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FailSafe07
25-12-2009, 12:55
I was flipping through my Dwarf codex the other day and I hadn't really read the rule for Thorgrim at all so I checked it out and I was wondering if he was worth the 780 point price tag?

After all, he gets +1/+4, 7 wounds, 8 Attacks (4 of which ignore armor saves, always wound on 2+ and deal D3 wounds). This isn't to mention that he has Ld 10 (somewhat unsurprisingly) and makes units in any unit he joins immune to fear and terror as well as allowing them to re-roll panic tests. He also hates all enemies.

That's all fantastic, but he's a large target and anyone who takes one look at his stats is going to pepper him with ranged attacks all day. At 780 points, I feel like whoever you're playing is going to do their best to make sure that he wouldn't get into combat.

I feel like he would be impossible to use in any smaller games, maybe in 3k plus games but 780 points plus the lord and hero slots he takes up seem like too much. What do you guys think?

snottlebocket
25-12-2009, 13:05
I was flipping through my Dwarf codex the other day and I hadn't really read the rule for Thorgrim at all so I checked it out and I was wondering if he was worth the 780 point price tag?

After all, he gets +1/+4, 7 wounds, 8 Attacks (4 of which ignore armor saves, always wound on 2+ and deal D3 wounds). This isn't to mention that he has Ld 10 (somewhat unsurprisingly) and makes units in any unit he joins immune to fear and terror as well as allowing them to re-roll panic tests. He also hates all enemies.

That's all fantastic, but he's a large target and anyone who takes one look at his stats is going to pepper him with ranged attacks all day. At 780 points, I feel like whoever you're playing is going to do their best to make sure that he wouldn't get into combat.

I feel like he would be impossible to use in any smaller games, maybe in 3k plus games but 780 points plus the lord and hero slots he takes up seem like too much. What do you guys think?

Like any other dwarf lord, the more expensive he is, the more likely it is he'll never see combat. People just aren't silly enough to charge him and you aren't fast enough to catch a combat worth fighting with a character that expensive.

At near 800 points you'd better have wings or a boatload of ranged options like magic.

Nathangonmad
25-12-2009, 14:59
Like any other dwarf lord, the more expensive he is, the more likely it is he'll never see combat. People just aren't silly enough to charge him and you aren't fast enough to catch a combat worth fighting with a character that expensive.

At near 800 points you'd better have wings or a boatload of ranged options like magic.

Or be sat on an anvil ;P

Gaargod
25-12-2009, 15:02
One use only unfortunately. Deathstar.

Him in a unit of ironbreakers, probably with a BSB, is nigh on impossible to defeat. Takes up vast majority of your points. Take 3 units of thunderers as core, maybe some cannons, that's it for your army. Ideally, you kill as much of your enemy as your easily killed units. Anything that hits the deathstar is dead usually (obsidian bloodthirsters included - combat res hurts)

FailSafe07
25-12-2009, 15:57
I just thought it would be interesting to see an army with a named hero thats not Thorek with a gunline list, but i'm not very good and i'm new to WFB so i wondered if anybody had seen any interesting uses for him.

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
25-12-2009, 17:21
I've been a Dwarf player since 4th Ed., and the unfortunate part about Thorgrim (as well as any other high expense Dwarf character) is his immobility. I agree with Gaargod that the only way he MAY see combat is by tying up all of your points in his unit, and forcing your opponent to actually deal with them for any kind of a victory (its quite easy to give that unit all kinds of defense against shooting, too, so even his large target status is slightly nullified). His taking up a lord and hero slot is just the throw-back to the fact that its a 6th Ed. army book. I'm hoping that when the new book comes out (Grimnir only knows when that will be), that they fix him up some amount to make it worth taking him over the 301 pt official "Dwarf Lord Of Tinyness" build that most people use. I'd also like to see them bring back some of the old characters like Kragg The Grim, but that's enough wish-listing for me in one post :)

Bottom line, for the time being, you're better off leaving The Grudgebearer at home on his throne on top of your miniature display.

FailSafe07
25-12-2009, 17:48
I also just realized that, for some reason, he's 95 more points than Archaon...

Bergen Beerbelly
26-12-2009, 01:57
I am fairly new to Warhammer and I was just reading through the High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer rules in the 6.5 edition dwarf book. I have a question about it. I have tried to do a search to see if I could get my question answered but I cannot find information on it anywhere so I figured this thread is probably the best place to ask.

I see that there are 4 thronebearers. I also see that the thronebearers profile has the number of attacks listed as 4. So does this mean that the total number of attacks from thronebearers is 4...equalling 1 attack per model?...or is it 16 attacks total, equalling 4 attacks per thronebearer model?

Bergen

FailSafe07
26-12-2009, 03:15
It's 4 attacks total. As far as I understand it, the throne acts in exactly the same way a shield bearers. The throne bearers attack with their own profile but they aren't actually a separate part of the model the way, say, a monstrous creature and mount are. The throne, or shield bearers, as the case may be are basically an upgrade for the model that adds to its save, increases its attacks and US. All attacks against the model are also directed at the model as a whole. There is no way to target the throne.

Bergen Beerbelly
26-12-2009, 03:44
Thank you FailSafe07. I kind of figured his rules worked as one model because there are no wound scores listed on the thronebearers stat line, but I wasn't too sure of the attacks simply because I know there are 4 thronebearers and its listed as 4 attacks so I had to ask. Again, thank you for clarification

Bergen

XLast_Of_The_OrderX
26-12-2009, 09:24
Haha, in 4th Ed. you could kill the thronebearers, and render the thing totally immobile. Glad they changed that little bit of sunshine.

klini
26-12-2009, 10:42
Still he is relatively immobile as he is now too. Quite easy to avoid and because of this almost useless (except if you go for named deathstar)

Dungeon_Lawyer
26-12-2009, 11:51
My Nephew plays the deathstar build. He's 10 mind you , and its 20+ ironbreakers, a thane on oath stone, bsb, etc. It murders but is also really alot of fun to go against and see if Thorgrim can be taken. Good test of skills.

I know deathstars get a bad rep but I would counter that a "deathstar " is the only type of unit truly worthy of the High King and holder of the book of grudges. Ill take a Thorgrim DS over the dwaren anvil gun line any day of the week. .... Thorgrim rocks!

Novrain
26-12-2009, 16:12
Could including say a thane o' pain with the Master Rune of Challenge pull the enemy unit into thorgrim? Allowing him to deal mega pain?

FailSafe07
26-12-2009, 17:08
The problem is that Thorgirm counts as a large target. You can pick him out of a crowd and shoot him to death. That 1+/4+ will only save so many shots.

Actually, a couple of questions what US does Thorgrim have? Is he US 3, US 7 or something else? Plus, because he's a large target, he doesn't benefit from look out sir! rules right?

Red Metal
26-12-2009, 18:54
Awesome mini. Lots of conversion opportunities.

Poor Lord choice. Should not be taken unless it's fluffy or you're playing a huge amount of pts.

FailSafe07
26-12-2009, 19:27
Awesome mini. Lots of conversion opportunities.


Seriously. its a shame that all he can really do is sit there looking cool in your collection

w3rm
26-12-2009, 19:32
Hmmm Stick two char with rune of challenges to suck in enemie and he might be worth it.

Red Metal
26-12-2009, 20:17
Hmmm Stick two char with rune of challenges to suck in enemie and he might be worth it.

Can't run two.

MRoChallenge is a Master Rune, thus one copy per army.

snottlebocket
26-12-2009, 21:28
Hmmm Stick two char with rune of challenges to suck in enemie and he might be worth it.

People will see that coming a mile away. And against fully tooled dwarf lords with a fighty bodyguard unit you might as well flee. It's not like they're in a hurry to outmanouvre dwarfs.

bigcheese76
27-12-2009, 00:26
Ive only ever used Thorgrim once in a game but that was a big multiplayer battle with about 20000 points a side. Personally I wouldnt take him in a normal game, and wouldnt use him in anything less than 3000 points.

I did line Thorgrim and his Ironbreaker body guard up nicely, opposite the really expensive Ogre character, but as Thorgrim was so slow, my cannons took the Ogre and his body guard out before Thorgrim got there. When he finally did get into combat it was with some Khorne Daemons and my unit lost about one Ironbreaker and then went through the whole deamons untit into some Slaanesh ones, then through them next turn.

So, when he gets into combat he is probably almost worth his points but getting him there isnt that easy.

Bergen Beerbelly
27-12-2009, 00:52
Not really sure why they call it a deathstar but ok. The tactic was actually developed by the General Epaminondas of the City State of Thebes to take on the Spartans commanded by King Cleombrotus in the year 371 BC at the battle of Leuctra and it worked. Apparently some smart soul decided it may work in Warhammer fantasy and apparently it has.

I like the idea of using him for that. Hey, at least that means he isn't just sitting on your shelf forever.

snottlebocket
27-12-2009, 09:07
Not really sure why they call it a deathstar but ok. The tactic was actually developed by the General Epaminondas of the City State of Thebes to take on the Spartans commanded by King Cleombrotus in the year 371 BC at the battle of Leuctra and it worked. Apparently some smart soul decided it may work in Warhammer fantasy and apparently it has.

I like the idea of using him for that. Hey, at least that means he isn't just sitting on your shelf forever.

Epinombas thought "frell, I don't know how to beat these guys but if we just sit here and do nothing, there's too many of us for the spartans to kill and we'll win on points' ?

Bergen Beerbelly
27-12-2009, 16:46
Actually the Thebans were out numbered by the Spartans. And it is believed he was wondering how to beat them but believed he couldn't just stand there and do nothing so he thought about it for a while and then had a great idea. This is why he (Epaminondas) created the very large unit with many small units in support. In order to create the very large unit he had to take warriors from all of the other phalanx and make the large "Deathstar" that he used at that battle. The other smaller units formed up in echelon formation and supported it, staying far enough back that they never saw hand to hand combat. He harassed the Spartans with shooting and cavalry and eventually smashed into their lines with the huge formation.

In effect yes, he figured that there would be way too many people in the large phalanx for the spartans to be able to stop it and he was correct. So if you draw a parallel from real life to the game of Warhammer Fantasy Battles, yes, he won on points. :D

The tactic was so effective that Alexander the Great used it to conquer most of the known(to europe) world.

FailSafe07
28-12-2009, 00:25
Epinombas thought "frell, I don't know how to beat these guys but if we just sit here and do nothing, there's too many of us for the spartans to kill and we'll win on points' ?

Hahahaha. Any chance I can use that in my sig?

snottlebocket
28-12-2009, 06:33
Hahahaha. Any chance I can use that in my sig?

Go for it. =)

You would have thought anyone seeing those mass formations would have invented the large-object-lobber on the spot. Or any other device that would punish people for clumping on the spot, hell the ancient variant of molotov cocktails would have worked.

FailSafe07
28-12-2009, 11:25
The problem for people like the Spartans facing Epaminondas was that they had nothing in the way of war machines. The only missile weapons that the Spartans would have had were short bows and slings. On top of that the Spartans were extremely traditionalist and believed missile weapons to be cowardly. The first real large-scale weapons like catapults and variants of the ballista were actually pretty small. They were also, however, large and unwieldy enough that they were basically useless in open combat until the Romans started making ballistas that were small enough to drag around pretty easily. They weren't nearly as effective as they are in, oh I don't know, Warhammer.

snottlebocket
28-12-2009, 14:54
The problem for people like the Spartans facing Epaminondas was that they had nothing in the way of war machines. The only missile weapons that the Spartans would have had were short bows and slings. On top of that the Spartans were extremely traditionalist and believed missile weapons to be cowardly. The first real large-scale weapons like catapults and variants of the ballista were actually pretty small. They were also, however, large and unwieldy enough that they were basically useless in open combat until the Romans started making ballistas that were small enough to drag around pretty easily. They weren't nearly as effective as they are in, oh I don't know, Warhammer.

I'm just amazed at how long it took before people caught on to the fact that being a dirty bastard in combat saves lives.

Those big, tightly packed formations, it's more organized suicide than proper battle. Why didn't anyone think 'Im not going to watch my citystate get sacked, Im going to throw jars of flaming oil at the tightly packed suckers, I'm going to dig ditches at night to stumble the whole lot, Im going to creep up at night and slit as many throats as I can while they sleep'.

Gaargod
28-12-2009, 15:53
To be fair, the Thebans also had the advantage that Epaminondas had designed a new, better phalanx, with longer pikes than the Spartans (12 as opposed to 9 feet), and equipped them with the best armour - these were his elite troops.
He then put them against the best troops the Spartans had (again, breaking the normal rules of combat, by putting his best stuff on the left, as opposed to the traditional place of honour on the right). Predictably enough, did not go well for the Spartans.


Alexander (or to be more accurate, his father who was King and overall commander, as opposed to Alexander who just led cavalry, very very well :D ) improved on these by giving his troops the sarissa, a 18foot pike, allowing a full 5 ranks to fight. The Macedonian troops were also extremely hardy and well trained. Plus, the Macedonians used cavalry, specifically the Companian Cavalry led by Alexander, way more effectively than the Greeks, who still relied on infantry. Predictably, did not go well for the Thebans.


/end history lesson


The deathstar in warhammer works in a similar sort of way - mass your biggest, strongest troops in one block and crush the enemy with it. Also has the cynical advantage that with all your points in one place, the game becomes 'break that block or lose'.

Isabel
29-12-2009, 05:58
Didnt Hannibal defeat a massive Roman army, and then most of Italy because of this though? Pushing the Roman army into one massive clump, then encircling them. The roman army (now a deathstar lol) became so tightly packed they could not move properly and were slaughtered. You would think such a large block of people would be unwieldly and a large waste of manpower. I thought Alexander used small elite blocks spread out wide? I may be wrong.

Wow this thread went waaayy off topic :)
Definatly love history discussions though.

Razakel
29-12-2009, 08:22
Didnt Hannibal defeat a massive Roman army, and then most of Italy because of this though? Pushing the Roman army into one massive clump, then encircling them. The roman army (now a deathstar lol) became so tightly packed they could not move properly and were slaughtered. You would think such a large block of people would be unwieldly and a large waste of manpower. I thought Alexander used small elite blocks spread out wide? I may be wrong.

Wow this thread went waaayy off topic :)
Definatly love history discussions though.

Yes I believe he did, though there was a great sigh of relief when he failed to march on Rome and potentially cripple the Roman Empire. As you said, the thread is growing off-topic so on that note;

I have seen him used many times, but it was rarely effectively in a 2,000 Point army, he simply occupied too much space. I once saw a 3,000 Point game against High Elves, with a large amount of Runesmiths to protect Thorgrim from Magic.

Terrain restrictions meant that Thorgrim was obscured from a large amount of the Elven firepower and when he got into combat, it wasn't pretty. He more-or-less massacred half the enemy army with a 30 strong unit of Ironbreakers (though there was no Battle Standard Bearer).

Lemonbrick
29-12-2009, 09:52
anvils, strollaz rune and the other rune that causes someone to maybe charge you (rune of challenge)

but again all these things would be pouring even more points and ither chars into delivering thorgrim to combat.

that being said I love the model

FailSafe07
29-12-2009, 15:42
I think another problem is that besides the point costs, there many more cheaper, more cost effective options. Anvil Runelords or Thorek especially.

Lemonbrick
29-12-2009, 18:54
i think Thorek might be an elf.

Jind_Singh
30-12-2009, 18:10
its a shame they (GW rule designers) write great stories for special characters like Thorgrim, Greasus Goldtooth, etc, and then make them so overpriced for what they do that unless you play the 5000pt and up, theres no reason to take them!
I like what they did with the special slann - kroak? Nerfed some of his abilites but dropped his points were he MIGHT see games!
Thorgrim needs to be tinkered with until he's worth around 450 pts but can still take down greater deamons - afterall how does the current price point justify his existance in the dwarf army?!
Same goes for Greasus too - way to pricy and restrictive to be used in any games smaller than 3500-4000pts.

Razakel
30-12-2009, 23:46
Yeah, when I got the new Imperial Guard codex I noticed there were lots of cool, cheap Sergeants you could add to your unit with interesting special rules. Somewhere in the region of 25-50 Points usually and I thought that was a really good idea. I REALLY HOPE they do the same thing for the next version of Fantasy.

Its such a shame to have such cool characters that will never see the light of day.

Isabel
31-12-2009, 07:15
In makes sense from a fluff point of view though. I dont see the High King showing up to a battle unless he has a massive army along with him.

snottlebocket
31-12-2009, 07:25
Yeah, when I got the new Imperial Guard codex I noticed there were lots of cool, cheap Sergeants you could add to your unit with interesting special rules. Somewhere in the region of 25-50 Points usually and I thought that was a really good idea. I REALLY HOPE they do the same thing for the next version of Fantasy.

Its such a shame to have such cool characters that will never see the light of day.

They already are, the demon army book had a bunch of unit champion level special characters like the three headed fleshhound and the horror changeling.

Razakel
31-12-2009, 07:49
They already are, the demon army book had a bunch of unit champion level special characters like the three headed fleshhound and the horror changeling.

Thats awesome, really glad to hear that. Haven't had a chance to look through the Daemons book yet, although I did notice that sort of thing in the Dark Elf army too, though.

The Red Scourge
01-01-2010, 14:02
I also just realized that, for some reason, he's 95 more points than Archaon...

Archie got 180 points and 2 hero slots cheaper, while loosing his only weakness and gaining quite a few new strengths from 6th to 7th :p

AtnaShadow
02-01-2010, 01:03
Epinombas thought "frell, I don't know how to beat these guys but if we just sit here and do nothing, there's too many of us for the spartans to kill and we'll win on points' ?

Off topic, but Frell? Is that a FarScape reference by chance, or is that more commonly said than I thought.

snottlebocket
02-01-2010, 07:13
Off topic, but Frell? Is that a FarScape reference by chance, or is that more commonly said than I thought.

Oh it's farscape alright. Series that good tend to rub off on me. (firefly was awesome to but I'll be damned if I can learn how to curse in chinese)