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Aristocrap
14-12-2009, 19:24
I was considering picking up CSM, and I'd like to use them for competitive play. That being said, I wanted to stick to one particular Chaos God, rather than a polytheistic force. I'm deciding between Nurgle and Slaanesh, my two favorites in 40k. Which one do you feel is generally more competitive?

Lord Malorne
14-12-2009, 19:25
Nurgle, thread over.

Lord Malornecrap

Scarecrow808
14-12-2009, 19:33
agreed nurgle would be your best option, the specialist units have T5 and Feel No Pain (typhus and Plague Marines)

Aristocrap
14-12-2009, 19:41
Nurgle, thread over.

Lord Malornecrap

Yeah, well that doesn't help me much. How about some examples?

@Scarecrow808: Thanks for actually posting useful info. How would you reccomend laying-out a Nurgle-themed list?

Lord Malorne
14-12-2009, 19:46
If your post was 'help me make a themed CSM list with the one you think is the better god' then I would have posted more. You did not so I did not.

Lord Malornecrap

Aristocrap
14-12-2009, 19:52
Well I didn't want a whole list, per say, but just giving your input without any additional reasoning isn't worth much.

Scarecrow808
14-12-2009, 19:56
well, actually i would be honoured, hmmm, let me see,
Hq: either use Typhus or use a Termintor Sorceror with familiar (that way you get 2 psychic powere rather than one) or if you dont like either of those or if you have the $ get a Daemon prince of nurgle.
Elites: 1 squad of 5 chosen with an icon or nurgle, it works for me,
Troops: 4 units of 7 plague marines ALL with a champion, plasma guns-2, and rhino's
Fast Attack: none
Heavy Support: Defiler without upgrades, so thats a battle cannon, heavy flamer, and a reaper autocannon.
a Predator armed with lascannon turret, and heavy bolter sponsons,
and i always use a unit of lesser daemons.

if you would like more detailed help, PM me

baphomael
14-12-2009, 20:00
I'd say Slaanesh. Just because, id say, its more underepresented in mono-god forces, and who cant resist the god of sex, drugs and rock 'n roll with a legion of guys wailing so hard on guitar-guns that people's heads asplode!

Aristocrap
14-12-2009, 20:00
@Scarecrow808: I see. What about Vindis and Oblits? People seem to like using them in their HS slots. I've heard that Oblits are very versatile and can fill in what the rest of your army has trouble with.
From what I've read, Termies are better than Chosen for most tasks, though I'll need to study up on the ma bit more.
Your suggestions are helpful, and give me a basic understanding of what a CSM list might look like.

@baphomael: Heh, I must admit that I really do like the appearance of Noise Marines. Slaanesh has always been my other top favorite God.

Vedar
14-12-2009, 20:12
Most people say Nurgle because Nurgle units are just plain harder to kill.

Plague marines are cheaper than Noise marines (with sonic weapon upgrade, which they need to make them worth taking.)

Plague marines are T(5) and have feel no pain which makes them very hard to kill and possibly the best troops choice in the game.

Noise marines can be good as well, but die much more easily and while having possible better firepower (sonic weapons) is not as useful as Plague marines ability to hardly ever die.

Typhus I like better than Lucius but really both are not worth taking as they die to a powerfist to the face.

Daemon Princes most people (me) use Tzeentch for the 4+ save or Nurgle for the T6. The Slaanesh I6 is not worth it most of the time as quite often I5 is good enough.

Lash is pretty powerful for Slaanesh Princes but quite often being T5 and 5+ INV they can die pretty quick.

So in short
Nurgle troops and HQ are strong.
Slaanesh troops and HQ are situational and harder to keep alive.

Aristocrap
14-12-2009, 20:16
That's very helpful, thanks!
Are there any particular ways to get around Slannesh troops' downfalls?
It sounds like Plauge Marines would be a better choice for new CSM players such as myself.

Corpse
14-12-2009, 20:24
Scale all four of the marines in everything.

Offense, defense (all situations, against everything possible)
Damage, range requirements for that damage, tactical uses and drawbacks.

You will find Noise Marines and Thousand Sons more useful in the long run then predictable plague marines and especially berzerkers.

Depends on what list you run. Most firepower you will face against most given armies is 12" and thats what the three of the four units do their best in. Only one that does not face rapid fire doom on most occasions (that you do well keeping them out of 18", thats 6" move and 12" range for rapid fire) are 24" sonic blaster noise marines.

Feel no pain is a 50% advantage on top of the armor save. That's nullified when you face double the shots you normally face. Catch what I mean here? When you have range, you have a unique advantage over roughly 80% of all troops you face up against.

4 bolter shots = 3 heavy bolter shots, instead of the range and AP, there is little difference beyond being able to ding AV11 and penetrate AV10. That's a troop choice that can outshoot heavy bolter devistators of equal points value when shooting at guard, gaunts, etc...

Noise marines are great for offense, die like marines on defense. Keep them in cover, or cover them with a rhino and force the enemy to think twice when wasting lascannon shots trying to kill a 4+ cover save marine unit. (a cover save thats harder to get plague marines into damaging range to do, because they need to be closer)

I would rather you focus on what units outside troops that you want, so that we can tell you what cult units are best with what you have selected.

Tactics/tactica's in my signature.

Archangel_Ruined
14-12-2009, 20:28
Nurgle bikers are filthy special weapon delivery systems, power armour, toughness 6 and the ability to turbo boost mean they can outflank most armies with impunity, if you stay out of charge range small arms fire isn't a massive worry.

Lord Inquisitor
14-12-2009, 20:43
Plague marines are cheaper than Noise marines (with sonic weapon upgrade, which they need to make them worth taking.)
With a great deal of experience, I've come to appreciate Noise Marines with bolters. While the sonic weapons give them versetility, if a squad is designed to get close to the enemy (i.e. it has a Doom Siren!) in a rhino then it really isn't worth buying the sonic blasters. If you disembark from a Rhino, you can't assault and sonic blasters would have only 2 shots each anyway - bolters are just as good if you disembark within 12".


Typhus I like better than Lucius but really both are not worth taking as they die to a powerfist to the face.
Lucius is expensive, but what he gives you is two Doom Sirens in a squad. Against a reasonably bunched up enemy, it's pretty easy to get around 15 S5 AP3 hits on an enemy squad. Support that with a Lash sorcerer or prince, and you can easily vapourise a marine squad without even disembarking from your Rhino.

Overall, to answer the OP:

Plague Marines are much easier to use and can take meltaguns. They're just a bit too cheap for what they do. Nurgle Daemon Princes are solid (due to T6) and if you stick to Nurgle, you'll have a solid army that noone is likely to complain about it.

Noise Marines are fairly pointed and with a bit of practice are awesome on the tabletop. The trick is not to use them as a fire support unit (many people just sit on a hill and shoot) but use them dynamically with a Rhino - they are better than Plague Marines offensively both in combat and shooting - they're just far more fragile so you have to use them right. Taking a pure-slaanesh army gives you a little more of an excuse to use the dreaded Lash and combined with Doom Sirens and Blastmasters it can be pretty obscene. Noise Marines can't take meltaguns so you need some oblits or melta terminators to do your tank-hunting.

Overall, both lists can work, be competitive and won't annoy your opponents as much as the usual Lash+PM+Oblit stereotype. So what it comes down to is - which do you like the look and background for? Do you want to paint dirty green or hot pink?

Archangel_Ruined
14-12-2009, 20:58
Dirty green or hot pink? Looking at your post I'd say you might be biased... Very good points in defence of noise marines though, defilers can add much needed fire support and AT capability to a pink army too (battlecannon for infantry, fleeting s10 CC attacks for armour, they're scary things...)

Ozendorph
14-12-2009, 21:13
Hope the OP doesn't mind, but I thought I'd ask what peoples' perception is of Khorne-themed CSM these days (I was hoping to see some Khorne comments when I read the thread title). Just judging by the few mentions of Berserkers, it doesn't sound like they're too respected, from a competitive standpoint?

Aristocrap
14-12-2009, 21:17
Hmm... Personally, I think I'd have more fun painting pink and bright, solid colors, as I'm better at that than dirty washes and such. Additionally, I'm not the best with Greenstuff. I like the ornate, fancy look of some Slaanesh Marines too.

As for gaming, I need to go and get the current CSM Codex, as I only have the previous edition for some reason. But from what I know about CSM in 5th Ed, I think I'd enjoy fielding units like termies, DPs, Lords in smaller games, Oblits perhaps, Defiler(s), and maybe Vindis.

Archangel_Ruined
14-12-2009, 21:20
Personally I find standard chaos marines with the mark of khorne more useful than bezerkers. They lose furious charge but gain rapid fire and special weapons, I find in most situations a normal marine is perfectly adequate in combat which leads me to think bezerkers are either overkill or useless in many situations.

Ozendorph
14-12-2009, 21:23
Personally I find standard chaos marines with the mark of khorne more useful than bezerkers. They lose furious charge but gain rapid fire and special weapons, I find in most situations a normal marine is perfectly adequate in combat which leads me to think bezerkers are either overkill or useless in many situations.

What do you think of Chosen given the MoK and tooled up for CC? Are they viable when compared to the other Elite choices or not so much? Thanks

Archangel_Ruined
14-12-2009, 21:35
They start a lot closer to the enemy, that's always a good start. They get very expensive very quickly though, and many people think they make better tank hunters than close combat monsters. A similar option that can achieve both aims quite well are raptors, they're quicker which can make all the difference.

Ozendorph
14-12-2009, 21:38
Thanks for the thoughts. I'm kicking around ideas for our next "paint and play" league and I love the look of khornate models, but I don't want to go in with a completely overmatched army (been down that road already)

Aristocrap
14-12-2009, 21:39
Ozendorph, you thread hijacker! :p

Anyhow, what would you suggest I do/start with from my previous post?

Ozendorph
14-12-2009, 21:51
Ozendorph, you thread hijacker! :p

Anyhow, what would you suggest I do/start with from my previous post?

Yeah sorry about that. I just saw the thread title and said "hey, somebody already made the thread for me" ;)


Given the choice between Nurgle and Slaanesh, personally I'd go with Grampa every time. Reasons:

1. Plague Marines are ridiculously awesome. Throw a couple meltas in there and they're world-class objective squatters.

2. MoN termies are terrifying. A friend of mine uses them with an attached sorcerer, and while they're expensive they never seem to disappoint.

3. The models are great and converting Nurgle units is a blast.

I'd be using Nurgle for the PnP league except there's already an abundance of Nurgle players in our group. In fact all the Chaos Marine players I know field either undivided, Nurgle, or both.

Archangel_Ruined
14-12-2009, 21:55
If it's pink marines you want I'd go with a few squads of noise marines in rhinos, something with a lash (flying daemon prince is good but will be a prime target) and a couple of defilers with the extra cc weapons as I find the battle cannon is the only gun you'll need when you're not fleeting towards squishy things. A squad of chosen tooled up with combi meltas can be pretty useful if you can find the points, just don't expect them to survive many games. Tactics wise your troops are initiative 5 so you can hop out of the rhinos, being sure to use them as cover from everything you're not about to kill, and open fire in relative safety, whatever you don't kill that turn will probably charge you (who says 40k is a predictable game?) and you'll strike first and smash their faces in. Just use the mobility to avoid getting swamped, with fleeting defilers, flying MC's and mechanised infantry you should be the player deciding who fights what and where.

Aristocrap
14-12-2009, 22:03
Thanks for the tips! I think I just might go with a Slaanesh army. Nurgle CSM armies are just too common nowadays and I want to deviate a bit from those usual lists. I'm sure I'll find Noise Marines a blast to paint, seeing as I've done a few in my earlier days. I really appreciate your help! As a side note, how would suggest equipping Noise Marines for this sort of work? It seems that they'll be very expensive if I tool them up for both CC and with sonic weapons.

partyharvey
14-12-2009, 23:19
I suggest you use the 5th chaos God, Malal!


Hq: either use Hoak in Terminator Armor w/ Daemon Renderer sword

or use a Terminator Sorcerer with familiar (that way you get 2 psychic powers rather than one)
for powers I’d take ‘warp fried chicken’ against tzeench and ‘I look damn fine in this armor’ to nullify slaanesh

or if you don’t like either of those and if you have the money get an Incarnation of Malal, and arm him with ‘huge axe of daemon smiting’ and ‘whip of Humiliation’, then you can force those pesky daemon princes to flee, can you say ‘NAME TOBY, Daemon!


HQ squad- take hardened vets with ‘hard ass’ upgrade.
This will allow your apothecary to use a sanitation sprayer and protect you from Nurgle rot

A librarian and a chappy all tooled up

and of course the chapter banner declaring ‘we’ll fight all you b*%^&#s’
( the WFAYB banner gives you the ‘damn those dudes are crazy’ bonus roll against the morale of loyalist units,
and the ‘Those muthas is gonna kill us’ bonus roll against the morale of chaos units)

Elites: 1 squad of 5 Champions of Malal with an icon of Malal
Icon allows ‘stark fist of smiting’ (same as orbital bombardment, but allows you to target individual chaos character or daemon prince, or summoned daemonic unit)

Or use a unit of lesser daemons hunters, their tough as nails and get double attacks against daemon packs!

Troops: 4 units of 10 renagade marines ALL with a vet Sgt., H-Bolters and Flamers,
And cannabis grenades to mellow out those troublesome Khorne ‘zerkers
Or Gummy grenades to render their chain swords useless,
no more ‘Chainsaw! Chainsaw!'
Put them all in rhino's with lasgun sponsons

Fast Attack: lands speeder w/ twin linked assault cannons
or
10 assault troops w/ jump packs bolt pistols and chain swords, and ‘bag o’ grenades’
Bag o’ grenades allows you specialty grenades, every type from Rogue trader 1st ed and WH40k second ed. + some special house rules ones

Heavy Support: 3 fallen renegade dreds, 2-w Assault cannons and hvy. flamer and 1 w/ las cannon and missile


This isn’t tourney legal, but its great fun, I use it as one of my armies:
‘The Angry Bastard Sons of Malal’

Friends and house rules + apoc + beer and/or 420 make this a legal non-tourney army.
And warhammer is supposed to be about having fun playing ‘army men’,

And not anal retentive tourney mega uber destroyer lists.

Not bad for a first post eh? :D

Aristocrap
14-12-2009, 23:33
Uhh... Interesting?
If I had any interest in Malal, I'd have mentioned it, but I don't. I just stated I'd likley be going with Slaanesh. But I suppose I should thank you for the... er, suggestion.

Vedar
15-12-2009, 05:31
If you want a quick rundown of all Chaos Troops.

Plague-Tough as nails, hard to kill. Grade - A+
Noise-I5 and soinic weapons can get the job done with skill, but price is a little high. Grade -B-
Zerkers - CC killers, Rhinos madatory. CC or Bust. Grade - B
Sons - AP3 bolters are good but cost way too much. Slow, Costly, not much CC ability. Grade - D
Choas Space Marines - They got it all for a good price. CC, Shooty, Icons, spikes. Grade A

Schismotive
15-12-2009, 05:53
I've seen a few games with Nurgle players, and I know they're effective. I also just like them for fluff and content more than Slaanesh. Anyway both are cool, but I'd pick Nurgle.

spekkiebig
15-12-2009, 06:09
Nurgle bikers are filthy special weapon delivery systems, power armour, toughness 6 and the ability to turbo boost mean they can outflank most armies with impunity, if you stay out of charge range small arms fire isn't a massive worry.

Especialy fun if you use them as a delivery system for a Khorne Lord on a bike with a Deamon weapon! :evilgrin:

bigcheese76
15-12-2009, 18:21
Between nurgle and slaanesh go for nurgle but can Tzeetch not change your mind.

Kjell
15-12-2009, 18:33
I suppose you can always pick a themed force but paint them in a neutral colour scheme so you have room open for including a unit or two of the other gods.

White is probably a bit annoying to paint but it'd work great for both noise marines and plague marines. For the former you add gold details and cloth in interesting colours and patterns, and for the latter you just add rot. There's always plain metallics, too. That's quick and easy as well.

Hicks
15-12-2009, 18:56
Nurgle is:

- More powerfull
- Cooler
- Better
- More powerfull

And the old Plague Marines are the best 40K chaos models.

Aristocrap
15-12-2009, 19:38
Slaanesh is:

-Secretly drawing power from the pleasure Nurgle gets from spreading pestilence
-More aesthetically pleasing (unless you have some kinda rot fetish)
-Not spending his time bathing in landfills
-My new patron God

Deal with it :D

Luisjoey
15-12-2009, 20:00
the one i hate... NURGLE! simply ULGY enemy!

BaronDG
15-12-2009, 20:18
Why chose either? Slaanesh and Nurgle can work together.

Aristocrap
15-12-2009, 20:21
Because I'd rather have a single, unifying theme. It's just my personal taste, really.