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TMATK
24-12-2009, 08:57
Basic question:

OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
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OOOOC
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO

2 units face off, no command, bottom unit charges with a character on the end. No one in the bottom unit does any casualties except for the character who kills 5. Does the top unit get no attacks back?

Thanks.

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
24-12-2009, 09:35
I would say that no, they do not get any attacks back. Here is my reasoning:

"As with combat between ordinary warriors, casualties inflicted by a character can extend beyond the models the character is touching...Don't be fooled by the fact that models are static and the battle lines are rigid and straight...Heroes are just the type to strike boldly left and right..."

It works the same for troops with multiple attacks.

Example: If those 5X5 units were a unit of High Elf Swordmasters and a unit of Skaven Stormvermin, both with no command, and (somehow) the HElfs do only 5 casualties with their 10 attacks, none of the the Vermin attack back.

Mid'ean
24-12-2009, 11:59
Last Order is correct. 5 kills would remove the entire first row of the enemy. So there would be nobody left to strike back......:cool:

Aethlion dyra Ferralgaard
02-01-2010, 05:22
A problem with the "Unit Champion" section reared its head in my game just yesterday.

I was playing a friend (who is HE) with my Bretonnians, and after he had inflicted 4 or so wounds on my unit of KotR, I stated I was going to attack back with my unit champion, who I assumed from previous games against another friend of mine, was still alive and could attack back.

This completely dumbfounded my opponent, confused myself I scanned the book for the ruling on this,.. and as usual,.. found ambiguity. This was the first game against this particular opponent, and having played dozens of games against my gaming group who interpreted that the champion would still be alive, I was a little annoyed when I couldn't clearly state my case.

Where do I find the literature that states that the champion will be able to attack unless he is removed by targeted attacks? There's a whole lot of;

The champion can be targetted,..

and

The champion is removed if the entire regiment is destroyed,..

But nothing that says in black and white,.. the champion lives unless he IS targeted (and removed as a casualty obviously)

Thanks!

Dark_Knight
02-01-2010, 05:30
The champion can attack back unless targeted. Now if the casualties equals or is greater than the unit with the champion the champion dies. He is not a character. The key difference is that characters have different weapon skill, toughness, and special rules attached to them. So this complicates the wounding part of the rolling if the opposing player does not state that they are targeting the character, and this can only be done by troops in base contact with the character... unless a spearmen unit is involved... and then there are HE spearmen. I have a headache now.

Nurgling Chieftain
02-01-2010, 05:35
First off, note that the situation is a lot harder to come by than you make it sound. The champion is only eligible for "normal" removal if he's in the back of the unit! Normally, he is not...

Second, it's true that the GaP of treating champions as characters in terms of casualty removal with the exception of the unit being wiped out is not stated in black&white, however, the rules that the champion is removed when targeted specifically or the whole unit is wiped out is clearly meant to be taken as complete rather than partial.

Razakel
02-01-2010, 09:11
In close combat the unit champion CAN be specifically targetted. However if he is not he may always attack back, even if every other "rank-and-file" model has been removed in the front rank of his unit.

Aside from that, Last Of the Order answered the original question perfectly and I'm certain he is correct.

Aethlion dyra Ferralgaard
04-01-2010, 12:45
I would assume then this also applies to the Grail Reliquae,.. the confusion continued into the combat involving this unit,..

I interpret it as units with a differing statline must be targetted seperately,.. much like taking a mount out from under a Lord or Hero,..

Would I be correct to assume this,.. different stat line,.. wounds don't "bleed" into said model,..

TMATK
04-01-2010, 14:37
Followup question, this came up in a game a few days ago:


OOOOO ZZZZZ
OOOOO ZZZZZ
OOOOO ZZZZZ
OOOOO ZZZZZ
OOOOO ZZZZZ

QQQQQ
QQQQQ

Unit O has been charged, unit Q does 3 wounds and unit Z does 2 wounds. Unit O has lost 5 attacks, does it matter from where? Can unit O make 5 attacks all on unit Z, or do we keep track as to which specific flank the attacks were lost from?

Thanks

Grimgormx
04-01-2010, 15:54
option 2 you keep track as to wich specific flank the attacks were lost from.