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enyoss
24-12-2009, 17:03
UPDATE: List updated, after a looooong time, and changed for 8th edition, so skip to later posts if interested :)

Hi,

So, this if my first attempt at a 2250 Daemons list. I know the hype surrounding this army, and to be honest I couldn't believe some of the available options when reading the book.

Anyway, I've had a Keeper of Secrets knocking around for 15 years and I've always wanted a Daemon army lead by the guy, so I thought this might be my chance!

My main priority is that this is a balanced list drawing from only Slaanesh and Tzeentch. So, within this remit I'd like people to address whether the list is:

(a) Overpowered or not (an idea of what my group considers fair can be found in post 18 in this thread http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235771 )?
(b) Fun to play with and against. I really don't want to get bored quickly with this list.
(c) What changes could keep the list fair while making it more fun to play (sorry, no Khorne or Nurgle please :))?

Ok, with all that out of the way, here we go:


Lords

Keeper of Secrets: Spirit Swallower, Level 2

Heroes

Herald of Slaanesh: Daemonic Robes, Soporific Musk, Level 1
Herald of Tzeentch: Daemonic Robes, Master of Sorcery, Level 2

Core

17 Daemonettes inc Full Command: Banner of Ecstasy (herald in here)
20 Horrors (herald in here)
15 Daemonettes inc Alluress

Special

6 Seekers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers

Rare

3 Fiends
3 Flamers

Army Total: 2225
Power Dice: 9 to start (reduces as the Horrors unit takes wounds)
Dispel Dice: 6 to start

Ok, so my plan is: take an army lead by a Keeper of Secrets. That is, I have no plan :D.

With this in mind, any comment or critism is more than welcome.

Cheers,

enyoss

EDIT: Bah! I've gone and done my absolute pet hate and left the army identifier as BoC. Grrrr!

The SkaerKrow
24-12-2009, 18:50
Doesn't look particularly over the top to me. Tough because Daemons are tough, but you've managed to avoid both Min-Maxing and redundant unit spamming, so your composition can't really be faulted.

kyussinchains
24-12-2009, 19:40
looks good to me, how much of this army do you actually have models-wise? I think Robbo would let you use/sell you his horrors, and he's got 20 of the 6th edition daemonettes.....

What are you planning to use for a tzeentch herald? I'm curious as to your ideas.... your alter noble was pretty inspired so I'm eager to see if you have anything in mind for this one.....

edit: that KoS is going to be a beast to kill.....

enyoss
25-12-2009, 01:28
Doesn't look particularly over the top to me. Tough because Daemons are tough, but you've managed to avoid both Min-Maxing and redundant unit spamming, so your composition can't really be faulted.

Cheers for the comment. I never min/max on core (it just feels dirty :)) so that's pretty typical for me, but it's a bit of a shame that it's still tough. A shame because, basically, I held back as much as I dared when making the list! I guess it's pretty telling that when I bought the book a couple of days ago, the store manager gave a warning about how over the top the list was and how it was very likely to be re-done as soon as possible (he talked me out of buying stuff, with no hidden agenda!.. although unbeknowst to him I'm going to get it anyway. Sound guy!).


looks good to me, how much of this army do you actually have models-wise? I think Robbo would let you use/sell you his horrors, and he's got 20 of the 6th edition daemonettes.....

What are you planning to use for a tzeentch herald? I'm curious as to your ideas.... your alter noble was pretty inspired so I'm eager to see if you have anything in mind for this one.....


Well, I've got the KoS and 12 Daemonettes (http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20254rcdaemonettes.htm), and the Slaanesh Herald will be Kal'Krotg (bottom right http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20275rcchaossorcerors-m.htm) who's been waiting patiently since 1995 :). In the meantime the Tzeentch Herald will be my one and only well painted chaos sorceror model, and apart from that I'm counting on the Geeks with their impulse buying of those vulgar 2008 daemons to come true :D.

@ Kyussinchains: I wasn't thinking about playing you guys next week necessarily, I'm thinking of the long-term away from home scene... sorry, but I have to :(.

kyussinchains
25-12-2009, 17:09
@ Kyussinchains: I wasn't thinking about playing you guys next week necessarily, I'm thinking of the long-term away from home scene... sorry, but I have to :(.

No problem, I figured that would be the case, with 9 power dice every turn I think accusations of 'seer council' would be bandied around a fair bit.... I am quite scared of this army, lots of nasty magic and extreme speed, 3 units which have movement 10, any amount of flamers is always bad ;) and lots of magic..... I'm glad I wont be facing it any time soon, or I'd be tempted to sink the thirty five smackers into that second hydra..... :)

enyoss
04-01-2010, 21:07
Ok, so I had my first game with a list similar to that posted above, so I thought it was time to give my verdict so far on Daemons [NOTE: of the two lists below, the one in yellow is the one I'd like you to look at, the other is the list I tried out].

The list I ended up using was:

Lords

Keeper of Secrets: Spirit Swallower, Level 3

Heroes

Herald of Slaanesh: Daemonic Robes, Soporific Musk, Level 1
Herald of Slaanesh: Many Armed Monstrosity, Level 1

Core

12 Daemonettes inc Full Command: Banner of Ecstasy (herald in here)
20 Horrors (herald in here)
12 Daemonettes inc Alluress
5 Furies
6 Furies

Special

6 Seekers
3 Screamers
3 Screamers

Rare

2 Fiends
3 Flamers

Power Dice: 6 to start (reduces as the Horrors unit takes wounds)
Dispel Dice: 8 to start


I had to trim back some units from the original list due to availability.

My observations?

(a) Core units have to be big and with command. Daemonettes seem to play in a similar way to my High Elves, and one rank for static combat res just wasn't enough.
(b) The KoS is solid, perhaps too solid with Spirit Swallower, but quickly gets whoomped when losing combat.
(c) I hate furies. The models are terrible, so good job they weren't on the original list.
(d) Having mono-god for heroes is a little dull, so I need to mix it up again.
(e) To make the most of Slaaneshi magic, and the character of these guys, I'd like to include some kind of leadership bombing... in moderation.
(f) This list was far from unbeatable. In fact, I lost with it (against Tomb Kings). Quite badly.

So all of this has gone into the rat blender, and I have a new improved list for people to critique :). One of the main ideas was to get rid of the KoS, and use the extra slack in competativeness to upgrade elsewhere.


Lords

Daemon Prince: Many Armed Monstrosity, Allure of Slaanesh, Mark of Slaanesh, Level 2.

Heroes

Herald of Tzeentch: Daemonic Robes, Master of Sorcery, Level 2
Herald of Slaanesh: BSB, Great Icon of Despair, Daemonic Robes, Allure of Slaanesh.

Core

17 Daemonettes inc Full Command (herald in here)
19 Horrors (herald in here)
15 Daemonettes inc Full Command: Banner of Ecstasy

Special

6 Seekers
6 Seekers
3 Screamers

Rare

3 Fiends
3 Flamers

Power Dice: 6 to start (reduces as the Horrors unit takes wounds)
Dispel Dice: 5 to start


So, a slight change in that I'm now using a Daemon Prince, but have more of the leadership reducing effects and leadership dependent gifts to make up for it.

Any comments?

Cheers,

enyoss

P.S. I'm aware that the inclusion of the leadership based gifts wouldn't have helped at all against Tomb Kings, but humour me anyway :).

Brother Edwin
04-01-2010, 21:11
Looks very pleasent to play against. Well done.

enyoss
06-01-2010, 18:41
Any other comments about the Slaaneshi Daemon Prince before this sinks without a trace :D? I've not much experience with how the gifts turn out in a practical sense, so any more pointers would be welcome (I tend to find it hard to judge the in-game effectiveness of leadership based gifts).

kyussinchains
06-01-2010, 19:46
I'd say you're spot on with your analysis of the game against the TK (one of the few armies who aren't very weak against daemons IMO)

Although looking at it as a prospective opponent the daemon prince doesn't scare me half as much as the KoS..... you could save points by leaving the keeper at level 1 and trimming the fat elsewhere.... perhaps take units of 5 seekers and drop a screamer or two?

otherwise I'd say the new army looks a much more balanced setup.... shame I won't get to take it on any time soon... :(

enyoss
21-02-2012, 15:00
UPDATE: Ok, I thought I'd simply resurrect and add to my existing thread rather than start a completely new one.

So, since I last posted here, we have seen the advent of 8th edition, and all the changes it brought with it. Daemons seem to have been brought into line with everybody else, so I think I can afford to be a little less restrictive. Also, I had a serious lull in my Warhammering, and the lists above never materialised :shifty:. Now though, I'm able to focus on things a bit more, so have already started buying up some of the models I need :).

Anyway, here is my new list. A couple of notes first though:

1) I've upped the points to 2500.
2) As before, I want to focus on a Slannesh theme, perhaps with Tzeentch support. However, sticking to mono-Slannesh religiously isn't for me: I get way too bored with the restrictive unit choices. So, I have a proposition for some 'counts as' replacements. As time goes on, I'm hoping to come up with inventive 'Slannesh' replacements for other units in the list.
3) Daemon Princes are even worse in 8th, so I'm scrapping that idea. Keeper of Secrets is back.
4) Ideally, I'm looking for a mid-range list. I'd like to avoid anything which is frustrating to play against, even if not overpowered. I suspect Siren Song might fall into this category, so have left it out for the time being.


Lords

Keeper of Secrets: Soporific Musk, Soul Hunger, Torment Blade, Level 4.
Notes: I'm not claiming +1A for Torment Blade. Level 4 is to improve my chances of getting Phantasmagoria, as well as giving me a good dispel capability

Heroes

Herald of Slannesh: Daemonic Robes, Allure of Slannesh, Great Icon of Despair (BSB).
Herald of Tzeentch: Master of Sorcery (DEATH), Spell Breaker.
Notes: Lore of Death on the Tzeentch Herald is to help support my Leadership effects by casting Doom and Darkness and/or sniping enemy BSBs.

Core

20 Daemonettes inc Full Command: Siren Standard (Herald of Slannesh in here).
29 Horrors (Herald of Tzeentch in here).
15 Bloodletters inc Full Command: Icon of Endless War
Notes: following inspiration from ArtificerArmour, the Bloodletters are 'counts as' 4th edition Daemonettes. With their massive claws they should stand out from my other 3rd and 7th edition Daemonettes, while still fitting visually with my theme. I'm drawing the line at including a Herald though, and am even in two minds about including the Khornate Magic Icon. Comments appreciated!

Special

5 Seekers

Rare

4 Flamers
3 Fiends
3 Fiends
Note: I originally wanted the Fiends in one unit, two ranks of three, but I don't think they get monstrous supporting attacks? Any clarification would be great!


Overall, I've replaced some obvious non-Slannesh units (e.g. Screamers) with some counts as units, to make the army more unified Slannesh without sacrificing unit variety. Hopefully, this will make the army a bit more interesting to play against, and certainly feels genuinely Slannesh to me (I paid quite a bit for those 4th edition Daemonettes, so I think I've paid my way!).

Any comments on the list, or general advice on how 8th edition has impacted on Daemons, would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
enyoss

EDIT: If anyone is having a problem with the yellow text, let me know and I'll change it.

squirtopus
23-02-2012, 08:36
As a fellow daemon brother, I'll give you my 2 cents on how 8th edition has impacted daemons.

Forget everything you knew and all the smack you got for playing daemons in 7th, because these days are over. Daemons in 8th in my opinion are hardly a top tier army anymore and whichever build you go, calling them cheesy in this edition is retarded.

Our core is mediocre at best given our horrible magic defense under 2,5k points ( No level 4 under this allowance) so anything you bring other than letters will get absolutely smoked in turn one by some uber 6th spell ( dwellers decimates horrors and nettes, purple sun/pit decimaters horrors, let alone curse of the horned rat which is just plain filthy). So my core advice: you have to bring at least one big block in this edition, and for daemons it have to be letters or you are just gonna bleed VP. daemonettes are a decent 2nd option but never bring em by more than 20 or they'll get ripped to shreds by magic.

general advice nr 2: Always, and i repeat, always bring the sundering standard on your bsb. this is the only way of going die for die with a lvl 4 on magic defense and I can assure you you will need every ounce of magic defense you can get. Furthermore, if you want to make a competitive list: just fill up your special with 2 or 3 units of flesh hounds since they are the only decent special we have, al the rest is downright horrible. In the rare departement both fiends and flamers are ok, but i strongly suggest never to leave your lair with less than 6 flamers 2 units of 3 and 2 fiends usually works well for me.

Even though daemons are only a meeky resemblence of the way OP army they used to be, people to retarded to understand 8th edition yet are still going to lay down the smack if they eventually end up losing to you. If they play either empire, dwarves, skaven , lizardmen or dark elves please tell them with my kind regards to buy a pair of glasses and learn to read properly because these armies are now undisputebly top tier and have generally way better builds than daemons.

But in the end, daemons are fun to play and have nice models, that's what counts so enjoy em!

enyoss
24-02-2012, 10:40
Thanks for the overview. The Great Standard of Sundering is very good, but my worry is that it's a bit of a hoser. I remember being on the receiving end of the banner in a massive 18K game, and my entire High Elf magic phase was shut down thanks to -2 to cast on High Magic, and almost guaranteed miscasts on my remaining mages (who all took the Lore of Light :rolleyes:). In short, I found it really frustrating to play against, rather than challenging, so decided that now I'm running Daemons I'm not going to put anybody else through that! Also, I quite like the idea of leadership bombing with the Great Icon of Despair in conjunction with some of the Slannesh gifts, although I realise I probably haven't maxed out enough to make the most of this.

Good to hear bloodletters are a solid unit, as that's what I'll be using my old daemonettes for (hopefully with no problems using 'counts as').

One question I still have though is about the viability of horrors. It seems that unless you have a massive unit, they're not really that great. Is this generally the case, or are they still a worthwhile addition to the army? I'm not looking for anything stellar, but if they're a complete waste of time (e.g. of the daemon prince calibre) I might think twice about sinking a ton of cash on a big unit. If they're even slightly useful though I'll still put them in, as I like the models and the Slannesh/Tzeentch combo has always appealed to me.

Glemigobles
24-02-2012, 14:48
Our core is mediocre at best - that's a joke, right? With all due respect, daemons are one of the armies that actually got buffed with 8th. They only seem to be worse bacause other armies got better! Speaking only about core: Daemons core units were frightening but now they are horrifying to deal with! And it's only for 12pts per soldier! All core units can have magic rags and are the only ones in the game that can multiply them. I can give only one comment on your statement - Nigga please!
PS
No one is safe from purple sun - tbh deamons are even better prepared for it because of their instant ward. Khorne dudes have a build-in MR too. The only unit that got nerfed are plaguebearers with regen/ward swap. That however means that fire isn't their worst enemy as they are the only regiment in the game which can choose whether they want to regenerate on4+ or have 5+ ward against firebased spells and attacks.

Sorry - daemons and dark elfs are still super duper ;)

Nothing to complain though. It just the way it is (hugh!)

Walls
25-02-2012, 01:56
I think you're mixing up being fair with needing to play a weak army. This army is ok, but most anyone should be able to handle it. You don't need to use "bad" units just to debuff yourself to whatever level. It's really just simple changes. Letters without a herald, no giant blocks, no flamer spam, no Master of Sorcery... small changes make all the difference.