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Caligula
16-12-2009, 19:01
Just a quick and simple question. Does a Plague Censer Bearer have to take a Toughness test every turn, even if they aren't in close combat, or is it only once they reach close combat that they have to start testing against themselves? The same question could apply to Plague Priests armed with Plague Censers as well.

nosferatu1001
16-12-2009, 19:05
Until they reach close combat they are not in base contact with eachother, as they are skirmishers.

Plague priest on top of a furnace would affect the models in base contact, due to the special rules.

AtnaShadow
17-12-2009, 11:57
I actually thought it said in the rules that they only need to test when in close combat, though regardless of that since censer bearers are skirmishers it's a moot point for them. I don't have my army book with me at the moment, so can't look it up.

Atrahasis
17-12-2009, 12:09
There's no specification that they have to be in close combat. It happens at the start of the close combat phase, but that's just timing.

Another downside is if they charge into combat, wipe out/break the enemy, and pursue/overrun, they'll take damage again in the opponent's turn as they'll still be ranked up.

Cambion Daystar
17-12-2009, 15:57
Are skirmishers still in "block" formation (ranked up) after an overrun/pursue? Do they only return to "skirmish" formation after they move again in their next phase or they flee?

Atrahasis
17-12-2009, 16:17
They're "skirmish", but "skirmish" and "base contact with each other" are not mutually exclusive.

When they overrun/pursue, every model moves the same direction the same distance, so their formation is maintained - and since they were touching each other in combat, they're still touching each other now.

stripsteak
17-12-2009, 16:21
their bases should (technically) still be touching. when pursuing you:
pivot on the spot..which shouldn't change what models you are touching
move the full distance rolled toward the fleeing unit..the only way for all the skirmishers in the unit to move the full distance is for them all to move in a strait line after the fleeing unit(s) which would mean staying 'in formation'

Cambion Daystar
17-12-2009, 18:48
Ok, seems we've been playing this wrong. We let them spread out during their pursuit/overrun. Good to know

EvC
17-12-2009, 19:38
Most people do, and it would pain me to insist that an opponent place them in the same formation they were fighting in, even though it would ive me an advantage...

Atrahasis
17-12-2009, 19:41
It should never pain you to expect your opponent to play by the rules.

Quannum
18-12-2009, 08:37
I'm with Atrahasis on this one, but I expect the FAQ to clear up the Censer rubbish so that you only test when the unit is in a close combat, not just generally at the start of each combat phase.

EvC
18-12-2009, 12:18
It should never pain you to expect your opponent to play by the rules.

Yet it so often is ;) For this chain of rules, the following would be likely to happen:
1) Plague Censers charge and destroy something.
2) Opponent moves them in their overrun, and places them a bit spread out.
3) I say, hold on matey, they have to retain their own formation.
4) Opponent inists he's sure he read somewhere that the skirmishers spread out a bit.
5) I insist that it isn't, and am faced with the task of proving a negative.
6) Eventually I convince him that he has to maintain the base-to-base formation.
7) In the next combat phase I tell him he needs to take toughness tests for the unit.
8-10) Repeat steps 4-6 regarding this rule.

Yep... pain :o

(Plus if my opponent has ever seen me move pursuing skirmishers incorrectly then he gets to call me a hypocrite, and who really does move pursuing skirmishers correctly 100% of the time?)

punkoteloco
18-12-2009, 12:20
Im playing since 5th ed, and the censer was only tested if the unit was in combat. At least thats how my gaming group were playing it. i hope it gets FAQed

Atrahasis
18-12-2009, 13:12
@EVC - I always move skirmishers correctly*, as I often use suicide charges with archers/free company/etc to rank them up for a nice cannon shot/burning head/template attack.

This isn't the only situation where it matters, and unless it can be proven that it doesn't matter (eg final turn, approximate position is sufficient to determine quarter they're in) then I do it right.

*This should be taken as a statement of intent, and not a claim of infallibility :P

Milgram
18-12-2009, 14:17
I don't have the BRB with me, but they also keep in contact when fleeing, right?

stripsteak
18-12-2009, 15:35
Im playing since 5th ed, and the censer was only tested if the unit was in combat. At least thats how my gaming group were playing it. i hope it gets FAQed

the last book the censor rules applied when in base contact with an enemy during the cc phase. So the result of this was it only happened when the bearer was in cc.

the current book has no such stipulation about base contact with enemy

EvC
18-12-2009, 16:36
@EVC - I always move skirmishers correctly*, as I often use suicide charges with archers/free company/etc to rank them up for a nice cannon shot/burning head/template attack.

This isn't the only situation where it matters, and unless it can be proven that it doesn't matter (eg final turn, approximate position is sufficient to determine quarter they're in) then I do it right.

*This should be taken as a statement of intent, and not a claim of infallibility :P

Well yes, I would think that any person making an argument for moving them correctly in order to play the rules precisely would indeed move them correctly- it's everyone else I'm worried about!

Caligula
19-12-2009, 01:37
Okay,so it seems as though it's not entirely clear. Phew, in a way I feel better about this, because it's seems as though it wasn't such a stupid question of me to ask after all;) It is unfortunate it's not entirely clear at this point though.

At this point I'm thinking, based on how it's written in the book, that at the start of each close combat turn each Censer Bearer will have to take a Toughness test thanks to their Plague Censers, regardless whether they're in close combat or not. Does this sound acceptable?

therat
19-12-2009, 03:23
Okay,so it seems as though it's not entirely clear. Phew, in a way I feel better about this, because it's seems as though it wasn't such a stupid question of me to ask after all;) It is unfortunate it's not entirely clear at this point though.

At this point I'm thinking, based on how it's written in the book, that at the start of each close combat turn each Censer Bearer will have to take a Toughness test thanks to their Plague Censers, regardless whether they're in close combat or not. Does this sound acceptable?

It's only necessary after they pursue a unit because they would be touching at that point. They only need to test if they are in btb with another censer.

nosferatu1001
19-12-2009, 09:48
Okay,so it seems as though it's not entirely clear. Phew, in a way I feel better about this, because it's seems as though it wasn't such a stupid question of me to ask after all;) It is unfortunate it's not entirely clear at this point though.

At this point I'm thinking, based on how it's written in the book, that at the start of each close combat turn each Censer Bearer will have to take a Toughness test thanks to their Plague Censers, regardless whether they're in close combat or not. Does this sound acceptable?


No: only if btb do they test - so in combat and, if they pursue, the turn after as they are still in base to base.

Caligula
22-12-2009, 03:53
Okay, thanks so much for clearing that up, everyone. That makes things even better then:) I'm quite pleased by this, and it makes a lot of sense. It's really what I thought would be the case, but I thought I'd make sure before I started playing them heavily. It's definitely good to have that cleared up.

So, basically when it comes to the Plague Censer Bearers, they really only have to start worrying about taking their Toughness tests when they get into combat, and if they pursue. It's actually a really good thing that the pursuit situation was brought up as well, as I hadn't thought of that, and possibly haven't been playing that through quite correctly up until now. Very helpful to know! I actually hadn't really paid much attention to Skirmishers staying "blocked up" as they pursue, but now that I've seen this, it's quite obvious that they do and it makes complete and utter sense. Excellent.