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Ymir
13-12-2009, 03:31
What happens if an oldblood with Blade of Realities attack a unit of multi-wound-models, such as ogres, Tomb King's chariots, or such?

We had this situation today with the Oldblood attacking my chariots, and were so confused that we treated it in different ways everytime the situation came up:

#1: If he hits three times, three different chariots must pass a leadership test or be removed from play, giving the Oldblood -nine- points of combat resolution if all three chariots were not previously wounded. This solution seemed bisarre to my mind, and I later argued that it didn't mesh well with wound allocation rules, preferring:

#2: The Oldblood hits three times. The first hit is counted against a chariot that has already suffered two wounds; it fails its test and is destroyed. The second two hits are both applied to the next chariot, which will have to pass two leadership tests not to be destroyed. If it is destroyed, the Oldblood is counted as having scored four wounds (one for the first chariot, three for this second one) for purposes of combat resolution. This is the interpretation that seems to make the most sense to me.

#3: As above, but if the second chariot fails its first test, the last test is not forfeit, but taken by the next chariot. If this also fails, the Oldbood counts as having caused seven (3+3+1) wounds, as the first chariot was already wounded.

What do you guys say?

theunwantedbeing
13-12-2009, 03:37
The first one.

Ultimate Life Form
13-12-2009, 03:47
I'd say there is no reason it should work different from any other combat. The Oldblood chooses which model(s) in base-to-base he wishes to attack. Obviously, it's best to attack chariots that still have full wounds. If the Blade destroys a Chariot, the next steps forth and takes a test. I don't see what it has to do with wounds. You shouldn't mix these up in my opinion. I'd say:

1. Target models step: Destroy a full chariot for each failed Ld test
2. Allocate wounds step: Tally up any wounds caused by any other sources and treat them according to the normal wounding rules.

Btw, I carved myself a Treeman today with the BoR - again! it's my favorite part of playing against WE.:p

Ymir
13-12-2009, 03:55
Obviously, it's best to attack chariots that still have full wounds.

But are you allowed to do that? I thought, when attacking identical models, the wounds has to be allocated so that a model at a time is removed. I mean, I can't allocate three wounds to three different chariots; one takes the wounds until it is destroyed, only then is remaining wounds applied to the next model.

To clarify, I thought it was up to the opposing player, the one being attacked, to:

- allocate wounds unless enemy has specified a target (such as a champion or character or mount)
- allocate those wounds so that one model at a time is removed, i.e, a unit of chariots takes four wounds, those hits must be allocated so that one chariot is removed from play and one takes one wound.

Ultimate Life Form
13-12-2009, 04:05
Well yeah, I admit I don't have any proof to back it up. I just thought because there's examples of such things, as attacking champions separately. It's probably best you forget I said it.

But if we assume all unit models are the same and can't be attacked separately, then it finally becomes clear that in multi-wound units wounds and models are not to bee seen as linked directly, as weird as it is. Basically the chariot unit is two separate things:

1. A certain number of models on the table
2. A pool of common life points that may be depleted or increased. This works both ways:
a) for every 3 wounds lost remove a chariot model
b) for every chariot model lost, remove 3 wounds from the pool

Healing's the same.

Ymir
13-12-2009, 04:09
But if we assume all unit models are the same and can't be attacked separately, then it finally becomes clear that in multi-wound units wounds and models are not to bee seen as linked, as weird as it is. Basically the chariot unit is two separate things:

1. A certain number of models on the table
2. A pool of common life points that may be deplketed or increased. This works both ways:
a) for every 3 wounds lost remove a chariot model
b) for every chariot model lost, remove 3 wounds from the pool

Yeah, that's basically how I've understood it. I just can't figure out how these wounds should be allocated in regards to the Blade of Realities.

Ultimate Life Form
13-12-2009, 04:15
Final step: each unsaved hit with the BoR destroys one chariot and thus equals the loss of 3 wounds, except for the last one which may have less wounds left. There really is no need for wounds allocation. To be exact, we don't even need the BoR in this example; it's like a chariot receiving a S7 hit and blowing up instantly.

Nurgling Chieftain
13-12-2009, 04:18
It's possible for the attacker to allocate attacks to specific models in base contact. However, that's not usually a good idea unless you're striking characters or unit champions. If you do allocate to specific models, there's no "blow-through" and additional damage done to that specific model is wasted.

Otherwise... Here's the thing. You do not get to allocate instant-kill or multipled-wounds hits in such a way as to waste damage. So, something like taking two instant-deaths from the blade of realities on a single model, or even taking such a hit on a damaged model when an undamaged model is available, those sorts of "minimize damage" techniques are illegal.

So, if the blade hits three times, you take three tests, and if you fail two, two (whole if possible) chariots are destroyed, and then the third hit is resolved as normal.

Ymir
13-12-2009, 04:28
Alright, that seems to make sense. Except for this part:


or even taking such a hit on a damaged model when an undamaged model is available, those sorts of "minimize damage" techniques are illegal.

If the Oldblood doesn't target a specific chariot (and if he did, like you said, additional damage would be wasted), how come the wounds/losses doesn't have to be allocated beginning with models that are already wounded, as that would be the case in every other circumstance?

Ultimate Life Form
13-12-2009, 04:32
You do not allocate any wounds. We're talking about the 'to hit' roll here. There AREN'T any wounds yet. You simply remove a chariot. The 3 wounds suffered are caused by the loss of the chariot, not the other way around. That's what I tried to tell you earlier.

Ymir
13-12-2009, 04:54
Ah, yes, of course, but still, if he doesn't target a specific model, isn't it up to me to choose who is hit? (I guess the rules would imply that models in base contact are hit as you can't attack back if enough models are killed, but it's never the models in base contact that is actually removed, as it's assumed that other models step in to fill their killed comrades' place...should it be with Blade of Realities?)

Nurgling Chieftain
13-12-2009, 05:10
...isn't it up to me to choose who is hit?No, there's really no such choice at all. Even under the most ordinary circumstances, you simply remove models evenly from both sides of the rear rank.

Nor would it matter; technically, wounds that aren't sufficient to kill a model in a unit of multiple-wound models are suffered by the unit rather than by an individual model in that unit. They're "floating wounds" until a model is removed. I strongly suggest that you carefully review the rules on the right hand column of page 31, including the example.

Witchblade
13-12-2009, 05:15
It's possible for the attacker to allocate attacks to specific models in base contact. However, that's not usually a good idea unless you're striking characters or unit champions. If you do allocate to specific models, there's no "blow-through" and additional damage done to that specific model is wasted.

Otherwise... Here's the thing. You do not get to allocate instant-kill or multipled-wounds hits in such a way as to waste damage. So, something like taking two instant-deaths from the blade of realities on a single model, or even taking such a hit on a damaged model when an undamaged model is available, those sorts of "minimize damage" techniques are illegal.

So, if the blade hits three times, you take three tests, and if you fail two, two (whole if possible) chariots are destroyed, and then the third hit is resolved as normal.
This is how my group has always played it, based on p.31 of the rulebook. It's analogous to a S7 model striking at a unit of chariots, a cannonball hitting a unit of ogres or a Carnasaur (inflicts D3 wounds) ripping on Ushabti.

Edit: ninja'd by the person I was quoting. :\

Ymir
13-12-2009, 06:00
Okay, but I consider this solved then, even though I still find it strange that already wounded models aren't removed first (but I do get the principle behind your reasoning). Thanks!

hill9969
13-12-2009, 07:21
I find how people are describing this scenario weird also. I think you should have the character wielding the blade hit one at a time and have to allocate the hits.

I say this because if the character attacks and you pass the LD test, but the hit still wounds then the model has 2 wounds left. If another hit goes through without changing the model hit and this time the model fails its LD test, you remove a full model from play? This gives an incorrect advantage to the attacker. I think the mistake in the previous reasoning is that chariots have 3 wounds so people are treating it as if the weapon does 3 wounds which it does not. The weapon kills instantly no matter the wounds. A failed LD test means a model gone. Not three wounds done. The wounds are just for combat resolution purposes.

Ymir
13-12-2009, 07:24
Yeah, that's why I'm confused by this. Maybe it doesn't matter with Tomb Kings chariots though, they'll never pass that leadership test anyhow.

Nurgling Chieftain
13-12-2009, 07:54
I think you should have the character wielding the blade hit one at a time and have to allocate the hits.Allocating attacks is allowed, not required (unless there are no rank'n'file to attack).


This gives an incorrect advantage to the attacker.Taking instant-kills from supposedly wounded models gives an incorrect advantage to the defender, effectively erasing wounds.


A failed LD test means a model gone. Not three wounds done.This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the rules for taking casualties on multiple-wound units works. "Three wounds done" is exactly what it means and that fact is rather explicit in the rules as referenced earlier.

hill9969
13-12-2009, 08:13
Which rules? Cause I read all of pg 31 and it didn't say anything about this. It talked about applying 9 single wounds to a target or about if hit by a multi-wound attack the maximum of wounds done is the remaining wounds on the model/profile.

Nurgling Chieftain
13-12-2009, 08:44
Hill9969, I'm not sure what to say when you claim to read a section and come back with something diametrically contrary to what that section says.

Let's go through it again, step by step.

When you take wounds, you remove whole models, and leave any extra wounds assigned to the unit, and not to a given model in the unit.

When you take hits that can cause multiple wounds, they cause wounds up to the amount on a single model's profile. There is no "remaining" clause here - individual models in such a unit are not wounded at all, merely present or removed when enough wounds are caused.

You add up the wounds caused and remove models as appropriate. This step has nothing to do with which individual models received the wounds in question - you can lose two three-wound models by taking two wounds on each of three models.

Which parts of that are you not getting from the text? There is no way to "magically disappear" wounds by taking hits on already wounded models because there is no such thing as a wounded model in a unit of multiple-wound models in the first place.

hill9969
13-12-2009, 10:24
I am with you in you understanding up to this part -


Which parts of that are you not getting from the text? There is no way to "magically disappear" wounds by taking hits on already wounded models because there is no such thing as a wounded model in a unit of multiple-wound models in the first place.

On pg 31 the second column first paragraph gives an example of a unit of ogres taking 5 wounds. One ogre is remove from play. The rules state to keep track of wounds done to the unit. Then the rules state that if the unit takes another wound another ogre is removed from play.

The way you are presenting the rules to me doesn't make since because it is possible to allocate specific attacks against specific models to avoid being attacked back by that model. With multi-wound models it may take a round or two for this to happen. If the attacking unit has different initiative values, a situation might crop up in which you allocated two wounds to a model on the right side of the unit, but in the next round an attacker on the left side causes a wound forcing the left side model to not get attacks back, causing the previously allocated wounds to be for naught.

They way you understand how to remove causalities conflicts with my understand of being able to allocate attacks. I don't mean to be a pain but I am an Ogre player so I need to have a solider understanding of these rules. Also I was under the impression that you remove whole models when possible not always.

Anyway thanks for you time.

narrativium
13-12-2009, 11:31
You don't allocate wounds against specific rank and file models, you just choose, where appropriate, to target characters or champions, or which unit to attack if need be. Likewise rank and file models in a unit in a sense don't have individual wounds; each models has an individual characteristic but wounds are absorbed by the unit, and models are lost for each time the individual wounds 'threshold' is met.

So: an Ogre unit of three models, in one rank, in combat on both flanks. On the right flank, two wounds are caused; on the left, one is caused. Arguably this now means you now have three Ogres with three different amounts of damage - on the left, a two-Wound Ogre; in the middle, a three-Wound Ogre; on the right, a one-Wound Ogre. But we don't keep track of hits in this way - three wounds are caused, we have one dead Ogre and two Ogres on full Wounds. The Ogre player chooses which engaged model is removed, and the remaining engaged model attacks back.

Kal Taron
13-12-2009, 12:14
Easy fix for the Blade of Realities: Make it 105pts. This thing should have never existed in the first place. (Ok, so should some other things but it's quite a bad offender.)

nosferatu1001
13-12-2009, 12:55
Actually Narrativium you can allocate against specific RnF, for example to stop them hitting your squishy mage, but its rarely a good idea.

jaxom
13-12-2009, 21:48
On pg 31 the second column first paragraph gives an example of a unit of ogres taking 5 wounds. One ogre is remove from play. The rules state to keep track of wounds done to the unit. Then the rules state that if the unit takes another wound another ogre is removed from play.


The key point here is that it does *not* say "another wound to the same ogre." In fact, they explicitly state that the wounds being carried over have been done "to the unit".

The second paragraph goes on to explain that when a unit of multiwound models takes hits which are distributed across the unit you then sum them up and remove casualties as normal.

The point of all this is to say that, as it applies to The Blade of Realities, if a multi-wound unit is the target, then removing the model means removing as many wounds as a rank-and-file model has. Do this repeatedly, sum up the number of wounds taken and remove casualties accordingly.

Nurgling Chieftain
13-12-2009, 22:12
On pg 31 the second column first paragraph gives an example of a unit of ogres taking 5 wounds. One ogre is remove from play. The rules state to keep track of wounds done to the unit. Then the rules state that if the unit takes another wound another ogre is removed from play.Good, good.


The way you are presenting the rules to me doesn't make since because it is possible to allocate specific attacks against specific models to avoid being attacked back by that model.That's an exception to the normal rules, and frankly, in the case of allocating to specific rank'n'file models, it's an almost never used exception, at that, precisely because it prevents wounds from spilling over from that particular model.


Also I was under the impression that you remove whole models when possible not always.Who said anything about "always"? If there's only one model left and it's taken two wounds and you insta-kill it, that's an exception. "When possible" is certainly "almost always" but it's not "always".

EDIT: Through specifically allocated attacks, it is possible to "magically erase" wounds. For example, if the blade of realities allocated all its attacks to a specific ogre and inflicted one normal wound and one instant kill, that one normal wound would be effectively ignored. That's why people don't tend to allocate attacks to specific rank'n'file models!

WusteGeist
14-12-2009, 05:38
Just to toss some more fuel in here think about this nasty piece of work for a second when it comes to the blade of realities.
Skaven screaming bell and plague furnace. Neither has a leadership value, the blade clearly states on its own unmodified leadership. Has none pop goes the bell or furnace. Best part is there is zero room to argue this, so watch out rat boys the lizards just might wreck your day. Oh and the skull wand of kalloth works same way LOL LOL.