaos daemons. I just can't see him getting on the phone to the local Daemonhunter Inquisitor and saying "Hey Fred! I just found out these damn psykers I am about to expunge have a daemon for back up, can I borrow a squad or two of your Grey Knights?" :p


That would defeat the purpose of putting all forces in one book.
I would see the best reasons for combining the Ordos into on book as (1) becuase GW has too many codexes as it is, and this would be an easy way to cut one or two from the revision schedule without "squatting" anyone and (2) becuase it seems unlikely there is enough interest with GW to ever actually do a stand-alone Alien Hunter codex. I don't see any realy reason why three (or four if you count "inquisition units" as a separate list) have to be able to mix and match just becuase they are in the same book.

aka_mythos
10-12-2009, 21:17
And I shall ask again: why should different Ordo forces be unfieldable together? That would defeat the purpose of putting all forces in one book. But free mix-and-match doesn`t sit well with me too. So maybe a llimitation to members of two Ordos?
At first I thought: "maybe the aliens in Inquisitors retinue is a bit too radical?", but than it hit me: "I wanna Jokaero as a Sage-Henchman!". "Uuk!" :D
@Aka_mythos: Looking at Gee Dubya`s codex design policy everything You say seems plausible, and that is really sad. :cries:

The reason for no mix and match Ordo's is a simple matter of game balance. The idea is suppose to be that with these armies they excel at one specific way of fighting but have inherent flaws. If you mitigate the flaws to drastically, for balance you have to bring the rest down a notch. This also simplifies the rule writing because you'd have to deal with overlapping abilities or have alot of rules saying who is or isn't effected.

Youd would run into the inherent design flaw of the 4th ed. Chaos Marine codex. There were so many combinations that weaknesses could all be counter acted; the number of combinations also made it difficult for opponents to know the general characteristics of the army.

With the 6 different flavors of Inquisition, you could potentially have 9 different combonations; 6 if you're smart and exclude the ones that don't make sense. You end up with a convoluted system takes up many more pages explaining what can and can't be taken and the conditions they can be taken under. It makes for poor rules.


Erm, that is a pretty narrow view of 40k Inquisitors. Especialy the Malleus ones are noted for taking part in battle. Imperial Armour VII, for example, mentions several Inquisitors which directly fight alongside the other involved forces on Vraks. Since i am a Daemon Hunters player who likes to build a fluffy army i would be severely annoyed if my beloved Inquisitors get removed ( and perhaps replaced by jumppack Grey Knights...or biker knights...urgh...). I can't see inquisitors being removed, but they'd likely be brought down a peg, as far as all their special rules. The HQ Inquisitor wouldn't likely go, but thing like the elite Inquisitors and some of the "Inquisitor" units wouldn't be as much of a big deal. GW would likely leave them very much as is, while improving the Chamber Millitant units and adding only to them. Thus making the inquisition a smaller part, but not removing them.

I don't think jump packs fit the imagery of grey knights. Bikes maybe, jumpacks I don't think so. When everyone can teleport, what the point of jumping in? I also think it encroaches on the Sisters of Battle and their special unit. If GW supports both of these armies, distinctiveness is critical. EDIT: Hmmm, I was thinking, bikes are very appropriate since they already mimic the armament of the Grey Knights so it isn't drastic. But I thought, Grey Knights with their specialized roles might be ideal candidates for Jet Bikes, which would replace Land Speeders, Bikes, and Jump Packs while allowing GK to do what they do best.


This is just personal opinion, of course, but for me its because it violates my mental picture of the Inquisition...

...

I would see the best reasons for combining the Ordos into on book as (1) becuase GW has too many codexes as it is, and this would be an easy way to cut one or two from the revision schedule without "squatting" anyone and (2) becuase it seems unlikely there is enough interest with GW to ever actually do a stand-alone Alien Hunter codex. I don't see any realy reason why three (or four if you count "inquisition units" as a separate list) have to be able to mix and match just becuase they are in the same book.

Well I think you should think of the Inquisition maybe a bit less FBI and a bit more like CIA. They investigate, hunt down, interrogate. They employ specialized combat assets and are able to work outside the bounds of a traditional military role through the employment of those specialized military and paramilitary assets. They can and do go where military assets often can not to conduct clandestine operations. Much like the inter agency animosity between CIA, FBI, ATF, and NSA the different Ordo cooperate but reluctantly, avoiding it if they can.

I agree the logistics of combining the codex is the best reason. GW has promissed to support these two codices in some way, so they won't go away.

The simpliest way would be to simply have a core "Inquisitor" section to the book, where the Inquisitor is a mandatory (yet cheap) HQ choice; have a number of Inquisitor units. Then make it a simple, take a Grey Knight Master to have access to the 5 or 6 Grey Knight units, take a SOB... take a DW... etc. Where the player has to select one of the Chamber militants. Thats the most straight forward and cuts down on the number of variations.

Born Again
11-12-2009, 05:01
And I shall ask again: why should different Ordo forces be unfieldable together? That would defeat the purpose of putting all forces in one book. But free mix-and-match doesn`t sit well with me too. So maybe a llimitation to members of two Ordos?


Because the Ordos typical don't work together. The already mentioned analogy of the CIA, FBI and local cops works well. They are dedicated to fighting a specific enemy. So while witch hunters and daemon hunters may have some crossover in their work, I doubt they have anything to do with alien hunters. Also, in game terms, it would be a bit like mixing various marine books to get the best of SW bits in your regular SM army.

bigcheese76
12-12-2009, 15:35
If we are going to see any more about deathwatch it will most likely be in a combined Inquisition codex with the Sisters and the Grey Knights and if they are going too bring out such a codex, I cant wait although rumours about this change every week.

In terms of models a metal kit was produced and can still be purchased on the GW website which allows you to convert marines to Deathwatch.

Alessander
12-12-2009, 17:18
honestly the only reason we got the ?Hunter codexes was because Games Workshop launched the ill-fated Inquisitor game. The Codex was basically a sales pitch for =][=

aka_mythos
13-12-2009, 03:53
How many times must it be said. a combined codex is not happening. GW does not want to do that.

FashaTheDog
13-12-2009, 04:11
If it makes you feel any better, Imperial Armor IV has rules for Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Solomon Lok and technically (the best kind!) an Ordo Xenos army list in the form of D-99, a super-elite, nearly impossible to win with, super-elite Elysian list. Possibly the most insanely fun list to play, though.


Inquisitors really suit games such as Dark Heresy and Inquisitor well, they're shadowy beings who are universally feared and respected by almost all forces of the Imperium.
Does this translate over to battle games like 40k? IMO not so much, they may be the shadowy agents behind a battle, or orchestrating a massed combat - but they don't have masses of place on the table by themselves.
That said, as a one off character in campaign's/scenarios then they may well fit, but this kind of things may be written into future books (such as the new scenario book whose-name-I-have-forgotten?)

+++SPOILER BEGIN+++

In Imperial Armor VII, Inquisitor Rex personally leads from the front and assigns numerous Inquisitors to do the same once he takes over.

+++END SPOILER+++


For example say you have a Witch Hunter Inquisitor who is working on destroying a ring or rouge psykers and finds out that they are being supported by some Chaos daemons. I just can't see him getting on the phone to the local Daemonhunter Inquisitor and saying "Hey Fred! I just found out these damn psykers I am about to expunge have a daemon for back up, can I borrow a squad or two of your Grey Knights?" :p

Depends upon the Inquisitor. If the Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor is enough of a radical and really needs the help of the Grey Knights, he could just lie and claim he's Ordo Malleus. After all, that nifty Inquisitional Seal does have perks enough that he could get away with it.

Koris
14-12-2009, 13:40
How many times must it be said. a combined codex is not happening. GW does not want to do that.

I beg to differ. Quite certain it is, infact coming to pass.

aka_mythos
14-12-2009, 13:52
Ok... I guess speaking with the games designer at games day really is worthless since random people online who are more insistant know better.

Brimstone
14-12-2009, 16:32
I beg to differ. Quite certain it is, infact coming to pass.

It's not happening the next codicies will not be Inquisition ones.

Brother Loki
14-12-2009, 17:15
Would I be right in thinking that we'll see 'Codex:Sisters of Battle' and 'Codex:Grey Knights' at some time then Brim?

Nehemiah
14-12-2009, 19:48
So general consensus is one big Inquisition book is what is wanted, but Games-Workshop already said its not happening.

Personally I would much rather they made separate books. Otherwise it would most likely turn out that a coalition type force is the only real viable option. Plus the inclusion of all the Grey Knight plus Adepta Sorotitas plus any special Death watch rules in one codex would be a nightmare to play against in any timed battles.

aka_mythos
14-12-2009, 20:37
I think thats the thing that some people don't quite get. If you have all three in one book they will end up so diluted that they won't represent what they are very well. An all in one book would end up something like the Codex: Chaos Marines. Some one says "I want to play pure Deathguard" or "I want to play pure Sister of Battle" and it just doesn't work out as well as it could with a unique and separate book. Its begging for disappointment instead of demanding something worth while.

I think its just the fear either SOB or GK will get cut is so strong people see it as a lesser of two evils and have accepted that a bad book is better than no book.

I think Grey Knights should be kept the same price and made even more deadly, with the incorporation of new rules and new units. Sisters of Battle deserve to be a full unique army, that can call upon their faith growing more powerful as they become more desperate.

mdauben
14-12-2009, 22:30
I think thats the thing that some people don't quite get. If you have all three in one book they will end up so diluted that they won't represent what they are very well.
I think that's a totally erroneous assumption. There is no reason that GW could not write a good Codex: Inquisition which highlighted each of the forces covered, providing unique and competative lists for each. Conversly, there is no reason (as sadly shown by experience) why GW could not produce two or even three separate codexes for the Inquisition forces that each sucked. :rolleyes:


I think its just the fear either SOB or GK will get cut is so strong people see it as a lesser of two evils and have accepted that a bad book is better than no book.
Perhaps that is some of it, but its not the only reason. The fact that the three forces of the Inquisition share a lot of common fluff and units is one reason to combine them into one book, to eliminate repetions. Another reason is that GW just has too many codexes to support, such that many of them only get revised every other edition (if not less often). Another reason could be that there just is not enough of a customer base for these armies to support two or three separate codexes. Even if your original reason was the only reason, I would gladly accept a combined codex next year, over a separate codex two or even three years from now. :(

aka_mythos
15-12-2009, 11:56
Given how GW is doing codices currently a combined Codex: Inquisition, which contradicts GW stated desires, would end up similar to Codex: Chaos Marines. GW's current trend is to get rid of the selector-option packed codex, where army list could be reconfigured. Codices are now being done written with all unit options generally fixed and open without restriction.

HQ
Inquisitor
GK GM
SOB C
DW Force Commander

Priest
Confessor

ELITE
Inquisitor
Assassins
Celestian Squad
Grey Knight Terminator
Deathwatch Terminators
Dreadnought
Archo Flagallent
Sisters Repentia

TROOP
Deathwatch Kill Team
Sister of Battle
Gray Knights
Storm Troopers

Fast Attack
Dominion Squad
Seraphim
Grey Knight FA
Deathwatch FA
Valkyries?

Heavy Support
Grey Knight (DEV unit)
Sister of Battle (DEV unit)
Deathwatch (Dev unit)
Orbital Bombardment
Landraider
Exorcist
Immolator
Penitent Engine

If you tell me this is a well concieved and cohesive force for a codex, I think you're joking. It ends up a mish-mosh. You just end up with a list where hardly anyone would take certain choices. You end up with something very unfluffy. It fails on all measures of quality for a codex. For example, between the 4 troop choices Sisters of Battle end up the cheapest unit and by virtue of that would be treated as cannon fodder. Also, there is alot of redundancy in this list as well, any units with any individual character would either lose distinction or require significant improvements to an even more specialized role.

Promethius
15-12-2009, 12:51
I think that a combined book could work, actually. By accentuating the specialisations and reflecting that in points costs, units could be made less 'instant-choice', so that grey knight terminators would be formidible but overcosted against most anything but chaos, but by the same token the deathwatch and hereticus equivalents would also be weighted to make them less attractive if you're not playing against their particular favoured enemy. Some units, like SOB, may need to be re-costed to reflect their position in the codex; other options might have to be removed. I think it's doable though, and the best way to get all three factions represented on the table in the near future. Waiting for two (potentially three) books to be re-done in a tight schedule is unrealistic imo. I think the inducted allies rules should be dropped though.

You're right though, mythos; a combined book would be very difficult. Given the large numbers of shared units, the general reduced interest in the factions as a whole and the lack of pressing need for new models for either line, I think a combined book would be the way forward. We'll have to see if GW go in that direction (although it sounds like they're not too keen to).

Necromancer2
15-12-2009, 13:12
there's no need for an Alien Hunter codex... they are not that hard to kill. ;)

aka_mythos
15-12-2009, 13:33
Alien hunters don't hunt gaunts, stealers, eldar, ork... they go after C'tan and the other really big nasties that have been sleeping for millenia. Alien hunters don't even fight carnifex, they fight Godzilla, 300 ft nuclear creature from the depths of the ocean.

A logistical problem I see with the combined codex is that so many units would need new models all at once there would be a severe backlog. Anyone wanting plastic Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle would have to wait in line behind any other new kits and the addition of deathwatch sprues, redo of Excorcist and penitent engine.

Brimstone
15-12-2009, 13:39
A logistical problem I see with the combined codex is that so many units would need new models all at once there would be a severe backlog. Anyone wanting plastic Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle would have to wait in line behind any other new kits and the addition of deathwatch sprues, redo of Excorcist and penitent engine.

Don't worry no matter the amount of wishlisting it isn't going to happen. :skull:

aka_mythos
15-12-2009, 13:50
Brim, if you see above, I've been agreeing with you on this for a while. It just doesn't fit with what GW is doing. It just doesn't make sense from a rules, fluff, or logistical standpoint. And GW has said its not happening like this. I don't think it can be clearer that its not happening.

mdauben
15-12-2009, 14:55
Given how GW is doing codices currently a combined Codex: Inquisition, which contradicts GW stated desires, would end up similar to Codex: Chaos Marines.
I'm not that familiar with the structure of the current C:CM, but if its anything list what you seem to be suggesting below then I agree such a treatment would not produce a very good Codex: Inquisition product.


If you tell me this is a well concieved and cohesive force for a codex, I think you're joking. It ends up a mish-mosh.
Of course not, but you are deliberately creating an unorganized mess, rather than attempting any sort of coherent set of lists. In addition, your listing includes nothing (other than the DW stuff) that isn't in the current codexes. Most players seem to agree that DH in particular need more usable choices.
I don't think that is what anyone who suggested a combined codex intended. The idea was that three separate lists, each an improvement over the current codexes, would be included in one book, not to merge the list into one unfluffy, unfocused mess. :rolleyes:


It fails on all measures of quality for a codex.
It fails because you are setting it up to fail, nor from any inherent flaw in the idea of a combined C:Inq. At this point, people have repeated often enough that GW does not want to do a combined codex. We get it. That is no reason not to discuss our "what if" or "if I was writing the codex" sorts of discussions. I don't expect GW to do a combined codex, but that does not change the fact that I think there are a lot of advantages to the idea and that all of the disadvantages you are other people keep throwing up are easily addresses or circumvented. ;)

aka_mythos
15-12-2009, 15:12
Part of my point is that the way GW is currently doing codices follows the setup above. That if GW were to do a combined codex in the way they currently do codex books it would look like that and fail. That list above very much follows the type of structure that Codex Chaos Marines has.

For a combined book to work, it would end up not being cohesive. It ends up as the free for all, like above, or it ends up as a whole lot of "If this... then this..." nonsense that clutters the codex with an array of rules that say if and when other rule work or don't work, when units can be taken or not taken. This is one of the big things GW is trying very hard to get rid of.

The ideal combined codex is a codex with three or more separate army lists. The inquisition armies have less in common with each other than chaos space marine and loyal space marines do.

I used to be a fan of the idea of a combined codex but after trying to write together a fan-dex I realized it seriously doesn't work. It has a problem of distinction and redundancy. Both are diametrically opposed to alleviate redundancy you can either combine or eliminate units, but in doing so you diminish distinction.

I think the important question really should be, which is more worth while a series of separate codicies or one large list? Which does justice to the fluff? Which provides better opportunity for new miniatures?

Brimstone
15-12-2009, 15:46
Brim, if you see above, I've been agreeing with you on this for a while. It just doesn't fit with what GW is doing. It just doesn't make sense from a rules, fluff, or logistical standpoint. And GW has said its not happening like this. I don't think it can be clearer that its not happening.

I know you are I'm trying to make the point for others in this thread ;)

aka_mythos
15-12-2009, 17:15
Brim, I've rarely seen you chime in on wishlisting, but what sort of things would you really like to see with each codex?

RichBlake
15-12-2009, 18:10
Don't worry no matter the amount of wishlisting it isn't going to happen. :skull:

To be fair while I see the possibility of a combined codex as highly improbable I wouldn't go as far as saying it "isn't" going to happen.

Unless you know something we don't then all that's been said about it are some comments about what designers would like done and some guessing from out part about how plausible a combined codex is.

Pedantic I know but if people want to hope then let them, it's not like it's totally impossible that GW will change their mind before/during the designing of the codex/codexes.

aka_mythos
15-12-2009, 18:19
If anyone is in the "know" Brim is. I usually trust him when he makes statements about what the design team is doing. Usually... only because sometimes he acts too sneaky.

RichBlake
15-12-2009, 22:40
If anyone is in the "know" Brim is. I usually trust him when he makes statements about what the design team is doing. Usually... only because sometimes he acts too sneaky.

Well yes, however I assumed Brim was speaking based off the evidence you are too rather then something he heard. Just because someone frequently knows what other's don't doesn't mean you should assume they always do :P

However should Brim want to say he knows something we don't then that' his choice. Doubt he will though.

Drop-Trooper
15-12-2009, 23:13
Why can't we have codex: Grey Knights, Codex: SoB AND Codex: inquisition?

each would play differently (as seen by current themed lists). I run an inquisitor army with lost of inquisitors and storm troopers, no Gk's or SoB. Though saying that I do have a squad of SM in there to represent the deathwatch.

As earlier said an all in one book wouldn't work, I mean look at the choas marein codex it's all mish mash at the moment, slaaneshi DP's working with plague mariens and oblits it's not a themed army codex it's a 'take whats best and leave everything else out'. I don't want to see a codex:big book of the inquisiton become the same thing.

Annnd while we're at it, do away with the ally rules, maybe allow an inquisitor into an IG army, but leave the rest.

KingDeath
16-12-2009, 00:40
Why can't we have codex: Grey Knights, Codex: SoB AND Codex: inquisition?

each would play differently (as seen by current themed lists). I run an inquisitor army with lost of inquisitors and storm troopers, no Gk's or SoB. Though saying that I do have a squad of SM in there to represent the deathwatch.

As earlier said an all in one book wouldn't work, I mean look at the choas marein codex it's all mish mash at the moment, slaaneshi DP's working with plague mariens and oblits it's not a themed army codex it's a 'take whats best and leave everything else out'. I don't want to see a codex:big book of the inquisiton become the same thing.

Annnd while we're at it, do away with the ally rules, maybe allow an inquisitor into an IG army, but leave the rest.

Because a pure GK Codex would be just another spacemarine variant? Not to mention that we would most likely have to endure abominations like GK Chaplains, Librarians, PAGKs with jumppacks...Bikerknights... Seriously, no thanks. I want a unified Daemonhunters Codex with Inquisitors, Stormtroopers and all the other characterfull and fluffy choices together with my beloved Grey Knights and not a Codex Grey Smurfs.

Baratos
16-12-2009, 04:15
According to my store owner stores in the UK are no longer able to order new Daemonhunter/Witch hunter codexes. He explained that the exact same thing happened to Tyranids six months before their codex was released.

However he warned that until stores in his area were also affected by this it could just be a local thing.

Promethius
16-12-2009, 08:16
I think the books hae been deleted. That doesn't necessarily mean that new ones are in the works though, it could be that they just sell too poorly for another print run to be worth it. GW might just make them aailable on-line once the stocks run down.

aka_mythos
16-12-2009, 11:30
I heard that there was some work going on, but I didn't think they were that far along. For them to turn it out in the time it will have taken, means they either prioritized the work, or just opted not to redo some of the minis in need of reworking. Now with the release wave scheduling, those that need but weren't as high a priotity could be forced to wait for the second wave, which can explain the fast turn around.

nifty
16-12-2009, 18:23
i haven`t played either demon hunters or deathwatch but after reading everyone`s comments i wonder ,are these armies that much different than straight space marines.sure you can take inquisitors and assassins stormtroopers etc.but it seems to me that they don`t offer a lot in terms of filling specific battle field roles as opposed to space marines and their ic`s.and so why not just relegate them to being a space marine army with different hq and elite slots etc.i could see both of these armies having advantages in appocalypse due to the fact that they are both called in to deal with big problems.but i dont see how they stand out in standard point games.which is a big shame to me as i love the models and have been thinking about starting a gk army.if in a stand alone codex there are sufficient changes to make them drastically different to core space marines then i can see a reason to keep them seperate but as is it seems like they already are to some extent already just a space marine expansion

Edonil
16-12-2009, 18:27
The Grey Knights and the Deathwatch have very different operational patterns and tasks than a Codex chapter. Done properly, their wargear will be specifically tailored to that task (as it is currently for Grey Knights). Personally, I have no great love for Deathwatch, but the Grey Knights, while they need changes to give them a fighting chance against vehicles, at current play very differently than any marine army. If there aren't any massive changes to the playstyle of the current Grey Knights, then yes, they need their own book.

aka_mythos
16-12-2009, 18:31
I think if you were to break it down from a mechanics stand point, GK should break and kill units with lots of invulnerable saves, while Deathwatch take out monstrous creature and multi-wound enemies. DW will largely ignore toughness.

KingDeath
16-12-2009, 20:11
Grey Knights dont need their own book, Daemonhunters do.
Leave the Knights as they are ( rolewise i mean :), they still need to be buffed bit ) and make it possible to make up for their weaknesses by using Inquisitorial troops.

This way it is possible to preserve the distinct "feel" of the Grey Knights without turning them into Codex marine while still making them more competative.

aka_mythos
17-12-2009, 11:21
Well, GW will disapoint you.

Brimstone
17-12-2009, 11:30
Brim, I've rarely seen you chime in on wishlisting, but what sort of things would you really like to see with each codex?

More chambers militant less Inquisition



However should Brim want to say he knows something we don't then that' his choice. Doubt he will though.

Why yes I do, don't expect me to expand on that anytime soon though. ;)

mdauben
17-12-2009, 15:34
Going back to the original topic of this thread (Alien Hunters) as opposed to the topic of Inquisition forces and codexes in general...

I was thinking about Alien Hunters, and how unlikely it seems at this point that an offical codex will ever see the light of day. So, I thought, how would be the best way to creat a "counts as" Alien Hunters list? Looking over the available options, it seems like the best choice might be to use the Space Wolves codex, with either Daemonhunter or Witch Hunter allies.

Using the SW codex, one could field Deathwatch Kill Teams (CCW & bolt pistols) as toops (using the Blood Claws stats) and continue to build a list using other SW units to "count as" DW Termis, DW Assault Squads, etc. Throw in an Inquisitor and maybe an assassin or some IST and I think you would have about as close to an Alien Hunters list as you are probably going to get.

Any comments or suggestions on the idea? ;)

aka_mythos
17-12-2009, 16:54
I think you're best bets for doing a Deathwatch force at this time would be to take Pedro Cantor with three sternguard squads. 2 scouts squads with sniper rifles and heavy bolter, since by fluff Alien hunters have a preference for needle weapons. You could then take Daemonhunters or Witch hunters as allies to bring the Inquisitor component into the army. Drop pods would be the means of representing their deep strike capability. The more clandestine nature of Deathwatch could allow you to employ landspeeders. The deathwatch and Ordo xenos ties to the Adeptus mechanicus for providing logisitcal aid would justify thunderfire cannons and other non-tank assets. Rapid response nature would say to leave anything that can't "fit" in a drop pod or otherwise be quickly deployed.

RichBlake
17-12-2009, 19:39
Why yes I do, don't expect me to expand on that anytime soon though. ;)

Well I think by now you've earned the right to have people take your word for it, so I will :P

In which case I'd assume Codex: Grey Knights/Sisters with the odd Inquisition choice thrown in.