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Vepr
17-12-2009, 18:52
For those of you lucky enough to get a glimpse of the new dex how do the new NID MC's compare to the MC's from other codices? Will these new MC's be able to go toe to toe with greater demons etc? The new nid MC's seem really expensive but if we get a return on those points in lethality it all evens out. I am a little concerned about the rumored lack of invul and eternal warrior on nid stuff compared to other MCs.

Starchild
17-12-2009, 18:54
Sorry mate, this thread belongs in the 40k General Discussion forum... ;)

Vepr
17-12-2009, 18:55
Doh.. I meant to put it there. Could a mod move it. Got mixed up in the forums I was in.

Tiu
17-12-2009, 19:44
Well, I guess the Carnifex could deal some damage, being S9, but the others... I think most of them were S/T 6, so could be difficult (Im absolutely sure about Trygon and Mawloc here).
Hope this helps (a bit...)

thefunkynids
17-12-2009, 19:47
i love the trygon/mawloc although which one is better because i prefer the mawloc?

mightymconeshot
17-12-2009, 19:55
i cant see any of them matching up with any other MC mainly because they dont have an invul. save which is going to hurt them. the only one that would be possible is a tryant. in reality we will have to see in the new codex and see how it is sorted.

thefunkynids
17-12-2009, 20:01
thanx.oh and by the way dus the mawloc have a special rule where if his deep strike land s on top of a model they suffer a strength 6 ap2 hit cuz i heard it sumwhere

squeekenator
17-12-2009, 20:51
I haven't seen the book, but from what I hear about it the Swarmlord would be absolute murder on anything that moves. It's got a 50% chance to inflict Instant Death on Ld10 models and a much higher chance to kill anything with less Leadership than that, and even Eternal Warriors are in trouble against a WS9 monstrous creature with a 4+ invulnerable save who forces you to re-roll successful invulnerables. If it's allowed to give itself Preferred Enemy as well as giving it to other broods, it'll easily be one of the strongest close combat models in the game. As far as regular Tyrants go, Warp Scream drops the enemy to WS and BS 1 (!!!) and its lash whip also weakens the enemy, so with those on top of at least 4+ poison I can see them doing a number on many hard hitters as well.

I get the feeling that Carnifexes are actually going to be the least effective TMC against other big nasties for a change, since all they can do is hit things hard, and with a meagre WS3 they aren't going to get enough hits in to kill a multiwound model with Eternal Warrior or high Toughness, even if they are rerolling all misses. Maybe the new and improved crushing claws could help out, but I don't see Carnifexes winning against Greater Daemons in this new codex. Whether that's a bad thing or not is up to you to decide, but I find it quite thematic that the commanders of the swarm are the ones best suited for taking out important targets, whereas the big nasty tanks are just for plowing through regular troops.

Tiu
17-12-2009, 22:24
I think I have to disagree with you in several points: First, youre massively overrating the swarmlord. Sure, hes got some nice gimmicks, but in the end, hes only S6, T6, is a footslogger and has no defence against range. NONE. Hes got a nice 4+* save in cc, and the ID is nice, too. But its not enough for a model that costs more than a LR.
Carnifexes meanwhile, while certainly nerfed from a bang-for-buck point of view, are still S9, with a reasonable I on the charge, 4 attacks and okay WS. At the same time, you can get a whole lot more of them (if youve got the points).

Rayz_thedead
17-12-2009, 22:53
Hey to go along with this, has any one got any word on the flying MC?? i think it was called the Harpy??? from what i have seen for rumours it looks awesome... i think i just have a thng for Tyranid MC!! >.<

RampagingRavener
17-12-2009, 22:57
Hey to go along with this, has any one got any word on the flying MC?? i think it was called the Harpy??? from what i have seen for rumours it looks awesome... i think i just have a thng for Tyranid MC!! >.<

IIRC, it's only got T5 and a 4+ save. Unless the thing is really cheap I can't see it being all that useful.

winterman
17-12-2009, 23:12
Swarm lord is also rumored to force rerolling of inv saves and his insta kill does not require ld test (not 100% sure on last bit). He can also use two psychic powers a turn. If all that is true, he will own.

hendybadger
17-12-2009, 23:21
Hey to go along with this, has any one got any word on the flying MC?? i think it was called the Harpy??? from what i have seen for rumours it looks awesome... i think i just have a thng for Tyranid MC!! >.<

Im exactly the same. Im already planning 3 Harpies, a full Heavy selection of Fexes and anything else I can fit in. Is it an obsession?

Rayz_thedead
17-12-2009, 23:39
I enjoy the modeling aspect of the game the most, so building a unit of flying MC is really exciting. There is more to this game than just winning. I used to play Nidzilla and with the the rumours are going i look forward to the new Nidzilla list make up... there is nothing more gratifying than seeing the look of your opponents face when now you have a few MC that are not fex's

hendybadger
17-12-2009, 23:50
Its going to be great. I NEED more MCs. The look of fear is the most satisfying part

Sarevok
18-12-2009, 00:11
No Eternal Warrior and no Invulnerable means TMCs ain't so hot compared to other MCs. But I guess you can take more of them to make up for it.

TheShadowCow
18-12-2009, 00:22
I think I have to disagree with you in several points: First, youre massively overrating the swarmlord. Sure, hes got some nice gimmicks, but in the end, hes only S6, T6, is a footslogger and has no defence against range. NONE. Hes got a nice 4+* save in cc, and the ID is nice, too. But its not enough for a model that costs more than a LR.
Carnifexes meanwhile, while certainly nerfed from a bang-for-buck point of view, are still S9, with a reasonable I on the charge, 4 attacks and okay WS. At the same time, you can get a whole lot more of them (if youve got the points).

You can still purchase Guard for the Swarmlord (which, let's face it, is a smart move). Further, he has Life Leech, and so can actually recover those few wounds that get past his Guard, Toughness and base Armour Save. You do of course pay through the nose (and every other body part you care to name) for him, but then again (like Skarbrand and the Deceiver to name a couple of examples) he'll only truly be worth fielding if you shape your entire list around him. Not the sort of unit you can just drop into any old list and expect to kick non-chitinous behind, but an absolute backbreaker if you abuse him properly. Ultimately I think he's even more deadly in these "which is the utimate monster?" contests than the Nightbringer, although the Nightbringer himself is one of the better placed opponents to deal with him (bar Instant Death related funzies :p).

Carnifexes I do agree are a real dark horse at the moment. A lot of people are (amongst other things) forgetting that with twin Talons they will re-roll all of their missed hits, will be I4 on the charge and have access to a short ranged Plasma Cannon to strip away targets from short range.



On the whole, I don't think TMCs are *really* going to notice the loss of Eternal Warrior or the lack of Invulnerable Saves, because they bring so much else to the table. In time, I'm sure the online community will embrace that. For now though, it's mostly "omfg price hikes".

Rayz_thedead
18-12-2009, 00:51
what a short ranged plasma cannon? on fex's is this what Bio plasma is??? that is awesome!!! I think fex's are going to have alot of ppl crying that they got nerfed but i think we just have to view them in a different light now. We will be able to make some cool formations with them! i will pass judgment when i see the dex. and reroll hits with scything talons sound great!!!

Xyrex
18-12-2009, 02:19
Sigh... These new rules are BS. Unless they can really find a good explinaation for this in the fluff, im not buying it. There simply shouldnt be things that make u reroll invuls for no reason. also, tyranids shouldnt have anything even near plasma cannons.

daboarder
18-12-2009, 02:40
Xyrex the plasma is a nod to the old Bio-plasma rules and with 12 range it going to be a one-shot before combat so odds are whatever you it's shooting at is about to go bye bye anyway.

Xyrex
18-12-2009, 02:44
ok, but what about the rerolling of invuls?

daboarder
18-12-2009, 02:48
thats only ONE character. And he costs more than a land raider while lacking a ranged invul save or wings.

Logyn
18-12-2009, 03:31
Swarmlord is just one very scary bug. with TWO PAIRS of boneswords, he gets the 'deflection' 4+ invuln, he insta-kills on wounding (no test, that's just on 1 or a pair of boneswords), and he punches through opposing invulnerable saves by pure awesome.
If this guy can take wings.....

The trygon/trygon prime and mawloc are just... nasty IMHO. deepstriking, t6, 6 wounds.... just try swatting it in one turn, much less a couple coming in together! Add in the trygon's ws6 and its, you guessed it, 6 attacks base, with a strength 6 assault 6 shooting attack to boot. Number of the Beast much? And the mawloc can munch terminators for breakfast with that strength 6 ap2 large blast. And with hit and run, he's not getting tarpitted. AND he can retreat underground to blast again next turn! mwahahahahahaha

I think the trick with the new beasties is going to be target saturation. All of them beg to be shot, but your opponent only has so many bullets (unless it's a guard player...). Can't wait to see how these guys fare at my local gameshop ;)

cuda1179
18-12-2009, 03:38
I don't think that the Tyranids have horrible monsterous creatures. Sure the carnifex is more expensive now. Sure it lost a lot of options. It also gained some to, if the rumors are to be believed. It gained 2 attacks (previously you you had to buy two sets of sything talons), it now rerolls hits, it has a bioplasma attack, and gets a MUCH better inititive on the charge.

Let's compare the Carnifex to the Avatar.
1. Both infantry that move the same rate.
2.About the same price. (Avatar slightly cheaper)
3.Same number of attacks, (Avatar has a better weapon skill, but carnifex rerolls hits). I give a slight edge to the Carnifex.
4.Both have a short range shooting attack. Slight edge to the Avatar
5.Same number of wounds.
6.Carnifex is MUCH stronger
7.Avatar has higher inititive
8.same toughness
9.same number of wounds
10.Both are fearless.
11. Avatar makes units fearless.
12. Same armor save
13.Carnifex does not have the invulnerable the Avatar has.
14. Carnifex can come in HUGE quantities, you only get one Avatar.

Overall, I think the Carnifex is only a slightly worse deal that the Avatar.

Rayz_thedead
18-12-2009, 03:44
Why cant Nid's have something like plasma? We see crazy paths in evolution in real life, so i like the kind of outlandish or extream thoughts of were a race did not make technologies but evolved into what they needed... there is a species of crab that thought snaping its claw shut so fast (cavitation)a vaccume occurs in the water and when the water slaps back to place it reaches temps of the sun!!! so when looking at what the nids can and cant do its pointles.... and come on this is a sifi game lol >.<

Broken Loose
18-12-2009, 04:30
I don't think that the Tyranids have horrible monsterous creatures. Sure the carnifex is more expensive now. Sure it lost a lot of options. It also gained some to, if the rumors are to be believed. It gained 2 attacks (previously you you had to buy two sets of sything talons), it now rerolls hits, it has a bioplasma attack, and gets a MUCH better inititive on the charge.

Let's compare the Carnifex to the Avatar.
1. Both infantry that move the same rate.
2.About the same price. (Avatar slightly cheaper)
3.Same number of attacks, (Avatar has a better weapon skill, but carnifex rerolls hits). I give a slight edge to the Carnifex.
4.Both have a short range shooting attack. Slight edge to the Avatar
5.Same number of wounds.
6.Carnifex is MUCH stronger
7.Avatar has higher inititive
8.same toughness
9.same number of wounds
10.Both are fearless.
11. Avatar makes units fearless.
12. Same armor save
13.Carnifex does not have the invulnerable the Avatar has.
14. Carnifex can come in HUGE quantities, you only get one Avatar.

Overall, I think the Carnifex is only a slightly worse deal that the Avatar.

Fexes are 1/3rd the WS of avatars and hit the latter on a 5 in close combat.
Avatars come with a free meltagun and BS5.
Avatars provide leadership aura, fexes REQUIRE leadership aura.
Fexes are 5 points more than an avatar before purchasing bio-plasma or ANY weapons or upgrades of any kind.
Avatar is immune to heat-based weaponry.
Avatar has access to Fortune and Doom. A Fortuned avatar will shrug off 75% of any wounds it suffers.

So, even if by some miracle, the fex (with no guns or else it gets no rerolls) rolls a 5+ on all 4 of its hits and then proceeds to roll no 1's to wound, the avatar still will ignore 3 of those 4 hits.
On the contrary, the avatar has a clear advantage in shooting (free gun that wounds on a 2+ and ignores the fex's armor), hitting in assault (a 3+ to hit versus a 5+), goes first, and essentially ignores any return fire. Even if he's only S6, that just means he wounds the fex on a 4+ with optional reroll.

A carnifex has no business beating an Avatar of Khaine.

cuda1179
18-12-2009, 05:52
Okay, sure there are things in an Eldar army that can boost an Avatar. But don't turn this into a Carnifex VS. Avatar & Farseer battle. If we are talking support I'll thow in a couple Hive guard that will insta-kill that Farseer and come back looking to blast the Avatar. See where I am going here?

Zazoo
18-12-2009, 09:46
I don't think that the Tyranids have horrible monsterous creatures. Sure the carnifex is more expensive now. Sure it lost a lot of options. It also gained some to, if the rumors are to be believed. It gained 2 attacks (previously you you had to buy two sets of sything talons), it now rerolls hits, it has a bioplasma attack, and gets a MUCH better inititive on the charge.

Let's compare the Carnifex to the Avatar.
1. Both infantry that move the same rate.
2.About the same price. (Avatar slightly cheaper)
3.Same number of attacks, (Avatar has a better weapon skill, but carnifex rerolls hits). I give a slight edge to the Carnifex.
4.Both have a short range shooting attack. Slight edge to the Avatar
5.Same number of wounds.
6.Carnifex is MUCH stronger
7.Avatar has higher inititive
8.same toughness
9.same number of wounds
10.Both are fearless.
11. Avatar makes units fearless.
12. Same armor save
13.Carnifex does not have the invulnerable the Avatar has.
14. Carnifex can come in HUGE quantities, you only get one Avatar.

Overall, I think the Carnifex is only a slightly worse deal that the Avatar.

Most of what you say is true but a few corrections.

3. A Carnifex has WS3 so needs 5's to hit a lot of HQ units where the STR 9 is going to help to instant kill so they are about even on that one.
10. Carnifex is NOT fearless, he is only fearless in synapse and is Ld6 so things like mind war are going to absolutely decimate it.
13. 4+ Invulnerable is a HUGE benefit to the Avatar.
14. Only 1 Avatar is available and he takes up a precious HQ slot.
15. with all the instant death things out there the carnifex is going to often die to them with NO invulnerable for the lucky save and lets not forget that JoTWW is going to still make a mess of them.

Overall the Carnifex is quite a bit worse than the Avatar AND is more expensive.
But you also have to consider that the Eldar Codex was written quite a while ago with a completely different mindset so....

IJW
18-12-2009, 10:16
also, tyranids shouldnt have anything even near plasma cannons.
That's what Bio-plasma used to be when the Screamer Killer introduced Carnifexes into the game. The clue is in the ability name... ;)

Vlad Urkana
18-12-2009, 15:04
The trygon/trygon prime and mawloc are just... nasty IMHO. deepstriking, t6, 6 wounds.... just try swatting it in one turn, much less a couple coming in together! Add in the trygon's ws6 and its, you guessed it, 6 attacks base, with a strength 6 assault 6 shooting attack to boot. Number of the Beast much? And the mawloc can munch terminators for breakfast with that strength 6 ap2 large blast. And with hit and run, he's not getting tarpitted. AND he can retreat underground to blast again next turn! mwahahahahahaha

I think I'm going to have to get an mp3 player and speakers so I can play some Iron Maiden everytime I'm playing my bugs now. Their whole Number of the Beast album will be fitting. I'm already loling at playing "Run to the Hills" everytime I break a unit.

Brendi
19-12-2009, 10:27
Read somewhere that the number 6 means "God" in Islam. So you can play for the devil or jahve if you want to :P

petpetpetpet
19-12-2009, 12:15
No Eternal Warrior and no Invulnerable means TMCs ain't so hot compared to other MCs.

Firstly they're toughness 6 and strength 12 weapons aren't possible :p Plus under current synapse rules anything within 12" can't be instant deathed so they currently can't be force weaponed.

The lack of invulnerables is a bitch, but in the next book with Venomthropes giving everything in the open cover it will be really good for Nidzilla lists.

Pet

tezza21
19-12-2009, 12:45
whats a tyrannofex

Kelderaith
19-12-2009, 14:08
Read somewhere that the number 6 means "God" in Islam. So you can play for the devil or jahve if you want to :P

Except of course that the god of Islam is Allah (or w/e it is spelled), Yahve is actually the jew's god.

That's kind of why there is a no religion policy on warseer, way too easy to offend a truckload of people with only a 2 lines reply ;)

vladsimpaler
19-12-2009, 16:22
whats a tyrannofex

im 12 yers old an wat is this

bluenova
19-12-2009, 18:13
For those of you lucky enough to get a glimpse of the new dex ...

Is it true that Carnifexes in broods must have the same weapons etc? I ask because WD shows a picture of two fexes stood next to each other with different weapons - could they be a brood, or two separate 'units' that are just stood near each other.

Also, not to divert the thread, but are Genestealer broods allowed mixed weapons? Again, WD has pictures of a squad where some stealers have scything talons and some don't - or have the photographers forgotten to do their homework?

PhalanxLord
19-12-2009, 18:33
A Tyrannofex is a new MC thats pretty much a s6 W6 2+ save carnifex with less attacks that comes with a multi-type flamer and one other weapon (choice between inferno cannon, a 20 shot 12" bolter, and a 48" s10 2 shot gun) and costs as much as a land raider. It looks like its one of those units that looks good, but was priced so high that it will probably never be used in competitive armies.

People can complain all they want about how nid MCs are being nerfed, but if the rumor about MC devs being twin linked is true then Dakkaflyrants and dakkafexes may still be quite useful. You have to admit they were undercosted before.

Trygons just look like beasts. I don't know if they can stand up to a bloodthirster or anything like that (I doubt it, even with a round of shooting in first) but they will sure as hell tear apart infantry. *blinks for a moment* Did anyone else just clue in that trygons have 6 attacks with two pairs of scything talons? Gotta love those re-rolls...

crashbang
20-12-2009, 04:22
so in a 1500 point army, in theory you could get 3 carnifexes, a marlock, a trygon, a harpy, a hive tyrant and a tergivor....wouldnt be that good but damn...