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Caligula
20-12-2009, 01:23
Greetings greetings, fellow tacticians. As some of you might already know, I've got a fairly substantial Skaven army on the go currently, and more on the way. One thing I've yet to include, however, is a unit of Gutter Runners, and to be honest, I feel like I'm missing out a bit because of this. I'd love to eventually have at least one good death squad of these Eshin adepts hired for my army.

Which brings me to my question; what makes for a good unit of Gutter Runners? Seeing as most(if not all) of my Special slots are used up in pretty much every list I use, the chances are good I'll only have one unit of them made up when the time comes. So, I suppose I'm looking for advice on what would constitute a good, all-round unit of Gutter Runners. For one, at a glance, the Deathrunner seems like an excellent option to include, and would increase the power level of the unit incredibly.

Anyway, I'm looking for your thoughts on what a good, all-round and effective unit of Gutter Runners would consist of. I'm not going for the cheapest option for this unit, more or less the best for cost, including unit size, equipment, the whole deal. What's a good-looking unit of Gutter Runners?

Caligula
20-12-2009, 02:36
Well, to get the ball rolling, this is my current thinking on a Gutter Runner death squad that I feel truly deserves to be called a "death squad", in that it can potentially kill anything it happens to choose to take on. It's not cheap, by any means, however, but I believe it would get the job done. I'm not at all familiar with using Gutter Runners at this point, so feel free to say anything in regards to this unit build.

9 Gutter Runners-
Additional Hand Weapons
Throwing Stars
Poisoned Attacks
Deathrunner with a Weeping Blade

So, there it is. It comes in at 195 points, but I think if applied correctly, it could earn its' keep. Again, not being familiar with using Gutter Runners at all yet, I could be wrong in this, but it seems to me like they could do the business.

Caligula
20-12-2009, 02:44
I should mention that I haven't seen a lot of Gutter Runners being used in a lot of Skaven lists lately, either. Now, I have a feeling this has more to do with the fact that there's some other more commonly good Special choices in the new Skaven book(ie. Plague Monks, Plague Censer Bearers), rather than the Gutter Runners being a poor choice in and of themselves.

KayazyAssassin
20-12-2009, 04:14
i personally like gutter runners because of their options they provide. How do you plan to use them scouts or backboard deployers. The set up you have looks pretty solid and i think it could earn their points back no problem

eyescrossed
20-12-2009, 09:34
Sorry that I'm not adding anything to the discussion, but couldn't you possibly use the EDIT button instead of triple posting?

Oscarius
20-12-2009, 10:18
I have to say that I love Gutter Runners, but I have to say that I only use them in units of 5-7, naked.

They are dirt cheap and can pop up in the backfield of the opponent, throw some stars on a crew or a missile units and then charge the turn after that.

Caligula
20-12-2009, 13:05
Thanks for the comments, everyone. Okay, so there's the type of unit I have posted above, which is the expensive, fully dressed kind, and then there's the kind that you prefer, Oscarius, naked, cheap and still likely quite effective. Very nice. I think the unit I posted would likely be best used as Scouts, that way their appearance is assured, at the very least. Their status as Skirmishers, their Ward saves, and some careful yet efficient movement should see them safely to where they can best do their work. Although, it would be cool to try using them as backfield deployers with the Sneaky Infiltrators rule sometimes, just to mess with an opponent, although I might want to use a slightly cheaper unit if I was going that route.

Thanks Kayazy Assassin, I'm glad to hear that the unit I posted should do okay. I mean, for under 200 points I have a nasty Scouting or backfield unit with loads of poisoned ranged and close combat attack, plus a mini-character with a magical Weeping Blade in the form of the Deathrunner...which makes anything taking them on in combat think twice. I quite like.

eyescrossed: Yup, I suppose I could have used the edit button and made one large post, but usually that's not my style. You'll notice I'm not new here, however, and I'm not trying to rack up a post count or some such nonsense. I'm not really all that terribly up on forum etiquette, however, so I didn't know that this "triple posting" was such an issue. I don't think it was a waste of "posting space", however, which is when I think triple posting becomes and issue. Rather, each post did have something different and valuable (imho) to add to the discussion that I happened to start. You're right, though, no big deal, and I'll be more mindful of double and triple posting when I could simply edit...I just worry about getting things too squished together in one post that nobody wants to take the time to read. Phew, anyway, I digress...point taken.

Lord Khabal
20-12-2009, 13:30
I believe that a naked unit of 5 is probably the most effective points wise.

eyescrossed
20-12-2009, 13:38
Thanks for the comments, everyone. Okay, so there's the type of unit I have posted above, which is the expensive, fully dressed kind, and then there's the kind that you prefer, Oscarius, naked, cheap and still likely quite effective. Very nice. I think the unit I posted would likely be best used as Scouts, that way their appearance is assured, at the very least. Their status as Skirmishers, their Ward saves, and some careful yet efficient movement should see them safely to where they can best do their work. Although, it would be cool to try using them as backfield deployers with the Sneaky Infiltrators rule sometimes, just to mess with an opponent, although I might want to use a slightly cheaper unit if I was going that route.

Thanks Kayazy Assassin, I'm glad to hear that the unit I posted should do okay. I mean, for under 200 points I have a nasty Scouting or backfield unit with loads of poisoned ranged and close combat attack, plus a mini-character with a magical Weeping Blade in the form of the Deathrunner...which makes anything taking them on in combat think twice. I quite like.

eyescrossed: Yup, I suppose I could have used the edit button and made one large post, but usually that's not my style. You'll notice I'm not new here, however, and I'm not trying to rack up a post count or some such nonsense. I'm not really all that terribly up on forum etiquette, however, so I didn't know that this "triple posting" was such an issue. I don't think it was a waste of "posting space", however, which is when I think triple posting becomes and issue. Rather, each post did have something different and valuable (imho) to add to the discussion that I happened to start. You're right, though, no big deal, and I'll be more mindful of double and triple posting when I could simply edit...I just worry about getting things too squished together in one post that nobody wants to take the time to read. Phew, anyway, I digress...point taken.

Oh sorry, I don't really mind as such, it's just that some people do for some reason.

Good reasoning for it though, and that makes a lot more sense now :)

Caligula
20-12-2009, 13:42
Hey, no worries, eyescrossed, you definitely aren't the first to get after for me double and triple posting when I could have simply edited to make a single post;) I've gotten my wrist slapped before. I know, some people have a pretty big problem with it, so I appreciate the reminder anyway, my friend!

Lord Kahbal: I can definitely see where you're coming from there. A minimum sized unit, cheap as chips, and able to deploy on the backfield to cause havoc for very little points is, most likely, one of the most efficient ways of using them, I totally agree. I think, though, when I make mine(eventually),I'll go ahead and build the larger unit of nine of them, as I've posted above. It would give me the option of using the minimum sized unit, like you mentioned, and/or the larger uber death squad unit I've mentioned. But I have a feeling you're quite right, that an inexpensive and expendable unit of them would make for the best use of points a lot of the time.

Nurgling Chieftain
20-12-2009, 16:56
Yup, I suppose I could have used the edit button and made one large post, but usually that's not my style.It is against forum rule #13:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/faq.php?faq=rules

Caligula
20-12-2009, 17:29
Point taken, Nurgling Chieftan, and like I said, I'll be more mindful of such things in the future.

Back to the discussion at hand, however, let's talk about Snare-nets, Smoke Bombs, and Warp-Grinders.

What's the general consensus on Snare-nets? To me, they seem quite fluffy and far from useless, but personally I believe the additional hand weapon(particularly if they're poisoned) to be much more valuable for my purposes. I would like to hear anyone's opinions on Snare-nets, however, as they do pose some interesting options.

Smoke Bombs on a Deathrunner...hmmm, I'm not too sure. Of course I can see their use, and they're priced quite cheaply, but for whatever reason I've passed on them, certainly in favour of the Weeping Blade for my Deathrunner. The Weeping Blade turns the Deathrunner into a bit of a mini character in his own right, a junior Assassin, if you will, for an excellent price. This is an option I find hard to pass up.

Now, the Warp-Grinder. It's a cool option, but one more suited to a unit of Night Runners, I believe. The Gutter Runners have a couple of other options for getting where they need to be, and for their expense, the Warp_Grinder can be a little dangerous and unnecessary for Gutter Runners. That said, I wouldn't mind hearing an opinion to the contrary:)

EvilIncarnate
21-12-2009, 00:25
I like to give them slings just in case they are out of range for throwing stars plus the 2X shoots is nice.

The Deathrunner with a weeping blade seems pointless because of his str 3. I could see giving it to him if he had str 4. You could get 2 to 3 more base runners for what the weeping blase costs you.

Galatan
21-12-2009, 08:31
Used them once in a 1000 pts game with slings and poison. I think slings is a must for these guys, since throwing stars are really short ranged (6 inch IIRC, but I could be wrong). Having mutiple shots on a small unit really helps. The only thing is I find poison really expensive, but some people over at the under empire say that slings and poison could really work against unarmoured monsters like giants (6 gutters runners, 12 shots, 2 poison hits on average, could work).
Wheeping blade is far too expensive for a S3 guy IMO, most characters have at least T4 (except elves of course). And the guy only has 2 attacks base, he really isn't gonna give much on an impression.

Smoke bombs are iffy. I see them much more in situations where they are either attacking the flank or rear or shooting with their slings and both these situations wouldn't need smoke bombs (at least you should hope you win the combat if you combine the flank charge with another unit).

Snare nets are meh. Their WS is average and I think that the bonus given by snare nets is easily compensated with 2 hand weapons and I think in most situations I'd rather have hand weapons.

I can see their potential, but still find them kinda expensive for what they do.
Verdict: keep it simple, they are expensive enough as it is. Give them a task and keep it to it.

Atrahasis
21-12-2009, 13:14
I've been using 2 units of 6 with poison and slings. BS4 Poison multi-shot is incredible.

They've generally been "ambushing", though I've deployed one unit as scouts when a suitable position made itself available.

In the last 3 games, they've assassinated a hierophant, 2 wood elf mages, a unit of wild riders, and along with 2 swarm bases, wiped out a unit of 40 or so zombies in two rounds of combat.

The choice of where to put them being reserved until they show up is invaluable, as as well as killing a unit of wild riders, they kept another out of the game by popping up near them and march blocking - they're enough of a threat with 12" charge and 2 ws4 poisoned attacks each that the riders couldn't just turn around and walk away.

I was using 3 units, but dropped one in favour of a unit of censer bearers, but I don't think I'll be dropping any more - I have a special slot spare and if anything I'll be freeing up points for another unit of censers or to bring the 3rd unit of runners back in.

The Deathrunner upgrade is too expensive to be worthwhile IMO, and even more so if you give him an expensive magic weapon.

Snare nets aren't really worth it either - if you view the extra attack as a hatred reroll, then you'll probably see that with poison, reducing the enemy's I and WS is a fairly pointless trade unless you have some of the old models that you really want to use in a strict WYSIWYG environment.

shadow hunter
21-12-2009, 16:33
It is against forum rule #13:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/faq.php?faq=rules

How fitting that a Skaven player breaks that number rule :D

I've not tried the gutter runners yet (only got 5) as not sure how to use them. Will keep an eye on this. I like the idea of slings above though.

Caligula
21-12-2009, 19:26
Hmmm, it seems as though my initial thoughts on the Gutter Runners may have been a bit...off. From what I'm seeing here, the Deathrunner with the Weeping Blade is a poor idea, and it's best to arm them with slings.

Having taken another look at the rules for slings, and combined with Poison....well, yeah, I can see the appeal there!:) I may have to rethink my whole plan in regards to adding unit or two of Gutter Runners to my army now.

There's a lot to pour over here in terms of ideas in regards to Gutter Runners, and I appreciate the conversation. It's been insanely helpful thus far, and I think I've changed my mind in regards to how I'm going to arm my Gutter Runners when the time comes. The double poisoned shots of slings is really, really appealing. I'll have to think on this...

It's unfortunate, though, that my initial desire to have a Gutter Runner death squad with a mini character champion with a pretty decent magic item in it might not be all that good, and a bit of a waste. Of course, I'm sure such a unit I mentioned wouldn't be completely useless, but the cheaper unit with the poisoned slings would most likely be much better in terms of use of points and effectiveness. Hmmm...

shadow hunter: Trust me, the irony wasn't lost on me for that one either;)