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zeekill
23-12-2009, 18:27
So how does Empire deal with your everyday, totally cheesy, annoying as hell, under priced Dual Hydra List? I have analyzed the Hydra's defence as follows:

T5: So S4 or less wont really do enough.
4+ Save: Not an amazing save, but it is still a save.
Regen: So those amazing cannonballs can't always one-shot it.
5 Wounds: So the cannonballs again dont have a high chance of killing it outright.
Skirmish (M&H): Its usually in cover, so you cant really hope shooting at it will destroy it.
Not ItP: So if you try to charge it, it can still flee.
Terror: So you cant auto-break it using Terror
_______
Now if we analyze our offensive capabilities to take out each of his defensive ones:

T5: We could use a cannonball! But he has 5 Wounds with Regen, so it will most likely take 2-3 to kill a hydra.
4+ Save: Even if we take it out he still has a Regen and is T5!
Regen: Flaming attacks! Yes! Wait... The only flaming attacks we have is magic, so it is only S4 and only causes D6 or 2D6 depending on the spell.
5 Wounds: Use something that multiwounds like a cannonball! But he still has Regen and one cannonball causes D6, so there is only a 1/6 chance it will kill the hydra.
Skirmish: No way to deal with this.
Not ItP: No way to deal with this
Terror: No way to deal with this other than keep the general close.
_________
Now we can also try stalling it it combat with a cheap block, but the hydra has 7 WS4 S5 attacks and the Handlers together have 6 WS4 S3 Armor Piercing attacks, all with Hatred, so it will eat though your units on first turn probably.

We can also try to cast beast cowers on it, but the scroll caddy is always there protecting them, so they are safe for the first turn or two.

Then there's the steam tank, but it is nearly DOUBLE the cost of the hydra and will probably get charged and destroyed before it even gets to them.

Malorian
23-12-2009, 18:44
Cannon the buggers in the face. Even if you don't kill it you'll take off enough wounds so that its flame attack won't do much.

If 1-2 cannon shots don't take them down and they make it into combat then beat them with combat res.


I also don't see the hydra destroying the stank as easily as you seem to think they will.

snottlebocket
23-12-2009, 18:46
This is one of the reasons why it's worth bringing a few minimum sized units of knights. If volume fire doesn't bring them down in time, start angling small units in front of them to make sure they don't get anywhere important.

Lord Dan
23-12-2009, 18:48
I'm not sure what you're looking for outside of cannon-ing them to death. Frankly you have the most surefire method of killing a hydra as your guns do D6 wounds each. If he's taking 2 hydras take 4 cannons. That's 2 cannons per hydra, for 3 or so turns out of the game. 6 cannon shots will kill a hydra. Heck, even the humble handgun volley will drop one of them eventually. When all else fails unload the helblaster with an engineer manning it for the BS.

Malorian
23-12-2009, 18:49
Or better yet use pistoliers (shoot and flee and shoot and flee and...)

skank
23-12-2009, 18:53
hit it in the front with a well armoured/warded character (probabally on steed) and a unit in the flank as per the Multiple charges on skirmishers rule in the FAQs. As the hydra can only attack the character the flanking unit will hopefully kill the handlers and provide the CR to break the beast.

snottlebocket
23-12-2009, 18:58
Or better yet use pistoliers (shoot and flee and shoot and flee and...)

I prefer knights really, they fill core instead of using up special slots. Between their points cost and the fact that they take up a special slot, pistoliers can't afford to go prancing around in plain sight kiting monsters.

Dark elves have far too many ways to instantly wipe out small unarmoured units prancing around in line of sight. Knights on the other hand won't be bothered by those ways too much.

zeekill
23-12-2009, 19:02
I also don't see the hydra destroying the stank as easily as you seem to think they will.

Not charged by the hydras, charged by everything else in his army. Lords on Dark Steeds, Cold one Knights, all that nasty stuff that will decimate the Steam Tank.


Or better yet use pistoliers (shoot and flee and shoot and flee and...)

Are you serious? Pistoliers SUCK.

BS3: Hitting on 4+
Moved: Hitting on 5+
Multishot: Hitting on 6+

So you are always going for a large target because they are useless against everything else (And hitting on a 5+ against large targets is still not good). And they are still bad when it comes to hydras:

BS3: Hitting on 4+
Moved: Hitting on 5+
Multishot: Hitting on 6+
Light Cover: Hitting on 6+ followed by 4+
Large Target: Hitting on 6+

Furthermore, why would the hydra ever charge them? The hydra would just move to its side and flame them to death.

grumbaki
23-12-2009, 19:09
Ok, I've had some experience facing hydras.

1) Cannons. One good shot will take it down. Just hope he doesn't regen it.
2) Sword of Fate. A 40pt item that can take the thing down.
3) Mace of Helstrum. 60pts, but it equals a cannon shot.
4) Lore of Fire. Sure, it is only str 4, but all of the hits go on the hydra. You'll wound on 5's and he'll get a 5+ save back. But the more wounds it takes the less scary it gets, so it is worth throwing a few spells at it.
6) 5 knights with the warbanner. He'll need 4's to hit you and 3's to wound, and you get a 3+ AS. With your str 5 attacks you could probably squeeze in a wound or two and maybe even break the hydra (and then run it down!). It might not always work, but for 180pts it is pretty close to the hydra and you'll be using a core choice compared to his rare choice. So 50-50 chance seems pretty balanced for that match up.

But don't bank on any one of them working. In 1 game I had a hydra flank a unit of knights, but the sword of fate killed it in one turn. In a different game I had a hydra eat an arch lector with the mace and a warrior priest with the sword. It really all comes down to how well he can regenerate his wounds .

----------

And pistoliers are great! They don't get -1 to hit for moving because they are fast cav, so they only get -1 for multi shot. A unit of 5 pistoliers pumps out this:

8 str 4 AP shots hitting on 5's (4's against hydra)
4 str 4 AP shots hitting on 4's (3's against hydra)

That is about 7 hits, or 3 wounds, which after saves will be 1-2. Now, you might say "But Grumbaki, he'll just flame me!" Well I hear you. Remember this: 1) To get to your flank he needs to move there, but you have him march blocked. 2) If he charges you, just flee. 3) For every wound you do his breath weapon goes down by 1 point in strength. 4) For every turn his hydra spends dancing with your pistoliers, that is a turn that it is not eating your state troops.

So just take any or all of the advice given and you (might) be fine.

Malorian
23-12-2009, 19:11
Pistoliers suck? What drugs are you on? :p


An remember we are talking about redirecting the hydra after you hit it with a cannon so the flame breath won't really do that much. All the pistoliers need to do is block and redirect long enough for another cannon to hit them and finish them off.

Also remember they have 360 LOS for shooting so they can block the hydra and shoot something else.

grumbaki
23-12-2009, 19:18
Listen to Malorian on this one. Sure, his avatar might look like a baby, but he is wise beyond his years. (And if you read his BR he usually wins, which is a good indication that he knows what he is doing)

puppetmaster24
23-12-2009, 19:54
doesnt sword of fate only work against a character of your choice.

The Red Scourge
23-12-2009, 21:03
And pistoliers are great! They don't get -1 to hit for moving because they are fast cav, so they only get -1 for multi shot. A unit of 5 pistoliers pumps out this:

Wrong. Fast cav do get the -1 penalty for moving and shooting. They are however able to march and shoot.

Pistoliers do not get the -1 penalty for moving and shooting, because they are pistoliers and carry, you know, pistols ;)

Stumpy
23-12-2009, 22:28
If you use guns, do that. If you use knights, do that. If you use magic, do that. If you have none of the above, build your army better.

Xzazzarai
23-12-2009, 22:44
Shoot it down a few wounds. With enough thrown at it, it WILL start to lose wounds. And whens its down to 2-3wounds, pistoliers can handle it sience the breath isn't very dangerous any longer.
Allso, with a bad breath it will most probably go into combat in order to not remain somewhat useless.
In CC, any ranked unit that can hold up the first turn will beat it and hopefully run it down.

So those first 2-3 wounds are VERY important. I'm DE player myself and belive me, a few wounds off it cripples it badly!

Souppilgrim
23-12-2009, 23:14
Like most have said in this thread, empire has some good ways to kill the hydra. Is it undercosted thus causing you to use up more points killing it than it cost to buy the hydra? Probably, but that's cause it's undercosted.

Wyrmnax
23-12-2009, 23:43
It has been said: Cannons.

Even if it doesnt outright kill it - A couple of rounds of shooting should have reduced the breath strenght enough that it will be tolerable. The breath is the worst part of it against low T/low save troops. And if the Hydra is doing S1 or 2 breaths, the DE will want it in melee. You can probably take 2 wounds off it in melee with anything that is somewhat decent, or even combat rez it down.

scarvet
24-12-2009, 01:34
Seven different people use this account..
I have one question for all 7 of you, why? Warseer is free to sign up, get 6 more accounts for us and yourself, please?

zeekill
24-12-2009, 02:45
I have one question for all 7 of you, why? Warseer is free to sign up, get 6 more accounts for us and yourself, please?

Idk why they do. I only go on every 3-4 weeks for a few days to resolve a small issue such as this so I just use this one. As for them, I guess they just dont care enough to. Not my problem.

By the way I just noticed my posts are at 666 right now lol. Imagine that its 666 the only time I actually looked there.

Lord Dan
24-12-2009, 02:51
For the other people posting, I have no idea WHY you are posting after the same thing has been said over and over for about a full page now.

You know I was going to back you up and admonish Nathangonmad for his rudeness, but this thoughtless and ungrateful comment had changed my mind. If you really need help accomplishing a task that an army is fairly specifically designed to accomplish it might be time to take up something new. Perhaps some lessons in etiquette?

The SkaerKrow
24-12-2009, 12:08
Load a Bright Wizard into a Cannon, and shoot him at the Hydra. Let's see the big goofy reptile regenerate from that...

zeekill
24-12-2009, 13:32
You know I was going to back you up and admonish Nathangonmad for his rudeness, but this thoughtless and ungrateful comment had changed my mind. If you really need help accomplishing a task that an army is fairly specifically designed to accomplish it might be time to take up something new. Perhaps some lessons in etiquette?

No I mean why are people posting the same thing after that specific thing has been posted a thousand times. After about 8 out of the first 10 posts said something about cannons, I dont understand why people keep just saying cannons. If you have a different view on the subject with your own idea, post away.

nick_robinsonchia
24-12-2009, 16:44
Because sometimes different answers said or put a different way make more sEnse to the reader. For example mathematical based answers makemore sense to me as it's grounded in fact and odds. Other posters nght prefer a more gut orientated approach which I can understand also. Personally how I like to handle a hydra is 2 cannons on one and hochlands on beastmasters + doomfire/ burning head on the other allowing ur firebase of handgunners/outriders/pistoliers to focus on the nonskirmishing toughness 3 troops that compris the rest of the army. Personally I don't like to contemplate meleeing a hydra as a DE army well played will generally dictate who fights what. If either of them make it close enough to charge twin hellblasters is generally enough to finish it off. I guess maximizing ur tools is the right answer. Small arms fire is better directed elsewhere as targets Are juicier. Once u figure it out what works for u it becomes much easier.

Also I'd suggest being more grateful that people even took the time to answer a post which is more than alot of posters get.

N

sulla
24-12-2009, 18:18
If the empire player is struggling against 2 hydra, I guarantee the DE player will be struggling against 2 steam tanks... Perhaps the 2 players just need to better agree on what types of battles they want to have. At the moment, it sounds like one is bringing a more hardcore army than the other.

Nathangonmad
25-12-2009, 00:36
No I mean why are people posting the same thing after that specific thing has been posted a thousand times. After about 8 out of the first 10 posts said something about cannons, I dont understand why people keep just saying cannons. If you have a different view on the subject with your own idea, post away.

Maybe because cannons are the bleeding answer? Its like saying ''When I ask whats 2+2 why do people keep answering 4?''

SatireSphere
25-12-2009, 23:05
A pegasus captain with the sword of fate will do the trick against one of them, as for the other you'll have to rely on the good ol' empire ball of iron.

nick_robinsonchia
26-12-2009, 01:00
Can't help but chime in here and say I can't really agree with the peg captain on peg idea. Odds wise u are looking at doing just under 2 wounds too it then the hydra will take all 3 from the peg and then auto break u. I like the idea of the captain as an idea but it just doesn't seem to hold up on the battlefield.

N

elvinltl
26-12-2009, 07:35
I play Dark Elves and I will agree that my opponents hate my Hydras to the core. Problem is, sending my Hydra out there alone will not do much good but when supported with large chunks of infantry or even mobile Harpies and Dark Riders, these multi-headed beasts can be a bitch.

Maybe you would like to share his army composition?

I think one of the reasons why people are having trouble with Dual Hydra list is because their Army is well-balanced and versatile. Bringing lots of cannon is a viable tatic but you compromise on other aspects. I play a khanite army and when faced with cannon balls, I also give my Hydra a 5+ Ward Save as an assurance as well because a COB is around.

With this being said, I agree with Sulla. It is just a more specialised army... Thank goodness Druchii.net provides a good write up on the army composition possibility of Dark Elves. Today you beat a dual Hydra list and tomorrow you face a Magic Heavy List. The following day a Khanite army infantry heavy list. The day after you face a Shades Death Star army. There is simply no end to it.

ftayl5
27-12-2009, 06:54
swarm it, use a unit of 20 militia (if you have one) it can only kill so many of them, then combat res kicks in, from experience, they seem to run easily. (broke one with a 20 zombie unit) (it never rallied) (it fled back to naggaroth) (yay)

also this assumes that they are dumb and dont support there big beasty,

Seth the Dark
28-12-2009, 02:22
I'm sorry but the sheer number of attacks a Hydra can dish out often times negates the static combat res of most units.

Skyth
28-12-2009, 03:56
Cannons are good to take out big beasies...They are pretty much the answer built into the Empuire list. Try to hit a handler along with the hydra. Granted, Karl Franz could do a number on one of them with Ghaz Mal.

Steam Tanks are the other answer...They charge farther than the hydra does too. On a 15" charge, I believe a Stank will do on average 3 wounds through regen (If memory serves).

I wouldn't trust Pistoliers against it though, as terror makes it a dicey question...Leadership 7 doesn't go far.

xragg
29-12-2009, 06:18
No I mean why are people posting the same thing after that specific thing has been posted a thousand times. After about 8 out of the first 10 posts said something about cannons, I dont understand why people keep just saying cannons. If you have a different view on the subject with your own idea, post away.

I actually like seeing a few people support someone else's opinion. If I asked a question, and 4 people all gave me 4 different answers, the varying answers may confuse me even more. Now if 8 people all gave a similar answer and 3 others gave different answers, I would be inclined to think the majority was probally correct.

To me, zeekill#5 (the OP zeekill) seemed very pessimistic about his options with empire, when empire is most likely the army with the most tools to deal with large, scary monsters.

Stumpy
29-12-2009, 06:41
Except skaven.
Cannons are AN answer, not THE answer. Tend to get killed, blow up, miss or be unable to draw line of sight. I never work my cannon into my battle plans, except maybe to scare people from doing things.
Other options: Light firepower; pistoliers annoying it, handguns, xbows etc.
Steam tank: Just charge and giggle. Also good to get charged and use something else to charge the hydra when they realise they can't kill it and they've lost hatred.
Lore of fire/metal/light + hammer of sigmar: S4 flaming with rerolls to wound is very helpful.
Charge it with knights: 5-6 knights with a standard can sneak in 1 wound, 1+ saves and WS4 lets them take only 1-2 wounds then you win. Better if they're inner circle, with a warbanner, led by a character or whatever.
Drag hatred: the usual.

RGB
29-12-2009, 20:24
I like crossbows.

Hitting on 4s long range, wounding on 5s, 5+ As, Regen, remember his strength goes down with wounds. 20 shots should result it a wound a turn, for at least two turns, and then you can safely pistolier the rest of the wounds away (unless they're busy with more important things).

Cannons...are only worth firing at the hydra because there's no other good targets that a DE list normally has (chariots, RBTs and Dragons are somewhat uncommon). In fact, a cannon is only slightly more likely to kill a hyrda than it is to self-destruct. Sure you can bring multiples, but that's also quite an investment.

w3rm
29-12-2009, 20:56
Place your cannons so that they hit the handler and the hydra. Pick them off and the hydra can be greatly reduced to a sitting duck or incredibly easily baited.

Jaedar
29-12-2009, 21:06
I, like many one else would go with cannons :D

Cole Train
30-12-2009, 20:17
I think one of the reasons why people are having trouble with Dual Hydra list is because their Army is well-balanced and versatile.

Are you serious? You have GOT to be kidding. The reason people have trouble with the double hydra list is because hydras should be 275 points apiece, not 175. They are the second most underpriced thing it the game, behind the Greater Daemons. So when you bring 2 of them, you are actually playing 200 points over the limit, but because it is 175 in the book, it is still legal.

The way I have dealt with it is whenever playing a friendly game against DE and I see my opponent pull 2 hydras out of his case, I say "not playing against you, sorry" and start packing my stuff up. In tournaments, I use cannons and fire magic. Even at S4 a good average of 7 hits will cause 1-2 wounds. So 2-3 magic missiles should kill it. You can also get lucky with pit of shades, but you gotta get past a few scrolls first.

grumbaki
30-12-2009, 20:53
One more idea, to be used only against gits who always pack 2 hydras or 2 aboms.

Wizard lord, law of fire, sword of justice ("re-roll rolls to wound")

Now, this doesn't say it is from attacks that he does or anything like that, just rolls to wound. This is especially good against skaven players who like to restart the storm banner (thus depriving you of cannons to kill the 2 HPA). A few spells later and you've got a well cooked monster.

Also great against plague monks! Get off wall of fire on a unit of them and place a unit of pistoliers in front of them. They are frenzied so they have to charge. They do so and every one of them takes a str 4 hit that you get to re-roll wounds with. So there you go, and then you'll be giving him something to complain about! :D

(note: not condoned for friendly games or for use against anyone whom you consider a friend)

Slacker
31-12-2009, 05:19
Regarding pistoleers-correct me if I'm wrong, but don't pistols avoid some of the shooting penalties? The - to hit and for multiple shots, IIRC? I don't use them, but I vaguely remember reading that.

Zatrais
31-12-2009, 09:39
They ignore the penalty for moving and shooting. That coupled with pistols not having a long range penalty means you'll be hitting on 5s for normal targets, 4 for large targets.

For hydra killing I'll use whatever is most conveniently placed once the units have been placed. Most of the time that means either cannons, steam tank, I.C. Knights or flagellants.

leeoaks
31-12-2009, 20:36
As a dark elf player i fear the combined threats that an empire list has to dealing with a hydra (i only take 1!). If you have a balanced list you shouldn't have problems with it at all. with the fact you have a lot of ways to gradually weaken a hydra means the rest of my specialised troop types cant remove all the threats to the hydra early on. i hope that you do exactly what you are doing and fixate on the fatty and percieve that he is harder than he is, while the rest of my army rips you a new one.

Not sure if this point of view helps?

Lee

jthdotcom
01-01-2010, 13:09
Karl Franz, Ghal Maraz. Job done.

Oh, and put him on his dragon just to make sure

Caralon
13-01-2010, 03:24
I apologize initially for not reading this whole thread, but I have a semi-specific situation I'd like to get some advice on about Empire v. Hydras. I'm in a submitted tournament game tomorrow, and from observing a previous game I know that my DE opponent has two Hyrdas, a Dread Lord hero, and a unit of shades scouting.

I would prefer to smash them with cannons, but in my submitted army I brought only one. Running through my army, the things I have that might stand up a little against a Hyrda are:

1 great cannon
1 helblaster
1 Arch Lector in 30 Swords w/ Mace of Helstrum
1 Steam Tank
5 Knights
24 Greatswords w/ Warrior Priest
6 Outriders

What is my best strategy here? I am concerned about protecting my warmachines from scouts at the same time that I need to deal with more than one Hyrda. What should I do?

Slacker
13-01-2010, 03:43
The Hellblaster is actually better against the hydra than I think most people give it credit for. It's going to hit on 3s or 4s, wound on 4s, and the hydra will only get its regen. Better than nothing.

With the cannon, you've got some weapons. Your best bet is to lure one of them in and then run it over with the steam tank. With enough impact hits you're going to butter that thing's bacon. Hydra, the other other white meat.

SilverWarlock
13-01-2010, 03:59
Just a quick rules point:

Cannons against skirmishers hit whatever is on the line, line up the handlers. Kill 1 and he has to make a panic check (Ld 8-10, aim for whichever one is far from the general if you can) if you kill 2 he has to make a Ld6 bound monster check or get some terrible effect (frenzy stupid or immobile all make it much easier to deal with).

If someone says cannon sniping is lame, point out that 2 hydras is worse and snipe the things silly. Hochland rifles can do the job too (and with empire having 4 units of 10 handgunners with a champion in each isn't bad).

Other things have been mentioned and are correct. Anything wide enough can kill handlers in melee, fire negates regeneration, etc.

With the list above, snipe off the handlers from whichever one is furthest from the general with the Stank and cannon (bonus points for lining up the hydra or another unit in the same shot). The knights have a decent chance (one knight and his horse get to beat on the handlers so putting your champ on the end of the unit can be a good idea). The outriders can probably throw enough into it over the course of a game but you are better off killing dark riders and the like with them.

ChaosVC
13-01-2010, 06:18
Tell me why is empire having problem with hydra again? You have stank and lots of cannon my friend!

Freman Bloodglaive
13-01-2010, 06:34
The Empire solution to the pendant is quite simple. Runefang or sword of fate.

Wounding automatically or on a 2+ means that they have no strength value. No strength value means nothing to roll equal to or under to save against.

Arch Lector, sword of fate, van horstmann's speculum, gorgon shield, heavy armour and barded warhorse. He has all the tools needed to make a Dark Elf Noble very unhappy.

ChaosVC
13-01-2010, 07:13
Wounding automatically does not mean your attack have no strenght value, you still use the strength value modified or not of the character.

Freman Bloodglaive
14-01-2010, 00:07
No such ruling in the Dark Elf book. I realise that Dark Elf players would wish otherwise but there is no way to calculate a strength value that you have to roll under.

An attack that wounds automatically has no strength value.

There could be some leeway with the rune that always counts your strength as two higher than your targets toughness (strength 5 on Elves) but that's not what the Runefang or the Sword of Fate say. Wound automatically or wounds on 2+ gives you nothing to roll against.

I'll repeat myself. The runefang and the sword of fate do not modify your strength, they do not have a strength value, therefore the Pendant of Khaeleth simply doesn't work against them.


on a roll equal to or under the attack's Strength, the hit is ignored.

Note, the strength of the attack not the strength of the wielder.

I even checked the Dark Elf FAQ and they say the same thing. No strength value, no save.

Cole Train
14-01-2010, 02:03
No such ruling in the Dark Elf book. I realise that Dark Elf players would wish otherwise but there is no way to calculate a strength value that you have to roll under.

An attack that wounds automatically has no strength value.

There could be some leeway with the rune that always counts your strength as two higher than your targets toughness (strength 5 on Elves) but that's not what the Runefang or the Sword of Fate say. Wound automatically or wounds on 2+ gives you nothing to roll against.

I'll repeat myself. The runefang and the sword of fate do not modify your strength, they do not have a strength value, therefore the Pendant of Khaeleth simply doesn't work against them.

No, you are wrong. When you inflict a poison attack you make saves modified by the STR of the attacking model, even if you didnt roll at all. Same thing here. You have misinterpreted the FAQ. You still have your STR value, your attacks just always wound on a 2+ because of a magical effect.

Commodus Leitdorf
14-01-2010, 02:53
1 great cannon
1 helblaster
1 Arch Lector in 30 Swords w/ Mace of Helstrum
1 Steam Tank
5 Knights
24 Greatswords w/ Warrior Priest
6 Outriders


Cannons are the staple monster killer and quite good at it. Sure he has a 50% chance of ignoring the shot...but he also has a 50% chance of failing. Those odds are good enough for me

Helblasters are also good at it. He's a large target and easier to hit, plus the weight of shots means you have a better chance of bypassing his regen.

The key to making sure you get to use these tools while his scouts try to take out you machines is the cardinal warmachine rule. Never deploy your warmachines next to each other. His warmachine hunters can only go after one that way and ensures he doesn't overrun into the next machine (also, never count on your machines surviving past turn 2...if they do, consider it luck).

As for the Archlector w/ swords and the Greatswords w/ WP. He most likely will not let his Hydra anywhere near them (joys of having a large target fire breathing monster that can move through difficult terrain :cries:) If he does, it will most likely be in the flank of one of your blocks (It's US5 so a rank breaker and has 7 attacks with hatred...so it can easily eat through static CR) These option are doable...but situational.

5 Nilla knights work pretty well from my experience. There armour makes it hard for the hydra to cut through...you'd be surprised at the number of Hydra I've killed with them...or at the very least held the Hydra for a turn or two so it cant cause any trouble to my troops. It works even better with a WP in the unit.

Outriders are also VERY good at hydra killing. People always ignore the Outriders....until they experience the hail of lead they can dish out and their precious monster/really expensive knights all drop dead at their feet.

Basically all these tools can work at neutering a Hydra.

Cragspyder
14-01-2010, 03:37
I think template attacks are really the way to go vs. Hydras, since the Beastmasters have no protection against them. Burning Head has a good chance of killing one Handler, forcing a Panic test on LD 8. If you kill both Handlers, the Hydra takes a Monster Reaction test (on LD 6), so that gives him a 1/3 chance of being Stupid (on LD 6), 1/3 chance of never moving again, and 1/3 chance of being Frenzied and Hatred (the poorest of the 3, but at least you can bait it around). If it goes Stupid or passes the Monster Reaction test, it immediately has to take a Panic Check (again at Ld 6).

So that is good news all around. Also its no longer Monster and Handlers (just Monster) so it gets slowed down by difficult terrain like normal (I believe).

Cannons really are the best bet, though a Mortar (or Rocket Battery I suppose) has a good chance of killing the handlers off in the same way as Burning Head, due to the big template.

Also, anyone notice that Hellpit Abominations aren't Immune to Psychology, Unbreakable or Frenzied? So you can use Burning Head on them too and force it to take some panic checks? Or Salamanders, or Warpfire Throwers, or Screaming Skull Catapults....

CaptScott
14-01-2010, 03:56
I'm not sure about the handlers rules, but couldn't you use mortars to try and snipe the handlers? Nice big blast template, and the elves are only T3.

Freman Bloodglaive
14-01-2010, 04:26
No, you are wrong. When you inflict a poison attack you make saves modified by the STR of the attacking model, even if you didnt roll at all. Same thing here. You have misinterpreted the FAQ. You still have your STR value, your attacks just always wound on a 2+ because of a magical effect.

No, sword of fate is not a poisoned attack and it allows no armour save. Nor does the runefang.

You're wrong, get over it. There is no strength to the attack.

I'll make it easy for you, what is the strength of a weapon that wounds automatically?

ChaosVC
14-01-2010, 06:01
No, sword of fate is not a poisoned attack and it allows no armour save. Nor does the runefang.

You're wrong, get over it. There is no strength to the attack.

I'll make it easy for you, what is the strength of a weapon that wounds automatically?

To make it easy for you, its the strength of the bearer.

Freman Bloodglaive
14-01-2010, 07:04
It can't be the strength of the bearer, because as the rules for the pendant say, it's the strength of the attack and no strength is given.

For the record, with the above combination the Lector will have 4 WS7 attacks wounding on a 2+ and ignoring armour saves (doing D3 wounds) while the Dreadlord has 1 WS4 attack, probably at strength 6 if he's taken crimson death (and at 25 points why wouldn't he?).

Cole Train
14-01-2010, 11:14
No, sword of fate is not a poisoned attack and it allows no armour save. Nor does the runefang.

You're wrong, get over it. There is no strength to the attack.

I'll make it easy for you, what is the strength of a weapon that wounds automatically?

I know. I just made an example using a similar concept. If I were to say "well your S4 plaguebearers never got to wound because they successfully poisioned me so I get my full save" it would be wrong. Once again the same thing here. You're the one who needs to get over it and maybe you need to notice that everyone here has been on this side of the argument rather than yours.

And let me make it easy for you. If I hit you with a giant sword that is on fire, and the first hit cut you in half because your armor broke when I hit it and my sword just kept going, do you thing you would die from my strength or from the magical fire? The strength. Yet again, the same thing. Just because he has an effect that always wounds on a 2+, doesnt mean he doesnt have a strength value. His pendant will be able to make the save.

The strength of a close combat attack is always the strength of the wielder plus any effects from GW, Halberds, etc. It says attack instead of "str of the attacker" to prevent someone from going "Your S5 character shot me with a S3 bow and wounded me, but the character is still S5, so my save is going to be 5 or less"

Rodman49
14-01-2010, 19:19
Yo Fremen. Attacker with Runefang is Strength 4 (Wielder of the weapon). Same with Sword of Fate. I play Empire. This is generally how it is played. Pendant is trash anyway - anything that penalizes you for rolling a 6 on a save is not worth taking.

Regardless this thread is about Hydras. And here are your options for killing the buggers. In order of preference.

1. Cannons
2. Volley Guns
3. Steam Tanks
4. Arch Lector (Sword of Fate or Mace of Helstrum are both good choices)
5. Runefangs (General on Griffon or Mr. Helborg)
6. Small Arms Fire
7. Knightly Orders
8. Ranked Regiment

Remember the following - Hydra is a Large Target so small arms get +1 to hit. It is a skirmisher so it may be able to get cover - but remember it is not US1 so it does not benefit from the -1 to hit because Skirmisher. That means stuff like Small Arms and the Volley Gun hit on 4+ at long range, 3+ at short. Also remember if it charges out of terrain the terrain still counts double for movement because it is still a monster.

Dark Elves are a good army - but a Hydra is free points for you as an Empire player.

tmarichards
14-01-2010, 19:52
Pendant is trash anyway - anything that penalizes you for rolling a 6 on a save is not worth taking.



Lol... good joke

Slacker
15-01-2010, 06:50
Pendant is trash anyway - anything that penalizes you for rolling a 6 on a save is not worth taking.


Yeah, it just makes rolling a 1-5 good. You're out of your mind.

ChaosVC
15-01-2010, 07:37
Pendant is trash anyway - anything that penalizes you for rolling a 6 on a save is not worth taking.

You had me at hello...

Skyros
15-01-2010, 22:44
Are you serious? Pistoliers SUCK.

BS3: Hitting on 4+
Moved: Hitting on 5+
Multishot: Hitting on 6+

Pistols do not get penalties for moving or for being at long range. And as fast cavalry can march and still shoot, a unit of pistoliers that marches up next to a hydra is hitting on 5's. BS3 and penalty for multishot.

Or you could upgrade one pistolier to an outrider, and give him the repeating pistol. He gets 4 shots that hit on 4's. Now bless him with the hammer of sigmar...