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shutupSHUTUP!!!
30-01-2006, 04:53
I've been thinking about how I'd like the catachans to look and feel, I but also about some changes to their background, I'm not happy with the GW version. I want to see what everyone thinks and get suggestions.

Firstly there's the problem with the current plastics, I think their awful. They don't even looked like they have a 6+ save, they look like giant babies and have massive arms. This is my vision of a catachan:


http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6423/catachan5kj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


More "commando" than "space neanderthal" for a start, also some facial hair, makes them look more rugged. And armour! This "flak vest" should at least look like it has an outside chance of stopping a shot, and sleeves, because they don't need to be naked underneath either. I think they need a more standardised look too, these guys are "mass produced" after all, the basic body should be pretty similar to every other standard Catachan infantryman. Frankly, most games involve Catchans won't be in dense jungle, so they should look like a proper army i think.

Lets build up a picture of Catachan, the planet. How do they live? In cities, towns, settlements? Tribes? Maybe they could have tribal markings/war paint or something in addition to their camoflauge. What seems reasonable?

Brimstone
30-01-2006, 05:35
Why not just create your own IG regiment rather than 'redoing' another one with well established background.

Ko Improbable
30-01-2006, 12:55
I've been thinking about how I'd like the catachans to look and feel, I but also about some changes to their background, I'm not happy with the GW version. I want to see what everyone thinks and get suggestions.

Firstly there's the problem with the current plastics, I think their awful. They don't even looked like they have a 6+ save, they look like giant babies and have massive arms. This is my vision of a catachan:

More "commando" than "space neanderthal" for a start, also some facial hair, makes them look more rugged. And armour! This "flak vest" should at least look like it has an outside chance of stopping a shot, and sleeves, because they don't need to be naked underneath either. I think they need a more standardised look too, these guys are "mass produced" after all, the basic body should be pretty similar to every other standard Catachan infantryman. Frankly, most games involve Catchans won't be in dense jungle, so they should look like a proper army i think.

Lets build up a picture of Catachan, the planet. How do they live? In cities, towns, settlements? Tribes? Maybe they could have tribal markings/war paint or something in addition to their camoflauge. What seems reasonable?

Well, I agree with the idea that they shouldn't all look like the love child of Schwartzenegger and Stalone, as such muscle structure takes some dedicated training, I'm told. And, if you're fighting to survive every day, you don't have time to devote to that sort of training.
I'd envision Catachans as being a little smaller than expected and very wiry. Thus, more adept at moving through a jungle quietly. If you don't like the "bulletproof undershirt" look, you could try to design armour that will let air in and out without comprimising it's ability to stop incoming projectiles. Maybe that'll be what makes it a 6+ save; the venting system is a flawed design and doesn't provide adequate protection, but the AdMech thinks it'd be heresy to modify the machines that make it. And the venting is important. Read up on the Vietnam war and what happened if the soldiers didn't keep their feet dry. Now, imagine that sort of thing happening to your chest.

If you go by GW's description of the flora and fauna of Catachan, the environment requires that they live in temporary settlements that can be moved or replaced easily. So, I envision it as several hundred thousand little temporary towns that shift and occasionally disappear all together.

Tribes would be an interesting thing to throw into the mix. Warpaint could be a practical thing as well as to show what tribe you're part of. Such as, "if you smear this on your face, the scent will make [insert name of predatory animal] less likely to attack you," or "When you paint your face up in this pattern, animals will mistake you for [insert name of dangerous plant] and avoid you." Warpaint could also be a way to build up immunity to toxins found in the region the tribe lives in.

IMO, most battles Catachan troops will be used in would be in jungles or dense woods. You use troops where they are strongest if you have the opportunity. I'm sure there will be some battles where they'll be wasted in trench warfare or what have you, but I would think that a good general would only do so if he didn't have an alternative.

Mind you, the only problem I have with the Catachans are the models, but I see nothing wrong with expanding the fluff for the Catachans.

Dervish
30-01-2006, 14:16
The background for Catachan describes it as a high-gravity deathworld, and the inhabitants resemble 'baby ogryns'.

Of course, not to their faces...:angel:

Either way, it does back up the idea that they are grotesquely over-muscled. Rewriting the background to such an extent rather defeats the object of having Catachan jungle fighters as Brimstone says, why not just make up a new regiment/world?

I think the background that exists is pretty cool; though I will admit the models could use a little (read: 'a lot of') work. The artwork in the codex makes it clear that they're pretty buff; but not quite so overly-muscled as the models would suggest. That said, I dig the HW teams: that's how I see the catachans! As to the facial hair, that's probably best represented with painted stubble a very simple technique of adding a spot of midnight blue or codex grey to the base flesh colour after shading but before highlighting.

The 6+ save represents no greater protection than leather armour: just look at the orks; so a flak vest represents it well.

You could use your concept sketch to represent another jungle-fighting regiment.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
30-01-2006, 15:22
This thread is about Catachans, so if you aren't interested you don't need to post, the picture was to get my point across about how I'd like Catachans to look and feel, I know I'm not the only person who isn't impressed with the plastics

So the Catachans migrate, what sort of population levels are we looking at here I wonder, pretty low I'd assume compared to planets like Cadia and Necromunda. The catachans have a rule to use deathworld toxins in their sniper rifles from codex cityfight, so I'm liking the idea of more toxins... Our standard Catachan, then, is a l33t trooper, I think a commando image is far more suitable than the "baby ogryns" thing they have going.

malika
30-01-2006, 15:36
Well what do we know about the humans from Catachan? I mean who were the original settlers? Perhaps they might have been a beefed up bunch which has become a genetic trait. Im no atlete or anything like that so I dont know how muscles develop after doing certain kinds of labour, so that might also be a factor we have to look at.

However "baby Ogryns", we also need to define the Ogryn, what exactly is it? A human from a low gravity world doesnt sound that interesting to me, perhaps some sort of genetic experiment from the DAoT? Perhaps the original Catachans might be the same, however to a less extreme level, so they are still human but beefier.

It might also be a local drug which makes them so big, herbal steroids and stuff like that!

Also we have to look at cultural aspects. Sure its more effective to wear armour and have high tech gadgets, but perhaps they dont believe in that. For example during Che Guevara's time in the Congo the Congolese troops refused to use more stealth tactics or anything the Cuban tried to teach them because they believed their were protected by magic powers. Hence something similar could be the case with the Catachans who simply refuse to wear armour because they believe the Emperor will protect them.


And the venting is important. Read up on the Vietnam war and what happened if the soldiers didn't keep their feet dry. Now, imagine that sort of thing happening to your chest.

The US had that problem a lot eventhough they had access to all these high tech goodies, IIRC the Vietnamese guerillas didnt have that much problems with that, how do they do it?

@shutupSHUTUP: I like the concept art you made, looks very fitting the the Quechitians Im working on (Imperial Guard regiment based on Cuban guerillas)
I still imagine the Catachans to be more like jarheads mixed with tribal cultures, perhaps GW's lack of historical info seems to be the problem. Perhaps Catachans were very much like jarhead looking troopers who got stranded on Catachan and then survived and altered their original culture while still keeping certain aspects from it. Originally this piece of artwork was meant for the Quechitians (Juddski drew it) but it seems fitting for the Catachans as well:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/juddski/the%20guards/quechitigT2.jpg

Destecado
31-01-2006, 13:28
shutupShutup!!! your original artwork for some reason makes me think of Snake from the Metal Gear Solid video games.

http://www.spawntoys.com/Metalgear/mgs2_solid_snake.jpg

I like your idea for creating a different kind of Catachan, but rather than having it apply to all of the Catachans, why not leave room for both type of groups to exist. It is important to remember that the Catachan IG units represent the best and the brightest sent off to war. they may therefore be the peak physical specimens of their culture, but do not represent the full range of body tuypes present in the Catachan population.

I also discount the idea of the Catachan being "Baby Ogryns". Heat and gravity are factors to which a human can adapt. that is part of the reason that the Vietnamese had less trouble fighting in the heat. they had grown up their whole lives in such conditions. They were use to the conditions and their body was adapted to survive in such an enviroment.

GW's view of many planets having only a single enviroment is not only simplistic, but rather ridiculous. Granted, Catachan may be a world covered in jungle, but even a jungle ecosystem varies. If you look at the jungles of South East Asia, they have similarities to , but are different from the Tropical rain forests of South America, which differ from the African jungle habitat of the gorillas.

The existing Catachan may be drawn from a particular region of the planet. It is just as likely for a smaller more wiry human form to be the norm in another part of the jungle ecosystem. This allows room for both your new type of Catachan and the canonical Catachan to exist together, and not be mutually exclusive. Perhaps your Catachans occupy the hotter jungles near the equator.

Khaine's Messenger
31-01-2006, 16:45
also some facial hair, makes them look more rugged.

Unfortunately, facial hair would probably only leave room for some of the more annoying aspects of their lives to make themselves known (and might disguise various tiny pests that would otherwise be visible to your mates). Catachans always seemed more the well-shaved type to me. Quite possibly even intentional balding.


Lets build up a picture of Catachan, the planet. How do they live? In cities, towns, settlements?

According to the canonical background (heavy iirc), there are very, very few actual settlements on Catachan, since the flora/fauna actively destroy and overgrow anything more than semipermanent. They're only kept back by liberal abuse of the flame weapons for which Catachans are notorious, although one can only assume that there are portions of Catachan that do not burn well at all. In fact, the vast bulk of the people thought of as "Catachans" are probably from the nearby settlements on Catachan's moon/sister planet (again, heavy iirc), which is a much nicer place all things considered, and is where outsiders conduct their business. Catachan proper is a deathworld, after all, a place where waking up in bristling pain is probably the makings of a good day.

Catachan itself is probably only kept as populous as it is due to Imperial investment in drawing experienced jungle-fighters from its depths. It seems to be quite the recruitment spot, and I can't recall offhand what other sort of resources Catachan provides.

Sandlemad
31-01-2006, 17:33
Yep. The training ground potential is the only thing that keeps the imperium interested in catachan. No worthwhile resources or anything. The catachans are very proud of that fact themselves, judging by the fluff.

But yes, catachan is a deathworld. Deathworld meaning that a helluva lot on the planet is dangerous to human life. The fluff mentions that weak children are abandoned without a second thought.

Actually, come to thibk of it, in many ways they would appear to be the jungle equivalent of Dune's Fremen, though perhaps with a less religious outlook on life, due to the knowledge of why they are there, solely to provide elite troops for the imperium.

Also, I would see semi-permanent as meaning big, fast drying concrete walls surrounding a city thats inhabited for about 2 years tops, generally a bit less.

I like the wiry idea, it does make sense. Wiry and vicious, perfect.:)

Flame Boy
31-01-2006, 17:51
Quote from Khaine's Messenger
and I can't recall offhand what other sort of resources Catachan provides.


...Probably a lovely set of pot plants that I'd imagine the Officio Assasinorum send as gifts to troublesome planetary govenors.