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Kalist
26-12-2009, 14:49
I was trying to think of an Orcs & Goblins list that could stand toe to toe with some of the tougher army builds out there (dual hydra/CoK dark elves, all mounted WoC with sorcerors on disks, DoC with bloodthirster/other nasties) and came up with a rough idea.

Basically, you take 4 units of ~30 night goblins, 3 fanatics each, 2 units of 5 goblin wolf riders, 8 spear chukkas, 2 giants, and then fill out your heroes with a ld boost and magic defense. Chukkas focus fire on anything dangerous while fanatics punish the enemy on the way in and giants move in from the sides to finish them off or hunt for monsters that didn't fall to the spear chukkas.

What kind of O&G list would you take to a tough tournament? I mean tough like the builds listed above, not disgusting like VC doggy deathstar or shadestar etc.

snottlebocket
26-12-2009, 14:52
You'll never get greenskins to be reliably cheesy since you... well can't rely on them. Fanatics don't make for a cheesy battle, just an annoying one, most of the time they'll be cluttering up the table bothering both players.

If you want to dish out some pain, just load up on boltthrowers, stick non essential characters in chariots and hope you do enough harm while your army squables.

Orcs and goblins are for fun, if you want cheesy play something else. (this isn't criticism, this is the reason why O&G are probably the best designed army in the game)

Kalist
26-12-2009, 15:13
Good point. I play warhammer for fun (as do most of us) and don't take OTT lists with my other armies. The thing that attracted me to O&G is pretty much the awesomeness of giants and the randomness of the army. My local club has a few tournaments a year and there are often quite a few really tough (but not disgusting) armies there and I was wondering what kind of O&G list (if any) could give them a real run for their money.

snottlebocket
26-12-2009, 15:16
Good point. I play warhammer for fun (as do most of us) and don't take OTT lists with my other armies. The thing that attracted me to O&G is pretty much the awesomeness of giants and the randomness of the army. My local club has a few tournaments a year and there are often quite a few really tough (but not disgusting) armies there and I was wondering what kind of O&G list (if any) could give them a real run for their money.

The parts that can semi reliably do damage. Most notably mass boltthrowers, other artillery and giants. Properly supported by the stuff that makes them work.

Rely on your artillery to cause pain. Rely on your fast cavalry to gain some measure of boardcontrol. (this is where it already get's iffy, fast cav suffers from animosity)

Storak
26-12-2009, 21:58
Beardy O&G are impossible under current rules. we are using the worst 7th edition army book.

what can be done, is a one-off win, by tailoring against certain lists. but even that needs skill and luck.

ICLRK625
26-12-2009, 22:08
Beardy O&G are impossible under current rules. we are using the worst 7th edition army book.

what can be done, is a one-off win, by tailoring against certain lists. but even that needs skill and luck.

That's not entirely true. Although far from the best list, a Night Goblin gunline loaded with Fanatics is extremely frustrating to play against in some cases.

Storak
26-12-2009, 22:18
That's not entirely true. Although far from the best list, a Night Goblin gunline loaded with Fanatics is extremely frustrating to play against in some cases.

you will not win with those lists, against a prepared opponent.

he is looking for a "Orcs & Goblins list that could stand toe to toe with some of the tougher army builds"

the secret of those builds is, that they work well against most setups and armies. and they dominate the game.

the fanatics list is passive. a prepared enemy will just bring some more warmachines, dogs and magic.

the fanatics list will struggle to achieve draws against a prepared opponent. and yes, it will be very frustrating games.

scarvet
26-12-2009, 23:10
I would say go for Boy spam: 'Ard Boys, Arrow Boys, Black Orc. Get as many T4 Unit possible. Find some points for wolf rider and spear chuckar, and use a timely Waaarrgh to smash everything at once.

amplebob
27-12-2009, 03:04
I've found considerable sucess at 2000pts with Orc great shaman with itty ring and three power stones backed up by two mushroom toting n goblin shamans on chariots. Throw in several war machines, A BSB black orc on boar, a couple big units of orcs and some spider/wolf riders to round off and you have a very powerful list.
But its so difficult to make a cheesy O&G list, I class the above as only competative in the current climate.

Kalist
27-12-2009, 05:17
You have to be insanely lucky to do well with a magic heavy O&G list. The miscast table scares the poop out of me. Imagine miscasting vs WoC when they have infernal puppet (why wouldn't they have one?).

Thanks for the input guys. After reading through the army book several times and trolling through numerous forum threads I've come up with an idea of an army I'd like to field:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4243691#post4243691

Does that look anything like an army that might have a shot or am I way off the mark?

Thanks for any criticism.

Storak
27-12-2009, 07:53
that list is a pretty typical (and not bad!), but not beardy.

the giants are actually weak against shooty lists.

Harwammer
27-12-2009, 09:33
I agree with Storak, thats a pretty balanced list. Against opponents with limited access to ranged attacks the giants can be brutal, but likewise enemy shooting will be brutal to your giants so that balances out.

Personally I wouldn't want to use so many bolt throwers or take as much magic defence. I feel many OnG generals over-invest in magic defence as it is so cheap (often they have nothing worth defending; OnG blocks normally have enough bodies to take a lot of punishment!). With two giants in the list, maybe it is a bit more justifiable though!

@Kalist: you don't have to be 'insanely lucky' to do well with a magic heavy OnG list, sure the miscast table can be a bit more deadly but your goblin support mages are cheap and expendable, while your main orc shaman is tough and resilient. Warpath and Waaagh! can be real game winners (hell, I've had a level 2 orc practically win a 2250 game for me with a well placed 1st turn warpath causing huge panic waves... okay, maybe that was insanely lucky, but it was a wyvern warlod list, not magic heavy)!

Da GoBBo
27-12-2009, 22:52
So yes, quite lucky :)

An orc and gobin army needs synarchy (abuse the size matters and waaagh!rule, and cheapness of some units). More so than other armies. We don't have really powerfull lords, are not extrémely tough, don't have an awesome magic phase, can't be truly shooty ... etc. We do have some very good support choices. A standard troopchoice, supported by a not too expensive character, a chariot and any other support choice is pretty reliable and not to expensive. I build my army around setups like this and it's been doing pretty well. 30 shieldorcs, supported by a bigboss and a chariot scare people off.

Our biggest problem is the lack of special choices. In my experience our best support choices are special choices. Up to about 1250 point armies O&G rock the table versus most armies, but we are lacking when points increase. One extra special slot would really help this army. Or the option to fill rare slots with special choices.

edit: beardy O&G? Don't really think it can be done. Spamming chariots would be my best shot. Big gamble though, which doesn't contribute to being beardy and the army will seriously lack in some departments.

w3rm
27-12-2009, 23:12
Hah Sav Orc WB and 3 SOBB all in chariots with three units of 6 wolf riders for core than 4 boar chariots than four pump wagons. 30 Models all fun hahah!

wingedserpant
28-12-2009, 11:22
Basicly it rather hard to find a list to go toe to toe with the cheesier builds of the harder armies.


However I recommend taking whatever you want and just practice.

Bolt throwers and 30 strong mobs of boyz are strongly recommended.

Brother Edwin
28-12-2009, 21:43
I say a lord on wyvern for the ld and the fact he is a flying rank breaker.

A few shamens with scrolls mainly.

a unit of squig hoppers, 6 bolt throwers and 2 giants. Maby even 8 bolt throwers.

4ish units of wolf riders for misdirecting.

A few ork blocks.

The army would be defensive and counter attackish.


To beat demons you need to be able to kill his bloodthurster/lord of change/kairos. Once you have done this you have a fighting chance. The bolt throwers are the best bet.

To beat VC you need at least a bit of magic defence, but the main thing is to attack them on many fronts. They have a lot of magic but it wont help if their entire army is being engaged and slowly worn down. Plus if you want to be nasty you can claim he cant cast invocation into combat.

Dark elves are pure nasty whatever they have. Pray the bolt throwers take down the dragon if he has one. Thow giants are very nice against hydras, thump with club is nice as they have I2. Thow even then they have regen and rip apart a giant themselves.....

Chicago Slim
31-12-2009, 13:40
Beardy? Yeah, I like the 8 chariots approach-- though I load them up with Black Orc characters, so that they automatically surge d6" when I call the Waagh!. Of course, that's only about 1000 points, so you get to bring a TON of core to stumble over... :(


Alternatively, you could bring a horde: four big units of Boyz (I like 28 Boyz, choppa and shield, with full command: 198 points), each with a Black Orc character on a Boar, so they never squabble. That's about 1300 points, leaving you plenty for war machines (8 spear chukkas and 2 doom divers runs you another 480 points) and maybe some fast cavalry or something.

You'll have to take Mork's Spirit Totem, which still leaves you a little light on antimagic (5 dispel dice, no scrolls), but the idea is that you take your beating with any direct-damage spells, and stop anything that'll change the tactical shape of the battle. Soften the enemy up with artillery, and then use the Waagh! to help get the charges in when it counts...

Hardly beardy, but it's the most dependable army you can bring.

Nuada
31-12-2009, 14:40
You could try out an orcy magic heavy build Kalist. They're ok, i've tried them in 2 tournys now. Your weakness with orcs is going to be psychology tests, waaagh spell allows you to charge with itp. All the 2nd lvl and 4th lvl orc shamans throw 4 power dice if they get the waaagh spell (PS's) It's roughly 73% chance of casting, 13% chance of miscast, 12% of IF. Figures may be slightly off i'm just guessing. Your generals Ld will be one lower, (only a hero BO) but i think it's worth the risk.

I had sav orc units with add chops (itp), big block of orc boyz with add chops, 4 orc chariots and 4 pump wagons (itp) The savage have low WS and alot of attacks, the reroll to all missed hits helps alot. The trick is to line up your units facing enemy units you want to charge.
Hope that helps :)

Slayerthane
04-01-2010, 20:59
Well personally I would start off by trying to minimize animosity as much as possible, which means take at least 1 unit of black orcs. Also, focus on magic defense rather than offense with Mork's Totem, maybe one goblin shaman as a scroll caddy mounted in a chariot, and then get black orc characters for the rest of your hero/lord slots.

Giants are a decent hammer because of their high strenght and toughness and don't suffer from animosity. Not sure about squig hoppers, I know they're immune to psychology but I don't know if they have to test for animosity. I agree that fanatics are more annoying than anything else but they're fun.

For artillery, goblin doom divers are good, but unfortunately you only have 2 rare slots so instead I'd just load up on 4 spear chuckas instead.

I think it's possible to make a reliable, hard hitting list but not necessarily one that can go toe to toe with some of the overpowered armies.

Tuch
07-01-2010, 21:48
Well personally I would start off by trying to minimize animosity as much as possible

I feel this is the biggest issue to address as well. Taking 2 units of 29 boys with a Black Orc leading them (one being the BSB with the Morks Banner) goes along ways in upping the reliability. I usually include a 12 man unit of Black Orcs as well. That's now 3 reliable units as well as a large chunk of my magic defense.

A unit of NGs however large you like lead by a NG Shaman and the Staff of Sneaky Stealing finishes up the magic defense. A unit of 25 or so can hold the flank reasonably well when given bows and 2 fanatics. The bonus is you usually wont care if they fail animosity a few times as just sitting a march move or 2 off the line is enough for them to do their job. Hell just the fear of fanatics keeps most US1 fliers and fast cavalry away from the side completely. Mixed with Stand and Shoot there is a good chance to knock off 2 or more models before combat.

So now with 4 units that do what I want when I want as a base there is still lots of room to add whatever I like. Plus there is another character slot that could be used for another Black Orc / Orc unit or to throw a lord on a Wyvern.

I realize this isn't really a formula for a beardy list but it does help me hold up against some of the more powerful lists among VC and Lizards, and it does reasonably well against non cheezy DOC.

WhiteKnight
08-01-2010, 00:28
A tactic I heard for fanatics that is pretty broken is where you get 20 night goblins all lined up in one line. Then you deploy them in the middle of your deployment zone. In your turn, wheel them 90 degrees. This should put you within 8" of an enemy unit. Fanatics go out, and now you can throw away the gobbo unit while the fanatics cause a little panic. If you encounter terrain issues, it won't be as effective, but I've seen it work very nastily.

Urgat
08-01-2010, 04:37
Basically, you take 4 units of ~30 night goblins, 3 fanatics each, 2 units of 5 goblin wolf riders, 8 spear chukkas, 2 giants, and then fill out your heroes with a ld boost and magic defense. Chukkas focus fire on anything dangerous while fanatics punish the enemy on the way in and giants move in from the sides to finish them off or hunt for monsters that didn't fall to the spear chukkas.

That's more or less the only very nasty list you can do (someone called it the gob pillbox iirc). The original version (probably the nastiest one) goes as follows:
you fill in the specials with chukkas, the rares with doom divers. Then you take Skarsnik for the delaying rules (every gunline would like to have him I guess). You fill in your character slots with shamans. Then you take loads of minimum size night gob units with bows and fanatics. The fanatics are there more for delaying (again) than actually dealing damage: with tons of fanatics whirling between the two armies, few will dare charge through. Then you just pick up a target, destroy/panick, then switch to the next target and so on. It's far from being the ultimate gunline, but it has a lot of help increasing the number of rounds it can fire, which, for gunlines, is priceless.

It's also probably very boring to play.


A tactic I heard for fanatics that is pretty broken is where you get 20 night goblins all lined up in one line. Then you deploy them in the middle of your deployment zone. In your turn, wheel them 90 degrees. This should put you within 8" of an enemy unit. Fanatics go out, and now you can throw away the gobbo unit while the fanatics cause a little panic. If you encounter terrain issues, it won't be as effective, but I've seen it work very nastily.

That's the fanatic slingshot, and it's usualy regarded as very bad sport, don't be surprised if you lose opponents trying that :p

Da GoBBo
08-01-2010, 21:47
Not to mention impossible. You still can't move more than 8", so you would never be able to complete that 90 degree wheel.

TMATK
08-01-2010, 21:54
Not to mention impossible. You still can't move more than 8", so you would never be able to complete that 90 degree wheel.

I though so to, but that limit is technically for reforming, not wheeling.

http://www.avianon.net/tactics/fanatics.php#l_wheel

Still a very cheesy move; I would never do it.

Nighthawke
08-01-2010, 22:38
no you cant do that at all :P it states in the rule book that your unit counts as moving as far as the edge model and can only move its max movement

Urgat
09-01-2010, 17:24
no you cant do that at all :P it states in the rule book that your unit counts as moving as far as the edge model and can only move its max movement

Yes, and if you make the ranks 1 wide, you can make a veeeeeeeeeery long wheel before reaching the 8" for marching, right (you can probably have the whole unit turn on itself a few times, try it, it might even take off :p)? It's the edge model of the front rank, the back model can run 72" inches if you want.
It's not one rank of x gobs, it's x ranks of 1 gob. You deploy the unit facing one side of the bettlefiel instead of facing the enemy, in front of your troops, and hop!
Thanks god, it only takes a single rock in the middle of the battlefield to prevent that idiotic tactic from being used.

Nighthawke
09-01-2010, 18:10
ohh sorry i get you now :) so they would be facing the side of the board not the enemy? :)

AtmaTheWanderer
09-01-2010, 18:26
Thanks god, it only takes a single rock in the middle of the battlefield to prevent that idiotic tactic from being used.

Read the rules clarifications. models are not allowed to move more then double thier movement rate during a change formation or wheel - period. Double movement is the model running as "fast as possible".

It also says in the rules clarifications that I am formally allowed to chastise you for being a terrible player and bad sport. BAD!

^--- This is real. I'm actually supposed to do this.

Urgat
10-01-2010, 11:27
I don't want to check it out so i'll believe you, but then every WFB players should be chastisized, because everybody wheels measuring from the front rank, and the moment you do even a 1mm wheel at full movement, the minis in the back will move more than their normal movement rate.

And I think that section (rules clarification) is not in my BFSP rulebook, btw, so don't blame me for not knowing that :p

Cragum
10-01-2010, 12:59
Now i played O&Gs for quite a while before i got heavily into my skaven. And say you can make an evil list but, dont expect it to always work. But that tbh is the name of the game aint it really, trust what the heck you can roll whats in your hand and hope its good!

I find goblins as weak as they are can help you in your time of need, spear chukkas and them go hand in hand when the unit is filled with fanatics. The fanatics help distrubt the enemies stronger but usually less armoured units what even when covered in heavy armour are gonna be skittles for them fanatics.

So either way that enemy either takes a detour around your units to evade fanatics what usually doesnt still work :evilgrin: and then face the spearchukka redux on either side of the units waiting to moe them down...

Or they head at the unit hoping for heaven that they dont get knocked out before they get close. But then yet again even when the unit hits your goblins i guess will make them run. You then pelt the remaining unit with spear chukkas and probably make them run away aswell!

If you want something good with fanatics what works a treat, mind games and then placing them just in the 'ring'

keep three units of NG with Fs in a kind of arc shape but close by but not to run into each other.then when enemies think they can get a good amount here with there strong unit by destroying three they actually release usually about 8 or 9 fanatics while you probably lose one unit of night goblins.

PLus i always say they night goblins arent made to fight bar if fighting means throwing a Fanatic, so i usually minimize my units to 25 at most so not to waste points on other things.

Its all untrustworthy...

BUT ITS FUNNY!:skull:

sugarwookie
10-01-2010, 18:58
Hey Storak,

Sounds like you're in my boat. I love OnG's and would love to make a list that won't get eaten alive by the codex creepers (VC n DE) I don't mind losing, but I want a shot at the top with whatever I play. I've been trying really hard to come up with some tactics that might help this endeavor.
First, I would suggest you search for the "Slingshot" tactic used by players with fanatics. It guarantees they'll hit and in a big way most of the time (Maybe someone could chime in on this so he doesn't have to search as I don't know enough to fully explain it) It works basically by keeping a disposable unit in front of your NG's with Fanatics.
The spear chuckas are amazing and will earn their points. With that many, you have to remember the field is going to be filled with troops, so hopefully you'll have hills, otherwise it can be an issue.I would take four
Squig Hoppas!!! Wow! I love them, they really are amazing. Good against a lot of your opponents beefy units. They're good against shooting too, but you can add to that by screening them with a cheap disposable unit of wolf riders, or spiders.
Giants are great, and as a previous poster added, if they focus on them, they're allowing something else to get closer.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
10-01-2010, 20:09
Beardy ong don't exist, but I had some nice results with this list

Goblin lv4, wolf, 5+wardsave and scroll
Night goblin lv2, itty, scroll
Goblin big boss, chariot, light armour, enchanted shield, martog's best basha
Goblin big boss, chariot, light armour, shield, sword of might

3*21 Night goblins with short bows, musician, 3 fanatic's
4*5 Fast cavalry, musician, spears, short bows( what sort fast cav is up to you I take 2 spiders and 2 wolves)

10 Squiq hoppers
Wolf chariot, extra crew ( I will soon try a rock lobber instead of this chariot)
4 Spear chukka's

Doomdiver
Giant

the list has one against dragon and 2 hydra build and against thirster +12 flamers, and in my most recent game I got a draw in my favor against war altar and 2 steam tanks

Cheers

cob
12-01-2010, 00:36
Managed to qualify for the UKGT final this year in heat 2 using an o+g army. I'd say its hard but compared to the other books its nothing special. I used roughly:

Orc Warboss, Wyvern, shagas, killing blow, zorga
Black orc BSB, waagh banner, chariot
goblin big boss, chariot
goblin shaman, 2 scrolls, chariot

20 orcs, shields, mus
20 orcs, mus
20 n gobbos, 2 fanatics
20 n gobbos
3x5 wolf riders
2x2 snotlings

4 bolt throwers
rock lobba
boar chariot

2 doomdivers.

4 chariots, 7 war machines, wyvern and some crap to hold quarters/distract/die.

I think if I was to take it again, id drop a fanatics, boar chariot in special slot, shields from orcs and 1 unit of wolf riders, and upgrade the goblin bigboss on a chariot to BO guy in a chariot with best basha, 2 more bolt throwers, and perhaps upgrade the warboss to black orc with enchanted shield.

It won't beat the hardest armies around, especially VC/heavy magic daemons.

sugarwookie
12-01-2010, 01:45
Hey Cob, I'm curious as to how the Wyvern BO worked for you? That new model is gorgeous and I'm pondering a list built around it, any thoughts and tactics you might be able to share?

cob
12-01-2010, 03:07
Sure...well the combination I used on him is very fragile, only an orc warboss with a 5+ save and no ward. I probably wouldn't use that again, get at least a BO with enchanted shield so fireballs don't kill ya =P. Toughness 5 is very nice though.

Overall the wyvern isn't that great but its the only thing O+G have which can charge potentially 20+ inches a turn without magic. It's also really the only thing bar Grimgor who can go toe to toe with big nasties. It controls a vast portion of the board and terror is always nice. He was also a good points denial if I felt the game was close...hiding 1/4 of your army behind a wood is rather unorcy but is the way to win when you need to hold a small lead and hes on 1 wound lol =P.

My reasoning with the item loadout was that he was always going to be a glass cannon. Shagas, high weapon skill and killing blow makes a mess of nearly any US2 or US1 lord/hero. Regularly vs daemons, dark elfs or VC characters like to bunch up and support each other which is perfect for me. Zorga is just there for 5 points and good vs hydras I guess. Normally he would be around 3-4 characters, so have 7/8 str 8 or so attacks plus 3 str 6 from wyvern all at good weapon skill.

The most obvious tactic is the fly behind a hill, waagh onto it and charge...everyone knows about it and those who don't get punished extremely badly =D. However it's not really the waagh charge that is really amazing its just the potential threat and the ability to keep your opponent pinned back while the war machines hammer them and gives the chariots a chance to get into some good positions.