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View Full Version : Who is more of a threat to the Imperium? Dark Eldar or Tau?



jason_sation
23-12-2009, 18:46
Both seem pretty small in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure if the other xenos and chaos were to suddenly disappear, the Imperium of Man could wipe these guys out in no time. But considering the climate, who is the bigger thorn in the side?

Tastyfish
23-12-2009, 19:01
To the Imperium itself, I'd say the Tau are the more significant threat due to being concentrated in an area that is already difficult to control. Whilst more planets may get raided by Dark Eldar and reduced to a state where you can't just send an army in to get it back as you would with the Tau, every planet the Tau take puts more of a strain on an already strained region and makes it more likely for another one to fall.

So yeah - Dark Eldar kill more people and probably cause a greater loss in resources than the Tau from their attacks, but the Tau are a bigger headache for the AdAdmin to deal with because you actually have to devote more resources to an area than just those to fight them off one particular world. Imperial worlds on the fringe surrounding the Tau Empire need fortifying whilst Imperial worlds just rely on numbers to keep them safe from Dark Eldar predations like a shoal of fish or herd of beasts.

Plus the Dark Eldar don't have a lot of vested interest in harming the Imperium logistically above and beyond the additional terror it causes. The Imperial armies are pretty much the sheperds of the Dark Eldar's favourite prey.

Nimm
23-12-2009, 19:16
Tau take systems away from the Imperium. The Dark Eldar take people.

newbee
23-12-2009, 19:37
i think that the imperium would see the dark eldar as craft world eldar they don't care between the difference... and they just know that eldar by any other name are powerful... and really, what have the tau really done?

The Red Pilgrim
23-12-2009, 19:50
Mankind fears no xeno..

In terms of annoyance though - Tau win hands down. They have all of the ego of the Eldar; yet none of the backing to make it anything other than delusions of grandeur.

That and they look like fish-men..

DarkMatter2
23-12-2009, 20:03
The Tau. The Tau are a larger and I believe more long term threat to the Imperium's continued existence. Their advance seems to have been slightly checked lately though, by Calgar and the Wondermarines.

chaos0xomega
23-12-2009, 20:31
I'd say Tau, at least until GW gets around to re-doing DE and change their fluff entirely... come on, you know its bound to happen...

Chucklemoney
23-12-2009, 20:50
Would have to say Tau, they have huge growth potential in terms of their empire and also more ways to propogate disharmony on imperial worlds. A constant threat in other words.

DE I see as being a big threat to a number of worlds for a short period of time before dis-appearing from the radar for quite a while, rather like their codex.....:shifty:

IJW
23-12-2009, 21:11
The Tau have an interstellar empire, and are actively expanding it.

The Dark Eldar have one planet and no apparent interest in colonising any more.

Urath
23-12-2009, 21:40
The Tau have an interstellar empire, and are actively expanding it.

The Dark Eldar have one planet and no apparent interest in colonising any more.

Indeed, a very small Empire; but one nevertheless. Factor in this, though;

The Dark Eldar have a system of intergalactic pathways that allow them to attack almost anywhere in the Imperium, are located in a realm that is safe from the Imperium; hell, Commorragh itself is larger than a planet by far. That and also, the Dark Eldar destroyed an entire Segmentum battle fleet and it's naval yard without mention of any significant losses of their own.

The Tau have expanded into Imperial space only slightly.

Clockwork-Knight
23-12-2009, 22:16
The Tau have one most insidious danger. They preach tolerance and coexistance with xenos. That alone makes them more dangerous than any Dark Eldar raid, which vary in effectivity (some take a pitiful 16.000 people, while others depopulate entire worlds).
Entire worlds and systems willingly declare their alliance to the grey-blue-skinnies.

However, the Tau are confined to Segmentum Ultima, so they're actually only a threat to the systems there, whereas the Dark Eldar raid everywhere.

Yet, the Dark Eldar aren't that insignificant anymore as they were in 3rd edition, as they are responsible for destroying the naval base at Bakka, therefore disrupting segmentum fleet command, delaying repairs, and forcing the massive and slow behemoth that is the Imperial Fleet to re-organize in that segmentum, so there will be a massive increase on raids and invasions everywhere in Tempestus, from Tyranid hive fleets, Ork freebootaz, Necron Raiders, Human Pirates, Chaos Marauder, Dark Eldar Plunderer, and many more xeno and human renegades plunging the Segmentum in dissaray, before the fleets can be coordinated once more.

At least, in theory.
I wouldn't put it out of the way that Games Workshop downplays the trashing of the Bakka bases as something minor and irrelevant where only an old useless cockoo clock fell down from all their attacks, and Marneus Calgar clapping with his powerfists, so that all Dark Eldar died like flies.

chaos0xomega
23-12-2009, 22:30
Well, one thing that should be pointed out, is that the Tau are united, whereas the dark eldar (at least in some of the fluff that came about during the Medusa V campaign) are fractured and not afraid to eliminate their own leadership for personal gain...

blackcherry
23-12-2009, 22:52
Tau take systems away from the Imperium. The Dark Eldar take people.

Now at the end of the day the Imperium value worlds and systems over people. Tau take both systems and people. Dark eldar take people alone and very occasionally strike larger targets to allow for whole sector wide raids.

Nehemiah
23-12-2009, 23:09
I would say the Tau are a bigger thorn, but the Dark Eldar are a much more annoying one because of their unpredictable attack patterns and the disruption left in their wake. Tau may be luring other planets to their cause, but it is in a isolated area that the Imperium can keep an easy watch on.

spetswalshe
23-12-2009, 23:22
Clockwork is right - it's the Tau's ideology that makes them the bigger threat.

The Tau Empire represents a real and genuine alternative to the Imperium of Man; one which is arguably much more pleasant and profitable for the Guv'ner and his planet's population. Sure, the Dark Eldar probably control human worlds though fear, but that fear is cumulative; they always need to make sure the humans fear the Dark Eldar more than whatever else is hanging around the system. The Tau, on the other hand, promise (on the surface at least) the kind of life that men will fight for, rather than the kind of life where they'll fight to stop it getting even worse.

The Imperium relies to an extent on the fact that it is humanity, for the most part - there are no other major human governments or alliances (that don't involve S&M or blood for the blood god), and a world that turns it's back on the Imperium is seen as turning it's back on other humans; a traitor is a traitor to humanity. The Tau Empire, however, pushes an ideal rather than a particular species, so citizens choosing to side with the Empire feel as though they are making a choice, a powerful tool in itself. And how many citizens of the Imperium are genuinely happy with their lot?

Take away the religious zealotry and anti-xenos brain-washing propaganda, and there's the very real idea that, if they all took a vote, most people would rather secede - killing the Imperium of Man far quicker and more effectively than any number of cyclonic torpedoes. Normally, one would expend resources to gain a world, because military force is used far more often than diplomacy - but the Tau can gain a world (and one in working order, with all it's factories intact and workers to fill them) with a clutch of promises and fancy words.

Goddamn commufacist tunacows.

enygma7
23-12-2009, 23:33
Whilst the Imperium can't really deal with the dark eldar (safe as they are in the web way) they don't represent a major threat to the Imperium. They are just pirates, nibbling at the Imperiums edges.

The Tau are a major threat to the Imperium in the long term. They are an idelogical alternative to the Imperium and threaten the very beliefs the Imperium is founded on - they represent hope, progress, an enlightened society and co-operative harmony between species. They are also a vibrant, progressive society which will eventually outstrip the stagnant imperium if left unchecked. Finally, there is something very dodgy about the tau. The star cluster they originate from shows signs of artificial construction/manipulation, the region seems designed to shelter them and many suspect events seem to be urging the tau onwards (the ethereals just turn up and unite them, the secret to long rang space travel just falls into their lap....). Someone wants the tau to succeed. At the moment the tau are vulnerable, but if left unchecked their power would escalate as they take more worlds from the imperium and add them to their own empire.

Of course, Tyranids will have their new codex and will have eaten the galaxy by then.

EDIT: Ninjad a bit by spetswalshe.

Tanith Ghost
23-12-2009, 23:39
The tau, hands down. For all their 'nicer' alternatives, their naive view of things would get humanity wiped out. They cause people to abandon their Emperor-given duty in favor of 'freedom'. They make it possible for humans to forget why the Imperium must be so harsh,
and that is far worse than any terror raid.

FarseerMatt
24-12-2009, 00:15
Agreed.

Now what happens if the new DE codex reveals that they have grown to far larger numbers than previously imagined (several craftworlds worth at least), and retools them from pirates into supremacist invaders who want to enslave all lesser species under the Eldar "master race"? Of course, without spirit stones or the shielding effect of the webway, they are going to have to torture and eat a lot of slave souls to keep Slaanesh at bay...

:cool:

Alathir
24-12-2009, 03:49
The Tau; because they are the only species who makes any sense in this god-forsaken universe!

Max1mum
24-12-2009, 08:07
The tau are blue, ...how does that compute and make sense ?! ;-)

Neither are any threat worth mentioning. The biggest would be the Tau, but in the grant scheme of things they arn't worth the fuss.

Tau lack warp trafel. That alone makes them insignificant.

spetswalshe
24-12-2009, 13:48
Tau lack warp trafel. That alone makes them insignificant.

Not neccessarily. It wouldn't surprise me if they came up with some kind of freaky Necron teleport/wormhole technology, or some other get-out. Eldar lack 'proper' warp travel, too.

I've just realised; tunacow rhymes with Tau (yes, took this long).

is it a cowincidence?

or was it intunaentional?

AspiringBloombergAnalyst
26-12-2009, 05:48
Well factor in Battlefleet Gothic.

The Tau Fleet have BY FAR the best overall ships in the entire game. Their Explorer class battleships are the best battleship class by far, their cruisers are also very good. Tau ships are always slow and terrible at boarding but very powerful in firepower output.

Dark Eldar doesn't even have a ship above light-cruiser class. That's right they don't even have any REAL capital ships. They are only a purely raiding fleet that will never take on a Imperial fleet.

So obviously Tau are stronger, more organized, and have a real kick-butt top of the line fleet while the Dark Eldar are basically pirates without any expensive fancy battleships. Its important to note though that Tau can sometimes be used as ALLIES against necrons and Tyranids and they aren't "kill everyone in a war of everyone against everyone" type of alien we're so used to in the grim dark universe and they can actually be reasoned with.

This is all mute compared to the giant threat of the tyranid swarms that will eventually over-run the defenses and the inevitable success of Abaddon's black crusade considering how you can never ever kill daemons.

Clockwork-Knight
26-12-2009, 16:08
Lore-wise, the Tau ships are considered to be not that good, and the Dark Eldar ships are a terror for their enemies, because of their fighters, bombers, and special torpedoes, and more important, their ability to pop up right under the nose of their enemy thanks to hidden webway gates in space the Dark Eldar use. Game-wise, they're actually both not that bad to play.

Allen
27-12-2009, 16:25
hell, Commorragh itself is larger than a planet by far

Last time I checked, Commorragh was a vast city. Huge, but still a city.


That and also, the Dark Eldar destroyed an entire Segmentum battle fleet and it's naval yard without mention of any significant losses of their own

A Segmentum? As in "Segmentum Solar" or "Segmentum Pacificus"? The five administrative districts that are effectively huge parts of the Milky Way?

I've never heard of a whole segmentum fleet destroyed in a single battle. Never heard of a segmentum dockyard (that is, the naval HQ for that part of the Galaxy) destroyed...except for the attack at Cypra Mundi, Naval HQ of Segmentum Obscurus during the last Dark Crusade of Abbadon. And it was not destroyed.

A whole segmentum fleet and naval HQ destroyed in a single strike...well, that's basically a crippling military diaster able to put the Imperium on its knees.


The Tau have expanded into Imperial space only slightly.

To be honest, the Tau have expanded in human space only slightly because they can't use the warp in order to travel. GW depicts them like the Ottomans after Manzikert...a small power, destinet to topple a great but stagnating Empire. That, of course, will continue unless GW's lazy writers could find another candidate for plot-induced immortality.
AFAIK the Ultramarines are marching right in this direction. Chances are that the dynamic advance of the Tau will soon be halted by the blue supersoldiers.

Chem-Dog
27-12-2009, 17:16
Tau take systems away from the Imperium. The Dark Eldar take people.

QFT, you can put new people into a depleted system.


i think that the imperium would see the dark eldar as craft world eldar they don't care between the difference... and they just know that eldar by any other name are powerful... and really, what have the tau really done?

The Imperium knows the difference, it just chooses not to worry about such trivialities. Xenos = unclean and shall be purged, it's like knowing the difference between A Howling Banshee and a Swooping Hawk.


The Tau have one most insidious danger. They preach tolerance and coexistance with xenos. That alone makes them more dangerous than any Dark Eldar raid, which vary in effectivity (some take a pitiful 16.000 people, while others depopulate entire worlds).
Entire worlds and systems willingly declare their alliance to the grey-blue-skinnies.

However, the Tau are confined to Segmentum Ultima, so they're actually only a threat to the systems there, whereas the Dark Eldar raid everywhere.


Ah, but consider the Tau with their inclusive collectivist attitude (if we're being black and white about it ;)) and adaptive approach to warefare, there will come a time when they capture or even annex a world with a significant Mechanicus installation, perhaps even a Forgeworld, they would probably find all sorts of goodies the AM weren't even aware they had simply because they aren't superstitious about technology, Tau could get reliable FTL travel in the blink of an eye.


Well, one thing that should be pointed out, is that the Tau are united, whereas the dark eldar (at least in some of the fluff that came about during the Medusa V campaign) are fractured and not afraid to eliminate their own leadership for personal gain...

Tau are a young race and their first foray into interstellar expansion has already started to show some cracks in their idealism, O'Shova has effectively left the Tau cause to follow his own agenda, if you believe the subtext he's even unwittingly become a pawn of Chaos. It's believable that others would join his cause or strike out on their own in a similar way.


The Tau; because they are the only species who makes any sense in this god-forsaken universe!

There's two or three C'tan, Four plus Chaos, One Emperor, One Laughing and a Couple of Orks. All in all I'd say the 40K universe is a little over subscribed in the god department.


Last time I checked, Commorragh was a vast city. Huge, but still a city.


And the maximum size of a city is what?
The usual constraints of a city are the territory it's built up in, you can't expand into turf you don't own. So assuming you own all the turf what limits it then?
Cities that can't expand Horizontally will expand Vertically, so you'll have sub levels under the ground and/or higher taller buildings, in the Imperium this is expressed as hive cities, far more densely populated than any real life human conurbation, archology level living.
So your Hive City is sprawling ever outwards until it's sprawl collides with that of another Hive City and the two slowly become enmeshed to make one even larger City and then, eventually (assuming exponential growth with no wars or other impediments) all Hive cities on a world will expand into each other and create a super mega hive city, an entirely urbanised planet (if you like crossing your science fiction, I think Coruscant pretty much does this). Now this super mega city is still constrained by the size of the planet, eventually you'll burrow into the crust as much as is possible and as high into the sky as is feasible and there is nowhere left to expand, this isn't necessarily the case in the webway network where the Dark Eldar reside, so I would contend that a city CAN be larger than a planet.


In answer to the OP, the Tau are far more dangerous because they can convert the Imperium's workforce depriving them of resources and materiel.

nagash66
27-12-2009, 18:37
Well factor in Battlefleet Gothic.

The Tau Fleet have BY FAR the best overall ships in the entire game. Their Explorer class battleships are the best battleship class by far, their cruisers are also very good.


It is obvious you have no idea what you are on about, as you are using rules to support a theory on bacround material, this is bad. It is even worse when the ACTUAL BFG backround not only doesnt support this but is 100% against the Tau fanboy nonsense you wrote above.

The pinnacle of Tau technology, the
Hero class was the product of Tau
experience during the Damocles Gulf
Crusade. The Tau were determined that
they should have a ship that could match
the Imperial Lunar class. As it became
evident, they failed but they did succeed in
producing a credible ship of the line.

BFG TAU list in armada page 103. I especially like thus part "The pinnacle of Tau technology". So what gothic really tells us is that the technological best ship they got cant go head to head with a luna. Truly the Tau fleets are a terror to behold:shifty:

What they got is ether sub par or about even with Imperial ships in a battle, while no Tau vessel can move as fast as Imperial can due to warp travel. Feth allot of their ships can even move around on a system scale on their own and need to be towed. Tau fleet superiorety is a bad joke.

Backround plz use it. Tau fleets are a threat when they outnumber the navy and only then. In 1 vs 1 fleet action they will lose 99% of time.

a helpless goat
27-12-2009, 21:57
As for the hero class being inferior, just because one ship is inferior does not necessarily speak for the whole fleet. You are using a hasty generalization fallacy:rolleyes:. As stated above the explorer is the real threat pinnacle or not.

Then there is the issue that the Tau are getting stronger, they just put a new ship into service when is the last time the emperium did that? Even if you can beat the Hero can you beat the next one, and the one after that?

One the issue of warp travel true the Tau do not have true warp travel but what they have is far safer. As far as I know no Tau ship has ever been lost during one of their skips. Whereas the Navy has lost countless ships to geller field failures, warp drive malfunctions, navigator death/ possessions or just lost. The time dilation effect also cripples the navy, with the Tau you know when you come out, the navy gives you a guess. You may exit on time, days late, years late, centuries late or even before you left. That is a large price to pay for something that the Tau don't need (their empire is not that big)

The tau fleet is a threat look at the Taros campaign.

Clockwork-Knight
27-12-2009, 23:42
But the Gal'Leath is not meant to fight, and background-wise, it's not equal or superior to the battleships of the Imperium either.

Real Tau heavy warships are those of the Or'Es El'Leath (Custodian) -class or Lav'Shiv'Re (Protector) - class-ships.

Good ships, but not noted to be superior to Imperial warships in any case.

Nonetheless, the Tau Empire is noted to be too difficult to fight, perhaps even impossible to vanquish anymore unless met with a costly fleet and really huge crusade force that is nearly impossible to bring up on Segmentum Ultima (where you need every guy to fight Tyranids) that will bring no real gain according to the index xeno.

nagash66
28-12-2009, 00:13
As for the hero class being inferior, just because one ship is inferior does not necessarily speak for the whole fleet. You are using a hasty generalization fallacy:rolleyes:. As stated above the explorer is the real threat pinnacle or not.

Then there is the issue that the Tau are getting stronger, they just put a new ship into service when is the last time the emperium did that? Even if you can beat the Hero can you beat the next one, and the one after that?

One the issue of warp travel true the Tau do not have true warp travel but what they have is far safer. As far as I know no Tau ship has ever been lost during one of their skips. Whereas the Navy has lost countless ships to geller field failures, warp drive malfunctions, navigator death/ possessions or just lost. The time dilation effect also cripples the navy, with the Tau you know when you come out, the navy gives you a guess. You may exit on time, days late, years late, centuries late or even before you left. That is a large price to pay for something that the Tau don't need (their empire is not that big)

The tau fleet is a threat look at the Taros campaign.


No i am not, i am proving that the rules do not the backround make, and like it or not in the backround atm Imperial ships are plain better.

I never said they arent safer, which is a pluss of course, however i belive that the speed ( which while not sure ) is far superior to anything the Tau can match. As for what the future may bring , i like how you ignore anything i said on that.

Fact is as the backround currently stands the Tau may not be around long enought to produce anything, and even if they do survive the next couple of centurys who is too say they will produce anything. For someone saying things like " hasty generalization " you have little to no FACTS to back up youre point.

Time dilation may or may not happen, could be good could be bad, fact is people forget its as much a good thing as a bad. Fleet may go missing for 20 years fleet may pop up BEFORE the invasion and turn the tide who knows?

Again i have already said that the tau fleet is a threat, in great numbers 1 vs 1 going by backround Tau will come out worse then the IN any day.

The Imperium does produce new ships ever heard of say the Tyrant class cruiser, design dates 38th millennium only 8 or so millennium AFTER the Imperiums foundation, is that new enought??? In fact it was part of a whole SERIES of new designs, page 110 ships of the gothic sector. But again dont let FACTS and BACKROUND get in youre way:p.

TAU are the WIN :shifty: and anyone who says anything else is evil and must be treated like the DEVIL :shifty:

Edit: In fact and this truly suprises me as it shows you have NO idea of gothic fluff, MOST of the chaos list ships are OLDER Imperium designs which got replaced with NEWER ships. But hey you are right no new ships for the Navy no sir :p

a helpless goat
28-12-2009, 08:13
No i am not, i am proving that the rules do not the backround make, and like it or not in the backround atm Imperial ships are plain better.

I cannot read your first sentence.



I never said they arent safer, which is a pluss of course, however i belive that the speed ( which while not sure ) is far superior to anything the Tau can match.


Speed vs safety. I made the point that for the distances the Tau need to cross warp travel is insanely dangerous. The skips as far as I know are just as fast but cannot go as far. For examples of non-warp travel look to the Taros campaign (again) the obviously superior imperial fleet could not catch one ship for 2 weeks. And they only did so on the Tau's terms. There background.



As for what the future may bring , i like how you ignore anything i said on that. .... Fact is as the backround currently stands the Tau may not be around long enought to produce anything, and even if they do survive the next couple of centurys who is too say they will produce anything.


You didn't make a point on the future in your last post. But I will answer anyway, the future is uncertain, it really is. Look to your next point that "Fact" the Tau will not be around long enough to produce anything. Alas facts cannot be in the future and still be facts they are hypothesis, conjecture, strongly held ideas but not facts. The sun will rise tomorrow is not a fact no matter how true. The sun rose yesterday is a fact.

The Tau have gone from bronze to space age in 6000 years, an unprecedented rate of development. I think it is fair to say that the Tau will continue to learn more and develop baring extermination or other catastrophe. It is a safe assumption that the Tau are on the up.




For someone saying things like " hasty generalization " you have little to no FACTS to back up youre point.


A hasty generalization is when you use a single example to extrapolate to the entire data set. Claiming that the Hero < Luna and then claiming that therefore Tau < Navy is a hasty generalization. That is the definition. Me having or not having facts has no bearing on the issue. Provide more evidence or at least refute my counter argument (explorer is far superior).



Time dilation may or may not happen, could be good could be bad, fact is people forget its as much a good thing as a bad. Fleet may go missing for 20 years fleet may pop up BEFORE the invasion and turn the tide who knows?


It also screws up any logistical planning. As for the point of the backward savior fleet what happens in the conflict it was supposed to help at? It doesn't show up, perhaps losing a different battle. This is meaningless speculation, it could also dump you into a star or into the heat death. It is random and is not statistically a help but a major flaw. It also doesn't work when the nids are around. I don't know if the Tau skips do or not under the shadow of the warp but I assume not. They don't need geller fields or navigators so they should be subject to it.



Again i have already said that the tau fleet is a threat, in great numbers 1 vs 1 going by backround Tau will come out worse then the IN any day.


What background? Which battle do the Tau horribly lose?



The Imperium does produce new ships ever heard of say the Tyrant class cruiser, design dates 38th millennium only 8 or so millennium AFTER the Imperiums foundation, is that new enought??? In fact it was part of a whole SERIES of new designs, page 110 ships of the gothic sector. But again dont let FACTS and BACKROUND get in youre way:p.


It is now M41, so 3 millennium ago the navy got a new ship. That is half the age of the Tau. No that is not even close enough to soon. The Tau have put a new ship into production in under a century at the absolute outside. (that being the first imperial contact). Even accepting the insane timescale of a century the Tau are 30 times more recent that the navy. But don't let MATH get in your way. At this point I suggest we calm down and stop the childish accusations and stick to the evidence.

Use the above point on your point about tau development.



TAU are the WIN :shifty: and anyone who says anything else is evil and must be treated like the DEVIL :shifty:


What?



Edit: In fact and this truly suprises me as it shows you have NO idea of gothic fluff, MOST of the chaos list ships are OLDER Imperium designs which got replaced with NEWER ships. But hey you are right no new ships for the Navy no sir :p

Ok we have now proved that the tau are superior to chaos fleets. What is your point? I asked when the last time the navy got a new ship, rhetorically, I didn't say the navy never got new ships. If you call "new" 3 thousand years.

Remoah
28-12-2009, 08:47
Well the Tau are actively expanding, taking over planets and systems, despite the fact thier empire is tiny compared to the imperium, they're still taking WORLDS away...

The Dark Eldar are probably more of a threat though, Commoragh would be almost impossible to invade and destroy, as they can pretty much cut off any channel into the realm and remain safe. They're also capable of reaching anywhere in the Galaxy, unlike the Tau, who can barely even use the warp, and as such would find it hard to muster long-range invasions ect...

Clockwork-Knight
28-12-2009, 09:05
Are the Dark Eldar really that much of a threat if the only thing they do is steal a few peasants and hobos, unless they get really cocky and steal a few million soldiers?
The Tau might only send a Water Caste diplomat with his human goons to persuade the local governors to joing a more lucrative relationship than the Throne on Terra could offer now, seeing as entire armies have been withdrawn to fight in the neigbour segmentum, whereas the Tau's armys are right here, and can protect you from these evil ork raiders everybody's heard of. Oh, and you get these exotic fruits and totally new washing machine with a 3 year garanty, and no silly machine spirit you have to pray to.

Even the graph in the fifth edition rulebook shows that the Dark Eldar have only attacked a few 500 worlds and convoys approximately by the end of 998M.41.
Chaos Marauders, human rebels, ork freebootaz and others are plundering as many or even more, just by virtue of being more numerous to carry out such acts.

It has yet to be shown if the raid on Bakka's mooring have any wothwhile effects, or if the Imperium totally devastated the Dark Eldar fleet and just got inconvenienced for a few seconds.

Remoah
28-12-2009, 09:12
They dont steal a 'few' though, because basic human souls arent worth jack to them... they need souls, and lots of them (as far as i recall)... That and they can, and have, destoyed fleets and the like. Dark Eldar are decietful... im sure many 'Eldar' raids are actually by the Dark Eldar, but would prefer the Imperium to think that the Craftworld Eldar are to blame...

Im not sure, But i'd say that, as the OP asked, if ALL the other races were dealt with, and only the Tau and Dark Eldar were left, then the Imperium would have a harder time dealing with the DE than the Tau...

nagash66
28-12-2009, 11:39
I cannot read your first sentence.

Cannot or will not, you not the yoda speak?


You didn't make a point on the future in your last post. But I will answer anyway, the future is uncertain, it really is. Look to your next point that "Fact" the Tau will not be around long enough to produce anything. Alas facts cannot be in the future and still be facts they are hypothesis, conjecture, strongly held ideas but not facts. The sun will rise tomorrow is not a fact no matter how true. The sun rose yesterday is a fact.


Making a supposition on the future based on the most luckily outcome is not a fact, stating that something may happen in the future (Hence the may in my previous post which you ignored) is a fact, as something will happen and you’re supposition is amongst the many possible outcomes that the future may take.




A hasty generalization is when you use a single example to extrapolate to the entire data set. Claiming that the Hero < Luna and then claiming that therefore Tau < Navy is a hasty generalization. That is the definition. Me having or not having facts has no bearing on the issue. Provide more evidence or at least refute my counter argument (explorer is far superior).

Good thing I dint make a hasty generalization then isn’t it? What I did is show that the Tau even when purposefully making a combat craft which is outfitted with their more advance technology cannot overcome Imperial ships at the present. Now if you don’t think that based on this as well as pretty much all the flavor texts for Tau ships ( half of which were built to combat ether the Imperial or orc counterparts) we cant draw a logical conclusion and must generalize that you’ view . How ever a option based on facts and evidenced does not a hasty generalization make.



It also screws up any logistical planning. As for the point of the backward savior fleet what happens in the conflict it was supposed to help at? It doesn't show up, perhaps losing a different battle. This is meaningless speculation, it could also dump you into a star or into the heat death. It is random and is not statistically a help but a major flaw. It also doesn't work when the nids are around. I don't know if the Tau skips do or not under the shadow of the warp but I assume not. They don't need geller fields or navigators so they should be subject to it.

As i said good be good bad or super bad, for all it faults it gives Imperial ships a massive advantage, which is balanced by the Tau safer way of travel.




What background? Which battle do the Tau horribly lose?

Ty for asking this. So we know that the Tau stopped making the making the Explorer to make the Merchant, this is FACT, so we look at the Merchant and what we know on that. “The continued requirements of the fleet
ensured that the Merchant class remained predominantly a warship until the Hero class was laid down.” Page 102 Armada, which btw is a nice book maybe you should READ IT some time and stop me from having to slowly quote you it piece by piece.

Now I love this, we have truly come full circle here. The Merchant which was made to replace the Explorer was then replaced by another craft, the Hero. This is the ship you tried to say is better then the explorer. Despite 1) having being stated as being the most advance 2) being the outcome of 2 successor programs to replace the explorer in the first place. If you are going by the rules for the craft i have nothing to say but dont. It is called the backround forum for a reason, and the rules have never in any GW game potrayed the backround properly.

As for battles we simply don’t have any major TAU vs Imperial space battles in the background. The taros book sounds like something I should read and I will try to lay my hands on it, but pray tell me who wins in space.



It is now M41, so 3 millennium ago the navy got a new ship. That is half the age of the Tau. No that is not even close enough to soon. The Tau have put a new ship into production in under a century at the absolute outside. (that being the first imperial contact). Even accepting the insane timescale of a century the Tau are 30 times more recent that the navy. But don't let MATH get in your way. At this point I suggest we calm down and stop the childish accusations and stick to the evidence.

Use the above point on your point about tau development.

What?

Ok we have now proved that the tau are superior to chaos fleets. What is your point? I asked when the last time the navy got a new ship, rhetorically, I didn't say the navy never got new ships. If you call "new" 3 thousand years.

But for the Imperium that is new, it shows that new ships and designs are being made and thought up, the reason the Imperial ships dont get replaced all the time is because they dont need to be. The Imperium doesnt have the Explorer getting blow up by orcs or the Merchant and Hero failing to fight the lunar. IT ALREADY HAS a good stable and established series of ships which have proven themselves in combat for more time then the Tau Empire has existed. But it doesnt justs top, gothic is one of the few backround sources for Imperial tech that shows us that the Imperials are pushing forward in the technological field, and for the Imperiums meassure of this (technological advancement in the Imperium ??? ) it is happening faster then the speed of light. 90% of Imperial tech is pre heresy and you are calling 3 millenia old? No old is STC old is Dark age, 3k years for Imperial tech is brand spanking new.

Edit: Since all the ships we have for the Imperial side are ships of the time of the gothic war ( start of the 41 millenium ) who knos what the Imperium might have made since then, i am still hoping for a re make of BFG and a nice thick new book rules and ships, just a hope tho.

If you reply to this plz make more then a attack on my English level and plz try to state some sources and backround, or i simply wont bother replying.

Hrw-Amen
28-12-2009, 12:08
Isn't it abit like what we have now, which is worst a terrorist that attacks anywhere as a small group (Dark Elar.) causing mass panic and hard to combat or defend gainst. Although in the greater scheme of things nothing that will bring down the empire.

Or another superpower (Tau, admittedly not quite so 'super.' ) who you could field a proper army against and either win the battle or not as the case may be.

They appear to be totally different in style and/or approach to the threat posed, therefore I find it hard to say is one a bigger threat than the other. I guess on one hand the Tau could potentially rise to the stage where they could equal/stnadagainst the Imperium on the field of battle, but the Darl Eldar are never going to do that, (Unless there is a huge ackground change.) as there simply are not enough of them, hence the pirate raider style of their forces.

Clockwork-Knight
28-12-2009, 15:33
They dont steal a 'few' though, because basic human souls arent worth jack to them... they need souls, and lots of them (as far as i recall)... That and they can, and have, destoyed fleets and the like. Dark Eldar are decietful... im sure many 'Eldar' raids are actually by the Dark Eldar, but would prefer the Imperium to think that the Craftworld Eldar are to blame...Of course they steal a 'few', as is written in the Dark Eldar Codex. One of the most pitiful example described is where a primitive human settlement of a few thousands fear that the Dark Eldar return to steal the few still living, and they seriously try to make us believe that this is actually a threat, whereas in one of the next White Dwarves, we get to read the exploits of the Night Lords, who can make entire planets with populations in the billions kill themselves just out of fear before these marauders will land and do unspeakable things to them.


Im not sure, But i'd say that, as the OP asked, if ALL the other races were dealt with, and only the Tau and Dark Eldar were left, then the Imperium would have a harder time dealing with the DE than the Tau...No, the opening thread stated that the Imperium could crush any of these two if all other threats were eliminated (a feat that the Imperium won't live to see, because humanity will become a fully psychic race, lost to the Chaos Gods). It was just asked which of these two minor threats are more of a nuisance to the Imperium in the actual climate, where Necron Legions, Tyranid Swarms, Ork Hordes, Slaves to Madness, other xeno dangers, wicked witches and human rebells fracture the Imperium from the outside, as from the inside.


Isn't it abit like what we have now, which is worst a terrorist that attacks anywhere as a small group (Dark Elar.) causing mass panic and hard to combat or defend gainst. Although in the greater scheme of things nothing that will bring down the empire.No, the Dark Eldar raids so far are at best comparable to the somalian pirates prowling the shipping lanes with their small fast ships. It is yet to see if the new upcoming codex can change that.

Or another superpower (Tau, admittedly not quite so 'super.' ) who you could field a proper army against and either win the battle or not as the case may be. The specialists in charge for analyzing the Tau think that it's not possible, what with all these other threats, and that you need really massive armies to wage a war that is far away from the next secure world.

baphomael
28-12-2009, 17:08
I think people are tending to, perhaps unfairly, underestimate quite what the dark eldar are capable of. A force, especially one as fractious and divided as the Dark Eldar, being able to cripple the segmentum HQ on Bakka is one that cant really be ignored.

While the Dark Eldar dont go in for taking territory (although some archons probably run protection rackets on isolated worlds and systems), they do need to take a *lot* of slaves. Dark Eldar society appears to be a strange mish-mash of feudal tithing and gangster extortion. The top-dogs, like Vect, need an aweful lot of souls a day just keep alive and off Slaanesh's dinner-plate (let alone the captives they kill for fun). Then, there are the needs of their subordinate archons, the dracons, sybarites and bottom of the ladder Dark Eldar. After the top dogs have had their fill there need to be enough souls left for these guys too.

The Dark Eldar codex notes an Archon explaining this soul-hunger:
"You need to rule? What do you know needs? You are young. The Thirst has a shallow hold on you. I will tell you of need: a deep, unfaltering emptiness that grows larger and more demanding with every passing of the night. You have heard tales of how I consume a hundred souls a day. That is but the morsel to whet my appetite. A hundred times that number die every day to quench my desire, my need."

So, thats one Dark Eldar needing to consume 1000 souls a day. One day. Thats without counting those within his own Kabal, or those Kabals affiliated to him. To keep going just for one year that Archon is gonna need 365,000 souls, let alone the needs of his kabal.
And thats all assuming he doesnt have to provide a tribute to a more powerful Archon. If this generic Archon needs 1000 souls a day, imagine the needs of Asdrubael Vect (who is noted for being particularly extortionate).

I can well see entire worlds having their populations stripped just to keep a kabal going for a while. While life may be cheap to the Imperium, having to constantly recolonise worlds whose populations disappear is gonna be a bit of a drag for the Administratum. And thats without factoring when the Dark Eldar are pushed to strike meatier targets (like Bakka). If they can attack Bakka when they need to, where else can they strike?

Clockwork-Knight
28-12-2009, 17:21
Keep in mind that it wouldn't be below GW to downplay the attack on Bakka's mooring, even going so far as to outright turn it into a victory for the Imperials, and the damage done is only minor.
Also, the Dark Eldar raids are so far infrequent and few, despite the needs of their really hungry overlords, so I guess that they do breed a larger number of slaves to explain their relatively rare scavenging outside the webway.

Shinzui
28-12-2009, 22:49
The pinnacle of Tau technology, the
Hero class was the product of Tau
experience during the Damocles Gulf
Crusade. The Tau were determined that
they should have a ship that could match
the Imperial Lunar class. As it became
evident, they failed but they did succeed in
producing a credible ship of the line.

That's not saying the the Hero is inferior only simply the Tau wanted a Ship the same as a Luna, as the Hero isn't the same that doesn't make its inferior as said at the end.

That also makes sense as far as the Damocles Crusade goes in which 11 Merchant class took on a fleet of 13 Capital ships and came close to winning (in fact according to the fluff in the 3rd ed Tau codex it was a Pyrrhic victory.

That being said the Tau are the greater thread, as shown in the planet strike book vs the Chaos outbreak. The Imperium has no problem wiping out the population (infected as they were) and just replacing them with a entire new population. The Dark Eldar are no more trouble than any of the various hazzards which might affect the population. Tau on the otherhand are with the more permanent warband of galaxy conquers. Can't repopulate a world defended by soldiers.

IJW
28-12-2009, 23:14
"You have heard tales of how I consume a hundred souls a day. That is but the morsel to whet my appetite. A hundred times that number die every day to quench my desire, my need."

So, thats one Dark Eldar needing to consume 1000 souls a day. One day. Thats without counting those within his own Kabal, or those Kabals affiliated to him. To keep going just for one year that Archon is gonna need 365,000 souls, let alone the needs of his kabal.
1. 100 x 100 is 10,000 per day not 1,000 - or 3,650,000 per year.
2. Ever heard of exaggeration? ;)

Nearly four million souls a year to keep a single Archon going simply isn't feasible - that's equivalent to one every 8.64 seconds.

Or, to take Clockwork-Knight's example, an entire human settlement that will last less than a day.

Looking at slave populations and the higher end of human birth rate, (50 births per 1,000 people per year) and you'd need a population of almost a billion slaves per Archon.

a helpless goat
29-12-2009, 05:50
Cannot or will not, you not the yoda speak?


I cannot read it. So please reword it.



Good thing I dint make a hasty generalization then isn’t it?... How ever a option based on facts and evidenced does not a hasty generalization make.


To explain once again when your opinion based on "facts (should be singular) and evidence" has only one fact then it cannot be applied throughout. You cannot assume that the Tau's inability to match the Luna means they cannot match any Imperial ship. Look to the three documented battles below and you will see a different story. Your case is based on one sentence in one book.



As i said good be good bad or super bad, for all it faults it gives Imperial ships a massive advantage, which is balanced by the Tau safer way of travel.


But it is not good at a statistical rate. One time when playing Russian Roulette you may miss and hit an ax murderer behind you, but that does not make playing it "good, good bad or super bad." Time dilation is a problem in all (statistically) cases, just like Russian roulette is a problem in all (statistically) cases. Tau travel is 1/3 the speed but bypases all of the above mentioned problems and is not subject to shadow of the warp (I think). There is also no risk of the ship disappearing, becoming a hulk, becoming possessed, ect.



Ty for asking this. So we know that the Tau stopped making the making the Explorer to make the Merchant, this is FACT, so we look at the Merchant and what we know on that. “The continued requirements of the fleet
ensured that the Merchant class remained predominantly a warship until the Hero class was laid down.” Page 102 Armada, which btw is a nice book maybe you should READ IT some time and stop me from having to slowly quote you it piece by piece.


First the Tau haven't stopped production of the explorer. Second as per the rules you must take an explorer and can take a Hero for every explorer you have. Showing once again the Hero and Luna are not mutually exclusive, and you must explain the explorer if you want to keep your comparison.



It is called the backround forum for a reason, and the rules have never in any GW game potrayed the backround properly.


I will not debate this issue but the rules have to be used at some points or there is no backing to the discussion. I have seen this very issue in too many threads. It all seems to boil down to who has the rules on their side and who has the background on their side.:o. I propose looking at both.



As for battles we simply don’t have any major TAU vs Imperial space battles in the background. The taros book sounds like something I should read and I will try to lay my hands on it, but pray tell me who wins in space.


So to Summarize, you claim we have to look to only background sources and claim that the Tau lose 99% of battles but then cannot point to any. When I point to one battle, you haven't read about it (which is fine), then you criticize me for not reading the BFG rulebook (which I have) and not pointing to any background. Hmmmm. Interesting.

Now look to Shinzui's post and we have two battles both the imperium barely winning despite outnumbering the Tau. For the final point look at the side bar of the hero class and you will see an example of a one on one fight where the Tau win.



No old is STC old is Dark age, 3k years for Imperial tech is brand spanking new.


The original issue was is the Tau producing new ships and are they developing. If the Tau put new ships into service 80-160 times faster than the imperium does then it is clear that they are indeed advancing. They are a threat (the original question) because at this rate even if they fail this time it won't be long before they succeed. The imperium cannot even advance and produce new far superior ships because they are constantly losing technology and resources.



If you reply to this plz make more then a attack on my English level and plz try to state some sources and backround, or i simply wont bother replying.

I have made one "attack" on your English, which was a request for clarification.

My previous post had background evidence, you just ignored it. (the Taros campaign)

Now this is rapidly going nowhere, we are not answering the question of who is the bigger threat the DE or Tau. The issue is not if the Imperium is better or the Tau are better. Lets get back on track.

will564752
29-12-2009, 14:50
It is obvious you have no idea what you are on about...

& its obvious your mother never taught you any manners.

nagash66
29-12-2009, 19:22
That also makes sense as far as the Damocles Crusade goes in which 11 Merchant class took on a fleet of 13 Capital ships and came close to winning (in fact according to the fluff in the 3rd ed Tau codex it was a Pyrrhic victory..

The reason this says little it is the diversity of Imperial capital ships, evrything for the Dauntless to the Emperors is a capital ship. So saying 13 capital ships is telling us next to nothing, could be a patrols of light cruisers could be a proper battlegroup. That and the fact that this gives no information to the battle, was it a ambush? a trap? a pitched battle? The possibilitys are endless.




Now this is rapidly going nowhere, we are not answering the question of who is the bigger threat the DE or Tau. The issue is not if the Imperium is better or the Tau are better. Lets get back on track.

Agreed i do however find this a interesting talk and might get a thread on this going in the BFG section over the next couple of days when i have time to collect both sides and make a proper first post for a thread, i will however pm you when i do so, as i find these kind of arguments most fun.


& its obvious your mother never taught you any manners.

I find this hilarious, so you pop in here insult me and then leave giving no explanation as to why you perceive I have no manners? How very much like a gentleman/lady of you, it is obvious that youre own upbringing went impeccably :rolleyes:

will564752
29-12-2009, 19:29
I find this hilarious, so you pop in here insult me and then leave giving no explanation as to why you perceive I have no manners? How very much like a gentleman/lady of you, it is obvious that youre own upbringing went impeccably :rolleyes:

"It is obvious you have no idea what you are on about"

"the fanboy nonsense you wrote above"

"In fact and this truly suprises me as it shows you have NO idea of gothic fluff"

Are just some of the examples of quite simply, rude behaviour. If you think someone is misguided or has interpreted the background in an incorrect way just quote sources, explain your side of the discussion and make them see the error of their ways. Don't say things like what I quoted above, its just rude, can offend some people and just turns a decent discussion into more of an argument. Also if I may, try to cut back on the sarcasm at times - its all fine & dandy to use it in passing, or as a joke, but don't use it against people - thats what starts arguments.

I'll point you to some points from the 'Posting Guidelines':

4) Please keep your posting polite and civil. WarSeer is a community, and there is a person on the other end of the discussion that may, and probably will, interpret something the wrong way should you be rude.
8) Please respect other people's choices and opinions...
12) Remember, stay friendly...

Anyway back on Topic!

Personally I think its hard to say which faction (Dark Eldar or Tau) pose the most threat level. The Tau Empire on a galatic scale, as has been said is tiny and some would argue insignificant. However that having been said the Tau Empire is extremley dense and most of the planets within its area of influence are inhabitable. They possess a powerful (and not to be underestimated) military and are extremley enthusiastic about expanding their empire. Many Humans have been drawn to abandon the Imperium and join the Tau because of their ideals.

Becuase of the many other threats which the Imperium faces it is unable to launch a major offensive which would realistically be able to crush the Tau. As such vast and more important conflicts rage around the galaxy (13th Black Crusade, Third war for Armageddon, The Hive Fleets etc) the Tau have the opportunity to become a serious nuisance to the Imperium in the eastern fringes.

The Dark Eldar on the other hand are almost completley safe in the Webway from Imperial incursions. Although the Tau are safe at the moment, the Imperium is capable in theory of crushing the Tau Empire and wiping them from the history books. This they cannot do with the Dark Eldar. The intentions of the Dark Eldar are however not as threatening in the grand scale of things as the Tau's - The Dark Eldar wish to maintain themselves from 'The Thirst' by 'absorbing' the Soul essences from others, 'others' largely referring to Mankind. But are not interested in claiming territory. The Tau on the other hand wish to claim the territory (due to their ideals), and the Imperium will eventually be forced to take the fight to the Tau on a major scale - if they can afford to. The point being that the Imperium can afford to lose the amount of Men it loses to Dark Eldar raids every year (they have done so since the Imperium was founded, and has had little or no effect overall), yet the Tau are an organised, technologically developed, enthusiastic, and powerful force whose armies can go toe-to-toe with the Imperium's. Not only that but many Imperials are actually allying with the Tau Empire because they offer better protection (as the Imperial armies are elsewhere), and quite frankly a better life for your average Imperial citizen via the Greater Good. As the Tau empire expands, I imagine they are not hated oppressors to most humans but rather liberators from a harsh and vile life, This is why they pose such a threat, because most Imperial citizens would probably willingly go over to the cause of the Greater Good, infact many that do still worship the God-Emperor - which is allowed by their Tau overlords, which fits in perfectly with your bog-standard Imperial :)

Personally I would go with the Tau Empire as being the most threatening. The Dark Eldar have preyed on mankind as long as they've been Dark Eldar, but have had no lasting effect on the Imperium. The Tau however are relative new comers and have already seized a fair amount of Imperial territory for their age as a civilisation. Many humans are drawn away from the harsh reality of Imperial life by the promises of the Greater good. Technologically the Tau are beginning to rival the Imperium (some may argue even surpass), so the strength of their military grows. If left unchecked (which they will be due to the Imperium's other commitments) the Tau will grow geographically, technologically and be bolstered by the growing number of Xeno species and humans which they draw in with their ideology.

I would say the Tau 'currently' pose more of a threat and have the potential to become so much more of a threat in the future if they are left unchecked. Where as the Dark Eldar have posed a small but contained and insignificant (on a galatic scale) threat most of time, yes the Imperium loses a few citizens here and there and whatever resources can be plundered from backwater planets from time to time, but that is insignificant to the Imperium as a whole. The Tau Empire will eventually pose such a threat (not just militarily) in the galatic east that the Imperium may find itself losing huge swathes of territory soon.

nagash66
29-12-2009, 21:53
"It is obvious you have no idea what you are on about"

"the fanboy nonsense you wrote above"

"In fact and this truly suprises me as it shows you have NO idea of gothic fluff"

Are just some of the examples of quite simply, rude behaviour. If you think someone is misguided or has interpreted the background in an incorrect way just quote sources, explain your side of the discussion and make them see the error of their ways. Don't say things like what I quoted above, its just rude, can offend some people and just turns a decent discussion into more of an argument. Also if I may, try to cut back on the sarcasm at times - its all fine & dandy to use it in passing, or as a joke, but don't use it against people - thats what starts arguments.

I'll point you to some points from the 'Posting Guidelines':

4) Please keep your posting polite and civil. WarSeer is a community, and there is a person on the other end of the discussion that may, and probably will, interpret something the wrong way should you be rude.
8) Please respect other people's choices and opinions...
12) Remember, stay friendly...

Anyway back on Topic!

EDIT :I do not wish to derail the thread any longer then i have to, so i will send you a PM.

FarseerMatt
29-12-2009, 22:21
If left unchecked (which they will be due to the Imperium's other commitments) the Tau will grow geographically, technologically and be bolstered by the growing number of Xeno species and humans which they draw in with their ideology.

Agreed, but the interesting thing is that the Tau cannot focus all their effort on expansion (just as the Imperium cannot focus all its effort on dealing with the Tau) due to Ork and Tyranid incursions into their current territories. How this turns out has yet to be written (to the gaming table! :D).



The reason this says little it is the diversity of Imperial capital ships, evrything for the Dauntless to the Emperors is a capital ship. So saying 13 capital ships is telling us next to nothing, could be a patrols of light cruisers could be a proper battlegroup. That and the fact that this gives no information to the battle, was it a ambush? a trap? a pitched battle? The possibilitys are endless.

I happen to have the old Tau codex sitting with me here so I'll relate as many facts as I can:

IMPERIAL FORCES - The (First) Damocles Gulf crusade was only expected to have to purge a system or two at most, and so consisted of only 12 capital ships (and by extrapolation, probably two or three times as many frigates). Note that they continue to repeatedly underestimate the Tau throughout the campaign, which leads to all sorts of problems. The fleet was commanded by Admiral Jellaque from the Retribution class battleship Blade of Woe. Other named ships are the Dauntless class Regent Lakshimbai and the undesignated Honour of Damlass.

BATTLE OF HYDASS - The crusade fleet encounters 7 Tau ships of "cruiser displacement" (Explorers, or possibly Merchants - Heroes have not been invented yet)
+ Tau torpedoes force the Imperials to break formation (Explorers then, since Merchants don't have spineguns)
+ Imperial bomber waves are countered by Mantas
+ A SM strike cruiser plus some Sword class frigates break the Tau line and inflict damage, exploiting the Tau's lack of broadside firepower
+ The Tau fleet withdraws shortly after - one Explorer is caught and destroyed in the retreat
+ No Imperial losses mentioned

BATTLE OF SYL'KELL - The crusaders attack an agri-world (pop: approx 7 million Tau) defended by the 6 remaining Tau cruisers, a system fleet and an orbital station
+ The Tau fleet, in the process of evacuating the planet, disengages almost immediately without loss
+ The Imperial fleet boards and cleanses the lightly-armed orbital with no losses
+ The Imperials underestimate the Tau ground forces, but ultimately succeed in destroying them and purging the planet

BATTLE OF VISS'EL - The crusaders turn their attention to the last Tau colony on the Imperial side of the Damocles Gulf
+ The Imperials destroy the colony by orbital bombardment

BATTLE OF PRA'YEN - The crusade fleet enters the Dal'yth system. The first line of defence is a heavy orbital and a fleet stationed at the system's outermost planet
+ The orbital cripples the Honour of Damlass with its first salvo. The Imperials break formation to attack
+ 11 Tau ships appear from behind the planet (presumably cruisers, but could be carrying 2-3 times their number in Orca escorts on gravitic hooks)
+ Imperials split - capital ships engage the fleet while the escorts attack the station
+ The Tau fleet concentrates fire on the Regent Lakshimbai - a lucky hit detonates the plasma drive and destroys the ship
+ As soon as the Imperials are closely engaged, a Kroot warsphere powers up and goes for the undefended transports. The day is saved by the Blade of Woe, which intercepts the warsphere and rips it apart.
+ Up close the Imperial cruisers inflict heavy losses, destroying all of the Tau fleet for the loss of 3 more capital ships
+ The escorts lose 14 of their number, but destroy the station
+ The remaining Imperials move on to Dal'yth Prime, destroy its 3 lightly-armed orbitals, and invade the planet. The ground war ultimately results in stalemate and an Imperial withdrawal

AFTERMATH - The BFG Tau document has this to say:

Fundamentally the Tau military system remained the same until the Damocles Gulf Crusade brought them into conflict with the Imperium. It is likely that if they had been confronted by a significant Ork Waaagh! at any time during this period they would have been defeated but the destruction of Waaagh! Scraghurtz by Alaitoc Craftworld in M40 ensured their survival. The limited (by human standards) conflict with the Imperium set new standards for the Kor’vattra though. The expansion of the Empire now meant that the Tau could call upon species such as the Kroot with their own starships and Imperial Rogue Traders were a valuable source of new technology. Within twenty years of the armistice the Tau launched their first Lar’shi (trans. Hero) class cruiser, inspired by the Imperial Lunar class. A Tau fleet including a high ratio of the new ships subsequently defeated an Ork fleet of almost comparable size assaulting the D’yanoi system.

The Tau are now an established power on the Eastern fringe but it remains to be seen whether the Kor’vattra can rise to the challenge of the Tyranid Hive Fleets and the other perils of a very dangerous universe.

nagash66
30-12-2009, 00:43
TY for that FarseerMatt, from what you have said we have for BATTLE OF PRA'YEN a imperial fleet facing "The first line of defence is a heavy orbital and a fleet stationed at the system's outermost planet: and then the tau try to flank the Imperial with a second fleet of 11 cruisers and a hiden ( i say hidden since it had to power up, no reason not to have power up during a battle unless you want to stay of sensors) kroot war sphere.

The imperial lose 4 capital ships and 14 escorts while the Tau lose the 11 flanking cruisers 1 war sphere and who knows how many ships from the defending fleet plus the space station. Sounds like a solid Imperial win if ever i heard one.

Is this the 3 or 4 ed dex ? Cause it doesnt sound like the Pyrrhic victory Shinzui talked about.

Shinzui
30-12-2009, 01:27
3rd edition. 4th Is just a cut and paste job with a little bit new (4 pages IIRC).


The Crusading fleet had won a truly pyrrhic victory. Although the warsphere, Tau fleet and Orbital station were destroyed, it was at a cost of four capital ships and fourteen escorts. The Tau ambush had come very close to succeeding and brought a new respect for the Tau to the imperial fleet

Also this


the crusade fleet was badly damaged and could barely protect its transports, let alone provide cover for the army.

FarseerMatt
30-12-2009, 01:39
TY for that FarseerMatt, from what you have said we have for BATTLE OF PRA'YEN a imperial fleet facing "The first line of defence is a heavy orbital and a fleet stationed at the system's outermost planet: and then the tau try to flank the Imperial with a second fleet of 11 cruisers and a hiden ( i say hidden since it had to power up, no reason not to have power up during a battle unless you want to stay of sensors) kroot war sphere.

Sorry, that was my poor wording - the fleet and the 11 ships that appeared from behind Pra'yen were one and the same (ie there was no "second" flanking fleet, though the warsphere fulfils the role).

The battle was something of a pyrrhic victory in that the crusade's fleet strength was reduced (by approx 33%) and upon realising that the Tau empire was far more than 1 or 2 systems (as I said, the Imperials drastically underestimated the Tau and sent too small a force) they must have known they couldn't conquer it all with what they had left even if they had won on Dal'yth. The 2nd crusade of 998.M41 (return to damocles campaign weekend) did things differently.

Tanith Ghost
01-01-2010, 07:25
It's good to see it in print finally what I've always thought about the tau's chances against a real threat.

Shinzui
02-01-2010, 03:50
The 2nd crusade of 998.M41 (return to damocles campaign weekend) did things differently.

Return to damocles campaign was said many times during the time it was run to be unofficial and had no effect on the background. This is easily seen in the Tau Empire codex which has no mention of it despite being made several years after (when the GW forums still existed even).

Tastyfish
02-01-2010, 21:03
Return to damocles campaign was said many times during the time it was run to be unofficial and had no effect on the background. This is easily seen in the Tau Empire codex which has no mention of it despite being made several years after (when the GW forums still existed even).

It has messed up the IG and Tau timelines - the latest writers seem to have the Damocles Gulf crusade happening in the last year or two, rather than a couple of hundred years ago. That there are two crusades into the same region in quick sucession (far as the AdAmin goes) is the easiest explanation for this.

There isn't really a space battle over Taros, or the battle in Tactica Aeronautica. First one is one of the new Custodian class battleships picking off lone convoys before being chased down by a small fleet, and the latter is a pair of stealthed ships (Custodian again I think) refitted for a very long jump or series of jumps hoping to sneak deep into Imperial space undetected.

Shinzui
02-01-2010, 22:01
It has messed up the IG and Tau timelines - the latest writers seem to have the Damocles Gulf crusade happening in the last year or two, rather than a couple of hundred years ago. That there are two crusades into the same region in quick sucession (far as the AdAmin goes) is the easiest explanation for this.

That's a rewrite. Not to seperate events. Comfirmed by the question asked at the Gamesday just after the Imperial Guard Codex comes out weather the mention of the Damocles gulf crusade in the ratling unit entry which is listed the date as the old one. They said that was a type and if should've been during the new date.

The new Damocle crusade (if they do go ahead with the retcon) was for nine years from 979 till 988 and was aborted due to Hive fleet Kraken (original was because of behemoth). This is different to return to Damocles fluff so I doubt that's an indication of its existance especially when the original isn't mentioned.

imo the rewrite if done properly could be more interesting than the currently Tau background is. Until I see more I go by the current stuff as other than a couple dates with some text it could just be some over zealous codex writer.

FarseerMatt
02-01-2010, 23:18
Return to damocles campaign was said many times during the time it was run to be unofficial and had no effect on the background.

My mistake - I didn't know because I didn't attend. I guess Dal'yth Prime isn't officially in Imperial hands anymore then :p