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SirSnipes
10-12-2009, 23:24
my club tryed wotr and hated it we played 1000 ponts of the stores stuff with aragorn and theoden with the good guys and lurtz on the bad guys

why did aragorn and theoden seem to ruin the game?

Hellfury
10-12-2009, 23:39
Well, there is certainly a disparity in certain areas, but this can be fixed by two players sitting down and discussing what they expect from the game.

Sadly, Lurtz isnt much competition against aragorn, and especially against both aragorn and theoden.

The game can be really fun if two players agree to a certain power level, but that level is often found out by playing the game.

Its sad to see people being turned away from it because of examples you have given.

Try this next time:
One person brings aragorn, and the opponent brings something more akin to his power level, say...(looks at book) Amdur or gothmog. Or even both.

This should bring a bit of parity back into your game.

If the player decides to not bring aragorn and go for something a little (ahem a lot) less powerful, the opponent should do likewise.

I am not trying to dictate how it should be played, but I think making sure both sides are on the same level will greatly increase both sides enjoyment during the game.

SirSnipes
11-12-2009, 03:31
the store owner got us to play with his two set up armys

48 orks
20 uraks
1 base of bezerkers
2 bases of crossbows
6 wargs
mordor troll
chieftain

vs aragorn
theoden
12 rohan riders 2X6
24 rohan warriors
24 minas tirath warriors
a ent
24 elves

Pacorko
11-12-2009, 06:22
Well, I seem to see the problem there: You guys only had one character on the evil side.

If at least there were a few more brutes (another troll or maybe a base of half-trolls), maybe the bad guys could have offered more of a fight against the "perfectly" led goodie-two-shoes.

Thats one of the high points (and quite a pet-peeve for those seeking "balanced" games) of WotR... The Heroes of the Free Peoples are powerful leaders with abilities that can turn the game in a couple of turns, while the more "horde-y" servants of Sauron have what we can safely refer to champions and thus, lack a few special tricks unless the player sacrifices numbers in favour of Ringwraiths, Saruman or bigger characters like Gothmog.

I'm planning on making a (rather expensive) Cirith Ungol army with Shelob on the forefront, but I know that even with 25 sets of 8 legs and nastiness to boot, winning is going to be quite a feat. Still, I'll field it.

I mean, I play OKs, O&Gs, and until recently TKs on a regular basis and still mange to win or draw a few times, and always have fun even if I loose badly.

My point is: points-wise, WotR does not need to be quite balanced, but introductory/initial games should never field heroes too powerful that cannot be matched by the other side as they will steal the limelight and make people frown at the "broken" mechanics.

Hellfury
11-12-2009, 11:17
The store owner made an obvious mistake. He gave the evil side more numbers. This doesnt amount to a hill of beans against epic heroes such as Aragorn. The evil side needs a epic hero like saruman or some such to help balance an "introductory" game out.

N wonder your group called it a flop. I would have been pissed too. I am kind of pissed that the store own misrepresented the game in that way. The armies arent balanced well enough to take 500 goblins and expect to win against heros like aragorn, attrition simply doesnt apply when special rules like his are in play.


My point is: points-wise, WotR does not need to be quite balanced, but introductory/initial games should never field heroes too powerful that cannot be matched by the other side as they will steal the limelight and make people frown at the "broken" mechanics.

Well said.

Dai-Mongar
11-12-2009, 12:37
I would think an introductory game would be best without Epic Heroes, to teach the basics of the game rather than how busted someone like Aragorn can be. I suggest giving it another more sensibly organised try, SirSnipes.

Nuada
11-12-2009, 15:10
I would think an introductory game would be best without Epic Heroes.

Yeah i agree. I had my second game last night, and we changed the rules slightly. I think it says you have to chose an epic hero.
We had just captains, it was a close game, and very entertaining

Hellfury
11-12-2009, 16:21
Epic Heroes OR Legendary formations.

Legendary formations are often the more gentle choice, if for no other reason than the hero who leads the legendary formation (say Drar for the dwarves as an example) cannot leave the legendary formation he is purchased with.

Some are pretty powerful, but on the whole they are usually not anywhere near as bad as some epic heroes.

Pacorko
11-12-2009, 17:01
.--snip--they are usually not anywhere near as bad as some epic heroes.

Who, in turn, aren't bad per sť. Their abilities are there to represent greater developments such as ralling, steadfast conviction, inspiration, heroic sacrifice, etc., on the troops' part (let us remember this game is by no means "hero-based", but "hero-improved"), not that they are whirlwinds of destruction or WoMDs that cannot be stopped once let loose.

It's quite possible to play the attrition game with any side that doesn't have the "balancing" heroes on its army, but the player(s) will need to understand that his loses will be big, to the point of seeming "unfair" for one model to kill so many enemies before croaking it.

This is what I see as the main "shocker" among the WHFB fanbois who try to diss WotR. To their snide comments and claims of "brokenness" I just point out at their VC's vampire lords and ask: "Who many wounds does that deal?" Then go for the Blood Knights and comment: "I'll bet that will cut down whole units of Ironbreakers and Black Orcs with equal ease, and give Ogre Ironguts quite a pummeling..."

They all go crazy and cite almost every excuse about how their game is not broken because you can swamp powerful units or heroes, and this is when I go: "The same as with WotR, although with this game heroes and their actions are far more dramatic... as befits a game of an epic scope."

SirSnipes
11-12-2009, 23:57
so on the baddies side, the only model i havent sold is my balrog( as hes also a bloodthirster) and my gobs were painted a while ago, still got 600 for the lot

what would be a awsome as say a 2000 point army

the news of plastic fellbeasts sounds like my "lover" khamul is a liked option, i love urak models. i love goblins, i love khamul, saruman, and my balrog

any chance of a nice army and what would you recomend to a bad guy like me?

Pacorko
12-12-2009, 00:44
Ringwraiths are neither too shabby nor that expensive (monies-wise), so I'd say go for two (you can still buy them individually).

Seeing you like Saruman (velcome to ze club, my brozer), so work towards increasing your Isengard side of the army. Get two or three trolls (you can buy MoM plastic ones for cheap and convert them), buy more Uruk-hai pikemen before increasing you missile troops, and load up on the Wargs (I'd say four boxes-worth is a magnificent sight). It will take time, but there are deal to be had on ebay so... it will not break you financially.

If you focus on building your Moria army, then I'd say get more trolls, lotsa more goblins, go for suitable characters (Goblin King, DrŻzhag) and try to pepper them with a few spiders (MWAHAHAHA!). Then, I'd say you'd be clocking a thousand points which you can combine with Uruk-Hai and some Warg riders. Finally put in Saruman and the Ringwraiths and be ready to be on the 2200 mark... without adding the Haradrim!

A veritable force of destruction, me thinks.

SirSnipes
12-12-2009, 03:04
of found some of my older models

10 giant spiders :D
a spider queen
2 mordor trolls
1 chieftain
balrog

balrog any good?

Edonil
12-12-2009, 03:17
The Balrog is something I would recommend for 1500 points or so. He's a fun model to field, but, unfortunately, he needs a lot of support. He's worth 500 points, I really do believe he is, but if someone can get 500 points or more of infantry to toss at him with some supporting characters, he'll drop nicely. I played against a balrog in 1000 points, and once I determined to kill him, he didn't last very long.

SirSnipes
12-12-2009, 03:33
hmmm and is there any way to use my best bud khamul with my gobos and isenguard?

Tarax
12-12-2009, 10:19
the store owner got us to play with his two set up armys

48 orks
20 uraks
1 base of bezerkers
2 bases of crossbows
6 wargs
mordor troll
chieftain

vs aragorn
theoden
12 rohan riders 2X6
24 rohan warriors
24 minas tirath warriors
a ent
24 elves

Has anyone noticed the disparity between these two forces? It was approx 675 vs 930 points! :eek: No wonder the Isengard force lost.

SirSnipes
12-12-2009, 14:23
it wasnt that bad untill aragorn and theoden ate my whole army

Shrapnelsmile
12-12-2009, 15:00
... and remember that any game, no matter how well balanced, can be thrown off kilter if two armies of drastically different ability levels are paired up with new players.
It seems we are in a time of wargamings development as a hobby where a bit of negotiation, common sense and sensitivity to your opponent is necessary regardless of system.
Your example lacked all three. Give it another go.

SirSnipes
12-12-2009, 15:27
all right ill have to start up a new army or proxy with my lotr skaven, hey would that work, lotr models on fantasy bases? cuz ive got 3000 points of lotr skaven made from uraks gobos, giant spiders, mordor trolls, mordor catapults, siege bows and bezerkers

Pacorko
12-12-2009, 17:37
The Balrog is something I would recommend for 1500 points or so. He's a fun model to field, but, unfortunately, he needs a lot of support. He's worth 500 points, I really do believe he is, but if someone can get 500 points or more of infantry to toss at him with some supporting characters, he'll drop nicely. I played against a balrog in 1000 points, and once I determined to kill him, he didn't last very long.


Yet, you are failing to tell us how many enemies he dispatched before falling... ;)

Edonil
13-12-2009, 02:25
Yet, you are failing to tell us how many enemies he dispatched before falling... ;)

3 companies of orcs. 60 points. :p