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soots
14-12-2009, 00:25
Ok guys, put on your OP BS hat and tell us what you want to see :)

1. Im hoping lance stays 3 wide. it isnt overpowered and 4 wide would look to RnFish rather than a lance.
2. Impact hits for horses on charge rather than attacks?
3. Foot knights. WS4. Heavy + Shield, or heavy + GW. Ld8. I think its time!
4. Questing knights. Change great weapons to a cavalry hammer. +1S always, one handed.
5. Large monster for Bret? Seems to be the norm now. I cant see bretonians fielding a large monster, but i can see them fielding a Heroic Knight "Ladies Champion" of some sort. Perhaps Ws6 S4 T4 W3 I4 A4 Ld9 Vs large creatures he rerolls hits, gains +2S and does D3 wounds. Cannot join units. Ward blessing 3+ vs shooting, 4+ in combat. Rare. Grail virtue. 180pts
6. Pegasus knights moved to rare slot.
7. Virtue points in addition to magic point allowance.

Damocles8
14-12-2009, 01:02
You pretty much summed up my issues with it lol,

although I'd like to see Armor Piercing on Bowmen......and refit some of the magic items so they have a use now.....

brawnyman1989
14-12-2009, 01:32
They should have a magic phase, so that Damsels can actually cast something while in the middle of a unit

Canadian_Khan
14-12-2009, 02:10
I think most of your ideas a great ones... espacially the foot knights... the only thing beeing: we don't want them to look like Greatswords or Swordmasters... so what do we give them? Greatswords are 4+ save... so maybe a 3+ save would be the way to do it... I dunno

I don't agree with the PK going rare, I still want my 2 trebs! lol... The only way I could agree on PK going rare is by making a "2 counts as one" composition rule.

Damsels beeing able to cast something in the lance formation would also be cool...

Also as questing knights don't wear hammers... why no just have them wield swords, but have them strike at S4 all the time... taking off the GW rule too (what's that... wield a greatsword on a horse, just try to keep your balance already!)

But for the rest, you are right on... I miss a deadly monster, and your virtue is pooint is the best!

Lord Dan
14-12-2009, 03:14
I don't think Brets need a monster.

Devil Tree
14-12-2009, 03:16
Sword, shield and heavy armor would seem to be the most fitting kit for Bretonian heavy infantry, but I suppose heavy armor and great weapons could work too. I'd imagine they represent the youngest siblings weren't likely to inherit anything, hedge knights or those that fell on hard times.

I agree with moving Pegasus knights to rare, a bunch of guys on flying horses shouldn’t be as common as they are now. I could see a wealthy, high magic army like HE being able to field lots of them, but not a society mired in the dung ages.

While it seems to be the current trend to give armies big monsters, I don’t think it would work with Bretonians. They tend to be homicidal maniacs when it comes to hunting them all down. The monster slayer is a good idea though.

Duke Georgal
14-12-2009, 03:29
1. I'm hoping lance goes to normal rank and file, but second rank attacks on charge. Nice and simple. Makes sense.
2. Horses still get regular attacks on charge.
3. Foot knights would be nice option. Should be rare.
4. Questing knights get +2S for great weapon from horseback.
5. Just keep Hippogrif, it is fine as is.
6. Pegasus knights kept as special. No way make them core.
7. Virtue points in addition to magic point allowance sounds good.
8. Get rid of that rediculous trebuchet and instead give ranked bretonnian bowmen indirect fire range 48" S2.

thechosenone
14-12-2009, 03:31
I don't think brets need a big gribbly monster but something noble, chivalric and thematic might be fine. Like a Griffin or Hipocampus, a giant lion, something proud.

soots
14-12-2009, 03:39
Hmmm. Horse impact hits could be similar to Ogres.

Ogre would be what? 300kg-400kg?

A horse would be 500kg and moving a lot faster :)

I like the idea of 2nd rank attacks. But it really isnt a lance formation anymore!

warhawk95
14-12-2009, 03:40
Bretts dont need a monster, I actually think you will see the virtues seperate from magic weapons will be the obvious change. Plus bretts have a KB against large targets. I think that is were the focus will be on the heroes being boosted up a bit and being able to take on big monsters. A foot knight would be cool, also I really like the hammer idea. I think a lady champ might be cool, but wouldnt count on it. The brettonia lore has always intrested me so Im hoping they can add some depth to the army, and Ill give it a try.

ChaosVC
14-12-2009, 04:44
I wish they have more horses and people and horses and people...awww so beautiful.

Foegnasher
14-12-2009, 04:55
i think a lot of the above ideas are good. foot knights? well it doesnt fit the fluff, but they might be cool.

i too think that a big monster is completely out of character for the brets.

and the questing knights need a fix. they suck in the current rules.

the archers need to keep thier flameing attacks. but maybe some "professional longbowman" that arnt scabby, have good bs, and armor pierceing. i think it would be cool.

brets also should have access to xbows. just sayin'.

they are low tech compared to the empire, but have better cav. maybe mount upgrades? who knows maybe they spilled the grail in a trough and the horses went all holey-glowey.

i want to see a viable bret foot slogger list. horde of scabby peasants, with as few of knights as possible. but that's just the skaven in me comeing out.

Ramius4
14-12-2009, 05:14
I would like to see Peasant Hero level characters. Not even ones that are as good as a Goblin Hero, something like WS 4, BS4, S3, T3, W2, I4, A2, Ld7. Give them a measly 25 point magic item allowance and make them a 2 for 1 Hero choice.

Split the allowance for magic items and virtues. Also, allow Lords to choose up to 2 virtues like they could in the old days.

Foot Knights. Just heavy armor, shield, and perhaps a morning star. Don't fit the fluff you say? Call them Penitent Knights. They have dishonored themselves in some fashion and are not allowed to ride their warhorse until they fulfil their penance. Done and done. 0-1 choice.

Squires on Foot. These could either fill the role of a medium infantry or perhaps a nice skirmish/scout unit with longbows and BS4.

Damsels and Prophetess with a rule allowing them to draw line of sight through the unit they are in. Then they could keep the fun and fluffy rule allowing them to go inside of knight units.

Questing Knights. Simple. Drop them a few points and give them morning stars instead of a great weapon.

I don't feel the bowmen need any kind of boost, but perhaps dropping them down to 7 points per model is in order.

The Grail Reliquae. Reduce it slightly in cost so that I actually feel like using it.

Bring back the Bowmen of Bergerac!

That's about it for me.

Charistoph
14-12-2009, 05:17
Foot Knights are definitely fluffy, you can't ride your horse on a battlement.

As for a monster, just a monstrous knight or altar type unit would work.

R Man
14-12-2009, 05:19
although I'd like to see Armor Piercing on Bowmen......and refit some of the magic items so they have a use now.....

Why not give them Multiple shots? It would be more accurate to what bows were taken over crossbows for, rate of fire.


3. Foot knights would be nice option. Should be rare.

Do you mean rare as in uncommon, or rare as in Rare choice? Because there is no way to make a sensible infantry unit that can be rare. They would be a much better special choice.


4. Questing knights get +2S for great weapon from horseback.

Which defies the point of nerfing GW in the last edition. If anything, they should act as halberds, that way they don't change in strength but still get to use their initiative.


8. Get rid of that rediculous trebuchet and instead give ranked bretonnian bowmen indirect fire range 48" S2.

So the trebuchet is ridiculous but bowmen shooting longer than elves and as long as bolt thowers isn't? Besides the Trebuchet is one of the better Bretonnian units, very useful and the archer change would be absolutley useless for any practical reason.

soots
14-12-2009, 05:28
Hmmm. bowmen ideas...

One is perhaps allowing Bowmen to fire support fire on a knights charge. So declare charges and charge reactions, then before moving knights, free round of fire with your bowmen :)

or

Fire a volley shot. Number of models in unit define template size and strength.

or

Volley shot. No need for LOS. Unmodified chance to hit.

Ramius4
14-12-2009, 05:31
The thing about the Bowmen is that there really is nothing to support an increase in abilities for them.

They aren't underpowered... They're just slightly overpriced. Big difference.

Lusall
14-12-2009, 06:13
The thing about the Bowmen is that there really is nothing to support an increase in abilities for them.

They aren't underpowered... They're just slightly overpriced. Big difference.

Pretty much...though I think all longbows should be armor piercing at short ranged. The book Knight Errant even says that a straight shot from a long bow would kill a Knight.

As for foot knights and questing knights...combine them. It's not a huge leap to exapnd on what the Questing knights give up. They give up their lance as a symbol, but...what about the horse? Maybe some questing knights wish to take things further.

The lance...I don't know. Doesn't really need to be changed. I dig its current way of functioning. Though I too have thought about fighting in two ranks.

The impact hit thing with the horses also has crossed my mind, and I think it should at least be looked at far more closely. I really want Heavy Cav to work like they're supposed to!

The only thing I'd like as far as true wish listing goes...make Knights of the Realm S4.

That's about all I can think of right now.

edit: Oh...and PKs are fine as is. No need to change. :) Keep as special. No need for a big monster...we've got the Gryph.
Ladies need to be able to see out of the lance. For sure. And all Damsels need access to Lore of Heavens. And of course...agree with the virtues seperate from magic item limit.

To be totally honest...our army book (I mean the Bretonnian list of course!) has survived the test of time better than most. And that's because our list is pretty solid. So I think the changes need to be tweaked. Not really changed a whole lot.

Freman Bloodglaive
14-12-2009, 07:19
Bring back the Bowmen of Bergerac!

I agree with this.

Pickle_mole
14-12-2009, 07:30
what about just some heavy infantry? instead of the whole knight business

TroyJPerez
14-12-2009, 08:26
Do brets really need a buff? In the local tournaments I play in they seem to do really well if played right. They could use a magic item update to fix their out of date stuff and I could see strength 4 horses being added maybe. But come on ranks at 3 wide for cavalry is still a very powerful rule.

EmperorNorton
14-12-2009, 10:18
First and foremost they need some more units to add variety.
Knights on foot always get mentioned, because that's a rather obvious option the list lacks currently, but beyond that it gets difficult.
As the current trend is to include more special characters I think it's a fairly safe bet that Repanse de Lyonesse will reappear, and Bertrand le Brigand would be a great unit upgrade for archers (like Skweel Gnawthooth in the Skaven book or Tullaris for the Dark Elves).

Artinam
14-12-2009, 12:42
Keep the Bretonnians similar to how they are now, maybe add a few units for some more varierity. (There are as much Peasant Choices as there are Knight Choices, excepting the Heroes).

Don't tinker to much them, improve Men-at-arms or make them more Cheaper, Questing Knights need a fance rule or be reduced in cost, The relique needs to become cheaper or get a fancy new rule.
Add some new items, maybe Virtues seperate from Magic Item allowment and bam, they are good to go.

Bowmen are dirtcheap for what they do, 6 points you get a BS 3 Longbow armed Peasant with the Peasants Duty. Very well worth the points. The Knights of Foot, might be a unit primarily for sieges, heck even unofficial rules would be great for this.

Ramius4
14-12-2009, 18:39
Do brets really need a buff? In the local tournaments I play in they seem to do really well if played right. They could use a magic item update to fix their out of date stuff and I could see strength 4 horses being added maybe. But come on ranks at 3 wide for cavalry is still a very powerful rule.

The simple answer is no, they don't need a buff.

What they utterly lack with the exception of PK is variety in the types of lists they can field.

I know I'm not the only one who gets tired of fielding them with 90% of my points spent on mounted knights with very little infantry support. And it's not that Men At Arms aren't priced appropriately, but by the time the battle is really underway they're usually left so far behind where the knights are that they are never a factor in the game.

It would be nice to be able to field a more infantry based army (for those that wish to do so), and still have mounted knights, but in more of a support role.

Adding in a Peasant Hero character choice would go a long way towards making that a viable option. And adding a 0-1 unit of either foot knights or perhaps a heavier infantry would do that as well.

Allowing the sorceresses to draw line of sight through their own unit wouldn't really be a 'buff'. It simply would allow them to do something they could do when the book was written (6th). You see, in 6th the Lores of Magic were different. When 7th came, most all of the spells available to Bret Sorceresses became line of sight. This really took away the value of being able to sit inside of a knight unit since half the spells you get, you can't cast from there.

Anyways, just my two cents.

Malorian
14-12-2009, 18:45
Personally I'd make these changes:

-Horses are str 4
-Lance formation only gets rank bonus on the charge
-Lance formation causes fear when they charge
-Questing knights get +2 str for their great weapons on the charge
-Pegasus knights are rare and become special if general is on a royal peg
-0-1 dropped from pegs and grail knights
-Grail knight blessing give 4+ ward save all the time
-Vows do not come from point allowance

GuyLeCheval
14-12-2009, 18:55
Personally I'd make these changes:

-Horses are str 4
-Lance formation only gets rank bonus if they charge
-Lance formationmakes immune to psychologywhen they charge
-Questing knights get +2 str for their great weapons always, by making them 'special great weapons'
-Pegasus knights are rare and become special if general is on a royal peg
-0-1 dropped from pegs and grail knights
-Grail knight blessing give 4+ ward save all the time
-Vows do not come from point allowance
Hero on peg can join peg units

What I'd change is in red.

soots
14-12-2009, 19:36
I dunno about a peasant hero. It would have to be a special char.A peasant strives to become a knight.

Any peasant that has made a name for himself without becoming a knight would definately be a one off.

As for losing rank bonus after charge, i think thats nasty and unnecessary. Knights that dont break the enemy on the charge are doomed anyways, and knights still have major issues vs unbreakable/stubborn. Losing their rank bonus will only compound this.

-Grimgorironhide-
14-12-2009, 20:49
Some of my wishes.

1. You can take one virtue in addtion to magic items.
2. Fix some of the worthless virtues (Pentient) and magic items (Scarament).
3. Make the Grail Vow 50pts but it gives +1 WS, I and A in addtion to ItP.
4. Add in a Peasant commander in the Hero slots.
5. Allow Damsels and Prophetess to use the lore of light.
6. Make MAA Ws 3, Ld 6 (no Ld increase on the champ)
7. Make the skirmishing bowmen: you cannot have more skirmished Bowmen than normal bowmen.
7. Move Peg Knights to rare.
8. Add in a Foot Yeomen Scout unit in special.
9. Add in a Foot Knight unit. Mabye knights who have disgraced the Lady and are trying to win back their honour.
10. Questing Knights get a rule which allows them to re-roll failed rolls to wound against Large targets or something.
11. Grail Knights T4, cause fear and 45pts.
12. Bring back the old SC: Tristen and Jules, Bertrand, Rapanse etc.
13. Plastic Grail Knights, Battle Pilgrims and Trebuchet.

cheers.

R Man
14-12-2009, 22:04
They could use a magic item update to fix their out of date stuff and I could see strength 4 horses being added maybe.


-Horses are str 4

This would be a terrible change. All it would do is once again force players to play a knight only force. Bretonnian Knights are fine, they don't need more power. What they need is more variety.


-Lance formation causes fear when they charge

As I said before, is this really necessary? Are not Knightly charges devestating enough?


-Questing knights get +2 str for their great weapons on the charge

Which defies the point of the original rule change.


-Pegasus knights are rare and become special if general is on a royal peg

Which means that RAF is still a problem.


-Lance formation makes immune to psychology when they charge

But we have that on Knights Errant. Its there thing. Besides, everything is getting Immune to Psychology. Its becoming excessive.

Its very odd that one day people here can be attacking GW for codex creep when the next day they are making the exact same errors without any irony.

Malorian
14-12-2009, 22:12
Strength 4 horses makes sense because 1. horses are stronger than people, and 2. bret horses are suppose to be highly trained warhorses (ignoring barding is nice but they should still be str4 to show it).

Bretonnian knight charges are suppose to be devestating and so I think having a full lance of knights thundering towards you should cause fear and then it would also make them mroe competitive with deamons and undead.

The +2 on great weapons was changed to not make it the default choice for all characters. Questing knights and those wolf empire knights just got caught in the cross-fire.

RAF isn't a problem.


I'm not pushing for codex creep, I'm pushing for brets to be more charge based like they are suppose to be. Bravely charging into battle to crush all foes... but if they don't break the opponent they are screwed...

soots
14-12-2009, 22:21
Im just wondering if you could make questing knights on foot.

It would make sense as they may travel long distances, then they might have to enter an old cave on foot to find the grail (e.g Indiana Jones last crusade where they had to do the quests/tasks on foot). Also it would fit in with the fluff of not using a lance.

So you would have

Teir 1 Knights - Grail
Teir 2 Knights - Questing
Teir 3 Knights - Realm
Teir 4 Knights - Errant

Im not too sure about Errants being Ws3 either. gaming terms it works, but fluffwise, id expect even the lowly Errant knights to be decent fighters as theyve earned the right to become knights. That is, unless you make them medium cavalry rather than knights.

I like the idea of making the grail virtue a lot more significant. As grail finders are not only better fighters, but they have been abnormally blessed with the powers of the lady.

(Fast Cavalry) Yeoman = As is
(Cavalry) Errantry = WS3 No barding, Heavy + Shield. 17 pts.
(Knights) Realm = As is. 22Pts.
(Knights) Questing = WS4 S4 T3 I4 A1 Ld8. Heavy + Shield. 10 Pts.
(Knights) Grail = As is. 4+ Ward.

Ramius4
14-12-2009, 22:57
I dunno about a peasant hero. It would have to be a special char.A peasant strives to become a knight.

Wrong. Peasants pretty much never become knights if you read the background. It's not allowed within their society, much like in Medieval times in real life. Something like that threatens the whole concept of nobility.

Being a hero does not make one a noble within Bretonnian society.

There's no reason that a Peasant could not be treated as a loyal retainer if he was skilled. No reason to stop them from becoming the 'captain of the guard' or the 'seneshal of the keep', or some other such thing.

Would they be allowed to own property? No. They're not nobles. But sure they could lead their Lord's Men At Arms units into battle on their behalf while their Lord rides out with the rest of the Knights.

I_ated_Warpstone
14-12-2009, 23:07
Any peasant that has made a name for himself without becoming a knight would definately be a one off.

There are mentions in the books of wardens and other "ranking" peasants. I think it's entirely feasible to have a peasant hero choice, something like a Captain of the Home Guard. He wouldn't be amazing but he could be a peasant general type(allowing peasants to use his LD). A decent stat line (WS4, S3, LD 8) maybe. Maybe he'd boost a single unit of Men At Arms(the Home Guard?).

Ramius4
14-12-2009, 23:13
There are mentions in the books of wardens and other "ranking" peasants. I think it's entirely feasible to have a peasant hero choice, something like a Captain of the Home Guard. He wouldn't be amazing but he could be a peasant general type(allowing peasants to use his LD).

Exactly my point.

I'd actually prefer to see them as a VERY middle of the road choice. As I said earlier, perhaps not even as effective as say a Goblin Hero. Just 2 Attacks with a basic Strength and Toughness of 3, Leadership 7. Make them very cheap, 2 for 1 choices with only a 25 point magic item allowance (they're still kinda destitute after all).

Gallock
14-12-2009, 23:20
Since Bretonia is warhammer's middle-ages themed army I would like to see more variety in troop types.

Foot Knights (Sword and shield or pollaxe style weapon)
Retinue Longbowmen (str4 bows at under half range)
Retinue Billmen (some sort of defensive boon)
Ws3 men at arms (if you're gonna give them all that gear, at least teach them to fight better then snotlings)

Maybe the last 2 could be upgrades for peasants if you take virtue of empathy?

All these are aimed towards variety and choice not to limit people who want to run all knights.

tezdal
14-12-2009, 23:35
I'd like to see option to have all types of Knights footknights (KE, KR,QK,GK), would come in handy for siege games and such. Also would like Men at Arms to be upped (I mean theyre retainers not just guys off the street) and then have a true peasant rabble unit using scythe's and farm tools, would give a good feel (maybe even not give them shoes, like the empire)

R Man
15-12-2009, 03:38
Strength 4 horses makes sense because 1. horses are stronger than people, and 2. bret horses are suppose to be highly trained warhorses (ignoring barding is nice but they should still be str4 to show it).

But you could argue the same for all mounts, and then we'd have to up them too, and then we'd have to up Cold ones as well and so on. Bret horses may be very good, but they are not that far ahead. Besides balance is a concern.


Bretonnian knight charges are suppose to be devestating and so I think having a full lance of knights thundering towards you should cause fear and then it would also make them mroe competitive with deamons and undead.

And it would screw over orcs, goblins, empire, some chaos, elves,possibly even dwarves. And you don't find 8+ attacks from riders and 7+ attacks from mounts combined with rank bonuses to be devastating enough?


The +2 on great weapons was changed to not make it the default choice for all characters. Questing knights and those wolf empire knights just got caught in the cross-fire.

And changes would lead to questions being asked about how a 400 year old vampire with super strength can't figure out how to use these weapons while a 40 year old human who's only moderately strong can. Better to make them like Halberds, so they can use that initiative they have.


RAF isn't a problem.

Fortunatley, thanks to fear causing armies. But it is still annoying.


I'm not pushing for codex creep, I'm pushing for brets to be more charge based like they are suppose to be. Bravely charging into battle to crush all foes... but if they don't break the opponent they are screwed...

Which is very bad as it reduces the game to a mere handful of events mostly decided by dice rolls. Knights should not be so overwhelming as to plough through any and all non-stubborn troops without support, nor should they be abandoned to hopeless failure against anything with unbreakable. Ideally, Knights should be able to pick of the weaker units while supported by missile fire and using infantry to pin or distract stronger units until the knights can hit them from the flank. Conversly opponents should not feel that 2/3ds of their army is useless. By clever use of their general, and battle standard they should be able to at least attempt to hold of knights with stubborn or better quality troops while attempting to bait the knights or take out their support leaving them isolated and vulnerable.

Ramius4
15-12-2009, 03:45
R MAN I too see it that way.

People want their Longbows to be better, horses to be stronger, etc. That's just the way of things when you ask people what they'd like to see in an army book.

Balance is the last thing you generally see in a wishlist unfortunately.

Again, my hope is for modest additions to the list just to make a couple more types of army lists viable. We'll see, the book is most likely a long way off.

Pickle_mole
15-12-2009, 04:41
i just want more peasents :)

Foegnasher
15-12-2009, 04:44
after playing brets in 2 of my last 5 games. (1 massacre for, 1 massacre against) i think there are some things that could be changed to give the list more flexiblity, so that you see different kinds of bret lists, and not just the 4-5 lance busses you see now.

1) they need another war machine. like a ballista (bigger, stronger bolt thrower)

2) tehy need better specials to compete with the really good ones they have now (scouting yeomen? c'mon if anybody has fast cav with the scout rule you know it's the brets.)

3) fix the damsels. they need access to more than two lores of magic. mayber even a bretonian special lore? alternively, they could get access to battle-mages.

4) find a way to get the Lady invoved in the game besides giveing the entire army a ward save at the expense of thier first turn.

5) nasty midevil tactics. this is a midevil army, where is the boiling oil? where's the burning pitch? let's see some inventivness here.

6) the 1-0 removed off the knights. if somebody wants to bring a scabby peasant horde, they should be able to. maybe the general must be a knight, even if he is on foot. would lead to more than one build, for sure.

those are my ideas, what do you think?

Zarroc
15-12-2009, 06:33
More Choice and better magic item selection, maybe a few cheaper units

Another way of getting the ladies blessing with out given up first turn.....

More KNIGHTS :D

Phelix
15-12-2009, 07:00
"Hedge" Knights: Knights on Foot, these are peasants who, through some heroic means (or extraordinary luck), attained knighthood. They are awarded armor and weapons normally used by the Knights of the Realm and are formed into their own units, where they form a solid block of infantry.

(essentially foot knights, but fluffier, since Hedge Knights were real things....The term coming from "over the hedge" which separated the royalty from the peasantry)

Also why is everyone against the Hippogriff? Sure its a monster but its a Bretonian monster and a noble creature at that. Its just Im not sure Bretonia would be the same without it.... well maybe if you just kept Louen Leoncours Hippogriff, so its something thats unique to him.

hwd
15-12-2009, 13:08
Personally...
1. Sort out the magic phase; give us own own spell lore that benefits us or let us take a decent lore from the BRB
2. Magic Item allowance and separate virtues
3. Sort out special characters

Done

Dark14
15-12-2009, 15:12
1. Better longbows- they changed warfare more than any weapon and basicly started teh first arms race. They could penetrate plate armour this needs to be shown better than wounding on fives against all these armies and then having them pass normal saves.

2.Flavour morning star style- All army's want flavour here it is a nasty weapon right from out period of time. Its so deadly it could kill the person wielding it. Give it to questing knights as no one uses a two handed weapon on a horse or give it to all knights instead of handweapons.

3. Foot knights-its just so obvious.... knights fought on foot as much as on a horse easy rewrite of fluff for a group that said SoC didnt happen.

4. Magic- bring it back to 6th edition before the book atleast. Our own lore mostly defensive would be great but give us access to something that can do damage and not waste hero slots atleast.

5. Horses- Just have to agree with everyone else if they all get strength 4 we should best horses in the world need to have something more over those shaggy empire horses. On this note however cold ones need to be fixed now because that was there advantage previously now they are just a stupid horse.

As for the beast thing i like grail how the are(short of a need in defense they shouldnt die like an errant) but they could be the "beast" like add on. Read our fluff and the books knight errant and realm. Reolus was fought a Chaos lord,Chaos dwarf lord, Giant and basicly hacked apart every guy who wasn't even good enough to own a name badge yet like they were nothing. This is how they are in Fluff a 1 wound guy doesnt cut it especially in a power creep with 3 st6 attack core units ty for that khorne...

TheDarkDuke
15-12-2009, 18:21
So basically most of you want Brets to become an Empire state?

The fluff on them is your either a noble which are knights with what the nobles consider a must be trained and bread to ride and fight on horseback, or your a peasant with you greatest possible achievement to become a M@A and only the extremely rare chance to become a Yeoman. To start putting nobles in units on foot, and peasant heroes is to simply make them Empire with different rules. No thanks for me.

Malorian
15-12-2009, 18:22
So basically most of you want Brets to become an Empire state?

Hell no, and my knights will gladly run down those that do :evilgrin:

knightwire
15-12-2009, 19:30
So basically most of you want Brets to become an Empire state?

The fluff on them is your either a noble which are knights with what the nobles consider a must be trained and bread to ride and fight on horseback, or your a peasant with you greatest possible achievement to become a M@A and only the extremely rare chance to become a Yeoman. To start putting nobles in units on foot, and peasant heroes is to simply make them Empire with different rules. No thanks for me.

I think you've read the fluff with a little too much tunnel vision.

Knights can fight on foot for Bretonnia. Especially on a war ravaged campaign deep into enemy territory, there are going to be Knights that run out of Warhorses (or only had one or two to start with for the less wealthy Knights). Are those Knights going to just sit back at camp and play parcheesi? Let's be rational a little here. Make a unit of Foot Knights, make them Rare and limited to 1 for every Lord or some such. Give them a weapon options for HW/Shield, Morningstar/Shield, or GW. Also give them a special rule... something like Penitent Fury (or something else that sounds cool) that lets them gain Frenzy if they win a round of combat (sending them recklessly out of control) as they are desperate to prove their honor and prowess despite getting dismounted. (Of course you know every Knight with a horse will still see them as schmucks until they are back in the saddle... despite the logic):)

Also peasant heros aren't Bretonnian? Nothing says Bretonnian to me more than the Knight's charging off and leaving most of the peons back home to fend for themselves. Besides the fact that you know some of these Knights would be absolutely screwed running their domains without a right hand man type peasant/warden class leader doing all the work. Leaders would arise even from the peasants.


Here's my vote for Foot Knights and Peasant Heros GW! :D

Pickle_mole
15-12-2009, 20:05
^agreed

As previosly mentioned i would like to see some medieval infantry weapons like bills etc.

Awilla the Hun
15-12-2009, 21:37
Comrade Von Stahl wants this for his improved Red Guards, and any other Bretonnians considering joining the revolution, and deserting their reactionary feudal masters!

1) 4 point Men at Arms. Clanrats are cheaper (and even with spear and shield, they are equal to the men at arms in points), have better stats, and a similar rule to give them extra leadership. State Troops are the same in cost, but have better stats and comparable equipment. We need to overwhelm these Counter Revolutionaries, Comrades! Longbowmen are fine as they are, more or less. (I mean, High Elf longbowmen are only slightly more damaging due to their better marksmanship. Why should the Bretonnians be any better? The thought of a peasant getting a better bow than these Immortalist Pig Dogs frankly beggars belief.)

2) The magic item that gives extra power at the expense of the Damsel casting anything to be allowed to do something useful.

3) Questing Knights who can use their great weapons properly, giving them +2 strength on horseback.

4) Grail Knights that can happily wallop every other sort of heavy cavalry in the game one to one (more so in lance formation), but at a hefty cost. It's pathetic to see mere Vampire Blood Knights and Chaos Knights smashing these fine sons of Bretonnia into the ground!

5) Possibly a Questing Knight character on foot, scouting, wielding his great weapon, and chopping stuff up on his heroic quest.

6) Comrade von Stahl to be mentioned in the fluff. This poster's ego trip says that it's about time! (Or, at least, there being a peasant hero.)

7) George R R Martin references in the fluff. I'm pretty sure he takes a few from warhammer (Tyrion the heroic warrior prince as an ugly, scheming dwarf is a particularly ironic one, I reckon, as is a baldheaded, red robe wearing warrior priest in one of the tournaments.) It is time, comrades, to return the favour.

8) Fluffwise, I'm all for foot knights. However, their army niche is already filled by the Reliquae. Getting more heavy infantry in is a distinctly Counter Bretonnianist practice, which goes against our army's traditions.

9) Keep our Trebuchets, Comrades! This is a medieval army. And the Knights really need something for sieges, and they probably know that the more peasants they throw at the walls, the less taxes they get from their lands...

10) A small thing, but keep magic and virtue point allowances seperate. Just because Duc de Ligne has been renowned across the land as a wise, virtuous gentleman does not mean that he cannot go into some dark crypt and "liberate" some glowing sword from an evil monster. Of course, this will probably leave some fairly brutal combos open for everyone.

Hopefully, Comrades, these changes will keep Bretonnia feeling Bretonnian, not an Empire client kingdom, whilst allowing the Bretonnians to fight that little bit better. (Of course, I'm not an expert.)

soots
15-12-2009, 23:30
Well said Awilla.

Now, I agree in regards to Bretonian Bowmen having to be crapper than those pansy elves. But I was just thinking of Imperial guard and how they get a special pre-liminary ordinance attack. What if Bretonian bowmen can set up hotspots that they may set alight (or attempt to set aligh). Maybe they can put down a template before the game somewhere in the middle of the field and both players can see the template, and then the bretonians can attempt to alight this small template with bowfire during the game instead of firing at enemies. Gives the bretonians the possibility of diverting enemies.

Interesting how you pointed out some questing knights are similar to dwarven slayers as in they want to achieve a monumental feat without too much self preservation.

Good point about the men at arms too. Theyre a lot worse than clanrats, and they serve less purpose too, being marginally better than goblins. I can see them at 4 pts.

Thurizdan
16-12-2009, 01:38
7) George R R Martin references in the fluff. I'm pretty sure he takes a few from warhammer (Tyrion the heroic warrior prince as an ugly, scheming dwarf is a particularly ironic one, I reckon, as is a baldheaded, red robe wearing warrior priest in one of the tournaments.) It is time, comrades, to return the favour.


Well one is based on the War of the Roses and one is based on the Hundred Years War so they're definitely going to be similar. But I too would definitely like to see this, I'd take it more seriously than a special character based on Friar Tuck.

ChaosVC
16-12-2009, 01:47
I wish they have the killer rabbits monthy python style.

Lord Anathir
16-12-2009, 01:59
do you guys realise that high elf archers are point for point the worst archers in the game?

soots
16-12-2009, 02:09
They strike first though!

So even if a 1000pt chaos lord on a chaos dragon with full armor and magic weapon charge the HE archers, they attack first.

Thats right! Attack before a charging 1000pt model, and each of them have a 50% chance of hitting!

...of course, the result will be no different ;)

ChaosVC
16-12-2009, 02:26
They strike first though!

So even if a 1000pt chaos lord on a chaos dragon with full armor and magic weapon charge the HE archers, they attack first.

Thats right! Attack before a charging 1000pt model, and each of them have a 50% chance of hitting!

...of course, the result will be no different ;)

Wow! I am going home and give my high elves archers a BIG BIG HUG!

Smacksaw5000
16-12-2009, 03:13
Bowmen

When I think of BRet bowmen, I think of braveheart esq archers all ranked up blindly firing mass arrows in the direction of the enemy.

I would like to see bowmen not have to nominate a target but rather name an area, all bowmen in the unit fire regardless of what rank they are in, place the 5" template and roll to hit.

Something like that which implies all the archers in the unit are just firing in the direction of the enemy forces and may hit multiple things.

I_ated_Warpstone
16-12-2009, 03:19
4) Grail Knights that can happily wallop every other sort of heavy cavalry in the game one to one (more so in lance formation), but at a hefty cost. It's pathetic to see mere Vampire Blood Knights and Chaos Knights smashing these fine sons of Bretonnia into the ground!

This is the only thing I have issue with in your list ideas. I don't think Grail Knights are bad now. Cavalry fighting cavalry, at least in WHFB, usually comes down to the charge. Grail Knights can pretty handily beat Chaos Knights or Blood Knights if they charge, but may lose when being charged. I really think Grail Knights are a useful and effective unit currently, don't see much that needs to be done to change them.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
16-12-2009, 03:25
Facing Bretonians regularly here are main issues with them as an army:

Primarily, there needs to be a greater variety of army builds and their magic needs to be be improved. I think greater emphasis should be put on their devotion to the Lady of the Lake. The rule allowing them to pray at the start of the battle is effective and in character with the army and I see no reason why the idea shouldn't be taken further. It could perhaps be used as inspiration for a Bretonnian magic lore.

I also agree that foot knights should be included however, my visualization of them as a unit is somewhat different to ideas mentioned so far. I think foot knights should be modeled as the guardians of the sacred lakes throughout Bretonnia with something like the following rules:

Unit Type: Infantry, Rare

Unit Size: 3 - 10

Guardian of the Lake

M4 WS5 BS3 S4 T3 W1 I4 A2 Ld10

Lady's Champion

M4 WS6 BS3 S4 T3 W1 I4 A3 Ld10

One model in the unit can be upgraded to a Lady's Champion and one model in the unit may be upgraded to a Banner Bearer. They are allowed up to 25 points of magic items or vows and a magic banner worth up to 50 points respectively.

Equipment: Heavy Armour, Shield, Sacred Blade,

Sacred Blade: The blade gives the user magical attacks at +1 strength. For all other intents and purposes the blade counts as a hand weapon.

Special Rules: Unbreakable, cause Fear, Ethereal, Sacred Guardians, Sacred Task

Sacred Guardians: Damsels and Prophetess' are the only characters that can join this unit.

Sacred Task: for every point the unit loses combat by it suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed.

Lusall
16-12-2009, 03:59
Facing Bretonians regularly here are main issues with them as an army:

Primarily, there needs to be a greater variety of army builds and their magic needs to be be improved. I think greater emphasis should be put on their devotion to the Lady of the Lake. The rule allowing them to pray at the start of the battle is effective and in character with the army and I see no reason why the idea shouldn't be taken further. It could perhaps be used as inspiration for a Bretonnian magic lore.

I also agree that foot knights should be included however, my visualization of them as a unit is somewhat different to ideas mentioned so far. I think foot knights should be modeled as the guardians of the sacred lakes throughout Bretonnia with something like the following rules:

Unit Type: Infantry, Rare

Unit Size: 3 - 10

Guardian of the Lake

M4 WS5 BS3 S4 T3 W1 I4 A2 Ld10

Lady's Champion

M4 WS6 BS3 S4 T3 W1 I4 A3 Ld10

One model in the unit can be upgraded to a Lady's Champion and one model in the unit may be upgraded to a Banner Bearer. They are allowed up to 25 points of magic items or vows and a magic banner worth up to 50 points respectively.

Equipment: Heavy Armour, Shield, Sacred Blade,

Sacred Blade: The blade gives the user magical attacks at +1 strength. For all other intents and purposes the blade counts as a hand weapon.

Special Rules: Unbreakable, cause Fear, Ethereal, Sacred Guardians, Sacred Task

Sacred Guardians: Damsels and Prophetess' are the only characters that can join this unit.

Sacred Task: for every point the unit loses combat by it suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed.

I actually kinda like that idea, but I think the last part about taking wounds when losing combat just moves in on the Vamp Counts/Tomb Kings thing.

kdh88
16-12-2009, 05:37
Things that I'm sure we'll see
1) Improved/new items
2) Improved/new special characters
3) Removal of 0-1 restrictions


Things I'd like to see:
1)Foot Knights with KotR stats as a Special Choice (upgrade to questing knights/GW option?). Not only are some knights going to be unable to afford/find a horse (due to being poor, on campaign or in an area like Montfort that doesn't have much cavalry), but the terrain simple won't allow them to be use in some cases, mostly mountains and sieges. Even a Brettonian would rather fight on foot than not fight at all. From an army construction standpoint it would give Brets more options and something that can fight in a protracted combat.

2)Characters that can be fielded on foot without using up their Virtue, for the same reasons as foot knights.

3)Wardens: Scouting skirmishers with longbows, WS3, BS4?, special choice. Might need to remove the ability of regular bowmen to make them different enough to be useful. Would represent those charged with preventing poaching or bands of Hermimaults that show up to fight a more important enemy.

4)WS3 M@A. The current ones are common goblins (overpriced and rarely taken) forced to purchase weapon options (overpriced and never taken).

5) Change to battle pilgrim fluff. We're supposed to believe that the nobles will hang a peasent for looking at a pegasus but are just fine with them killing Grail Knights even accidentally? Seriously?

6) Either a buff or points drop for questing knights. Either one is fine by me.

7) No new spell lore. The number of army specific lores is ridiculous. What's the point of having the 8 basic lores if only the Empire and Lizardmen actually use them? Give Damsels the ability to see out of lance formation and maybe access to the lore of light, but no more.

Edit:

I actually kinda like that idea, but I think the last part about taking wounds when losing combat just moves in on the Vamp Counts/Tomb Kings thing.

It would be necessary; armies without magic attacks need some way to deal with them.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
16-12-2009, 12:36
I actually kinda like that idea, but I think the last part about taking wounds when losing combat just moves in on the Vamp Counts/Tomb Kings thing.

Agreed though I was stuck for inspiration so decided to use it since it is quite a solid rule. I think the following would work better perhaps:

Unit Type: Infantry, Rare

Unit Size: 3 - 10

Guardian of the Lake

M4 WS5 BS3 S4 T3 W1 I4 A2 Ld10

Lady's Champion

M4 WS6 BS3 S4 T3 W1 I4 A3 Ld10

One model in the unit can be upgraded to a Lady's Champion and one model in the unit may be upgraded to a Banner Bearer. They are allowed up to 25 points of magic items or vows and a magic banner worth up to 50 points respectively.

Equipment: Heavy Armour, Shield, Sacred Blade,

Sacred Blade: The blade gives the user magical attacks at +1 strength. For all other intents and purposes the blade counts as a hand weapon.

Special Rules: Unbreakable, cause Fear, Ethereal, Sacred Guardians, Sacred Task

Sacred Guardians: Damsels and Prophetess' are the only characters that can join this unit.

Sacred Task: if the unit loses a combat it must take a leadership test as describe in the combat section of the Warhammer rules. If this test is failed the unit is no longer Ethereal.

Canadian_Khan
16-12-2009, 17:38
Indeed, The Idea sounds nice on that one.

It's either that, or a big special heavy infantry armed with one handed flails... +1 strenght, armor piercing, still beeing able to use a shield.

Or both, I'd definitely take both.... hehe

Logan_uc
16-12-2009, 17:51
1 a little pump in the magic items
2 cost reductions
3 fix QK.
4 some special rule to "break" unbreakables, its good for the game and berts are the ones that suffer more againt undead and deamons and that should not be.

ps dont tuch the models

Malorian
16-12-2009, 18:12
4 some special rule to "break" unbreakables, its good for the game and berts are the ones that suffer more againt undead and deamons and that should not be.

As cool as that would be I can't see that happening ;)

Awilla the Hun
16-12-2009, 20:09
I really don't think that Men at Arms should have Weapons Skill 3.

Firstly, it reeks of Bourgeoise Militarist-Elitism, and that won't do at all. Proper training? That is unneccessary in a Revolutionary army, Comrade!

Secondly, it makes the Men at Arms into a force that could potentially be better than Empire Halberdiers (with shields) of a greater points cost. Bretonnians do not do elite, or even average, infantry. The Man at Arms is a peasant thrown a slightly improved (if at all) scythe, given a shield, given a few hours poking at a sack, and is ordered to march at those Orcs with his head held high (or, at least, moderately high, due to his crooked back), and to take as many with him as possible. Or, more likely, to stand outside a prison and look moderately imposing, crossing halberds across the door whenever someone suspicious looking marches up, and then getting killed as the hero swashbuckles his way out.

In contrast, a (say) Empire Spearman is a professional, well drilled soldier who has spent years, possibly in blunted steel exercises, who knows damn well what to do when the balloon goes up and Archaon is at the border. A Clanrat has grown up in the most vicious environment imaginable, and is the veteran of countless brawls, attempted assassinations, and clan wars. There is an enormous difference. Fluffwise, there is no reason why they should fight in roughly the same way.

Thirdly, it is debatable whether that would actually improve him very much. The Man at Arms would be made more expensive. It would be made very slightly harder to kill. However, in this age when ranked infantry are, in effect, cannon fodder, it is unlikely that Men at Arms will do that much more damage with a slightly higher weapons skill. Making our cannon fodder more expensive (or the same price in the new book) is counterproductive to those who want an effective infantry horde as their army.

And Logan_Uc: a magic banner that adds a d6 to the ld test of an enemy unit once per game and force them to pick the highest (so as to make that vital enemy unit run away/disintegrate that bit more quickly...) could work.

Malorian
16-12-2009, 22:39
Thirdly, it is debatable whether that would actually improve him very much. The Man at Arms would be made more expensive. It would be made very slightly harder to kill. However, in this age when ranked infantry are, in effect, cannon fodder, it is unlikely that Men at Arms will do that much more damage with a slightly higher weapons skill. Making our cannon fodder more expensive (or the same price in the new book) is counterproductive to those who want an effective infantry horde as their army.

Couldn't agree with this more.

soots
16-12-2009, 23:14
4 some special rule to "break" unbreakables, its good for the game and berts are the ones that suffer more againt undead and deamons and that should not be.



Bretonians used to have a rule to help with unbreakables.

The lance could penetrate units. You could elect to engage units or just run right through them. (You do a round of combat, then move the unit behind the unit it charged without having to get stuck in there with them).

Would be a bit unfair these days though (much like terradon rock drops).

exsulis
16-12-2009, 23:21
4 some special rule to "break" unbreakables, its good for the game and berts are the ones that suffer more againt undead and deamons and that should not be.

ps dont tuch the models

Well, maybe not break them but cause additional wounds(double combat rez), or removing models from play would work against those two armiesz(or disrupts raising the undead unit).

Although I would like some of the older anti undead stuff returned to the Bretonnian Army. There are a number of ways that GW could institute fixes across the board(not just Bretonnia) that would even out the playing field against Daemons, and Undead.

For the love of all that is holy GW redo the Mounted Yeomen!!! After that yeah, I can't say I'd want anything redone.

I'm for keeping the simplified 3 rank lance rule unless people want Bretonnia to have ranks of 1, and 2.

Skirmishing Bowmen need to be their own entry, and I'd rather it be a special with some kind of game hunter rule.

The virtues need some tuning, and they should have a different allocation than the magic items pool.

I do concur that we should have a rare slot knights on foot from the PoV that some knights will run out of horses.

Pegasus knights really need to stay as they are. They've been nerfed enough with the last edition. They are far more common than Grail knights, or the lord that wants to sully his army with a trebuchet.

Grail knights while they are kinda hurting with newer books shouldn't go out of control killy wise but I do think they need a little push. Like maybe passing through forestes, or water as if it were open ground. Also the great annoying my lone hero challenges your unit of Grail knights so I win combat needs to be addressed.

The lance formation does need some work with the current lores of magic, and the lack of the lore of light is odd considering all the undead hate.

Maybe a peasant hero that would allow a unit of M@A to keep up with knights. Personally, that's half the reason they don't get a whole lot of use is the fact that they can't back the knightly units up. :(

Alathir
17-12-2009, 04:59
I really don't think that Men at Arms should have Weapons Skill 3.

Firstly, it reeks of Bourgeoise Militarist-Elitism, and that won't do at all. Proper training? That is unneccessary in a Revolutionary army, Comrade!

Secondly, it makes the Men at Arms into a force that could potentially be better than Empire Halberdiers (with shields) of a greater points cost. Bretonnians do not do elite, or even average, infantry. The Man at Arms is a peasant thrown a slightly improved (if at all) scythe, given a shield, given a few hours poking at a sack, and is ordered to march at those Orcs with his head held high (or, at least, moderately high, due to his crooked back), and to take as many with him as possible. Or, more likely, to stand outside a prison and look moderately imposing, crossing halberds across the door whenever someone suspicious looking marches up, and then getting killed as the hero swashbuckles his way out.

In contrast, a (say) Empire Spearman is a professional, well drilled soldier who has spent years, possibly in blunted steel exercises, who knows damn well what to do when the balloon goes up and Archaon is at the border. A Clanrat has grown up in the most vicious environment imaginable, and is the veteran of countless brawls, attempted assassinations, and clan wars. There is an enormous difference. Fluffwise, there is no reason why they should fight in roughly the same way.

Thirdly, it is debatable whether that would actually improve him very much. The Man at Arms would be made more expensive. It would be made very slightly harder to kill. However, in this age when ranked infantry are, in effect, cannon fodder, it is unlikely that Men at Arms will do that much more damage with a slightly higher weapons skill. Making our cannon fodder more expensive (or the same price in the new book) is counterproductive to those who want an effective infantry horde as their army.

And Logan_Uc: a magic banner that adds a d6 to the ld test of an enemy unit once per game and force them to pick the highest (so as to make that vital enemy unit run away/disintegrate that bit more quickly...) could work.

I used to disagree with you on the Men-at-Arms but after reading 'Knight Errant' and 'Knight of the Realm' I really want MaA to stay at Weapon Skill 2! Besides, the poor bastards at least hit zombies on 3's these days. :D

That is a nice idea for a magic banner by the way, could really help against Stubborn troops as well. Speaking of which, Bretonnia could use some help in that area, perhaps Grail Knights causing fear? (But that would go against my wish to see them become characters...) But some kind of way of at least putting a bit of fear into Unbreakable troops would be nice.

I'm sure its been said before, but Bretonnia really deserves Knights on Foot, the background even tells us that (non-idiotic) Bretonnians know it wont always be tactically better to fight from atop a horse. I think they should be a special unit and for each Knightly character you choose to field on foot (which would be do-able in a new book, I'd hope) then you can take a unit of Knights on Foot as core.

McBaine
17-12-2009, 12:22
Hmm, so this is for wishlisting ?

Many of the things I want are already adressed (lore of light, a way to cast spells when in a knight unit etc)

There is something that was not adressed. I would like to see Pegasi mounts for heroes not as montrous monts, but as cavalry. Like the Vampire counts have. Chaos also has cavalry mounts on 50mm bases.
I dont think it would hurt.

I expect the following changes from the new book (whenever it will be released) :
Virtues are not coming from the Magic item allowance (but you can take just one).
All Peasants getting one point cheaper.
No 0-1 restriction any more.
Because of the above PK in the rare slot (would make sense, because then you have to choose between grail knights,trebuchet and PK. RAF with 2 units Grail Knights would be a little... nasty)
BSB can take whatever he wants as equipment (as all other of the new books BSBs)

I cant see etheral unbreakable anything happen, and large Monsters are also a no go. I could see a unit of Knights on foot tho. For the sake of a different gaming style some heavy infantry wouldnt be so bad. Lets say Questing knights on foot (Their horses would be dead because of the long travel and the dangers of the Quest). So, unmounted QK with greatweapons and/or Morningstars and shields. No further rules are necessary in my opinion.
Also, an own entry for skirmishing Bowmen with an Option to upgrade them to scouts would be nice.
Horses with S4 are not unheard of. Would add up to the fluff and give them a boost - but I dont think it is necessary.
I wouldnt touch the lance formation, its fine as it is.

Necromancer2
17-12-2009, 14:43
- a form of Heavy Infantry instead of Knights on foot.
- No big monster, just monster killing vitues/weapons
- Boost the Green Knight! ;)
- Questing Knights possibly ASF on charge.
- Bowmen have armor peircing option.

Awilla the Hun
17-12-2009, 15:48
Finally, I would like plastic Mounted Yeomen. My metal ones keep losing shields and spear arms!

Chaos Wombat
17-12-2009, 16:37
I would like to see bowman have an option to fire a ''volley'' using 2 ranks & using the small template (kind of like the stone thrower rules),also,if charging with knights in the lance formation & there are 9 or more models in the lance,allow it to cause Fear.

jayzerus
17-12-2009, 18:36
Here is my wishlist for a new edition Bretonnian book. Keep in mind this is a wishlist, so much like your Christmas wishlist, chances are you will only get a small portion of what is on your list (I've been asking for a Porsche since I was 8 - still haven't gotten one).

Knights of the Realm & Errant
1. If either of the core knights overrun into a second enemy unit, allow that battle to be fought on the same turn regardless, ignoring the normal requirements for overrun
2. Only get lance formation rank bonus on turn they charge, but get free reform for 2nd round of combat.

Questing Knights
1. Allow them to use their Initiative with the great weapon
2. 2 wounds to show their determination to reach the grail
3. Plastic kits allowing swords, hammers, axes, flails and morning stars

Grail Knights
1. Should cause fear, on charge at very least
2. T4, W2 to show they are as tough as the fluff says
3. Increase cost to 42 or 43 pts
4. Plastic!

Pegasus Knights
1. -1 to hit when shooting they are flying after all

Men at arms
1. reduce to 4 pts or WS3
2. Give them heavy armor option which does not allow them to take a pole weapon

Damsels
1. Access to Lore of light
2. Allow to cast when in the lance formation
3. Plastic!

Bowmen
1. Bring back Bowmen of Bergerac allows skirmish + scout
a. Must pay 30(ish) points for the three characters
b. Additional 1 pt. for each bowmen in the unit
2. Must have equal numbers of skirmishing and non skirmish bowmen

Horses
1. D2 impact hits on charge for front rank horses only if more than 1 rank
2. No strength 4

Paladins / Lords
1. Virtues do not count towards magic items list
2. Horses should not cost 14 points, since they are common for Bretonnian nobles

Grail Pilgrims
1. Cannot be fielded if Grail Knights are fielded
2. Reliaque lower point value
3. Plastic!

Mounted Yeoman
1. Plastic!

Malorian
17-12-2009, 18:54
The 2 wound thing would be going too far and would open the door for everything else to start gaining wounds as well.

Toughness 4 for a grail knight is one thing but 2 wounds is entering the realm of flesh hounds, and we all know how that went over ;)

jayzerus
17-12-2009, 20:29
Yeah, that probably should be T4 or W2. They are just too nancy-like as is.

Zarroc
17-12-2009, 21:28
Bret knights should get full plate armour, lol, 1 plus saves, yes please

Cambion Daystar
17-12-2009, 21:54
Bret knights should get full plate armour, lol, 1 plus saves, yes please

No, they really shouldn't. Brettonia is not that advanced.

Awilla the Hun
17-12-2009, 21:57
Men at Arms getting heavy armour would be admittedly useful in game terms, but:

A) It would mean that no one would ever use the polearm. As I said, infantry are there to stand and die. They do very little damage. As it is, the halberd is occasionally handy. Giving them a better option would eliminate its use altogether.

B) In fluff terms, they have no reason to be armed thus. We should take the standard of Empire infantry as general human infantry. Giving them better armour than their Eastern cousins would be far, far too much.

Malorian
17-12-2009, 23:02
No, they really shouldn't. Brettonia is not that advanced.

And more importantly the current models don't even look like they have full plate!


Now black orcs on the other hand... ;)

AussieSocks
18-12-2009, 04:32
Crossbows) The French got their Xbowmen from Milanese mercenaries in the 100 years war. However fluff-wise i'd prefer the "Hate all mercenaries" style than the "English outshoot us - help" style the french employed.

Lore of Light) I'd take Damsels then, every spell is useful, knights wouldn't need any WS boost or anti-undead rules, just take Lore of Light! (Also help against unbreakable evils, we don't want to roll over dwarven blocks, but something to take the edge of undead and daemons would help)

Upgrading Bowmen) Nononono, these already have stakes, if they have more special rules than the knights you'll definately be going the wrong way, leave them as is. Stakes better stay, cheap and nasty better stay.

Knights of Foot) Pffft.... this could only work in a Slayer-style "Quest" Silly idea if you ask me because it brings alot of Bretonnian society fluff into question. Keep as is... something particularly compationate players can take that doesn't taint the arrogant fluff i so dearly love!

Monstrous Creatures) NO!

KOTR Stats) If these go up, power creep shall only endure, keep as is, maybe a leadership bonus, no full plate (Rediculous Imho)

Monstrous Mounts) YES! Bretonnia is the king of the Mounted Domain, let their Characters prove it by riding a variety of proud and noble steeds. Pegasus, Hippogyph, Gryphon, Hippocampus (Crossing Water Features un-impeded, maybe new knight unit?) Let Us Rival the Dark Elf!

Feathered Drake or Dragon would need alot of Fluff-work.

To Me it seems that Bretonnia needs the option of being "Fantasy-like", "Historical-like" or a mixture, with Pegasus Knights and Hippogryphs being the only really strong Fantasy models on the board i think a Hippocampus unit (Ranked up Pegasus knights that can only "Fly" over water terrain sounds appropriate :D) and a Large Target Lion are in order.

Lion/Hippogyph/Gyphon Plastic.... Oh... My... God.... the... money.... we'd.... spend....

Interchangable feet/tail/ head (Wings or none wings could probably be done by the way of saddle design) probably do it in under 40 pieces. I'm willing to settle for Extortionate prices if you guys are :D

Cambion Daystar
18-12-2009, 10:10
I'd give questing knights access to a 1-handed weapon that gives +1 strength. That would place them between grail knights and knights of the realm.

Sandlemad
18-12-2009, 10:44
Knights of Foot) Pffft.... this could only work in a Slayer-style "Quest" Silly idea if you ask me because it brings alot of Bretonnian society fluff into question. Keep as is... something particularly compationate players can take that doesn't taint the arrogant fluff i so dearly love!

I don't know about that. Perhaps with KOTR it is a bit off but I really like the idea of an infantry unit of Questing Knights. Their quest takes them all over an there have to be situations where horses wouldn't be desirable.
Furthermore, it neatly sidesteps the penitent trope, which appears all over the place in WH and 40K. Instead you could have these guys as the most dedicated of the Questing Knights, not just laying aside their lance but their steed too.

Humble and pious and more than a bit influenced by that brilliant piece of art in the army book where the dishevelled and dismounted knight meets the lady.:)

Jammybee
18-12-2009, 10:58
I really don't think that Men at Arms should have Weapons Skill 3.

Firstly, it reeks of Bourgeoise Militarist-Elitism, and that won't do at all. Proper training? That is unneccessary in a Revolutionary army, Comrade!

Secondly, it makes the Men at Arms into a force that could potentially be better than Empire Halberdiers (with shields) of a greater points cost. Bretonnians do not do elite, or even average, infantry. The Man at Arms is a peasant thrown a slightly improved (if at all) scythe, given a shield, given a few hours poking at a sack, and is ordered to march at those Orcs with his head held high (or, at least, moderately high, due to his crooked back), and to take as many with him as possible. Or, more likely, to stand outside a prison and look moderately imposing, crossing halberds across the door whenever someone suspicious looking marches up, and then getting killed as the hero swashbuckles his way out.

In contrast, a (say) Empire Spearman is a professional, well drilled soldier who has spent years, possibly in blunted steel exercises, who knows damn well what to do when the balloon goes up and Archaon is at the border. A Clanrat has grown up in the most vicious environment imaginable, and is the veteran of countless brawls, attempted assassinations, and clan wars. There is an enormous difference. Fluffwise, there is no reason why they should fight in roughly the same way.

Thirdly, it is debatable whether that would actually improve him very much. The Man at Arms would be made more expensive. It would be made very slightly harder to kill. However, in this age when ranked infantry are, in effect, cannon fodder, it is unlikely that Men at Arms will do that much more damage with a slightly higher weapons skill. Making our cannon fodder more expensive (or the same price in the new book) is counterproductive to those who want an effective infantry horde as their army.
.

I agree it wouldn't help much. But here is the reasons why i wouldn't be against it.

Bretonians dont do good infantry: Correct but an empire spearmen is now on the bottom rung of infantry power. Having no detachment rule would still make them worse.

Training : The monty-pythonesque fluff is a bit ott. A knight needs to protect his land, so out of necessity he would surely give them some training. WS3 is hardly elite, it would make him as skilled at fighting as say a horse. The orc/skaven comparison doesnt take into account the orcs physical strength (T4, choppa) or skavens agility (I4, M5).


Besides you might be glad of some mediocre infantry if cavalry get a nerf in a future edition.

Malorian
18-12-2009, 14:00
Monstrous Mounts) YES! Bretonnia is the king of the Mounted Domain, let their Characters prove it by riding a variety of proud and noble steeds. Pegasus, Hippogyph, Gryphon, Hippocampus (Crossing Water Features un-impeded, maybe new knight unit?) Let Us Rival the Dark Elf!

Feathered Drake or Dragon would need alot of Fluff-work.

To Me it seems that Bretonnia needs the option of being "Fantasy-like", "Historical-like" or a mixture, with Pegasus Knights and Hippogryphs being the only really strong Fantasy models on the board i think a Hippocampus unit (Ranked up Pegasus knights that can only "Fly" over water terrain sounds appropriate :D) and a Large Target Lion are in order.

Lion/Hippogyph/Gyphon Plastic.... Oh... My... God.... the... money.... we'd.... spend....

Interchangable feet/tail/ head (Wings or none wings could probably be done by the way of saddle design) probably do it in under 40 pieces. I'm willing to settle for Extortionate prices if you guys are :D

Although I agree the kit would be amazing in general Bretonnians prove themselves by killing these monsters, not riding them ;)

Charistoph
18-12-2009, 15:14
Green Knight type unit as the Bretonnian "Monster", obviously weaker than the Green Knight, but not much.

Questing models gain Killing Blow vs everything when using Great Weapons.

savage_orc
18-12-2009, 16:27
I would like to see questing knights on foot nuff said (dunno if someone has wished this already)

Malorian
18-12-2009, 16:29
Questing models gain Killing Blow vs everything when using Great Weapons.

Actually how about this: questing knights get killing blow vs large targets.

Helps Brets with their monster fighting problems and makes the questing knights more interesting while not making them too crazy.

jayzerus
18-12-2009, 18:22
Actually how about this: questing knights get killing blow vs large targets.


That would make them relevant again.

Another possibility - make them immune to fear/terror when caused by a large target - i.e. giants, hydras, dragons, etc... They would follow normal rules vs. non-large targets (like pheonix guard, etc..)

Malorian
18-12-2009, 18:55
Sounds cool to me, and would make each game a quest to kill the big nasty thing :D

soots
18-12-2009, 21:45
Questing knight gets special rules vs large monsters?

Heh Hatred, fearless, KB vs large monsters.

Like I said before, questing sounding more like dwarven slayer :p

SiNNiX
18-12-2009, 22:29
Ideas:

Bretonnian cavalry (excluding Yeoman) should cause Fear on the charge.

Lance formation is awesome but often causes movement issues and confusion. I think let them charge in regular formation but the second rank may attack as well if armed with lances or something. Explanation of the rule could read something like "Bretonnian knights have worked centuries on their methods of charging their enemies on horseback and have molded the act into an art. These skilled riders are experts at weaving in and out of their surrounding ranks during an assault and are easily capable of moving their warhorses into position to allow a greater number of knights opportunities to attack and crush their foes. On any turn that a unit mounted on warhorses successfully charges an enemy, all models in the charging unit may have the models directly behind them attack as if they were in base contact as well.

Grail Knights are supposed to be the best cavalry in the game. Boost them up and make them the best again!

McBaine
19-12-2009, 09:34
Lance formation is awesome but often causes movement issues and confusion.
Maybe back then, when it was in triangle shape. Now the things are pretty clear.

I think let them charge in regular formation but the second rank may attack as well if armed with lances or something
So you would get rid of a unique look and make Questing knights even worse ?
I like the lance formation as it is. So we have huge flanks ? Then protect them. Warhammer is a game that involves tactic. We get some pretty good bonuses out of the lance formation too.

@ 2 Wo for Quest/Grailknights :
I understand that this is wishlisting, but come on. 2 W on regular human troops (with regular I mean non character) ? It just wont happen. I could see T4 on Grailknights, but the wounds are over the top.
I'd like to see 75 points allowance for a Grail Knights standard bearer (and therefore at least one decent banner in that range).
More banners at all would be good. A banner that protects against missiles at all, not only strong Missiles. Bring back the Standard of shielding or the banner of righteous retribution (maybe it should not reflect the missiles, but give every shooting model a S3 hit or something).
Just a thought.

Whats up with the Questing Knights and all the fancy rules ? While they may be stylish on the Quest, they should be for Questing Knight characters only. Therefore we have virtues, normal troops shouldnt have so many things. Make them a special rule for their great weapons or give them other weapon choices, or just make them cheaper by a few points. But as a bretonnian player myself I say : keep them real. Bretonnians are an army that has to be "normal". There is no point to make the models themselves uber. Thats the thing of Chaos demons or mortals.
Characters, virtues,banners and magic items can be used to make them decent against other strong armies, but the troops should remain in their human limits.

Just my two cents.

EDIT : I forgot !
Make the sword of heroes better. let it cost it 45, 50 or whatever points it would cost, but please let it at least give +2S against monters... with S5 we have to roll 5+ to wound. That's not so good for a sword that is supposed to be awesome at slaying the nasty monstrous creatures out there.

SiNNiX
19-12-2009, 16:54
I agree with the previous poster: Grail Knights can have 75 points worth of a magic banner and champion can have 50 points of magic items or maybe just 50 points of magic weapons.

Von Wibble
20-12-2009, 16:08
1) Space Wolves have Sagas which incorporate a mini objective for the player. Why not apply the same to virtues? eg a character with virtue of audacity must kill an enemy character in a challenge. If you fail to achieve all characters virtues the gaem can't be better than a minor victory to bretonnia, but the virtues are available in addition to magic items and cost no points.

2) I like the kb vs large targets/monsters for questing knights. Great idea.

3) RAF is a problem. Making pegasus knights rare, with 1 wound, and giving them a 90 degree charge arc helps (if they don't have that already) - you can even lower their cost for that. And don't allow pegasus mounted characters to join the unit - that's just asking for death stars and makes tehm a no brainer choice.

4) More peasants! Woodsmen spring to mind - the skirmishing archers. Currently Brets outshoot high elves thanks to just taking a unit of archers on a hill, 2 trebuchets and a block of 50 skirmishing archers. Adding the woodsman option means you can restrict unit size to stop this dispicable practice.

5) The Prayer - what exactly was wrong with the 5th ed version? Currently it just punishes players who take weaponry that busts armour - which they kinda need. Making it more effective but only against missile fire seems far more sensible. I would make it a 3+ ward against shooting and magic missiles but no effect in honourable combat.

6) More magic for damsels as brets just don't bother in that phase at the moment. Heavens and light seem reasonable lores to give access to. No Bret only lore (if slann don't get one why should they?)

7) Grail knights unit removed from the list. Come on - are you seriously suggesting that 1/4 of the knights in your army bested the green knight in combat and found the prized holy grail? It can't be that difficult then! Make them a unit champion upgrade for knights of the realm and errant knights instead (quite pricy since the psychology boost is very potent)

8) Hermit knight as a rare choice - guards a piece of terrain and is unbreakable with good amoun of W

9) Trebuchet with option to throw cows! Hits at -1S but any casualties cause a panic check at -2ld. Run away, run away!

Awilla the Hun
20-12-2009, 18:11
-You want "more peasants" by reducing their firepower? That makes no sense!
-Our prayer makes a lot of sense now. The Lady would surely want to provide defence against monsters and evil beasties, guiding her knights to glory through her divine power against these vile creatures (or something.) It does restrict cannons, yes; but you forget handguns. These are still very effective weapons against Bretonnians.
-Bretonnians are a heavy cavalry army (although the Red Guards disagree on that front.) They are not meant to have good magic.

McBaine
20-12-2009, 19:13
RAF is a problem. Making pegasus knights rare, with 1 wound, and giving them a 90 degree charge arc helps
Rare and 1 Wo, therefore cheaper... hmm, maybe, but 90 degree ?! How would that even work. They are flying cavalry, therefore skirmishers and have 360 degrees. They have no front and so on, so how would you determine the 90 degree angle. It just wont happen.


The Prayer - what exactly was wrong with the 5th ed version? Currently it just punishes players who take weaponry that busts armour - which they kinda need. Making it more effective but only against missile fire seems far more sensible. I would make it a 3+ ward against shooting and magic missiles but no effect in honourable combat.
They changed it because they found that the bretonnians should have a reason to pray against any enemy. In 5th edition, no bretonnian army would pray for the blessing when facing a non shooting army (e.g. chaos). And they were right, what for ? The lady protects only against shooting. So they changed it. So the Lady's blessing helps against everything, be it missile fire or the close combat weapons of vile fiends that threaten the land of bretonnia. It should stay that way.


Grail knights unit removed from the list. Come on - are you seriously suggesting that 1/4 of the knights in your army bested the green knight in combat and found the prized holy grail? It can't be that difficult then! Make them a unit champion upgrade for knights of the realm and errant knights instead (quite pricy since the psychology boost is very potent)

Finding the grail is a difficult quest, but it is doable. It has nothing to do with beating the Green knight. The Green Knight was even seen helping a questing Knight against overwhelming dangers. The Green Knight is the protector of the sacred places, and while it sometimes happens that he tests the heart and skill of a knight in combat (which not automatically means death if you lose) most questing and grail knights never saw the Green Knight.

Freman Bloodglaive
20-12-2009, 19:28
I would say that a little point tweaking and great weapons giving +2 strength on the charge is all that is really needed.

(yes, I know that makes great weapons better, but you lose the shield save so I'd call it balanced, now there would be an actual choice to be made between great weapon and lance)

Vazalaar
20-12-2009, 20:05
Questing knights (give them a weapon rule like Black Orcs have (shield, handweapon, morningstar, great weapon) and KB against large targets.

Dismounted Questing knights (same rules as above.) Possibilty to have a 3+ save.

Remove grail knights as unit choice or make them better with high point increase.

Move pegasus knights to rare.

Give magic item allowance to kotr-, questing knights champions.

Damsels can chose between heaven, beasts and light lore.

Vows are seperate from magic item allowance.

No new monsters

Grail relique give it warshrine abilities (like dark elves, WoC and skaven have)

2 more hero lvl characters. Hermit knight and peasant hero.

plastic questing knights

plastic grail relique

plastic mounted yeomen

Forgeworld attention to give more diversity to all plastic sets

sugarwookie
20-12-2009, 21:26
I'm only just beginning to read through the army book, but can already think of things I'd like to see changed!

1) Virtues can be purchased separately from magic!!
2) More units based on peasants. I like the woodsmen idea and would like to see the reliquae have a little more customization options
3) In keeping with legends why not drop the knights on foot for something more magical in the fay sense and give them a rare choice along the lines of glade spirits, or Merlin's dragon? I think there are plenty of mythological beasts that are good natured to use.
4) I like the killing blow against large creatures! That would be awesome to give to the GK's
5) Maybe a holy icon similar to the chaos item, praying every turn by the damsel attendants would grant various things.
6) I'd like to see the characters revamped. They seem underpowered and overpriced compared to the Empire.
7) I'd like to see the Lord's stats bumped slightly to make him more fierce.

Just my two cents. Has anyone heard anything at all for when they might start working on the new book?


wOOkie

Chiron
20-12-2009, 21:54
Virtues are almost certain to be seperate items to magic items

I'd like the Ward save to apply only to shooting, not combat

Foot Knight heroes as an option for men leading peasants, possibly as an upgrade to a peasant champion

CherryMan
21-12-2009, 09:40
You know how chaos always seems to have a fun little "random" character, where you get a cool roll on a chart if hes insane or totally barking mad:D
Well, if Chaos can, why not bret? And its the most perfect match for it as well.

How about a typical vagabond, a bragging hero which knows no bounds, roaming from town to town telling tales of dragons slayed and maidens conquered. To make the character a bit unique, you could already get him equipped with magical weapon and Armour (a hero always comes prepared you know:D). And at the start of the battle you get to roll a die to see if he actually is the real deal or just a swindler looking for a free meal and the hearts of every farmers daughter in the village. Could go so far as to rolling a 1, the "hero" has already moved on to the next town, to tell of tales of bravery. It could be like a "battle? what battle?" roll, Ether he not even knowing about the fight, and strolling away, or he knowing, but simply being to much of a coward and running away. Or even simply being a fraud, wielding nothing but regular weaponry and armour. To the roll of a 6, where the hero actually IS a hero, getting a +d3 to all of his already pretty impressive combat attributes, and even better magical stuff that he already has (perhaps a monster of a war horse, able to smash simple infantry aside!).

Anyway, just thought it be a cool concept for a bret army list hehe. They could do with another hero or rare slot.

Von Wibble
21-12-2009, 13:02
-You want "more peasants" by reducing their firepower? That makes no sense!

Reducing their firepower is not the intent. Making the archers less abusable is. Brets should not be able to outshoot elves

-Our prayer makes a lot of sense now. The Lady would surely want to provide defence against monsters and evil beasties, guiding her knights to glory through her divine power against these vile creatures (or something.) It does restrict cannons, yes; but you forget handguns. These are still very effective weapons against Bretonnians.

I think you misunderstand - imo the prayer should offer no protection in combat as the Lady would see that as perfectly fair and honourable. However it should offer good protection vs cowardly shooting and magic. Handguns are besidesthe point - what I find annoynig is that the prayer is currently at its best against those things designed to beat Brets such as great weapons, chariots and knight charges. If the opponent gets the drop on the Brets and uses these things effectively they should be rewarded not punished. But if they try to be the bretonnian army by shooting/zapping all the knights before they see meaningful combat then the lady should step in

-Bretonnians are a heavy cavalry army (although the Red Guards disagree on that front.) They are not meant to have good magic.

And even with those 2 extra lores they wouldn't. But they would at least have an option to actually use damsels rather than the automatic defensive strategy they have going currently. If you want to go witht eh theory that Brets don't hav good magic remove the level 2 and level 4 upgrades from the list. Consider even making damsels and prophetesses provide bonuses to the knights combat abilities rather than spells - reflecting 1) they channel the Lady's power and 2) the knights fight harder to protect them

McBaine - As to making brets pray against any army- simple! Give the prayer protection against spells and magic missiles and every enemy army is covered (except Khorne - but that is pretty much the definition of honourable combat). Then make the prayer mandatory. Job done.

Pegasus knights - the models come on cavalry bases and so have a clear front. The 360 charge arc is the thing that makes them too good otherwise.

And I thought it specifically stated that the gren knight guarded the grail and had to be beaten in combat in the 5th edition book (rather than the vague details in the 6th ed book). Besides which, the idea of having the grail knight as a unit champion upgrade is imo an interesting one. Finally, reading the background very much gives the impression that each grail knight is of at least hero ability and reputation, therefore this should be reflected in their rarity.

Freman Bloodglaive
21-12-2009, 21:27
I forgot to add separating virtues and magic items.

xragg
22-12-2009, 06:46
Why not give Brets their own lore as an option? I am not sure on the balance, but here is my idea of a lore.


All damsels would have:
Divine Fury...4+ The damsel becomes instilled with the spirit of the lake. She gains +2ws, +2attacks, +2str, and may attack from her "protected*" position in a lance formation. *I am not sure of the wording to use, but I think you get what I mean. Remains in play.

**This would potentially allow the caster to be more then a wasted space in a knight unit.

Lore of the Lady
Lady's Courage...3+ Visions of the lady instills morale into the most fleet of heart. Automatically rally a fleeing unit.

Mist of the Lake...5+ The very fog that protects the lady herself is summoned to protect her followers. Target enemy unit within 24" is shrouded in a thick fog causing it much confusion until the caster's next magic phase. The unit may not declare charges for any reason, even from frenzy. If the unit would charge due to any source such as compulsory movement, spells, or other special rules, the unit is instead stops 1 inch away from the charged unit. The unit also moves at half speed, may not shoot, and cannot cast magic missiles.

Consecrate Weapons...6+ The lady blesses the weapons of her followers. All models (not mounts) in a friendly unit within 12" count as having magical and flaming close combat attacks. All subsequent close combat rolls of 1 to hit or wound can be rerolled that turn. May be cast into combat.

Lady's Anger...7+ Magical wisps and fairie fire surround the enemy lashing out at those who would dare harm the followers of the lady. Magic missile, 2d6 S3 hits.

Valorous Resolve...9+ Even the most courageous at heart can use the help of the lady. All models in a friendly unit within 18" gains regeneration until the caster's next magic phase. May be cast into combat.

Crusader Charge...11+ "Legends are filled with epic knightly charges to slay the enemy." Up to 2 friendly cavalry units within 24" move 2d6" towards an enemy unit it can see. Counts as charging if it comes into contact.

Gromdal
22-12-2009, 09:02
All in all i think most ideas here are terrible. Trying to shift focus from the knights to pesants-play empire

more magic-go high elf

more infantry play any number of other armies.

Focus should be on the knights and the heroes.

having one allowance for magic items and one for virtues is however a good idea.

SuperArchMegalon
22-12-2009, 09:14
Adding a little to these aspects of the army isn't all bad. Bretonnian magic, for instance, is almost worthless compared to what just about all other armies get. Brets don't need great R&F or magic, but they could use some minor buffs and additions.

Lantern
22-12-2009, 10:53
Just throwing in my two cents here. The almost constant suggestion of having the Blessing only work against shooting has actually been done in the past. The original prayer cause the opponent to have to roll a 4+ for every model, every turn, to shoot at any knightly units. This basically amounted to a 4+ ward save against shooting. When the following army book was released, they replaced this with the current system (a 6+ ward against EVERYTHING unless it was strength 5+, in which case, the ward went to 5+). Now, condsidering that the Bretonnians lost most of thier shooting protection in order to gain a little close combat protection, I would say this was a fair trade (and I would like to point out, I preferred to orginal system). Also, the reason given for this made sense too, in that, Bretonnian armies only seemd to care about thier religion when facing a shooting army, which just didnt sit right (if they were genuinly religious, they would pray before any battle). The current ward save system takes that into account too, making sure Bretonnians would pray for thier goddess no matter who was thier opponent (and as for not needing against Khorne, well, if I was fighting a Khorne army, youd be damned sure I'd say a prayer or two).

In any case, this sounds like change for the sake of change. I would suggest playing against Bretonnians with an army like Empire or Dwarves or High Elves etc and then ask the Bretonnian player to forgoe the blessing by way of experiment. Im sure you would then see that they blessing is needed in all repects. Unless you want to give up Always Strikes First (and Fight in 3 Ranks), Detachments, Intractable, Fear (undead), and whatever that skaven rule is that adds thier ranks to thier leadership. Every army has rules that make fighting them daunting, and also has ways around it.

On a side note (and maybe weakening my whole point) IF you had to change it, then maybe make it always 5+ against shooting, and then always 6+ in close combat, putting the strength where it should be.

Zaonite
22-12-2009, 17:58
I keep seeing suggestions of Questing Knights on foot.

My question is why? Why take knights on foot?
It doesn't suit the fluff or their playstyle.
You want swordsmen on foot and block infantry AND knights?- Play empire!

Ok - that over with.

Brets only need tweaking.

1) Separate Magic Item and Virtues costs
2) Tweak effects of magic items - lets get rid of all those "one use only" items.
3) Readjust the points cost and/or stats of some of the units to bring them into line with current power levels.
4) Bring back some of the Special Characters!

Night Bearer
22-12-2009, 20:38
My wish list:

-lots of new magic items, esp magic weapons. Brets seem like the type that would have tons of "blessed" and/or relic items, maybe even allow multiples of common items to represent the countless relic/blessed swords that all act like biting blades/swords of might/etc.
-allow individual GK to take magic items, like 25pts each. GKs just seem like the type where they should almost all be individual heroes/characters.
-add "KB against Monstrous Creatures" to all Knightly vows.
-I like the idea of making QK "armed to the teef".
-add special rules for having damsels in knight units, for example something like "Wishing to impress their damsel, Knights Errant become frenzied, KOR become Stubborn, etc." And maybe add "A Knight unit whose damsel is killed gains Hatred against the unit or model that killed her."

R Man
22-12-2009, 21:07
All in all i think most ideas here are terrible. Trying to shift focus from the knights to pesants-play empire

more magic-go high elf

more infantry play any number of other armies.

Focus should be on the knights and the heroes.

having one allowance for magic items and one for virtues is however a good idea.

If that's the case we should take forest spirits out of the wood elf list, after all, they are supposed to be shooty. Or Knights out of the Empire List, as they are supposed to be infantry, or skaven with only horde troops. There is more to an army than a few units. Foot troops do not define Empire, a combination of units and themes do. Same for the Bretonnians, there was more to the middle ages than knights and the list should reflect this. Allowing lists to be one dimensional is boring for players and opponents as well as making the armies at the mercy of lists. Variety is the key to greater flexibility and thus, greater balance.


I keep seeing suggestions of Questing Knights on foot.

My question is why? Why take knights on foot?
It doesn't suit the fluff or their playstyle.
You want swordsmen on foot and block infantry AND knights?- Play empire!

Why? To fight sieges. Its absurd that, to quote another "Bretonnia, the land of castles, lacks the ability to defend said castles". Not only that but it grants a unit that can fight against stubborn units in prolonged combats effectively.

xragg
23-12-2009, 02:07
I keep seeing suggestions of Questing Knights on foot.

My question is why? Why take knights on foot?
It doesn't suit the fluff or their playstyle.
You want swordsmen on foot and block infantry AND knights?- Play empire!



Their fluff mirrors our medieval knights of Western Europe. Read any history and you will find numerous battles with knights and their retinue fighting on foot. To me, infantry empire appears more like conscripted militia (like the national guard), while infantry bret is peasants and possibly knights. Brets would field the worse infantry (peasants) and the best infantry (knights) while the empire has more variety in between the two extremes.

soots
23-12-2009, 02:51
Common guys, lets not restrict them because they based on some type of historical type of army.

Warhammer last i checked was a fantasy world.

Also, just becuase empire are infantry based doesnt mean that Bretonnian arent allowed to be.

Stonewyrm
23-12-2009, 14:06
I would be pretty happy when changes would be made to bring the Army book in line with the newer army books.

Things based on other army books that I expect (and are mostly good):
1.) Seperate Magic items and Virtues (It's seperate in all the newer books)
2.) Elimination of magic items ond Vitues that are no longer useful in 7th (8th) Ed. New magic items and virtues along the lines of Lizardmen, WoC, HE ect. (Hopefully without the powercreep items/combos. Great for Brets, bad for the game. We should have some items that can help us with the current metagame though, itp, fear, heavy magic ect.)
3.) Remove all 0-1 entries (like all new books)
4.) Characters on Royal Pegasus can join a unit of Peg Knights (a la Teradons)
This is the stuff I expect, and will be disapointed if they don't happen. But except for the Peg Knight thing the rest is pretty well a given. Wouldn't even need to make a new book if your not going to change those.

Resonable Wishlist:
1.) To get some balance either boost Grail Knights big time (and cost more) or make them Special (like Chaos Knights or Cold Ones Knights/Riders)

2.) Some way of having a reasonable counter to every type of treat posed.
2a.)I agree with most that we are weak against big monsters and need a way of dealing with those if we choose to. I think two previously discussed ideas were good. A) Add our own big monster. Gryphon, Mid tier Dragon or something new. As a fantasy game I think the fluff supports it, "good" monsters are outnumbered but help "good" Knights to kill the "bad" monsters. B) Units (Quest knights) or Characters having anti-monster tools (KB, ect.)
I prefer A as it would add color and variety to my army, Monster KB should stay as a virtue for those who prefer not to use A. Due to game mechanics (unless fly speed changes in 8th ed) a Knight needs a monster (min Peg) to even catch a Dragon. If Dragons become catchable I am more inclined to except the solo Knight taking on Dragon thing.

2b.) Fear, Terror, Fear outnumber ect. If not fixed by 8th ed. (we can only hope) then we need more tools dealing with these problems as well. Either more of our units are immune to fear, terror and/or panic, or just plain itp.
(but not too many, no powercreep)

2c.) Seiges. If scenarios are coming in 8th we need the tools to do them. That means Foot Knights (yes historically justified). Around the level of other elite infantry (Chaos warriors, Saurus ect.) If no senarios then stick with the fluff and keep it about the mounted knights.

2d.) Stubborn. Either a way to punch through units like in an earlier edition (didn't play that edition myself so I don't know how it worked. Just heard it use to be around). Maybe would need to be limited to when you outnumber an enemy, 2x 6 man Lances go through a 20 block of inf but one 9 man lance doesn't? Or a rule to allow Knights in Lance formation to disengage (retreat) and charge again (2 turns later, 1 to disengage, 1 to charge) Or keep things as it is and make this our one big weakness. I am ok with that as long as this is our only big weakness. We can run circles around them after all, just harder to get a massacre.

3.) Make Hippogryph a non-Large target. Large target + no armor, ward or Regen save = dead. It's not overpowered for it's points (s5 t5), the Lord can't shoot so we don't get an advantage for it being Large. Make it small and it (and Manticors for DE/WoC) becomes an interesting option. If you want make it cause fear instead of terror to balance things out.

Less than reasonable but still not over the top Wishlist:
1.) Maybe marks for units like WoC, for different Knighly Orders (or Baronies or whatever doesn't remind people of Empire). One is immune like Slaanesh (would solve the fear problem above), another gives frenzy (maybe to overpowered), boost to ward save (like tzeech), Stubborn (Knights never flee), KB vs. Big Targets (Questers). If this is too over the top then make it so we only can mark the top tier knights (Quest and Grail). Or at very least give us some decent banners!!

2.) Terrain ignoring Knights, loose formation (no Lance formation but not nesseseraly skirmish)), powerlevel +/- errant knights, maybe even Medium knights (Armor save 3+ not 2+) or a banner that can be used more than once. Peg knights are terrain ignoring but can't get or take rank bonuses. I'd like a second option for terrain heavy games. (A banner can only be taken once but would be useable with Grail knights which might be too much, the one use banner is a bit weak)

I ran out of time and a buddy is here to play a game. Will edit/continue post later. Stonewyrm

LaughinGremlin
23-12-2009, 18:14
Strength 4 horses makes sense because 1. horses are stronger than people, and 2. bret horses are suppose to be highly trained warhorses (ignoring barding is nice but they should still be str4 to show it).

Bretonnian knight charges are suppose to be devestating and so I think having a full lance of knights thundering towards you should cause fear and then it would also make them mroe competitive with deamons and undead.

The +2 on great weapons was changed to not make it the default choice for all characters. Questing knights and those wolf empire knights just got caught in the cross-fire.

RAF isn't a problem.


RAF isn't fluffy, and that may or may not be a problem for some.
The mass of the horse is focused onto the tip of the lance which gets the strength bonus in a charge. The horse is more of a weapon delivery system than it is the warhead.
Regarding your desire to add fear to an alleged "paper tiger" doesn't make fluff sense, because who would fear a paper tiger? If the tiger is given some teeth, then the opponent himself, as well as his minis, will have some more fear of it.

If you're not on the R&D team of GW? How do you know about this crossfire of which you speak? Is it possible, that greatweapons on horseback were too good, relative to the lance (historically unfluffy), and GW intentionally weakened them? Just a musing. :)

In other areas, maybe allow the bowmen to have armor piercing as a stand-and-shoot reaction, as suggested in the Bret novels??? Even at the battle of Agincourt the bowmen's IRON bodkin arrows could not pierce the French STEEL armor (The French lost because they were funneled into a mud puddle before being unhorsed by axemen), and so in the warhammer world, I would prefer to see a reflection of this.

Does anyone else think that the Green Knight is a "beast" and besides the hippogryph mount, is a sufficient "monster" for Bretonnia? I do. However, I am not against removing the Green Knight from the list to be replaced by a special beast slaying adventurer as mentioned in prior statements.

Malorian
23-12-2009, 18:40
If you're not on the R&D team of GW? How do you know about this crossfire of which you speak? Is it possible, that greatweapons on horseback were too good, relative to the lance (historically unfluffy), and GW intentionally weakened them? Just a musing. :)

Nope, not on R&D (although that would be a dream job), just using that big ol' brain that tells me the large amount of characters with great weapons was more of the cause than two unpopular units.

jayzerus
23-12-2009, 18:59
Here is an interesting idea - what if KotR and/or KE had a counter-charge as one of their charge reactions?

This would fit within the "fluff" of the army - with all the jousting and such. Not sure how it would play out rules-wise. It would only be applicable if the enemy was charging the front, only applicable to cavalry, and only if they are over half their total charge range? Something to that effect?

Not really a wish list item, just throwing it out there as food for thought.

Ramius4
23-12-2009, 19:58
2d.) Stubborn. Either a way to punch through units like in an earlier edition (didn't play that edition myself so I don't know how it worked. Just heard it use to be around). Maybe would need to be limited to when you outnumber an enemy, 2x 6 man Lances go through a 20 block of inf but one 9 man lance doesn't? Or a rule to allow Knights in Lance formation to disengage (retreat) and charge again (2 turns later, 1 to disengage, 1 to charge) Or keep things as it is and make this our one big weakness. I am ok with that as long as this is our only big weakness. We can run circles around them after all, just harder to get a massacre.

3.) Make Hippogryph a non-Large target. Large target + no armor, ward or Regen save = dead. It's not overpowered for it's points (s5 t5), the Lord can't shoot so we don't get an advantage for it being Large. Make it small and it (and Manticors for DE/WoC) becomes an interesting option. If you want make it cause fear instead of terror to balance things out.

2.) Bretonnians never had such a thing. The previous poster who mentioned it was wrong.

3.) Hippogryphs DO have a ward save if the character has the blessing. Read up on the blessing, it applies to any monstrous mount you have as well.

Malorian
23-12-2009, 20:01
Here is an interesting idea - what if KotR and/or KE had a counter-charge as one of their charge reactions?

This would fit within the "fluff" of the army - with all the jousting and such. Not sure how it would play out rules-wise. It would only be applicable if the enemy was charging the front, only applicable to cavalry, and only if they are over half their total charge range? Something to that effect?

Not really a wish list item, just throwing it out there as food for thought.

Well you could make it work by saying it would give them the charge as well, but I don't like it because it makes getting the charge less important.

Ramius4
23-12-2009, 20:50
Well you could make it work by saying it would give them the charge as well, but I don't like it because it makes getting the charge less important.

It was one of the Virtues in 5th edition. You essentially moved the knights a couple inches towards the enemy before the enemy unit did its charge move. Then both units counted as charging that turn so you got your lance attacks.

It's not overwhelming as a virtue, but it was a damn good one. You could only get a couple characters with it because of the doubling cost. And if I recall, that second character was spending up near 100 points to get it.

Malorian
23-12-2009, 20:53
It was one of the Virtues in 5th edition. You essentially moved the knights a couple inches towards the enemy before the enemy unit did its charge move. Then both units counted as charging that turn so you got your lance attacks.

It's not overwhelming as a virtue, but it was a damn good one. You could only get a couple characters with it because of the doubling cost. And if I recall, that second character was spending up near 100 points to get it.

Cool.

As a virtue I can see that working as it limits itself like you say, just not as a general rule for all knights :)

Charistoph
23-12-2009, 21:57
Cool.

As a virtue I can see that working as it limits itself like you say, just not as a general rule for all knights :)

How about as a banner? Or both?

Malorian
24-12-2009, 03:28
A banner could work too, but it would have to be fairly costly as it's very powerful.

McBaine
24-12-2009, 11:41
It was one of the Virtues in 5th edition. You essentially moved the knights a couple inches towards the enemy before the enemy unit did its charge move. Then both units counted as charging that turn so you got your lance attacks.

It's not overwhelming as a virtue, but it was a damn good one. You could only get a couple characters with it because of the doubling cost. And if I recall, that second character was spending up near 100 points to get it.

The vitue was 30 points and back in the 5th edition the cost for virtues did not double when another character bought it, so in theory every character could take it for 30 points.

If its coming back (may it be as virtue or banner) they better make it one use only, otherwise it would be to much of a no brainer...

tezdal
24-12-2009, 19:08
I dont see why lots of people are against dismounted knights........I mean you dont always have a horse, or its wrong terrain for a horse......or lots of things. Dismounted knights would be awesome, remember how sexy the Reiksguard foot models were back in the day?

Ramius4
24-12-2009, 19:34
The vitue was 30 points and back in the 5th edition the cost for virtues did not double when another character bought it, so in theory every character could take it for 30 points.

If its coming back (may it be as virtue or banner) they better make it one use only, otherwise it would be to much of a no brainer...

Yep, had to go back and check and they didn't double in price back then. I recall usually having two characters with it pretty much every game. That and the extra charge distance. Then my Lord would almost always have Knightly Temper and Tress of Isoulde.

As long as they keep the doubling/ tripling in price and give the characters a seperate allowance for virtues it really wouldn't be an issue to include something like that at 30 points. You couldn't get two heroes with it (assuming they could get 50 points of virtues). So at best in a 2000 point game you could do a hero and your Lord (assuming he gets more than 50 points to spend).

However, I tend to agree with you that it was a no brainer choice. Something I'd like to avoid too. So doing one use would be fine with me.

Ludaman
24-12-2009, 20:42
I've been playing Brets for the last 14 years, and here's what I'd change:

- Add a lord choice for Grail Knight Lord (Similar to Black Orc Lords compared to regular orcs) One extra weapon skill, one extra attack, one extra initiative and Grail Vow. In all the fluff (especially the new "knight errant, and knight of the realm" books, the differance between the fighting prowess of a grail knight and a regular knight is night and day, they should be on par with chaos lords).
- Virtues don't cost magic item points. Also allow virtue of the penitent to take magic items. A stuborn character with the right equipment on his own can do all the same things that a Vargulf can and it's much more fluffy for Brets than some unridden monster. (My friend used to run a Boyar with sword of might and enchanted shield in his kislev allied contingent and that guy was a royal pain with stuborn.)
- I'd just give questing knights +1 strength Magic weapons with their shields, kinda like chaos knights now. Makes them a good choice again between realm and grail knights.
- Foot knights. Enough said...
- 4 Pt peasants otherwise the same as now. (I love my peasants)
- Pegasus knights as rare.
- Bring back scouting bowmen
- Allow Damsels access to Lore of Heavens. I'm not too worried about the line of sight thing, I'm sure 8th edition and new spell lores will sort things out. Lore of Life just needs a re-write, Beasts is actually pretty great most of the time except for the level one spell.
- I want a new Repanse sculpt! by one of the good sculptors, none of this Pumba-Gor business...
Honestly Brets are pretty good as they are now, they just suffer from a lack of options

Gromdal
13-01-2010, 17:48
Here is some ideas ive been playing around with:

-Remove the lance formation, make knights strike from two front ranks at all times instead (making brets stronger vs undead). Master of the lance rule.

-Remove grail knights from rare choice. Only allow paladins and lords to take the grail vow as an upgrade, grail vow makes you unbreakable, but all models with the grail vow must fight in the same unit (and that unit becomes unbreakable), gives you magical attacks and boost your stats with +1 ws, +1 str, +1 attack, +1 int.

-Move questing knights to rare choice (taking the stats from current grail knights and the effects of their virtue).

-Have pegasus knights as special but tone them down and make them alittle cheaper.

-Make peasant archers alot better.

-Make knights of the realm str 4, immune to panic.

-Remove the errantry banner for KE (they shouldnt be better than knights of the realm)

Alot of new virtues and magic items.

Col. Tartleton
13-01-2010, 20:22
Well lets look at history as our basis here.

In terms of Knightly units you need Nobles. You need Knights. You need Squires. You need Pages.

Nobles would be leaders, Knights soldiers, Squires hold flags, Pages play instruments.

All "Knights" have a horse. They have their heraldry worn by their Squire, Page, and their men at arms.

I'd like to see proper "knights" be cut back. The weight of knights in every army is too top heavy. I'm not saying to make it an infantry army, but Merchant cavalry and feudal sergeants should replace some of the knights. This would not at all hurt the army, the lesser knights like errants fit this role already.

For every actual knight you should have a unit of spear holding men at arms in his colors with a command made up of his sword brandishing Sergeant at Arms, his banner waving Squire, and his trumpeter Page. Knights should be a special choice. Make them elite, because you won't have a ton of them. Core cavalry will be merchant cavalry (the sons of rich men who think they're just as good as knights) which are currently your errants.

Feudal Sergeants would be questing knights in their goal of reaching knighthood. They'd probably forgo lance and shield and rely on their swordsmanship to prove their worth they'd have high weapon skill to compensate for their lack of training representing inherent skill. You'd also have dismounted Sergeants fighting in blocks with great weapons.

True Knights of the Realm would be the entourages of nobles and the hammer of evil! Lance Formation would be devastating charges and they'd be well armored and trained. They'd be heavily ornamented paladins all.

Then in rare you'd have your Grail Knights which are mini heroes with all the benefits of KotR and on top of that they're even better.

Also I think that Pegasus knights should be 0-1 rares and ridden by grail knights. Normal knights are unworthy of the can of whooperassery of a flying destrier of doom!

With these changes we alter the fluff to make more sense and do not invalidate model but allow for new models that depict the better ideals.

Peasents should be Man at Arm blocks with spears or halberds, Peasant Archers (Core archer blocks as now with flaming arrow upgrade and stakes upgrade), Yeoman archers (specials with skirmish and armor piercing), core crossbowmen mercenaries (0-1) for flavor, trebuchets and bolt throwers should be in rare. Grail Reliquaes would be upgrades to man at arms that make them stubborn and give them some backbone in fighting.

Malorian
13-01-2010, 20:24
Also I think that Pegasus knights should be 0-1 rares and ridden by grail knights. Normal knights are unworthy of the can of whooperassery of a flying destrier of doom!

Sound cool but how much would they cost?

Pegasus knights are pretty pricey as it is...

Col. Tartleton
13-01-2010, 20:38
Well how many pegasi have you seen before? Exactly. Rarity should be the name of the game. Besides with more points allotted to infantry that work well you can spend a few more points of Pegasus Knights.

Troah
13-01-2010, 21:15
1) Foot knights - Not exactly what you'd think of for Bretonnia but you can't fight on a horse ALL the time. Have them in the special section.

2) Questing Knights - Have them either have a sword with calvary hammer rules, or give them +1 strength.

3) Magic Items - Arcane items need some changing, it would be nice to see a costly item that gives a spellwielder the ability to do some damage. around 90-100 points so it's the only thing that character can get, and make it have some kind of downside like "roll a D6 at start of turn, if a 1 is rolled take a wound."

4) Grail Knights - Give them another wound or regeneration.

5) Hippogryph - Make it a bit stronger and not large target so it lives longer verse shooting.

6) Virtues - Instead of giving Bretonnia the monsterous creaters or overpowered super units give Bretonnian characters the options to get virtues (Like the one that gives killing blow to large targets) that offer counters to these awestricking juggernauts. Also make them not cost magic points.

7) Heroes - Some type of peasant lowborn hero would be nice with some restrictions on magic items and probably no virtues. I'm a fan of all peasant armies and it would be nice to have a little Robin Hood running around on my field of battle.

Malorian
13-01-2010, 22:07
Besides with more points allotted to infantry that work well you can spend a few more points of Pegasus Knights.

How does spending more points on infantry free up more points for pegasus knights?

SVKBaki
14-01-2010, 19:00
My few thoughts,

Considering that Bretonnia is cavalry based used for breaking the enemy formations, we need to streghten their break chances, especially today with many cases of stubborn or unbreakable units...

1. Lance formation is okay, impact hits are logical, maybe add +DX impact hits where X is the number of knights in addition to first rank. 6 man lance means +D2 impact hits, 9 man lance means +D4 impact hits...

2. Maybe killing blow on charge (still not so strong like ASF for HE) or immune to psychology on charge for all knights, which is logical, considering that hardly will something stop moving knights which consider themself as an elite of men.

3. In subsequent rounds of combat, maybe it will be logical, that also second rank could fight normally, considering the length of the lance, but on normal stregth of cource ,no bonus

4. Foot knights are not needed, instead make battle pilgrim sort of fanatical zealots, with high WS, hatred, maybe some sort of defensive prayer, and keep them stubborn, or even unbreakable. 0-1 is not needed anymore. they should be like sacred guardians of the dead grail knight remnants, not some scum which looks like the drunken vandals.

5. Unit with scout rule is essential, also some buffs to questing, like killing blow, or something that gives them S6 again.

6. Bretonnia should not be magic strong army, but definitely the Damsels should have some sort of defensive lore, or acces to some better lores of BRB.

7. Skirmishing archers, price is ok, remove the 0-1 restriction, or maybe make the longbows better, like armor piercing. The small template is good idea, but I think it should be allowed for at least units with 15+ models. Because we talk about indirect fire, also another ranks should be able to fire, which is logical, look at any historical film, or documentary, or just imagine, that first row could kneel and the ones behind them can shoot. Their points value is okay. Maybe here some restriction would be needed to prevent creation of shooting Brets, which is lame, you want to shoot, go for dwarves.

8. MAA - one point less and they are fine, maybe just for 2-3 pts/model with avaiable accesories, like marauder for example....WS2 fine, they are peasants, expendable units, we want stron knights

9.Considering the flanks protection problem in Bretonnia, and the problem of keeping up peasants with knights, mounted yeomen should be core choice.

10. Grail knights should be the elite of all warhammer world, so they need to be unbreakable, or stubborn at least, killing blow would be logical, not just on charge.

11. Trebuchet is fine, 0-1 ballista would be great.

12. Horses should be strenght 4, considering they are so strong, that they are not slowed by barding, not slowed for carrying knight, this can be about 250-300 kilos extra weight, so higher strenth is logical.

13. Virtues separate from magic items allowance, lot of new banners, items, virtues to choose from.

14. Pegasi are nice, hyppo fine but should not be large target and no more monsters, maybe some uber strong horse similar size to chaos steeds, or something like juggernaut but still horse, but with bigger proportions.

15. Some sort of magical protection against shooting, considering that one lucky hellblaster can wipe your whole lance in one turn, this is insane.

Dont get me wrong, I dont want all of these wishes together, as it will make Brets maybe insanely strong and even more mindless army, these are just thoughts from my brainstorming, impelemtnting even some of them would be nice.

I would like to see some church units, as bretonnia with the empire is the least fantasy oriented which I like, and in feudal society like they are, the churches always had strong influence, so seeing such units would be nice

Thanks for replies

Gromdal
14-01-2010, 19:28
I really agree with making grail knights into a super elite, i think limiting the grail vow to paladins and lord is one way of doing it (and very fitting with the fluff).

One cool option would be to make all models with the grail vow fight in the same unit and unable to join other units. Make them unbreakable and give them an improved blessing of a 2+ ward save. Being very rare, you could only have one model with the grail vow per 1k pts.

And seeing as they all have to be in the same unit, no worries of a deathstar unit.

Malorian
14-01-2010, 19:56
I really agree with making grail knights into a super elite, i think limiting the grail vow to paladins and lord is one way of doing it (and very fitting with the fluff).

One cool option would be to make all models with the grail vow fight in the same unit and unable to join other units. Make them unbreakable and give them an improved blessing of a 2+ ward save. Being very rare, you could only have one model with the grail vow per 1k pts.

And seeing as they all have to be in the same unit, no worries of a deathstar unit.

I think you've gone insane... ;)

Rolo Ramone
14-01-2010, 20:15
Reading the post, Im pretty sure that a lot of people who adds to this wish list do not actually play with Bretonnia.

Shadow_Steed
14-01-2010, 20:48
Reading the post, Im pretty sure that a lot of people who adds to this whislist do not actually play with Bretonnia.

I have to agree with this, as a True Bretonnian the last thing I want is for them to become overpowered. I would rather have them with the less strong armies.

Malorian
14-01-2010, 21:09
One of the reasons I play with mine so little is because of people giving me heck for using an over-powered army... so I agree with you there.

I really just want a few minor fixes and changes along with a new unit or two.

Zaonite
14-01-2010, 22:19
I play brets because I've never seen anyone else play them, it's like Grey Knights armies for 40k, loads of people have em but no-one ever sees them...

Now SVKbaki has made some brilliant suggestions. Like;

Killing blow on the charge
S4 horses
The archers suggestion is sublime

I'd like to see;

a slight buff to grail knights, I want them with 2 wounds each. nothing else.
separate virtues and magic items (everyone else has it)
update to all magic items. Ie not so bloody many "one use only" items.
I'd also like to see a hero level peasant character.

If anything, I feel that these things I mention here will bring the army into line but not make them overpowered.

Gromdal
14-01-2010, 22:25
Power wise brets are fine now since the new demons, vc and DE. But i still want them changed

My favorite ideas are

-Move Questing knights to the stats of current grail knights and take their slot as rare.

-Make the grail vow really rare and powerful, limit it greatly (jst like in the fluff)

-Less flying circus

-Less focus on KE move it to KOTR.

-Power wise keep as is, maybe give some kind of boost vs demons.

-New magic items and virtues (max 100 pts of each)

-Change the lance formation to maybe alittle less punch on charge but alittle more to second round.
Fighting in two ranks at all times seems nice.

SVKBaki
14-01-2010, 23:22
I play Bretonnia, unbreakable and stubborn units are the most problematic for me

The grail knights should be the ultra elite units, 2W is nice, but rather I would like to see extended offensive abilities, maybe increased ward save against shooting, T4 or magically enhanced armor with save 0+ or 1+. 0-1 restriction can still apply.
For their points, they should really do more, maybe +1 attack.

Another idea is to trigger some action when grail knights are present on the battlefield, for example due to their inspiring presence, all other knights are stubborn, or fight with more zeal, any ideas are welcome.


Thing that concern me, is the lack of magical attacks which can harm for ex. ethereal creaturs like cairn wraiths who can be very problematic unit, as they can outmaneuver our grail knights easily and cause terror in flanks, not mentioning the banshee...

I would like to see Bretonnia as least fantasy as possible, rather like the best cavalry the manhood can offer, full of heroic knights, which still have long and vulnerable flanks, so that we have to think how to protect them.

Maybe all knights should have hatred agains missile units, it would be logical, as missile troops are considered cowards. 25% killed models by shooting shouldnt make them panic, but instead make the knights more angry, give them Frenzy for example. Less knights, but angry by the unglory dead of their comrades. Logically, when you see your comrades killed in such way, you will not flee like goblin or skaven rat. (Especially when in fluff Giles le Breton was killed by a ranged weapon).
Something similar should be made against magical attacks as well, as such death is not glorious nor heroic. But only for some, like magic missiles...

Another idea worth considering in my opinion is to make some lesser virtues for the champions, to more customize the roles of knight units.
Or if grail knights are so legendary and rare, make them as a really strong champions with access to lesser virtues which can affect the whole unit (such strong is their spirit, and why not, drinking from holy grail is not everyday action :) )

Immune to psychology on charge is again logical, when you are charging with your companions behind you, you wont stop before bunch of stupid slow zombies or some skeletons, assuming you consider yourself heroic knight, which is the case of the bretonnians.

Personally I dont like the new GW power army trend, but if we want to stay competitive, we must dare to ask for more ;)

More variety in infantry would be nice, but then it will just become second Empire, which cannot be allowed, Bretonnia is a land of chivalry, to me, they are like Rohan in LOTR.

soots
14-01-2010, 23:44
Minotaurs got bull charge.

I think its getting more likely that Knights may get it since theyre more devastating (heavier, faster) than ogres/minotaurs charging at you.

Havock
15-01-2010, 00:01
Preferably a full-on proper medieval army. Yes for knights, no for a one-dimensional point & click army.

How about proper heavy infantry? Dismounted knights, either with shields for decent saves or with poleaxes for some proper skull-crushing and can-opening?
Empire is more of a ranged army, perhaps this could be the "good" human killshit up close army? The choice of all-cav, mixed or a severe case of marching a crapton of heavily armored, angry knights through your opponent's throat should be a player choice.

Chiron
15-01-2010, 01:50
Minotaurs got bull charge.

I think its getting more likely that Knights may get it since theyre more devastating (heavier, faster) than ogres/minotaurs charging at you.

Knights arent about heavy charging, they are about precise blows, those lances should ideally have the full weight of the charging horse and knight behind them.

Given the codex creep I'm expecting something akin to doing damage to files of troops per lance strike (eg, for each knight in the charge they do +1 hit per rank of enemy troops, possibly similar to a bolt thrower hit)

Sygerrik
15-01-2010, 02:27
Knights on foot fit the medieval history bill but not Knight in Bretonnia would be caught dead doing it. HOWEVER, I see a possibility for a "Disgraced Knight" unit-- Knights that have lost their status and are fighting for the chance to earn it back. Because they are not bound by their knightly vows, the lords tolerate them and even employ them on the battlefield because they get results. Skirmishers with GW and xbows and full plate armor, maybe?

soots
15-01-2010, 03:21
Knights arent about heavy charging, they are about precise blows, those lances should ideally have the full weight of the charging horse and knight behind them.


When i think Bretonnia, i think knights of Rohan.

Return of the King -> Rohan vs Orcs.

Now thats a lot of impacts/trampling and not so much lancing!

ChaosVC
15-01-2010, 03:34
I wish bretonnia is less of a point and click army then it already is. Making one of the mounted units into elite foot knights (like questing knights) would make it more interesting. They really don't need so many varity of mounted units that do the same thing...which is why it is such a power army with a stupid brainless design for a point and click army.

Petey
15-01-2010, 05:48
My fixes?
*Pegasus Knights to Rare no unit limit, unit size 1-5
*Trebuchet to Special
*Reliquary to Rare added special rules to give bonuses to all peasants
*Infantry brought in line with new points costs as seen in other army books
*Questing Knights available on foot or mounted.
*Change the virtues; have them in addition to magic items, no doubling costs, change some of the powers to be more inline with current game design, etc
*Remove rank bonus from Lance formation, otherwise keep it the same
*Peasant hero as in a brigand that gives a unit of skirmishing archers that he joins the scout rule
*More special characters (to be expected really)
*Add lore of heavens to hero level damsels options
*Add arcane items that let give the damsel specific spells to target knight champions/heroes with similar to how it's handled in beasts of chaos.
*Alter vows, It seems rediculous to me that every duke in brettonia is a grail knight or questing knight or disallow the Lord from taking those as he would be too busy running his fief.
*Battle Cleric special character or unit upgrade for units, inspiring knights and peasants to greater feats of courage in the name of the lady.
*The fluff and feel of the army should change to be even closer to crusader knights and also make their armies more likely to be in errantry wars some random place on the planet
*More fluff that is medieval in flavor, dark and get away from the arthurian nonsense.
*Unit of battle monks, special choice, lower stats than men at arms, frenzy, impetuous charge (as knights errant) provides the lady's blessing to peasants nearby, Better weapon options than peasants, May not be joined by heroes.
*The blessing have a point cost, maybe 20pt per unit of knights, with some units getting it for free (unchanged as far as bonuses it currently provides) instead of losing the first turn
*Peasant archers remaining unchanged, they re perfect
*Keeping Men at arms crappy, but allowing for veteran men at arms via a virtue or special character
*Banner that gives the impetuous rule to a unit who carries it, ie must charge, immune to psychology on a turn you charge. Any knight unit may take this banner instead of a buying a normal or magical banner that they would normally be allowed
*Dont change peasant duty
*A special character princess that you give your opponent, that he must put in a unit or give to a monster that gives you bonuses when fighting that unit/monster. You get extra vp for saving her, limit one per army. Lose vp if you don't save her by the battle's end
*Banner that makes a knight unit cause fear or terror on a charge
*An arcane item that lets you cast bear's anger on a mounted knight
*allow damsels to cast spells while in a unit of knights as if she were in the front row (either by army special rule or magic item)
*Here s a totally whacky one, a rare choice that gives you a piece of terrain that's considered sacred to brettonia, placed on the table outside both deployment zones, or inside the enemy's deployment zone, which gives bret knights some kind of bonus near it. Similar to chaos war alter, but they need to get to it, or near it, as they crusade to save/protect areas of the world sacred to the lady, wherever they may be, in Brettonia or out.

McBaine
15-01-2010, 11:29
a slight buff to grail knights, I want them with 2 wounds each. nothing else.
I could see T4 or a blesseing save that is always 5+ for Grail knights or a boost to LD9 (like in 5th edition), but never ever will they get a second wound. Why should they ? They are a unit of non-character humans. I think it wont happen.
Many of you seem to go with the fluff, saying grail knights should just be one or two and not entire units, but therefor they should be over the top strong...
Playing bretonnians myself this is not what I would want. And in game mechanics I dont think such a thing would happen either. Bretonnia lacked a variety of units. In 5th edition we got 4 kinds of knights and a fist full of peasants... in 6th edition GW added 3 units (pegasus knights/battle pilgrims/trebuchet) to fix this. I dont expect them to remove a unit.
And for those who are going with the fluff, every army book has its glorifying fluff for some units. If they went by that every single chaos warrior would be unbreakable...
I also would want GW to keep them with human like stats (grail knight may be a bit better) and not chaos mortals or demon statlines. It would destroy the feeling of the army.

Just my two cents.

Shadow_Steed
15-01-2010, 12:24
My favorite ideas are

-Move Questing knights to the stats of current grail knights and take their slot as rare.

-Make the grail vow really rare and powerful, limit it greatly (jst like in the fluff)



I agree fully to this idea, it has always bothered me that a Grail Knight is weaker than a non Grail Virtue Paladin.

Gromdal
15-01-2010, 12:52
I do not think brets lack variety, its a themed army it is not the empire.

If you chose brets and want an infantry force you made a mistake.

Brets are the heroic mounted knights, there is only so many variations of this you can make and the line gw has made i think is good

KE to KOTR to Questing knight to GRAIL knight.

Its a great journey from a 15 yeard old kid to a feudal knight at 20, and those with the guts become questing knights and very few become the ultimate pinnacle of bret society, the fabled grail knight.

Adding mounted yeomen (not as core, the knights should always be)
And men at arms and bowmen and trebuchets and pegasus knights (my least favorite bret unit, barbie unicorns that is nasty)

And you still get alot of variety BUT the knights should be the whole core of the army.

Gromdal
15-01-2010, 12:56
I agree fully to this idea, it has always bothered me that a Grail Knight is weaker than a non Grail Virtue Paladin.

Yup seeing as one is jst a good fighter and a knight, worthy of respect and the other is a living example whom inspires the whole of society (in many ways more than a duke).

Stonewyrm
15-01-2010, 13:26
I wonder why in a wishlist for a middle tier army people keep suggesting nerfing the best units? And why do people keep talking about a powerarmy? Or complain about the RAF? Or suggest taking the rank bonus out of the Lance formation?
I don't know who you guys are playing against but I have never been able to succesfully "point and click" with my Brets, I get massacered when I do. I have always had to be better than my opponent, out manouver him/her and pick my charges exactly to be able to win (I play against SAD, DE of all types, HE, VC DoC). That being said I do win and I like my Brets as they are, they just need some tweeking to keep up with how Warhammer has changed since the book came out.
I like some of the other ideas that have been suggested namely (besides the ones I already mentioned):
1)Lore of Heavens and/or Light, change to Damsel LoS rules
2)KB for Quest Knights, on reflection not to make them more powerful but to make them different, I love knights and I would like to see uniqueness among the different types. Keep Brets a Knight Army, we have WoC and Empire for the rest.
3)Counter Charge as a virtue and /or banner. Great idea
4)The idea for a sort of "Green Knight" as a kind of monster choice. If you don't want a Lion/Hippogryph/Gryphon ect. for fluff reasons then this is a great altenative.
5)"Barbie Unicorns"? Why not, would be a different kind of Knight, I guess ;)
Stonewyrm
P.S. PK are my favorite unit, please don't nerf them. They might have been OP at some point (before I played Brets) but now they seem both good in their role in the army and correct in the (high) point cost.

Odin
15-01-2010, 13:37
My suggestion would be

1) Questing Knight on foot - these guys seem the most suitable candidates to be on foot, as they will often have to fight on foot if they do any Warhammer Quest style questing. Option for shields or great weapons perhaps?

2) The great wepaon rules may get changed anyway in the new edition of WHFB. But I think they need to be +2S on the charge, +1S the rest of the time. That would fix Questing Knights I think - just as strong as lances on the charge, stronger in a drawn-out combat, but lower armour save. Or how about a rule that gives them +1S against enemies with T5 or greater?

Apart from that they only really need a bit of internal balancing and they're sorted. Maybe a new war machine (bolt thrower?). I disagree about having a points value for virtues - they're clearly supposed to represent a very specific focus for a character, you shouldn't be able to have more than one.

Towelie
15-01-2010, 14:29
Ok here are my comments:

1) The grail relique shouldn't be able to carry the dead body of a grail knight because if it did wouldn't the other knights just have them all killed for desecration of their heroes?
2) The infantry needs a small buff. People have suggested foot knights which I think is a great idea. For those of you who believe a knigts legs are painted on an alternative could be the lads taken by the enchantress could start returning as either leaders for peasent units or a unit of there own.
3) Damsel/Prophetess lore of light is a great idea.
4) A change to the questing knights is needed but I'm not sure what. Though I am a bit dubious about making them infantry as they do more traveling than anyone ellse in the army so it would make sense for them to have a horse.

Finally I believe that our archers arent anything special. As they haven't had any formal training. And there bows will be average at best as they are peasent supplied. So as much sense as alot of the suggested changes to the longbowmen would make it might be better for those changes to show up in the 8th edition rule book rather than in the bretonnian book. Likewise cavalry impact hits would be for all heavy cavalry not just ours .

Logan_uc
15-01-2010, 14:57
1) point costs on par with other army books*

2) questing vow, as the standard vow.

3) stuborn QK, this would make them useful, and i think its flufy*, plus possibly a rule that gives them hatred vs high ws and monsters.

4) better magic items, and make virtues not count to magic items allowence.

5) better magic defence.*

6) ways to deal with undead* and deamons.

7) new magic lore based on counter magic and some unded and deamon hatred.

8) GK with toughness 4, and get 2x combat res against unded and undead and deamons.

9) a new unit or two, and a new model for miss piggy (aka mounted damesel)

Ok the ones with * after are the ones i relly htink berts need, the other are thing i would like to see.

Havock
15-01-2010, 15:01
Making men at arms WS3 is fine IMHO, this whole 'downtrodden malnutritioned peasantry put into service' is a silly thing, they wouldn't be able to keep up and empty stomachs rise up.

Make them standard infantry comparable in stats to empire state troops but with a lower Ld to reflect them being 'weekend soldiers'.


Knights on foot fit the medieval history bill but not Knight in Bretonnia would be caught dead doing it.

Unless they have to fight on rocky ground, in woods or *gasp* in cities? Any knight would prefer to be on horseback, but there are plenty of situations were that is either inadvisable or even impossible.
I would rather like it if they retconned the army away from "we are fighting on horsies, with lances AND TRALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOUR GUNS AND INFANTRY!".
The possibility to field dismounted knights would make the army less one dimensional, I think that is a fair tradeoff for a retcon.
If it would even be called like that, perhaps they are just growing brains in Bretonnia ;)

Logan_uc
15-01-2010, 15:18
Making men at arms WS3 is fine IMHO, this whole 'downtrodden malnutritioned peasantry put into service' is a silly thing

no its not. its a great thing to see a true world reference in warhammer. in the real world in the countries where feudal regime was strong infantry was week compared to countries where it was less opressive.

Odin
15-01-2010, 15:19
Unless they have to fight on rocky ground, in woods or *gasp* in cities? Any knight would prefer to be on horseback, but there are plenty of situations were that is either inadvisable or even impossible.
I would rather like it if they retconned the army away from "we are fighting on horsies, with lances AND TRALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOUR GUNS AND INFANTRY!".
The possibility to field dismounted knights would make the army less one dimensional, I think that is a fair tradeoff for a retcon.
If it would even be called like that, perhaps they are just growing brains in Bretonnia ;)

Indeed. What do Bretonnian knights do if they want to capture a castle? Do the knights just charge the walls with their lances? Or just sit back watching the battle and hoping the peasants can capture the castle? Neither is very satisfactory.

Logan_uc
15-01-2010, 15:36
Unless they have to fight on rocky ground, in woods or *gasp* in cities? Any knight would prefer to be on horseback, but there are plenty of situations were that is either inadvisable or even impossible.
I would rather like it if they retconned the army away from "we are fighting on horsies, with lances AND TRALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOUR GUNS AND INFANTRY!".
The possibility to field dismounted knights would make the army less one dimensional, I think that is a fair tradeoff for a retcon.
If it would even be called like that, perhaps they are just growing brains in Bretonnia ;)

In the 100 year war a vast knight force from france was butchered by english archers because they were on muddy grounds and didnt dismount, so i cant seem to find any reason to have foot knights in a bret army, being mouted is more to a knight than a tatical advantage, its a status symbol.

And if you get brets using infantry armys, you lose what makes them unic, if you think its bad, play empire, thats the army for that kind of things.

Logan_uc
15-01-2010, 15:56
Indeed. What do Bretonnian knights do if they want to capture a castle? Do the knights just charge the walls with their lances? Or just sit back watching the battle and hoping the peasants can capture the castle? Neither is very satisfactory.
the 2nd is, siege is job where there is no glory or honor to gain and much to lose. Foot knights were used only after the pesant captured the walls, and not all ways. and this is in case of a siege not a common thing in a warhammer game.

knightwire
15-01-2010, 15:57
In the 100 year war a vast knight force from france was butchered by english archers because they were on muddy grounds and didnt dismount, so i cant seem to find any reason to have foot knights in a bret army, being mouted is more to a knight than a tatical advantage, its a status symbol.

And if you get brets using infantry armys, you lose what makes them unic, if you think its bad, play empire, thats the army for that kind of things.

Logan, Bretonnians are also (and further should be) represented by the Longbowmen, Men-at-Arms and <Gasp!> Dismounted Knights on the English side of that battle as well. Since they are a composite of that entire era of warfare, dismounted knights are just as cool and fluffy.

Besides the obviously stated castle/siege type battles, Knights will run out of trained warhorses on long campaigns. These Knights aren't going to sit out the rest of the battles. Also there is already a Foot Knight virtue in the book.

Odin
15-01-2010, 16:03
the 2nd is, siege is job where there is no glory or honor to gain and much to lose. Foot knights were used only after the pesant captured the walls, and not all ways. and this is in case of a siege not a common thing in a warhammer game.

Well, I'm hoping that Siege will become a bigger part of the game again. Surely it's a good candidate for a Cities of Death style expansion (again)?

No honour to gain from capturing a highly fortified enemy position against all the odds? I'd have thought knights would be pushing to the front of the queue to join the forlorn hope.

I don't think footknights should be a big part of the Bretonnian army, but there is a place for them.

Logan_uc
15-01-2010, 16:12
Logan, Bretonnians are also (and further should be) represented by the Longbowmen, Men-at-Arms and <Gasp!> Dismounted Knights on the English side of that battle as well. Since they are a composite of that entire era of warfare, dismounted knights are just as cool and fluffy.

Besides the obviously stated castle/siege type battles, Knights will run out of trained warhorses on long campaigns. These Knights aren't going to sit out the rest of the battles. Also there is already a Foot Knight virtue in the book.

I dont think so, the french had men-at-arms, foot knights and longbowmen.
If the brets longbowmen where to represent the british ones they would have ws 3 and bs 4, as british longbowmen were very well trained and feed.
Brets are french medieval army gone to the extreme plus fantastic things like pegasus, magic and hipogriffins.
And virtue of empathy, is there more to show how rare it is for a bertonnian knight to fight dismounted.

knightwire
15-01-2010, 16:22
Sorry Logan, but you are way overthinking this. Not to mention arguing against your self:


Brets are french medieval army...


I dont think so, the french had men-at-arms, foot knights and longbowmen.

Emphasis mine. :rolleyes:

Also:


And virtue of empathy, is there more to show how rare it is for a bertonnian knight to fight dismounted.

It's too bad WFB has no way to distinguish certain units as being more rare then others eh? :eyebrows:

Logan_uc
15-01-2010, 17:56
Sorry Logan, but you are way overthinking this. Not to mention arguing against your self:

no i didnt, its french gone extreme, they did not like to use foot knights, only in in dire need, brets are a fantasy army (not the real french army) that emphasis this to a extreme.

Malorian
15-01-2010, 18:00
On the topic of foot knights, would people rather that there were foot knights available as a unit, or that any unit of knights could dismount at the start of their turn?

I'm starting to like the idea of the second one more and more...

Turn 1: Rush towards the tower
Turn 2: Dismount and charge!

Logan_uc
15-01-2010, 18:02
It's too bad WFB has no way to distinguish certain units as being more rare then others eh? :eyebrows:

i think a charecter with a special rule that must be bought, and its more expensive to buy the next time, is the rarest you can find, so a unit of this guys isnt rare its utopic.

Necromancer2
15-01-2010, 18:16
I don't like the idea of Foot Knights.

Malorian
15-01-2010, 18:18
I don't like the idea of Foot Knights.

Neither do I but the fact remains that sometimes you have to take buidlings and peasants certainly aren't going to get the job done.

Logan_uc
15-01-2010, 18:24
Neither do I but the fact remains that sometimes you have to take buidlings and peasants certainly aren't going to get the job done.

thats the pesants job, at the most a unit of yeomen

Malorian
15-01-2010, 18:29
thats the pesants job, at the most a unit of yeomen

But they won't get it done...

I mean really, if there is any unit in a building that you need to knock out the old way peasants will get it done is with extreme luck.

I'd rather the option to dismount (lossing the horses for the rest of the game) in order to be able to enter the building with a unit of knights.

Logan_uc
15-01-2010, 18:37
But they won't get it done...

I mean really, if there is any unit in a building that you need to knock out the old way peasants will get it done is with extreme luck.

I'd rather the option to dismount (lossing the horses for the rest of the game) in order to be able to enter the building with a unit of knights.

In wharhammer the knights that seem the less likely to do this are brets, and still you think they should, then way not chaos knights or cold one riders?

Malorian
15-01-2010, 18:44
Because they have decent troops that can do the same thing, Brets don't...


Just think of what would happen if there were chaos warrors or black guard/executioners in a building, do you think there is any way men at arms would be able to beat them and push them out?

How about the other way around, do you think there is any way the men at arms are going to hold the building from assaulting chaos warriors or black guard/executioners?


This change would allow Brets to stand a chance where buildings are involved while at the same time make them pay for it (no more horses for the rest of the game).

Logan_uc
15-01-2010, 18:53
Because they have decent troops that can do the same thing, Brets don't...


Just think of what would happen if there were chaos warrors or black guard/executioners in a building, do you think there is any way men at arms would be able to beat them and push them out?

How about the other way around, do you think there is any way the men at arms are going to hold the building from assaulting chaos warriors or black guard/executioners?


This change would allow Brets to stand a chance where buildings are involved while at the same time make them pay for it (no more horses for the rest of the game).

use the grail relique, it will take time but it will wear them down, or you can ignore them.
brets should have some weekness, and they have, poor infantry.

Malorian
15-01-2010, 18:57
Ignore them?

Did you not hear there will be missions in 8th?


And I think the grail relique will be worn down first... (and can they even enter buildings since they aren't all infantry?)

kdh88
15-01-2010, 19:47
Foot Knights are fluffy for many Bret armies. Montfort has no room for horses to be raised or for cavalry to maneuver, so its forces fight almost entirely on foot. The same would be true of knights in other mountainous areas (which seem to be rather common). As mentioned above, there's also the matter of sieges. Historically, the average knight would have been in far more sieges than open battles, and Bretonnians have so many castles that they probably fight more sieges than any warhammer race other than Dwarves (who seem to fight nothing else).

Havock
15-01-2010, 20:49
And if you get brets using infantry armys, you lose what makes them unic, if you think its bad, play empire, thats the army for that kind of things.

Empire is more of a shooty-combined arms army. The only thing you could use as dismounted knights is greatswords.


I don't like the idea of Foot Knights.

Then you simply wouldn't use them?
It's better to have the option and not use it, than want it and not be able to, right?

Stumpy
15-01-2010, 21:58
If the enemy is in a building, destroy the building. I use the empire, my guys can't knock stuff out of buildings either. But if you shoot it with a war machine, they start running out once they realise how the damage works. Please note I only use 1 cannon in 2500 points, so its not 'just an empire over brettonia thing.'

Havock
16-01-2010, 00:22
Bretonnia doesn't have cannons, they have a single stone thrower which competes with grail knights for that precious rare slot.

Gromdal
16-01-2010, 08:15
So you are worried about siege battles and capturing buildings. Simply make a dismount rule for brets (or call it skills on horseback) and let the knights capture things.

I mean its not that hard to fix with a rule, you dont have to add 3 new units just for siege battles.

Logan_uc
16-01-2010, 08:34
really the idea of foot knights goes against the image of brets, a solution for me is more simple, a unit of yeomen wardens:

special choice:

WS-3 BS-3 S-3 T-3 W-1 I-3 A-2 Ld-6

heavy armour, shield, pesants duty, For thy liege (some kind of special rule to meke them special and better).

this is decent enough compared to many infantry units in the game.

snurl
16-01-2010, 08:39
I like the idea of knights being able to dismount when needed.

Logan_uc
16-01-2010, 08:50
I like the idea of knights being able to dismount when needed.
and having to buy twice the models, and making a exception to the rules in the army that is least likely to do so.

Gromdal
16-01-2010, 09:50
and having to buy twice the models, and making a exception to the rules in the army that is least likely to do so.

Riding skills: Bretonnia knights can fight on horseback when capturing buildings. But fight at -1 ws from controlling the horse in such narrow places.


Problem fixed.

Stonewyrm
16-01-2010, 12:00
I like the riding skills rule, shows Brets superior Horsemanship but I would also find the dismount rule ok. As long as the Knights are able to get back on their mounts later. If they permanently lose their mounts that's 10 points per Knight they are giving up for the rest of the battle, that's too much. The penalty of have to dismount (lose speed), attack (without extry mount attacks), capture and then get back on their mounts is enough.
My typical list includes 25 to 35 Knights at 2k, that's 300+ points (and a ton of speed, what are we Brets without speed?) I would be giving up if they are forced to dismount, I would rather have 1 (and only 1) option for foot knights (costing 10 points less of course) in that case.

Havock
16-01-2010, 12:19
Riding skills: Bretonnia knights can fight on horseback when capturing buildings. But fight at -1 ws from controlling the horse in such narrow places.


Problem fixed.

How the hell are you getting that huge-ass destrier through a door only 1,8 meters tall?

Havock
16-01-2010, 12:22
So you are worried about siege battles and capturing buildings. Simply make a dismount rule for brets (or call it skills on horseback) and let the knights capture things.

I mean its not that hard to fix with a rule, you dont have to add 3 new units just for siege battles.

No, it should be added because it makes the army more interesting. Foot knights are awesome, there are no 'good' human orelven factions with proper heavy infantry.

Then again, I would also be advocating that full plate should become available for brets, it makes sense.

Gromdal
16-01-2010, 15:35
Seeing as ogres can take buildings, a bret knight surely could.

Stonewyrm
16-01-2010, 15:47
Seeing as ogres can take buildings, a bret knight surely could.

Good point, I guess this is Fantasy after all :)

Kingbreaker
17-01-2010, 15:15
I'm just getting into WFB. I'd love to play Brets for the theme and figures (unbeatable) but I'd like to see some more options for playstyles. . . meaning, not quite as one-dimensional as I've heard.

From what I can tell, Brets should have the option for a slow, slogging, heavy infantry unit. You could use grail knights, but how about. . . . squires or serjeants. These are either too young to be dubbed or slightly too poor.

Historically, armored knights fought on foot all the time, particularly in the 100 Years War and the Wars of the Roses. More to the point, there are numerous examples of foot combat in all of the Aurthurian Romances, from Chretien de Troyes to Malory.

brawnyman1989
17-01-2010, 19:36
I think that Brets are fine right now. The only thing they really need is a relatively strong foot unit. Otherwise, I think they are one of the better balanced armies right now (except against undead/demons, cause they don't break).

The Blue Knight
17-01-2010, 22:34
I think that Brets are fine right now.

As a long time Bret Player I wholehearted agree with that statement.

I do not think that we need a stronger foot unit as that is one of our weakeness that helps balance us. Nor do we need a monster as that seems very unfluffy (IMO) as I believe that our young Knights Errant would be constantly trying to prove their martial prowess by trying to kill it!

We are just fine as we are, no changes please.

Havock
17-01-2010, 23:47
I'm just getting into WFB. I'd love to play Brets for the theme and figures (unbeatable) but I'd like to see some more options for playstyles. . . meaning, not quite as one-dimensional as I've heard.

From what I can tell, Brets should have the option for a slow, slogging, heavy infantry unit. You could use grail knights, but how about. . . . squires or serjeants. These are either too young to be dubbed or slightly too poor.

Historically, armored knights fought on foot all the time, particularly in the 100 Years War and the Wars of the Roses. More to the point, there are numerous examples of foot combat in all of the Aurthurian Romances, from Chretien de Troyes to Malory.

No, of course not. Bretonnia has nothing but nice fields with steady ground perfect for cavalry charges. Woods? Mountains? this isn't the empire, we don't do geography!
Nor do we use tactics, we just blindly charge at things with pointy sticks and knights.

Ahem.
Once more; having the option for foot knights would make the army more interesting, it's not like I am advocating that all mounted models be special and foot knights be the new mainstay. The armybook should allow for a bit more variation beyond the color of your horses.

Nighthawke
18-01-2010, 01:07
foot units would allow more variation
only unnits i would like for fun would be warhounds as hunting dogs sort of thing, and if they do foot troops they could be say the dukes/lords guards, so better then men at arms since they are trained etc between a KOTR and a peasent stat wise

Logan_uc
18-01-2010, 11:07
No, of course not. Bretonnia has nothing but nice fields with steady ground perfect for cavalry charges. Woods? Mountains? this isn't the empire, we don't do geography!
Nor do we use tactics, we just blindly charge at things with pointy sticks and knights.

Ahem.
Once more; having the option for foot knights would make the army more interesting, it's not like I am advocating that all mounted models be special and foot knights be the new mainstay. The armybook should allow for a bit more variation beyond the color of your horses.

Its funny that you speak of the empire, i love when they field their unmounted knightly orders:p

I cant see how foot knights would make the army more interesting, it will take the character of brets, and lets face it, you wouldnt use foot knights unless they are overpowerd (just look at the top armys). a unit of yeomen wardens would fill the same role without urting the fluff.

The thing is brets arent in dire need of new infantry, they need answers to deamons, undead and magic heavy armys. a new infantry unit (a unit of wardens seem to do the job for me), may have its uses but changing the feel and fluff of the army just for it, IMHO isnt a very good thing.

for the people against hippogryphs, they are more in character then pegasus for mediaval fantasy army, the only problem with them is that they are weeker than griffins, and that should not be.

Havock
18-01-2010, 17:15
Well the empire has greatswords :p

You wouldn't even need to change the fluff for the army apart form 'times have changed, this works, the enemies of our realm don't always fight fair on square terrain. That's when we get off our horses and still whoop their ****, because we are badass knights.'

Well, it just appears that we don;t agree, so it doesn't really matter, but I still think it's betetr to have the option and not need it than the other way around.

SaintofVirtue
19-01-2010, 00:52
I think Brets need an update. Not an overhaul. They have many things that are still great today.
I would like to see our magic items get redone. Some are nice, some are ok, some are useless. As it stands these need an update and points redone on many items.

Do I see us needing powerful or even mediocre infantry? No. I see us needing some way to clear buildings and fight sieges. Isn't that what this boils down to?
I like the skilled rider rule above but balance it by saying that each knight counts as 2 models for the purposes of space (IE only 5 and the horses can fight 10 other models) and make it so that they can't march into the building.

That said, I don't see the need for foot knights. I do see a need for variety though. What about a points drop or a slight stat boost on M@A? I hardly ever see them mentioned. The book needs something other than Knight, knight and a different knight. Do I think infantry is the answer? No I don't. I think the different knight ranks should be different from one another.
Really right now they all play kind of the same. Separate them, make them all unique to the others and you've got a recipe for awesome!

Gromdal
19-01-2010, 13:03
I want the brets to stay in style with the current army book, full focus on the knights with some fun support units.

I also agree that they dont need an overhaul, simply an update.

Rules for taking buildings (like the one i suggested)
Maybe something to make them work better vs demons and undead and we are good to go!

Kayosiv
19-01-2010, 18:50
I would like to perhaps see undead and deamons have a chance to explode at the mere presence of Grail Knights. They've supped from the holy grail, they are living saints. Demons or undead even attempting to get within 10 feet of them should have a chance to explode. Or, perhaps make their "magic attacks" that don't do much of anything, deal +1 strength against demons/undead/forest spirits.

Logan_uc
19-01-2010, 20:01
"bane of the dead" special rule from harry the hammer wold be lovely in GK.

Gromdal
20-01-2010, 13:13
Actually i think the problem more lies in the power of the charge on the first round vs second round combat vs enemies that are "unbreakable".

Changing the lance rules might work wonders here.

Hrogoff the Destructor
21-01-2010, 23:53
As a whole I think Brets are a great book that needs very little changing.

The most important changes I'd like to see include:
1. Virtues costing seperate from magic items
2. No mainstay knights of the realm unit
3. Damsels can cast from second rank
4. Questing knights +2 str. from great weapons
5. No 0-1 limits, move peg. knights to rare

The fun "I could care less" changes/additions include:
1. Knights on foot
2. Maybe a constant 5+ ward from the blessing for grail knights
3. Make living saints special rule affect fights against undead/daemons/tree spirits.
4. Give damsels their own unique lore of the lady, or at least some useful lore in the brb
5. A new hero choice
6. New war machine maybe?

And since Brettonia is about as stereotypical as armies get... why not some cliche heroes to top it off?
1. How about a questing knight hero seeking the grail
2. Or a shamed knight seeking to retore his honor
3. A peasant hero desperating trying to become a knight
4. A knight who is a legendary slayer of large creatures
5. Maybe bring back the Joan of Arc character, Robin Hood, or that funky Jester fellow

SaintofVirtue
22-01-2010, 01:38
Here's an idea for grail knights:

Living saints, any undead/daemon unit that is beaten in cc suffers double the negative modifier for purposes of crumbling or instability.
I.E. You fight zombies and win by 5. 10 zombies crumble.
You fight daemons and win by 3, they take the instability at -6.

Instead of +2S from great weapons on the QK I'd kind of like to see them enter from a different table edge like miners. I'd take them without the boost to strength.

The problem with moving Peg knights to rare is the rare slots become overloaded. If they are placed there then I would say that there would be something to bring them down to special again. (hero on peg, virtue of audacity since it happens to represent Parravon) Whether they need to go to rare is a matter of preference I think. I don't think they need to go there but I can understand why others think they do.

Make damsels more than scroll caddies. I agree wholeheartedly. A personal idea is that they cast prayers like sigmar priests.