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Gormereth, the Fearmonger
25-12-2009, 02:06
So I'm look over the rules for the Hell-Pit Abomination and I'm noticing a few things (like the fact that it's not immune to psychology for some reason), but a bigger issue is that the HPA doesn't list a flee distance.

Most other units with Random Compulsary movement are either unbreakable or list how far they flee, but the HPA and Night Goblin Squig Hoppers do not. Without a solid movement value of either "below 7" or "above 6" the usual criteria for determining flee kind of falls bit short.

Obviously Squig Hoppers have been around for awhile so if any O&G players out there knows what typical convention they use for flee move that would be interesting/helpful to know for the future.

For the HPA it seems to me that the most common sense distance for it to flee and pursue would be 3D6", but common sense rarely seems common enough when needed, so would this be a concensis amoungst the community at large or is there something I missed in the wording that could help us determine the distance more objectively, like perhaps I've gone blind looking over the HPA rules so many times that I've missed where the answer to my question is clearly listed.

TAW
25-12-2009, 06:26
THe doomwheel uses 3d6 so we just assume it's the same rules.

nosferatu1001
25-12-2009, 06:34
3D6 Flee is the most commonly used distance.

Milgram
25-12-2009, 07:40
just for the fun of it, we started to roll twice. first roll with 3d6 to determine the basic movement and then either 2d6 or 3d6 depending on whether we rolled 7+ or not. we do the same also for the 2d6 movement units since the average for 2d6 is 7 and therefore their movement is arguably 7+.

oh we also roll for aligning purposes when it comes to random movement skirmishers..

stiggie
25-12-2009, 12:55
i dont use skaven or O&G but my guess would be that it flees the distance that it moves?? like if it has 2D6 movement then it flee's 2D6,, 3D6 movement means fleeing 3D6??

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
25-12-2009, 21:50
I agree with Stiggie. Also, given the way the rules are written, I would assume that the A-Bomb does impact hits if he flees into any units (friend or enemy). Granted, its difficult to make the little guy flee in the first place. In my experience, if his rolls are bad enough to make him lose combat, then he is generally dead anyway. Stubborn on an 8 makes the scenerio occur even less often.

havoc626
25-12-2009, 22:58
I like the rule that you mentioned, Milgram, but I'd most likely just go with a single rolling of 3d6, to go in line with other similar units out there.

Milgram
26-12-2009, 06:03
afaik there are no rules for the flight move of any random movement unit out there. no 'the unit moves, pursues and flees 2d6' anywhere. so all we can do is assume a rule. and there are three possible methods:

1) flight/pursue move = regular random movement
2) flight/pursue move = based on average result of random movement (2d6=7, 3d6=10.5)
3) flight/pursue move = based on a situational, definite result for the random movement

1) is the most commonly used, 3) is the (imho) most refined solution and 2) will not get a majority anywhere. :)

Nurgling Chieftain
26-12-2009, 06:52
afaik there are no rules for the flight move of any random movement unit out there. no 'the unit moves, pursues and flees 2d6' anywhere.There is, in fact, and it's in the same book no less: the Doomwheel flees (and pursues) 3d6". Notably it's normal random movement is also 3d6", so support for GaP, I guess.

Foegnasher
28-12-2009, 01:38
You are all wrong. The abomination flees 3d6... +1.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
28-12-2009, 03:47
You are all wrong. The abomination flees 3d6... +1.

It doesn't list "Scurry Away!" as one of its rules. It's the the stupidest thing; it's not listed as "immune to pychology" anywhere so it can declare flee as a charge reaction, but it doesn't get +1. It probably should, might get errata'd to get it, but for now...nothing.

Lord Dan
28-12-2009, 04:39
It's not immune to psychology? So when other skaven-things panic through it, it rolls for panic?

Milgram
29-12-2009, 14:16
There is, in fact, and it's in the same book no less: the Doomwheel flees (and pursues) 3d6". Notably it's normal random movement is also 3d6", so support for GaP, I guess.

as it is in the same book, it further supports my point. because they obviously are aware of the issue with the flight/pursue distance of randomly moving troops. and yet they do not write anything when it comes to the abomination.

this even emphathises a 4th point that I did not mention before because I think it is ridiculous: all troops with random movement flee/pursue 2d6 as they do not have movement 7+ (they have 2d6 or 3d6 which is not absolutely 7 or higher). I had this ruled against my hoppas two years ago at a tournament.

oh, and in absence of a rule for flight/pursuit: if you go for 3d6 movement, would you apply the furious abomination table for any tripples while fleeing/pursuing?

/edit: yes, it is not ItP though this seems odd given the rules for that thingie.

Nurgling Chieftain
29-12-2009, 16:19
I like how you're perfectly willing to take the fact that you were ABSOLUTELY WRONG as support of your point. :cool: Since you're willing to make the same argument whether the underlying fact went either way, I don't think you can legitimately claim that it supports your point at all - since your opinion is obviously independent of such precedent (in that you claim it supports your opinion no matter what it actually is).

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
29-12-2009, 22:42
in absence of a rule for flight/pursuit: if you go for 3d6 movement, would you apply the furious abomination table for any tripples while fleeing/pursuing?

I'd say no, The shambling horror rules state that you pivot the beast in the direction "you wish to travel", when you flee/purse your wishes have little to do with your direction of travel so the shambling horror rule should be superseceeded by basic fleeing rules. Additionally, if shambling horror were to apply while flee then any enemy unit the horror would flee into would actually count as a charge (taken RAW).

Maoriboy007
29-12-2009, 23:49
It doesn't list "Scurry Away!" as one of its rules. It's the the stupidest thing; it's not listed as "immune to pychology" anywhere so it can declare flee as a charge reaction, but it doesn't get +1. It probably should, might get errata'd to get it, but for now...nothing.

Unless I'm wrong, stubborn units can't flee. Is it immune to panic though?

nosferatu1001
29-12-2009, 23:59
You are wrong - stubborn units simply dont modify their leadership by the combat resolution different when testing for Breaking from combat.

It is not Immune to Psychology or panic either.

Lord Zarkov
30-12-2009, 07:28
They can't declare a flee reation to a charge though IIRC, even though they do flee as normal from a failed panic or break test.

nosferatu1001
30-12-2009, 12:07
If you are ItP, you cannot declare "flee". if you are Immune to Panic you can.

Both ItP and ItPanic units take break tests as normal.

Stubborn units take break, panic and declare charge reactions as normal

enyoss
30-12-2009, 12:13
Wow, some posters are really playing fast and loose with the psychology rules here ;).

As for the flee/pursue distance: I'd say 3D6". It makes sense, it has precedent (the Doomwheel), and it's simple.

Lord Zarkov
30-12-2009, 14:00
If you are ItP, you cannot declare "flee". if you are Immune to Panic you can.

Both ItP and ItPanic units take break tests as normal.

Stubborn units take break, panic and declare charge reactions as normal

Oops, seems you are correct - wasn't even the case in 6th Ed so no idea where I got that from.

Milgram
31-12-2009, 09:32
It makes sense, it has precedent (the Doomwheel), and it's simple.

the precedent implies that there has to be a special rule for a 3d6 movement unit in order to get a flight/pursue movement of 3d6. but hey, it is a poorly written book anyways.

Desolate
01-01-2010, 08:07
I think it's 3d6 inches since the doomwheel moves that way.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
02-01-2010, 14:49
After reading the posts and mulling over the question for the last few weeks I have thought of the following argument in favour of 3D6": fleeing represents a unit fleeing for its life and moving as fast as it can; if a unit can move 3D6" at will, then it should be able to move 3D6" when motivated to save its own life.

Would that argument be convincing to people that would argue in favour of 2D6" or RAW purest that might try to argue that it can't flee at all?

Milgram
02-01-2010, 17:23
as you cannot transfer that argument to any other unit...

punkoteloco
02-01-2010, 22:52
I think warhammer is lacking common sense nowadays. I would say it flees 3d6. It is the beast movement, and it doesn´t fit any other fleeing movement rule. Argue all what you want, but i thinks this post shouldnt even be 2 pages long. We miss you common sense...