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View Full Version : Lizardmen 2250, carnosaur, saurus heavy, lots of infantry!



happy_doctor
14-12-2009, 14:54
Hello once more, fellow warseers!

I've been a lizardmen player ever since the 5th edition boxed set came out and I picked the plastic saurus and skinks as my share of the box we bought with my brother. Over the course of the 6th edition, I played countless games with them, won tourneys and campaigns and -more importantly- enjoyed myself very much!

When the 7th edition book was released, let's say I was not impressed; even though my army had become better and cheaper, I couldn't find something exciting upon which to base my army. Since that day, I haven't touched my oldest army, which gathers dust in its boxes.

Today, however, I came up with the following innovative idea:

HEROES:
-Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur, LA, Piranha Blade, Shield of the Mirrored Pool, Wardrums of Xahutek
-Skink Chief, BSB, LA, Shield, extra Hand Weapon, Skavenpelt Banner

CORE:
-15 Saurus Warriors, Standard, Musician, Spears
-15 Saurus Warriors, Standard, Musician, Spears
-15 Saurus Warriors, Standard, Musician, Spears
-10 Skink Cohort, Musician
-10 Skink Cohort, Musician
-10 Skink Cohort, Musician
-3 Jungle Swarms
-3 Jungle Swarms

SPECIAL:
-5 Saurus Cavalry
-12 Saurus Temple Guard, Standard, Champion, Plaque of Dominion, Curse-charm of Tepok
-3 Terradons
-3 Terradons

Total: 2250 points sharp

So an infantry list, with a decent amount of saurus warriors, lotes of redirectors, good warmachine hunting capabilities in the form of terradons and swarms, plus a cheap trick:

The Skavenpelt Standard!

I spent some time thinking how to put it to good use, then it dawned to me; it can affect more than one unit at a time, giving me the possibility of frenzying all my saurus units over the course of a few turns! Once a unit is frenzied, it cannot lose it unless it's beaten in combat. Thus, starting the BSB in the temple guard and moving him from one unit to the other, I can have 4 frenzied saurus units by the end of turn 3!

I'm hoping the skinks and terradons will help keep the frenzied troops in line. Frenzied saurus are a sight for sore eyes, especially when armed with spears! (36 attacks with s4, anyone?)

A few more words on the army:
- The oldblood is designed to be fast, virtually immune to any magic missiles that might endanger the life of the mount, and able to deal a lot of damage against monsters, characters and ogre-sized infantry. Thanks to the wardrums, it should be able to move behind cover most of the time, until warmachines are dealt with. In the meantime, it can threaten pathways and keep enemy heavy-hitters honest.

-The temple guard: While I understand that fielding them without the slann might seem a bit daft, I have my reasons. a) they are a great-looking unit that I'm looking forward to painting someday. b) They offer a means of magic defense in the form of the remarkable Plaque of Dominion; I'm hoping to catch people off guard with it, causing trouble to tzeentch sorcerer lords and daemon horrors alike. When a mage becomes stupid, he not only loses his ability to cast spells, but also makes his unit stumble forward and renders them unable to declare any other charge reaction than Hold. c) Frenzy means that they'll be getting 3 ws4 s5 attacks each, making them as powerful as chaos warriors!

-Jungle Swarms: A multi-purpose unit in this army, keeping flyers at bay, chasing off skirmishers, occupying terrain features, mage-hunting, warmachine-hunting, even pinning a unit in place for a turn if need be. The best 135 points one can spend in a lizardmen army in my humble opinion.

So, there you have it! Questions to follow:

1)How would you rate the army in terms of power?
2)Would you enjoy playing against it?
3)Did you find any obvious flaws/weaknesses in the build, and if yes, how would you mitigate them?
4)Do you think that using the Skavenpelt banner in the way described is pushing the rules? Would you object to it, given the rest of the army?

Please answer the poll on your way out, I'd like to know what your thoughts are on the skavenpelt banner. (haven't seen anyone use it like this, that's why)

Thanks and cheers,

Happy_doctor

Tauren
14-12-2009, 15:11
I want to hear more about this army... I personally want to run a "carnosaur" infantry list myself, I don't like the idea of slann. I would personally lower the US of the saurus down to 10 and run it MSU style. I want to ask, would your points on the temple guard be spent elsewhere better? I like seeing the saurus cav in there.

Let me know how it runs, this is a tactical army not one that relies on magical tricks and is also very pretty on the table top. I personally would add a bit of lizardman shooting to round out the list though. Looks nice overall. My only concern is still the lack of anti-magic which could hurt, but its possible...

From a future lizardman player, best of luck, I'll be watching.

N810
14-12-2009, 15:18
Sadly The skaven pelt banner can only be held by a skink. :(
(chief or priest)


Opps disregard I just noticed you had a chief carying it...
I thought you had it on the oldblood... (I have seen this mistake before)

One thing to watch out for is that a frenzied chief bait charge out of a saurus unit
if there is an enemy in range... this is especialy dangerous since he has a much greater
charge range... I would consider placing a screen in front of him in those cases...

warhawk95
14-12-2009, 16:22
The combo you are refering to is illegal. The skaven pelt banner says the unit is subject t frenzy. Therefore as long as the BSB is in the unit they are subject to it, or they gain the bonus of frenzy. Once he leaves the unit the unit looses frenzy. Why? because the banner doesnt say the unit gains the frenzy rule. by not having the word rule in their it means the unit must have the BSB to give the unit frenzy. Basically what Im saying is the frenzy power is inside the banner, and the banner does not magically give the unit its power. So in order for he unit to stay frenzy they must have the banner.

As for the army I would say that is going to struggle with no magic defense. I think you should drop the temple guard, or a unit of saurus and atleast get a skink caddy. I wouldnt mind playing against it at all. Its not a tough list, the carnasaur could be kit out better IMO. If I were to do it I would go with something like Blade of realties and amulet of itzl or blade of revered tzuki and maiming shield. The mirrored shield is nice and I might switch it out for the maiming shield I would play test both. But atleast give him one of the 50+ blades they are both really good. And a caddy, again drop sarus/TG for it.

Bard Harlock
14-12-2009, 17:02
No skink skirmishers? I know, I know, infantry list. Even infantry send out guys on point to scout ahead. As for the rest, I like your reasoning well enough to want to know how it does when you play it.

Dudeguy1235
14-12-2009, 20:45
You have literally no magic defense. : / That may cause some issues.

Foegnasher
14-12-2009, 20:51
i ran a carnasaur/oldblood, w/ enchanted shield, BoR
Priest, lvl 2, dispel scroll, and dice storage item, on a EoTG
chief, warspear stegadon

2 x 18 saurus, spears, fc. (6 x 3)
2 x 11 skink skirmishers
2 x 3 terradons
5 cold one cav, mu.

and it kicked ass. problem was, my opponents didn't seem to have much fun getting raped repeatedly by the scaley ones. at a tournament, i went 3-1-1, and still finished in the bottom 1/3, thanks mostly to my comp.

happy_doctor
15-12-2009, 16:42
First of all, thanks for taking the time to reply, guys! It is much appreciated.


I want to hear more about this army... I personally want to run a "carnosaur" infantry list myself, I don't like the idea of slann. I would personally lower the US of the saurus down to 10 and run it MSU style. I want to ask, would your points on the temple guard be spent elsewhere better? I like seeing the saurus cav in there.

I'll be sure to notify you on the results I get with this army and how it works. Now, while the MSU saurus is powerful thanks to the spears, by lowering the saurus units to 10 I make them far more susceptible to fear and it only takes a couple of casualties for them to start losing power. Plus, the skink BSB can only reliably frenzy 3 or 4 units before they see combat, which means that the current set up of 4 infantry units should be enough.
The temple guard are a huge points sink, I'll give you that. Running them down gives the enemy nearly 400 points, something that is not entirely reflected by their staying power. I have an alternative solution which I'll mention later, but due to modelling reasons I'd like to find a way to keep this elite unit in the army.


One thing to watch out for is that a frenzied chief bait charge out of a saurus unit if there is an enemy in range... this is especialy dangerous since he has a much greater charge range... I would consider placing a screen in front of him in those cases...
Sound piece of advice there, N810. Screening the saurus units and the frenzied skink is the purpose of the 3 skink cohorts. I had a game last night and it worked out just fine; plus, the skink chief can handle enemy rank and file quite well with his 5 attacks, just not on his own.


The combo you are refering to is illegal.
While I understand your explanation of the rules and the logic behind it, the rules in the LM book don't support your statement; they mention that "the unit is frenzied until it loses a round of combat", so my interpretation is at least as "correct" as yours. Don't get me wrong, I realise it's a bit shady. However, it's not over the top, is actually less wrong that several FAQ'ed things in warhammer (namely s7 rending stars, pendant of khaeleth not failing on a "1", dragon armour giving immunity to flaming attacks to the dragon beneath the rider etc.) and requires me to make a huge concession by investing in a frail skink character on foot who has non-existent protection, can be baited fairly easily and can't fight to save his life. (as opposed to the 0+ save, saurus scar-veteran with cold one and piranha blade)
In any case, I don't want this to turn into a rules argument, hence the poll. :)


As for the army *snip* But atleast give him one of the 50+ blades they are both really good. And a caddy, again drop sarus/TG for it.
Thanks for the info, I took it into account (see below). Concerning the Oldblood, getting an expensive blade would mean losing the "always march" capability, which gives him some maneuverability and prevents some of the redirecting. I might be tempted to swap his piranha blade for an even cheaper weapon, maybe a sword of might? Given that the carnosaur already causes d3 wounds, is the piranha blade overkill?


No skink skirmishers? *snip* As for the rest, I like your reasoning well enough to want to know how it does when you play it.
Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep you posted! I couldn't find room for skink skirmishers, I am hoping the swarms and terradons will fulfill the same roles. Plus, having no shooting to rely on forces me to think tactically and play agressively. And that's something I enjoy very much!

If the swarms don't work out as I wish them to, I'll look into dropping one unit and buying 2 units of skirmishers instead.

You have literally no magic defense. : / That may cause some issues.
I notice this is the most evident flaw of the list, I've taken it into account and will post a new version of the list for evaluation under the comments. Nevertheless, I still think that the Plaque of Dominion can protect me better than, say, 3 dice and 2 scrolls. Additionally, it may give me a tactical advantage a scroll caddy couldn't provide.

For the past year or so I've played quite a few games with no "active" magic defense (so just the 2 dice and no scrolls) and have come up with the conclusion that -barring special circumstances- if this is taken into account when building the list, then 8 or 9 power dice won't hurt too much.


i ran a carnasaur/oldblood, w/ enchanted shield, BoR
Priest, lvl 2, dispel scroll, and dice storage item, on a EoTG
chief, warspear stegadon

2 x 18 saurus, spears, fc. (6 x 3)
2 x 11 skink skirmishers
2 x 3 terradons
5 cold one cav, mu.


Seems like a very powerful list, foegnasher. The design principle is totally different, though. You had: 2 stegadons (and the most powerful builds you could field, actually), a killer oldblood and just a couple of saurus units. I can see why you were hit that hard in composition scoring.
The list I posted wants to make use of the carnosaur, lots of saurus warriors and infantry in general, the skavenpelt standard and be different and innovative at the same time.
Any thoughts on the list as posted, based on your experience with the lizards?

*****************************UPDATE*************** ********

I played my first game with the list yesterday. I faced a skaven army which had the following:
Warlord on warlitter, Warplock Augmented Blade, RIval-hide Talisman and shield
Plague Priest, Plague Furnace, Flail, Foul Pendant
Plague Priest, Great Pox Rat, Flail, 2xScrolls
2x30 Clanrats, Shields, FC, Poisoned Wind Mortar
3x25 Slaves, musician
3x20 Giant Rats/3 Packmasters
21 Plague Monks, FC, Storm Banner
2x7 Plague Censer Bearers
7 Gutter Runners, poisoned weapons
2x Warp Lightning Cannons

A brief account of the game:
-I forgot carnosaur is no longer a large target and can now be hidden from sight, so it spent 4 turns hidden behind a house while my swarms dealt with the cannons.
-The storm banner raged for 4 turns, meaning that the terradons could not perform any of their roles in baiting, march-blocking, bombing plague censers or warmachine hunting.
-Jungle Swarms performed solidly, one unit killing 2 cannons and pinning a clanrat unit into place for the saurus to flank charge it. The other unit had to charge a unit of slaves frontally, remaining with 1 wound when the dust settled. They did keep some PCB's at bay, though.
-Frenzied saurus warriors are great, although I need to get used to the fact that they can't flee and have to overrun/pursue after a successful combat. My opponent made good use of his slaves and rats, getting a unit of saurus and the temple guard into awkward positions to be flank charged by his plague furnace and general. Still, the Temple guard killed skaven by the dozens, resisted a flank charge from the plague furnace unit and only fled the next turn due to a misconception of the rules (my opponent thought the Furnace causes Terror, which it doesn't - so they had to auto-break after losing the battle by one)
-The skink chief and 4 saurus surviving a barrage from the WLC proved their worth by baiting the plague priest, beating him in combat, pursuing into a full unit of giant rats and slaughtering them. Later in the game the skink chief finished off the rallied PP on the pox rat and then helped deal with one unit of clanrats. Not bad, for a skink! (hatred against skaven helped a lot!)
-Skink Cohorts did what they are made for, keeping the skaven baiters honest for as long as they could. They protected the skink chief from being baited early on and a unit even survived the battle.
-Saurus Cavalry beat some PCB's into submission, but later I performed a tactical blunder in the last turn of the game, charging the remaining 3 cavalry into a full ranked unit of clanrats, just for fun. That move cost me 175 points for the unit, plus 100 points for the table quarter they were occupying, costing me the victory. I'll have to be more careful with them next time.

All in all, the game ended in a Draw in my favor, which I'm very happy with! I have no experience with this army and the skaven horde seemed like a bad match-up. The skaven player is a veteran, who had some bits of bad luck with his plague furnace at critical moments (I'd like to think that these were mitigated by the fact that he was lucky to never blow up any of his stuff with a misfire and played the Plague Furnace as terror causing).

In short, a positive test for the list!

What I noticed is that the temple guard unit, while very powerful, is too much of a points sink. So I came up with modified version of the list that adressed both the magic defense and the cost of the TG:

LIZARDMEN LIST 2250 POINTS, V1.1

HEROES:
-Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur, LA, Piranha Blade, Shield of the Mirrored Pool, Wardrums of Xahutek
-Skink Chief, BSB, LA, Shield, extra Hand Weapon, Skavenpelt Banner
-Skink Priest, lvl1, Dispel Scroll, Diadem of Power

CORE:
-14 Saurus Warriors, Standard, Musician, Spears
-14 Saurus Warriors, Standard, Musician, Spears
-15 Saurus Warriors, Standard, Musician, Spears
-10 Skink Cohort, Musician
-10 Skink Cohort, Musician
-10 Skink Cohort, Musician
-3 Jungle Swarms
-3 Jungle Swarms

SPECIAL:
-5 Saurus Cavalry
-12 Saurus Temple Guard, Musician
-3 Terradons
-3 Terradons

So now I get a solid magic defense with 5 dice and a scroll, at the expense of the banner upgrade for the TG and the hidden trick that's Plaque of Dominion. What's more, the TG now only cost 199 points, meaning I can even sacrifice them if need be.

It's not as hardcore as the first list, but it might work better than before

What do you think? Better/worse and why?

Keep the comments coming, I appreciate them!

warhawk95
15-12-2009, 17:09
Your magic set up is much better, im not a big fan of scrolls, find them dull so one is all you need. Do not really see the point in the temple guard with no slann. for 4 points more points (with spears) you gain 1 WS, +1 S, and +1 I (which really does nothing). As oppose to loosin out on a bunch of attacks. If you made those TG some saurus you would be gaining a whole other unit of ranked skinks, or another terradon. Either way I know I would take 10 skinks and 12 saurus vs 12 TG with no slann. I think you should drop them and either get 12 saurus with shields, and boost your terradons up. Or you can drop them all together, boost the terradons and make some skinks skrimishers.

N810
15-12-2009, 17:40
Yea the second list looks more refined... altoh the first wasn't all that bad... Too bad you didn't get yo use your terradons.. they are a pretty fun unit. :)

happy_doctor
17-12-2009, 16:20
Thanks again for the replies, guys!

I'll be trying both of these lists out, to see which one fits my style best. The temple guard I'd like to keep, as they are some fine looking models. With frenzy they are worth it, makes their halberds worthwhile. So, while you get less attacks, you have a strength of 5 which is a nice alternative. Plus, it keeps the list from being too repetitive.

I'd like to hear more thoughts on the army concept, so if you're reading this and haven't replied, please take the time to do so!

PS: Would anyone be interested in reading battle reports starring this army? If yes, give a shout. I'll try to write something up.

Cheers,

Happy_doctor

Rawne
17-12-2009, 16:55
yeah id like to read the battle reports, me and some friends (mainly 40k, necromunda player) has started WH and each making 1500pt armies, 1 of those is lizardmen, so would be nice to read up on tactics u guys use and such lol