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theworldsnerd
14-12-2009, 13:54
Hero's

Orc Great Shaman 240
+ lvl 4
+ nibbla's 'itty ring

Goblin Shaman 200
+ lvl 2
+ chariot
+ staff of sneaky stealing

Goblin Shaman 175
+ lvl 2
+ chariot
+ dispell scroll

Goblin Shaman 150
+ lvl 2
+ chariot

Core

25 orcs 330
+ big 'uns
+ full command
+ shields
+ morks spirit totem

20 night goblins 110
+ bows
+ 2 fanatics

20 night goblins 110
+ bows
+ 2 fanatics

5 wolf riders 65
+ spears

5 wolf riders 65
+ spears

10 savage orcs 100
+ additional choppas

Special

Rock Lobber 75
+ bully

Rock Lobber 75
+ bully

Rock Lobber 75
+ bully

Spear Chukka

Spear Chukka

Rare

Doomdiver

Doomdiver


i want to know what you guys think there weaknesses of this army are so i can sort it out well and truly, it's been in the making for a while now but at the moment i think it's a pretty solid set up, just wanted to know others opinions on where it could go wrong apart from the obvious occurrence of bad luck which I'm cursed with.

Myztyk
14-12-2009, 13:55
I'd switch out your lobbas for chukkas...just more reliable imho.

theworldsnerd
14-12-2009, 14:03
but point for points stone throwers are much more effective, they're more versatile and can target larger areas as well as still being s8 doing d6 wounds on larger targets such as hydras. also with the spear chukka's i've only really got the capability to target knights and large targets against block units the impact is a lot less than with the stone thrower. my guess range is bang on so if i do scatter of a block unit there's still a 1/3 chance i'll still get a hit on the unit. and it's 1/3 chance of getting a hit to begin with. so overall it works out as a 55.5% chance of hitting the unit. also with 8 bolt throwers and 2 doom divers i'd also be struggling for space.

warlord hack'a
15-12-2009, 14:49
stonethrowers can misfire, chukka's don't. But if you do hit with a stonethrower, you get loads of carnage. I would drop one rock lobber for another 2 chukas if you do want to keep that much artillery, just for the reliability of the chukka's to at least hit something once in a while..

The main weaknesses of your list:
1) orc magic is NOT that great when compared to other magic out there, so you are putting a lot of points in magic that might get you nowhere (OTOH if you do get the nice spells off then you can bludgeon the opponent to pulp).
2) you have bad leadership
3) you have very little rank&file, only 3 units with a rank bonus that matters, 2 of which are night gobbo's..
4) the shaman in chariot is great, but lacking other important target's to shoot enemy artillery (and magic) will most likely target them asap. There are four solutions to this problem:
a) charge forward asap. Now with 2nd lvl shamen on the chariots this is not a good idea, not without fast support units (trolls, giant, wyvern, boar boyz, other chariots, bog block of wolves), which you do not have
b) hide. Again: with shamen you want LOS to cast most spells, LOS means the enemy can see you to, and besides, what is the use of a chariot if you are hiding it
c) get more targets for the enemy to shoot. this is basically the same as point a: get more fast moving, hard hitting units.
d) take the shamen out of the chariots..
5) linked to point 4, the main problem with your list is that it is hinging on 2 thoughts: you want to hang back and do ranged damage (LOADS of artillery, max magic, night gobbo archers) and you want to charge forward at the same time (expensive unit of orc big uns, 3 chariots, nice unit of 10 svg orcs with double choppa (I love this unit)). I suggest you drop one of the 2 lines and focus on the other: either remove the chariots and the expensive orc unit for a few units of 25 strong normal orcs with LA, shield and choppa, or drop your magic lords and most artillery and basically rewrite the list into a chariot galore charge home in 3 seconds list. Seeing you basis I suggest you do the first.

One other minor point: get your night gobbo units to 21: takes one more kill by enemy fire to cause panic and trust me, you do not want to check for panic ;-).

theworldsnerd
15-12-2009, 16:24
the chariots are there more to tackle units like plague censors that could seriously damage my units. the big'uns is so i can take the magic banner giving me a total of 11 dispel dice meaning that i'm not very vulnerable to magic. and if the opposing side does have canons then they either have alot of shooting in which case the chariots aren't needed for counter charge, or they don't take them all out in a turn. i would do the gobbo thing but points wise i wouldn't fit. and dropping the points by kicking bully's would make the artiallary low ld. orc magic i am aware isn't great but i have that many people rolling for spells the chance of me getting some of the decent one's isn't so bad. with the orc shaman there is a chance of getting a 6 and 1 which would mean that i'm stuck with a spell which in this army ruins what a bit less than a 1/4 of my points are spent on, but if i swapped him for a gobbo i wouldn't have the ld 8 of him. with his ld 8 i also have a 72.2% chance of passing and there's not many options that are much better.

Malorian
15-12-2009, 16:31
The biggest weakness with the list is what you think is the strength.

Orcs and goblins should stay away from magic when possible.


I don't know what other models you have but I'm sure that a few more blocks to guard those warmachines would serve you better than the mages.

theworldsnerd
15-12-2009, 16:49
i prevent flyers risking flying over as i've got the fanatics which also stop assaults from knights like cold one's. i also have the doom divers to help deal with cavalry. slow moving threats like units of black guard or swordmasters i can deal with with the chariots. and at tournaments you tend to not see big blocks. there's also the wolfs which can march block for a turn when it helps.

drfunfrock
15-12-2009, 22:21
Hmmm not sure i agree with peoples views on the spear chukka's but ignoring that, the list looks powerful, i think i understand the reason for the lots of magic and the largest one is that it was 11 dispell dice - asside from a tzeentch horror list who can cast enough magic to break through that kind of dispell power?

So straight away he looks safe from Magic, combat? well fanatics are the bane of all things expensive like the knights as said but how do you deal with a unit of chaos warriors? oh yeah the rock lobbers, maxium of 21 hits on small bases cant remember the large ones - thats hard to withstand when your movement 4.

Now people said his chariots are going to get blown up by cannons, if they do i think he may cry.... or think oh no thats 60 points gone, best hop into a unit for safety, other scenario, he hits the wizard damn thats a few more points gone, on the plus side ive still got a chariot to do some damage. the chariots arent a run forward and charge, they're a counter charge, finish off the units that get within charge distance, menace the flyers that are considering a warmachine or 2, not many fast cav units can afford to place themselves for a turn 2 charge on warmachines when 3 chariots stare at them no matter who's riding them.

IMHO the only problem this army has is leadership, id change the great shaman for an Orc Warboss, black orc perhaps, depends on your points, or maybe even Gordban ironc claw, 18" Ld10 would vastly improve your ld problem.

It looks like a good well rounded list, able to take everything, but its not invincible, aside from armies tooled and designed to destroy this, off the top of my head, id say a scragg army or most daemon armies would make you struggle, oh skaven if they took stormbanner - ( OT why is one magic banner so good?) otherwise just stand there with a sign saying come and have a go if you think your hard enough.

warlord hack'a
16-12-2009, 09:13
OK I am oinly being critical here to help you improve the list, nothing personal. That settled, here are again a few things to ponder:
I suggest you set up a table with a standard scenery layout (hill on both sides is often seen, as is a wood somewhere on the side), so not as scenery full as tournament tables tend to come, and then deploy your force. What I think you will see are a number of interconnected issues. You will have trouble covering for all your warmachines. You simply have too few units to protect those 7 machines. Your 4 fanatics will not be able to cover the whole table, only one fast cav unit on each flank makes it rather weak and if you put your chariots on the flank as flank protectors then your 'center' is ripe to be charged by first a fanatic pulling decoy, and then a unit of hard hitters. So you have to space your chariots in between your blocks, leaving the flanks weak. Since you have only 8 deployment choices most enemies will outdeploy you, meaning they can put some weight on one flank and start overrunning you from there. A unit of enemy flyers placed last will have no problem flying around your fanatic protection and start eating your warmachines. If you want to prevent this you have to condense your machines into a smaller area, limiting their firing potential. Enemy artillery, having nothing better to shoot at, will target your chariots and will take one or two out, weakening further the flank where they outdeployed you already to start with. They do not need loads of shooting for this, just one or 2 cannons or even bolt throwers (a wolf chariot after all only has T4 and 3 wounds) are a serious threat. And although 12 casting dice are nice most enemies out there pack a fair load of dispel dice themselves (to protect against those nice VC and deamon armies), miscasting is very deadly for you and O&G simply do not have those nice magic enhancing magic items that make magic really dangerous.

With 5 artillery dice per round you also have a fair chance of misfiring once per round, not a nice prospect. BUt maybe you are more lucky with rock lobebrs and doom divers than I am.. Go try it out as you seem set on this list anyway, but do let us know how you fared.

warlord hack'a
16-12-2009, 09:31
and a few other things: a single wolf chariots with shaman in it will bounce from an enemy infantry block at full strength, so you will need to charge with 2 chariots to have a bigger chance of winning. If you do this the enemy might just as well flee, leaving your 2 charitos ripe to be counter charged.

If you want to use the chariots to counter charge enemy units in your turn then you assume that the enemy on the turn they charge will not break you, not very likely seeing as you only have Ld 8, no BSB and only one unit that even stands a chance to receive a charge to begin with. Also you assume that the enemy by then has not taken out, blocked or charged your chariots themselves. And you do not really have the luxury of running away as a charge reaction with the gobbo's as they will not stop running, the svg orcs aren't even allowed to flee and the big uns, well tricky to flee with the only true CC unit you have. You can't flee with the charitos either as they will run of the board in no time and most likely hit a warmachine on the way out.

Another point: what happens to your 4 fanatics in your turn after the turn they are released? You have a few nice and juicy chariots roundabout in that area. Fanatics are not as powerful anymore as they used to be, since they lost their 'No armour save allowed ability', but their -3 on save is still good enough to take out lightly armoured troups, such as wolf chariots, orcs and gobbo's.

Jind_Singh
16-12-2009, 17:16
yeah, I'd be worried about the lack of punch the list has - even a unit of 5 squig Hoppers would be great to protect your warmachines - I use mine in the following way
They bounce to the left 3D6
They bounce to the right 3D6

And they keep going from left to right until something inches towards the artillary - then its action stations and off they go.
But if theres no threats (either they dont show up or I kill them) then they go forth to harras the enemy.

Yesterday they had no war machines to protect (playing Vamps who had no fell bats) so they bounced down a flank towards a lone vamp who deployed as a scout.
They ran into him and munched him up - he's dead.
Then they turned around next turn and munched 5 direwolves trying to sneak around them.
Then they bounced into some woods
Then they munched another 5 direwolves on the other side of the woods
Then they rear charged 4 black Knights who had charged my Giant, and killed 2 of them, and gave me a nice +2 rear bonus.

All this for 5 Squig Hoppers....

I'd be inclined to drop the big'uns upgrade and grab a Black Orc boss BSB mounted on a boar for a 3+ armour save. Give him the spirit totem, now you have your magic defence AND a great plus one for BSB combat res.
I actually put my BSB in a unit of Night gobbos, 30 strong, netters, full command, 2 fanatics, as that unit shouldnt have to get into combat.
This leaves me free to rampage with the orcs - as you might find yourself timid with the Big Uns - as they are your magic defense unit so combat will reduce their effectivness.

drfunfrock
17-12-2009, 23:01
have you had any games with this list yet? any feedback to give? its all very well on paper and on the net, but untill you've had some real gaming experience :P...

drfunfrock
17-12-2009, 23:28
Looking at your list, and wanting to keep with your theme, you want a large amount of anti magic, as well as devestating shooting, with a bit of a counter charge, and taking into account what others have said

How about this:

Hero's

Black Orc Warboss 190
+ heavy armour
+ boar
+ enchanted shield

Black Orc Bigboss 180
+ heavy armour
+ boar
+ battle standard
+ morks spirit totem

Goblin Shaman 140
+ lvl 1
+ chariot
+ dispell scroll

Goblin Shaman 115
+ lvl 1
+ chariot

Core

25 orcs 180
+ full command
+ shields

25 orcs 180
+ full command
+ shields

21 night goblins 113
+ bows
+ 2 fanatics

21 night goblins 113
+ bows
+ 2 fanatics

5 wolf riders 65
+ spears

5 wolf riders 65
+ spears

10 savage orcs 100
+ additional choppas

10 savage orcs 100
+ additional choppas

Special

Rock Lobber 75
+ bully

Rock Lobber 75
+ bully

Rock Lobber 75
+ bully

Spear Chukka

Spear Chukka

Rare

Doomdiver

Doomdiver

Thats got a couple more block units to bulk out your army abit more still has decent anti magic 7 dice is more than some armies can get, and you have a scroll to stop that 1 spell of the game you do not want cast. You've got the leadership now, and your no longer stuck with only gaining 2 dispell dice after they kill 6 big'uns...

what you guys think?

warlord hack'a
18-12-2009, 08:00
I Think you need to post this list in your own topic ;-).

ninjaska
18-12-2009, 09:16
Oi,
theworldsnerd you're absolutely genius. I wouldn't change anything in your list.
Just side note, remember to put your Orc Shaman to Lobba, then you will have US 5, so you can claim quarters. Moreover, if canon destroys your goblin chariot, shaman still can hide in Lobba.

drfunfrock
18-12-2009, 15:44
sorry didnt mean that to be a new list, meant it as an alteration of his own, as he wanted advice on his list, was wandering what he thought

theworldsnerd
23-12-2009, 09:54
thanks for that post drfunrock, i think that your revised list of mine has some potential over mine. i'll try using it after i get my first game with my list.

Diddycom
23-12-2009, 21:23
I think just two more defensive wizards is best

theworldsnerd
03-01-2010, 00:30
how many dispel dice would you say is enough dispel dice though? i don't want to leave myself weak.

Jind_Singh
03-01-2010, 09:17
I take max 8 for O & G - it works out well

2 for showing up
1 for staff of sneaky stealing
1 for level 1
1 for level 1
3 for morks totem

8! Plenty good - and the 3rd character is warboss, the 4th is BSB. With regards to your list - its workable as I find so long as you have a basic plan for your greenies it'll generally do its thing.

Evern considered this as a build for a warboss - 2 days ago he challanged a high elf lord on dragon and butchered him! He's also butchered Vlad von carstien, and other notable lords

Black Orc Warboss, boar, heavy armour, enchanted shield, boss at, akrit axe, iron gnashas........1 + save, 5+ ward, re-roll attacks every round with killing blow!! :D He's nasty as an orc can be!
Black orc BSB, boar, heavy armour, morks totem
Shaman, staff of stealing, chariot
shaman, 2 scrolls, chariot

The rest would be to whatever tune you build the army - personally i dont bother with spears on the wolves, just bows - more annoying and you kill more. A few days ago a unit fo 5 spiders with bos killed 4 white lions over 2 turns - the bows cost me just 5pts for the unit, each model i killed was over 10pts!