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Cartoon
26-12-2009, 04:48
With a game like Warhammer, it's inevitable that certain armies are going to be stronger than others. To what degree is where things tend to go wrong. Armies like Daemons and VC tend to attract the ire of some gamers as they have the potential (note potential, not that fielding them automatically does so) to really throw off the balance of the game. There are enough threads on Warseer discussing which armies are over the top, so I'd like to discuss what people feel is an ideal power level (or the closest army to it).

Personally I feel that WOC are right in the sweet spot of not to powerful but not to weak. I know there are a few people here that believe WOC to be pretty underpowered, but I think they at least have a fighting chance against most armies. There doesn't seem to be a list that is completely broken either.

I guess I would define ideal as an army that is challenging to play against, but that every other army will be able to at least show up against. Lizard men might also fit the bill, and the new skaven as well. What does everyone think?

-Grimgorironhide-
26-12-2009, 04:56
I would say empire is at the right level.
Sure they have some powerbuilds( i.e war altar, 2 stanks, KF on dragon) but all in all they have decent but not OTT units/characters and can compete fairly well in the competitive scene.

cheers.

Condottiere
26-12-2009, 05:02
I'm inclined to think Dark Elves are the most balanced, if somewhat undercosted, army at present.

Emeraldw
26-12-2009, 05:11
I'm inclined to think Dark Elves are the most balanced, if somewhat undercosted, army at present.

uh....what? :eyebrows:

I assume you mean in absence of point costs which is part of the way you balance armies, then yes I might agree with you.

High Elves and Empire are both pretty good books overall that have some good options and you might add Lizardmen & Warriors to the list. Not sure on Skaven.

vardenleah
26-12-2009, 05:16
chaos dwarves

Souppilgrim
26-12-2009, 05:32
Lizardmen.

Seville
26-12-2009, 05:37
I feel like Empire, WoC, Lizardmen, and High Elves are all very well balanced and a pleasure to play as and against.

Urgat
26-12-2009, 06:08
Since "balanced" is only in comparison to something else, I can't see how someone can give a name with a straight face. What average do you take? Compared to what army, or even which edition? If all the armies were at deamons level, they'd all be well balanced, as they would be if they were all at TK or OnG level. Taking an army out of context and saying "that's the one that is well balanced" is just equal to saying "my taste dictates that it's how the game should be". Therefore, it's just equal to asking "which is your favourite army?", so yeah...

Cartoon
26-12-2009, 06:28
I guess, but there are some pretty big differences between what your favorite army might be and how well it relates to all the other armies of Warhammer. There are certain armies that don't have massive advantages over other armies and yet won't get obliterated by them either. I would think most players would want armies that are comparable in power and options (although exact equality wouldn't work, obviously) with each other so as not to give a decided advantage to one player before the match even starts.

All I'm asking is which army books people think were written well in this regard when you compare that army book against all the other ones. Does it have tons of uberpowerful combinations that most other armies can't even hope to compete against, or does it allow for a relatively even match up. Are points set at the right amount, and are unit stats at the right place so as not to be way undercosted?

That's why I felt that WOC or Lizardmen might be well written in that regard, as units tend to be priced fairly for what you get when you compare it to most other armies.

Also, Lizardmen are definitely not my favorite army, or even close. I do like WOC, however, because I love the models and feel that the book is fairly written when compared to the rest of Warhammer.

Darkmaw
26-12-2009, 06:40
I second Condottiere that Dark Elves (my 2nd choice is Skaven) has the ideal power level.

It is a very versatile book which enables many different builds, all which are competitive in nature. Also the units have synergy amongst them.

An opposite example would be WOC. They have very strong individual units, like Hellcannon and Chaos Knights. But the army as a whole somehow does not gel together.

Seville
26-12-2009, 07:03
Since "balanced" is only in comparison to something else, I can't see how someone can give a name with a straight face. What average do you take? Compared to what army, or even which edition? If all the armies were at deamons level, they'd all be well balanced, as they would be if they were all at TK or OnG level. Taking an army out of context and saying "that's the one that is well balanced" is just equal to saying "my taste dictates that it's how the game should be". Therefore, it's just equal to asking "which is your favourite army?", so yeah...


I second Condottiere that Dark Elves (my 2nd choice is Skaven) has the ideal power level.

Oh boy. I see this thread going downhill fast from here. :shifty:

kyussinchains
26-12-2009, 11:47
I agree with Urgat really, balance is simply in the eye of the beholder, almost every army can be power-built through min-maxing and nasty characters/magic items.

Daemons appear to be the exception however as it appears very difficult to build an army that isn't very very tough, however the only thing that really determines how unbalanced an army is would be the person selecting and playing that army.... a relatively fun Dark elf army would be mopped up in short order by a HE star dragon/seer council list, yet people would still argue that the dark elves are 'less balanced'

havoc626
26-12-2009, 12:09
I'm going to go ahead and say that Tomb King are at the ideal power level along with the other 'weaker' armies, such as Orcs and Gobblins and Ogre Kingdoms. I think that TK are at the perfect level while the other two are also close. Now, before I get roasted for saying this, let me explain.

Each army has key strengths and key weaknesses, along with individual tactics that are used with each army. Look at TK, key strengths are that they all have the 'Undead' rule and their movement through magic was something that no other army had that could be used on any unit of their army. As for weaknesses their troops are expensive for the statline that they have and they run into problems against heavy magic defence and ItP armies.

I just find that the newer army books have moved too far away from this and that it seems every army has its own form of something, be it a giant monster or a big cannon (eg, Skaven getting the HPA and WoC having the Hellcannon. Not saying that either of them are overpowered, just that it is removing a key weakness of that army that I find gives a better feel about the army and greater divisions between each army).

kyussinchains
26-12-2009, 17:08
the other interpretation of the OP's question is which army/armies have the most balanced approach to warfare.... dwarfs are never going to outflank and outmaneuvre an opponent, but they definitely have the capability of pounding them into a pulp from a distance, however their method of warfare relies on war machines thinning the enemy ranks and solid combat troops fighting off the survivors of the barrage, they simply do not have the option of an all-cavalry or magic-heavy army, making them less 'balanced' in overall tactics, whereas Dark Elves can field a gunline of sorts, they can also play no-touch, MSU/E, seer council, all cavalry and various themed builds (Raiding party/Khainite) giving them a 'balanced' approach to the game.

Emeraldw
26-12-2009, 17:13
Rereading the OP, it seems he is referring to the actual strength of the army, in comparison to others like other threads have before.

Now if we look at books in regards to builds or internal balance, I believe the Deamon book is a true triumph. The internal balance in the book is very good, you can take anything and make a pretty good list, which is great from an army point of view.

Now in comparison to other armies, Daemons are clearly stronger than others, but if all books were like Daemons, there wouldn't be an issue huh?

In terms of power I hope coming books are more like Lizardmen and Warriors but have internal balance like Daemons.

kyussinchains
26-12-2009, 17:22
Rereading the OP, it seems he is referring to the actual strength of the army, in comparison to others like other threads have before.

Now if we look at books in regards to builds or internal balance, I believe the Deamon book is a true triumph. The internal balance in the book is very good, you can take anything and make a pretty good list, which is great from an army point of view.

Now in comparison to other armies, Daemons are clearly stronger than others, but if all books were like Daemons, there wouldn't be an issue huh?

In terms of power I hope coming books are more like Lizardmen and Warriors but have internal balance like Daemons.

good points, I would like the army lists to have more balance and make every unit a viable choice, as it stands there are lots of units in lots of armies which rarely see the light of day as they are just not worth bothering with due to being weak, overcosted or simply redundant....

Nathangonmad
26-12-2009, 17:25
Goku because his power level is over 9000

Cartoon
26-12-2009, 17:30
Yeah, the strongest books seem to have excellent synergy with most units providing a specialized strength that goes together well with the rest of the army. This is a weak point of WOC, IMO, because almost everything is built just to run up and smash stuff. Warriors, chosen, ogres, and knights all do the same thing and knights are much better at it.

I agree that DOC book has strong internal balance and can bring a variety of builds to the table. It would be nice to see that in more army books, as oppose to just a couple viable builds (although I'm more of a "use the units I think look cool" kind of a guy).

Thanks for the replies everyone.

TheMav80
26-12-2009, 17:41
I think Lizardmen, High Elves, Dark Elves, and Skaven are right around the same area. They all do pretty well internally, being able to create a variety of good builds.

Externally they certainly each have their power builds (or just frustrating ones like a LM list with 5 Stegs). Over all though I don't think it is too bad, especially if you aren't playing with a bunch of jerks. Each of these books can make soft lists and very competitive tournament lists and anything in between. So gaming groups can decide for themselves how they want to play the game.

I think WoC, WE and Empire come very close to this. I don't have much experience with Empire. WoC has a decent external power level, but internally it seems pretty crap.

All the other armies I don't have enough experience with. Excepting Ogres. While they are one of the most fun armies for me to play the don't stack up well against others. Haven't for a while. I find myself having to play avoidance MSU. Fleeing all the time. Which is fine tactically, I can have fun doing it, just doesn't seem to fit how I think an OK army would really function.

Lordsaradain
26-12-2009, 18:02
Empire gets my vote.

Veloxnex
26-12-2009, 18:47
Daemons are the only balanced book in warhammer, every unit is a viable choice.

all the other books need to be re worked

Lowmans
27-12-2009, 01:43
Daemons seem a popular choice but they are not balanced within the roster of army books.

Internally they are not as bad as some but I've seen few lists with GUO, Daemon Princes, Beasts of Nurgle and even Daemonettes and Bloodletters. I have seen a heavy bias toward BloodThirsters, Horrors, PlagueBearers, FleshHounds and Flamers.

This could just be a local phenomenon tho.

Taishar
27-12-2009, 02:38
Rofl, demons all units being viable. Screamers, Nurglings, Beasts of Nurgle, Demon Princes and to a lesser extent bloodcrushers, seekers, and demonettes are all subpar choices. Also, greater demons (well...besides GUO), pink horrors, flesh hounds, and flamers are significantly better then they should be. The main thing that breaks demons is you can make an army of *only* the better choices (as there is one in each slot type).

Dark Elves are IMO the strongest book right now, in terms of power. They are also extremely balanced; nearly any style list can win. They have several poor special choices, but when there are four great ones it hardly matters.


Cheers

Lord Dan
27-12-2009, 02:55
I've always felt Wood Elves were pretty close to level.

Laurela
27-12-2009, 04:44
Lizardmen imo, assuming you aren't going ultra magic heavy.

Cartoon
27-12-2009, 19:32
I'm not to familiar with the Lizardmen book, how diverse are they? Are there multiple styles of play like there are with DE, or is it focused on just magic heavy?

As far as internal balance is concerned, I think DE are probably the best book of the lot. As was said earlier, there are many different ways to build a DE army. I wish my WOC could say the same thing.

Seville
27-12-2009, 20:43
As far as internal balance is concerned, I think DE are probably the best book of the lot. As was said earlier, there are many different ways to build a DE army. I wish my WOC could say the same thing.

Well, my WoC say the same thing. I don't know what's wrong with yours. May I suggest operator error? ;)

Urgat
27-12-2009, 21:11
I agree that DOC book has strong internal balance and can bring a variety of builds to the table.

I don't. Not sure about core, but there's a no brainer choice for both special and rares. Yeah, the other choices are good, they'd be golden in another army... but yeah, flesh hounds and flamers... Both excellent, can deal with any situation... that's no balance.


Daemons seem a popular choice but they are not balanced within the roster of army books.

Internally they are not as bad as some but I've seen few lists with GUO, Daemon Princes, Beasts of Nurgle and even Daemonettes and Bloodletters. I have seen a heavy bias toward BloodThirsters, Horrors, PlagueBearers, FleshHounds and Flamers.

This could just be a local phenomenon tho.

Woops, missed that. So what he said. And no, it's not a local phenomenon.

Cartoon
28-12-2009, 00:20
Well, my WoC say the same thing. I don't know what's wrong with yours. May I suggest operator error? ;)

WOC certainly do not have the same versitility that DE and many other armies have. Don't get me wrong, I love the army, it's just most lists are of the "run up and smash away" variety. I do have lots of fun doing this, but almost every unit in the book has this sole purpose. They do it pretty well, especially knights and chosen, but there isn't much in the way variety.

I guess you can make it cavalry or infantry centric, which I do (infantry) and add some magic support and a hellcannon for fun and to liven things up a bit. I like my block of chosen smashing through stuff along with their chariot buddies and that list plays quite differently than an all cavalry list so I guess there is some variety. Add in the different marks and one list will probably play different from another.

enyoss
28-12-2009, 00:49
When it comes to internal balance I reckon High Elves are pretty good, with the exception of the Silver Helm issue.

Freman Bloodglaive
28-12-2009, 07:35
Empire were the definition of a balanced army, when 7th edition first started, but they were quickly downgraded into a generally weak (although with some strong builds) army.

I would say Dark Elves would be the most balanced army now. Although you can build a friendly all-comers list (in fact a lot of them) if you have to you can ramp up the cheese and take on anyone's tournament list.

Stronginthearm
28-12-2009, 17:23
Oh boy. I see this thread going downhill fast from here. :shifty:

(singing) Here we go here we go here we gooooo:p

I personally Like the empire as the balanced army, but thats probably because they are so versitile, beyond that, idk

Melkirich
29-12-2009, 16:38
All this talk of power levels isn't quite hitting the spot: each warhammer army has opponents it is easier/harder to fight against. There is an element of "scissor-paper-stone" in Warhammer, not just power level, and this becomes more apparent the more "beardy" your list is.

For example: Some of the most challenging battles when I was using my Khornate Daemons (lots of fleshhounds) were against Brettonian and Empire Knights, but High Elf Swordmasters/Archers didn't have a chance against me, and of course: against Dark Elf Dark-Riders + heavy magic it wasn't even worth even deploying my army.

Kalandros
29-12-2009, 17:24
Dark Elves have, for the most part, the most balanced army list.
It is only unbalanced with a few things:
Assassins (completely breaks the nice balance the army had so far), Pendant of Kaeleth and Ring of Hotek. I would also say that Hatred makes the army a bit too reliable in close combat.

If you fix a few things, then you have the perfectly balanced army.

PeG
29-12-2009, 19:01
as often it comes down to specific builds although I agree that empire is a well balanced army capable of playing all phases in the game and also following all the rules in the game ie no ASF, no ITP etc

As I have said before I among other things play daemons (and WoC, HE, Skaven etc) and my Slaanesh list (no GD, no special characters, no -LD banner) is actually rather balanced vs most other armies (and in the case its not balanced it is usually because they get severly beaten)

RGB
29-12-2009, 20:01
Empire has historically had decent internal balance, although some choices are certainly stronger than others in the current metagame. Knights are golden now (perform well vs. lots of high-S, low unit strength units becaue they don't take casualties and can kill in return and not face a lot of static res.), but they're not really that hot vs. older horde armies like O&G and Empire itself.

Priests are excellent now against armies with a million PD, but would be overcosted in a different metagame.

It really depends on how the rest of the armies are.

Of the new armies, DE have several good builds, but once again some choices are better than others; ditto Demons.

WoC are a great example of poor internal balance; much like Empire, in the current metagame all they need is knights and light cav.

TheRaven
29-12-2009, 21:46
To look at power levels (As it appears that is what the original poster was asking) we need to examine 4 groups that currently exist in the current warhammer world. The first group is the bottom feeders, the armies that have had their lists pretty far removed and are in a pretty hurting state right now, those being:

Tier 4

Khemri
Orcs and Goblins
Ogre Kingdoms

Thankfully Khemri will get a new book next year, ogre kingdoms are who knows how far off and O&G will be out in 2011. That being the bottom of blanced lists lets look at the next group. The current Tier 3 armies were basically anything released in previous to 2008, most of the armies were fairly balanced and even now can compete with a few power builds. What differentiates a tier 3 army from a tier 2 army in my mind is build stength. To me a tier 2 army has a variety of different builds that it can use in a competative environment while tier 3 armies generally have "A" build that they use to try and win tournaments, such as High Elves Dragon Build, Empire Steam Tank Spam, Dwarf Thorek Gunline ect. These armies are:

Tier 3

Dwarfs
High Elves
Empire
Wood Elves


Now prior to 2008 the balance was roughly maintained, high elves being the last pre-2008 armies had a good edge, gunlines were dominant in the meta game, things were well, then Vampire Counts hit...... and everything exploded on the competative level, they were far more dominant than anything that came before them and forever changed the game, some tournaments comped them ubscene amounts to try and balance things out. After them the chaos continued with... Chaos! Which has the potential of being quite OP and cheezy, and then there was one final OP list to come out, Dark elves. Thost 3 armies are basically the top of the back right now with Chaos being way ahead, dark elves behind them and then vampire counts in third. Vampire counts are interesting in that, every other army has trouble with them, however, Vampire counts have alot of trouble with dark elves and Chaos basically making them a tier "1.5" kind of thing. If I remember correctly the last major UK tournament had 8 of the top 10 spots taken by deamons and the other 2 by dark elves, that just gives you an idea of their power level, so to sumarize:

Tier 1

Chaos
Dark Elves

Tier 1.5

Vampire counts

However there was hope! Instead of letting the "Power Creep" run rampant and make every new army even more nuts to compete, some restraint was shown with the book released in 2009, Lizardmen Wariors of Chaos and Skaven were all for the most part well written, balanced and exciting books. They did not have the power level of the 2008 bombshells and would probably beat the pre-2008 armies more often thann not, but they did show a good sign that army books were heading in the right direction, and hopefully that continues into 2010.

Tier 2

Lizardmen
Warriors of Chaos
Skaven

So form a balance prospective tier 2 and 3 armies are probably the best thing to go for. Beastmen will be out in a month and a bit so who knows what they will be like, hopefully we won't see another 2008 next year. This all goes out the windor though if you aren't playing with a group of competative min/maxers, if everyone is out to have fun and no one tries to make OP lists then all armies can be enjoyed.

Brother Edwin
30-12-2009, 11:30
I think:

Underpowerd:

Beastmen.
Ogres.
Tomb kings.
Orcs and gobbos.

Overpowerd:

Dark elves.
Daemons.